an FYI about Bards in the Elder Scrolls universe

Iccotak

EDIT: No I don't think there is a chance of anything Bard related coming out this year and this thread doesn't have anything to specifically do with Skyrim. This post is in response to various Bard discussion that I have seen that has left the impression that people don't exactly understand the Bards in TES franchise So the goal is to hopefully temper expectations

I know alot of people don't want to hear this but I see enough requests for a "Bard class" or "skill line" that I think some air should get cleared up.

Elder Scrolls is not 5E D&D. Bards don't perform spells with songs. Bards are storytellers & songwriters, that's it. If they want combat & magic then they have to learn other skills. Unlike D&D, Bards are nothing special in TES and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

You can already act the part of a bard in Elder Scrolls. Type /lute, /drums, /flute, etc. to play an instrument - there you're a Bard.

- In Skyrim, Bards were just musicians that traveled and collected stories. The Bards college story was about cultural history - not gaining a new power.
- In Oblivion, Bards as a class was basically a Rogue but with a focus on illusion and the social system in the game.

If any skill lines were to be added; alteration & illusion are far more likely than Bard.
There are more lore appropriate possibilities for a class that also would have more utilization than a bard in ESO.
Something that uses - illusion, alteration, and conjuration that is if ZOS wasn't possibly using those for Spellcrafting.
(we'll see at Twitch)
Also the guilds already cover the dialogue options (intimidate, Persuade, Bribery) so I don't see anything a Bard could offer mechanically.
EDIT: basically what I am saying, is that anything a Bard was traditionally known to be able to provide is already covered by various other skill lines & abilities in ESO

On the other hand - there could be plenty of Bard cosmetics in the Crown store. Like when ZOS added the Argonian instrument.

I think this might make it more clear for some people as to why a Bard class or skill line most likely won't be a thing.
The niche role of a bard would fit more in an MMO like World of Warcraft.

BUT If the Skyrim Twitch presentation proves me wrong then feel free to rub it in my face.

TheShadowScout

Iccotak wrote: »

...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?

But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.

BUT!

It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

Aethereal'Golden

I would be glad if you could become a "bard" just to take screenshots with monsters and enemies. Make them not hostile for a while. Before they saw you anyway.

Lord_Hypnos

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

TheShadowScout

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

Please do not bring that trash into this game.

I say again:

TheShadowScout wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard

...its been part of the elder scrolls universe since... the beginning!
So, it -does- belong here.

And bards -have- been a staple archetype for fantasy roleplaying for way longer then TES lore...

How much effective it ought to be for PvP zerging... well... that is a different question. But then, the game here is hardly all PvP, is it now? And in any case, it IS a commonly accepted notion that "bards" weapon-swap their lute for a sword, dagger or such when the fighting actualyl comes to their suede doublets, right?

But all of the arguments against "bards" -would- suggest they should be made as guild skill line, NOT as class. Which would suit me fine, as new classes are evil anyhow...

VaranisArano

I'd like a Bard College questline.

The one we got in Skyrim was rather abrupt and lacking.
"Please find my lost lute!"
"Please find my lost drum!"
"Please find my lost flute!"
"Please find our lost ballad...and then play Mad Libs with it so we can score a sweet fundraising opportunity with the Jarl!"

Chaos2088

The Bard has been a class in previous Elder scrolls games and in this genre of gaming a Bard is one of the classic archetypes, so I can see it being added to ESO at some point.

If you think its going to be just flutey music and running around giving just buffs, then yeah that does sound lame.

But what if Zos put a really cool spin on it: A very strong healer/buff line, maybe they have powers of sonic booms with there voice, maybe powers like a bansee. Masters of Illusion magic who knows.

This is an mmo more classes are incoming at some point, if you don't want to play it....it is very simple. Do not play.

Iccotak

@TheShadowScout

Bards are part of Elder Scrolls history but not like D&D, as you've pointed out Bards are going to use actual weapons instead of their instruments in battle.
Now TBF in the Assault PvP skill line there is a horn ability that supports your group.
EDIT: which is relevant to the War theme of PvP - blowing a horn before battle.

So this goes back to my earlier point about overlap, redundancy, and relevancy.
Does a Bard skill line overlap with any already pre-existing skill lines?
if it is a plausible that doesn't mean that the Bard is the appropriate theme for that skill line.

What do I mean by that? Well while looking over your proposed Bardic skill line I found that an illusion or alteration theme would be more appropriate for most, if not all, of these abilities.
Here are notable examples

Note: I am referencing this Proposed Skill line that TheShadowScout designed - which they linked on this thread and I have copy/pasted into the box.

• Ode to the Fearless Fighter (critical chance and movement buff)
- Morph1: Ode to the Glorious Gladiator (+ weapon damage & stamina regeneration buff)
- Morph2: Ode to the Mighty Mage (+spell damage & magicka regeneration buff)

• Shieldwall Melody (physical defense & heath regeneration buff)
- Morph1: Ironclad Melody (+ critical resistance)
- Morph2: Wardcaster Melody (+spell resistance)

• Spiritbreakers Song (debuff enemy weapon damage)
- Morph1: Soulbreakers Song (+debuff enemy resistance)
- Morph2: Cursebreakers Song (+debuff enemy spells)

• Adventurers Hymn (all XP gain buff)
- Morph1: Warmongers Hymn (+ PvP currency gain buff – AP, TV-stones…)
- Morph2: Marauders Hymn (+ gold & item drop chance buff)

Ultimate: Oppresive Operah (snare all enemies in area)
- Morph1: Somnatic Symphony (+paralyze chance every second in area, broken by any damage)
- Morph2: Harrowing Harmony (+miss chance for all attacks)

Passives:
• Silver Tongue: can do "Charm" persuasive option on vendors to get better deals
• Enchanting Melody: Spellsong effects linger for a while after song ends / area left
• Slippery Songster: small chance to dodge attacks while musical instrument is active
• Golden Voice: increase bardic song area
• Tavern Ministrel: additional daily bardic guild missions become available in taverns

Reviewed examples
- The Shieldwall ability that can provide either critical resistance or spell resistance might as well be an Alteration spell, something that any magic user studies. So why the Bard theme?

- "Adventures Hym" which awards the player with greater chance of obtaining riches (gold, currency, gear, etc) might be more appropriate as "Transmute" - an ability in the school of Alteration. The music theme isn't necessary.

- The Ultimate Morph that has a paralyze effect could just as easily be an Alteration spell because Paralyzation magic is part of the school of Alteration.
The morph that applies a "miss chance" effect on enemies is basically an illusion ability.

The problems with this Bardic Guild skill line are the following:
1. None of those abilities & spells have anything to do with a Bard's skill set which in Elder Scrolls is largely about song & stories.
2. It cannibalizes what would be more appropriate as an Alteration skill line - something that better fits a magic user in the Elder Scrolls setting rather than music themed abilities.
3. Not all Players might be pleased if they would have to use bardic themed abilities if they wanted to be able to cast what are essentially Alteration & illusion spells, which have nothing to do with music.

the dialogue passive that allowed the player to barter is something that could simply be added to the Thieves Guild skill line.

@Chaos2088
One could say that you can just ignore a class if you don't want to play it. However, if a class or skill line is going to cannibalize Alteration just so then it can fit a bard aesthetic then that is a no go for me.
The Bard as a whole new class just would not work because it overlaps way too much of the nightblade skill set - illusion in particular.
Bards are an archtype. However, what a bard in Elder Scrolls can do is wildly different to what a Bard in D&D can do. Comparison aside, the Bard is simply more suited for a Single Player RPG like ES I-V.

The Barbarian, Ranger, Thief, Wizard, are also all archtypes that have been in previous ES games but a major point behind the class system in ESO is that they all have potential to fill different roles/archtypes. I would say that a Bard class is more suited for an MMO like WoW because each class in that game has a designated role.

Kel

I kind of feel like healers in ESO already fit the bard class.

Your main job is to buff allies and do minor damage while healing.
In a lot of cases, mostly in normal dungeons and even some vets, healing is actually third in priority.

So, the healing role already feels like bard. You can sing "Sway as we Kiss" if it makes you feel better, but healers main job seems to be a buff role. How is this not already what a bard does?

Valykc

Kel wrote: »

I kind of feel like healers in ESO already fit the bard class.

Your main job is to buff allies and do minor damage while healing.
In a lot of cases, mostly in normal dungeons and even some vets, healing is actually third in priority.

So, the healing role already feels like bard. You can sing "Sway as we Kiss" if it makes you feel better, but healers main job seems to be a buff role. How is this not already what a bard does?

Lay down them HoTs then pull out your lute.

POWER FANTASY!

snoozy

your arguments are nice and all but i don't care, i really wanna play a bard. preferably as a class and not just a skill line. not just damn emotes. let me run around playing my instruments and performing my songs on the battlefield
there is still hope

Nemesis7884

bards are more of an elder scrolls class than dragon knights or warden ;-). But yeah, classes in TES games have always only been recommendations for skill compositions...and yeah it would have been better to create eso from the ground up without classes and purely skill based... but here we are.

Chaos2088

snoozy wrote: »

your arguments are nice and all but i don't care, i really wanna play a bard. preferably as a class and not just a skill line. not just damn emotes. let me run around playing my instruments and performing my songs on the battlefield
there is still hope

Agree

Starlock

Just a reminder about the power of storytellers and songwriters in the Elder Scrolls Universe:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Spinners

If you've ever done some of the main quests in this game relating to the power of the Spinners, what they do is profoundly magical.

Xvorg

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

Monks in TES have been always lorewise friendly. In fact at least in TES III there were a lot of religious factions (though only 2 joinable and a third one you were joined as the game progressed)

Xvorg

snoozy wrote: »

your arguments are nice and all but i don't care, i really wanna play a bard. preferably as a class and not just a skill line. not just damn emotes. let me run around playing my instruments and performing my songs on the battlefield
there is still hope

each time ZoS introduces a new class, a dozen of little guars die near Sadrith Mora.

No more classes, please

Iccotak

@Starlock
That example just proves my point - they are entertainers who's powers are primarily illusion magic.
That is very niche and wouldn't fill an entire class.
So adding an illusion skill line would make sense and making it "bard" theme would be unnecessary as it would not serve any function to the abilities.

idk

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?

But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.

BUT!

It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

Great post and links to actually back it up. Glad you cleared things up for the OP so they can copy and past your comments over what they originally said.

Clearly they do engage in combat and this is not D&D so they should not be like a D&D class.

Starlock

Iccotak wrote: »

That example just proves my point - they are entertainers who's powers are primarily illusion magic.
That is very niche and wouldn't fill an entire class.
So adding an illusion skill line would make sense and making it "bard" theme would be unnecessary as it would not serve any function to the abilities.

I'm not surprised you interpret this example as proving your point. It can be interpreted in either direction, but you'll spin the tale you want to spin about it.

snoozy

Xvorg wrote: »

snoozy wrote: »

your arguments are nice and all but i don't care, i really wanna play a bard. preferably as a class and not just a skill line. not just damn emotes. let me run around playing my instruments and performing my songs on the battlefield
there is still hope

each time ZoS introduces a new class, a dozen of little guars die near Sadrith Mora.

No more classes, please

a bit of poultry is a small price to pay for more classes

exeeter702

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

D&d and warcraft fiction are trash now?

PopotoSalad

Maybe we could get "songwriting" as a crafting skill?

Robo_Hobo

Nightblades as a class were just rogues that casted normal magic in every TES game before ESO

So saying Bards can't work as a class in ESO because they were "just a rogue but with a focus on illusion and the social system in the game" doesn't work

Bards have been a TES class since as far back as TES1: Arena (first class I played in that game too)

Sure there's no mystical bard-specific spells like there are in DnD, but neither were there for Nightblade and Sorcerer, 2 other classes that were in-game since Arena, and the one unique thing about the Sorcerer class from Arena and Daggerfall doesn't even apply to the Sorcerer class in ESO (no magic Regen), so ESO has a history of making classes unique and set apart from their previous TES iterations.

Rave the Histborn

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?

But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.

BUT!

It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.

Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game

idk

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?

But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.

BUT!

It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.

Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game

OP is correct that this is not D&D but beyond that they are just giving their opinion and one that seem to be based only on their opinion since those links do show bards as a combat class. The fact it is different than D&D is meaningless.

Maybe OP can provide some real info to back their claim.

VaranisArano

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

Gonna have to knock you on the Monk class thing. Just because Skyrim didn't have an effective Hand-to-Hand skill line doesn't mean that Morrowind and Oblivion didn't. Even though Skyrim downgraded it massively from a full skill line, it still had the Gloves of the Pugilist and perks that supported unarmed combat.

Plus we've just been exploring Elsweyr, which lorewise has tons of martial monks who fit very nicely into the D&D style Monk class.

Not ridiculous at all, assuming you've played more TES games than just Skyrim.

For that matter, Tamriel is a fantasy RPG that came out of the developers' interest in pen-and-paper RPG games. Did you really expect there wouldn't be substantial influence from D&D lurking in every nook and cranny?

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

Gonna have to knock you on the Monk class thing. Just because Skyrim didn't have an effective Hand-to-Hand skill line doesn't mean that Morrowind and Oblivion didn't. Even though Skyrim downgraded it massively from a full skill line, it still had the Gloves of the Pugilist and perks that supported unarmed combat.

Plus we've just been exploring Elsweyr, which lorewise has tons of martial monks who fit very nicely into the D&D style Monk class.

Not ridiculous at all, assuming you've played more TES games than just Skyrim.

For that matter, Tamriel is a fantasy RPG that came out of the developers' interest in pen-and-paper RPG games. Did you really expect there wouldn't be substantial influence from D&D lurking in every nook and cranny?

While the rest of the post is read worthy, this last two sentences are probably the best in this thread outside of providing the links that show we did have bard classes in some TES games.

redgreensunset

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lord_Hypnos wrote: »

" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "

Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.

If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.

Gonna have to knock you on the Monk class thing. Just because Skyrim didn't have an effective Hand-to-Hand skill line doesn't mean that Morrowind and Oblivion didn't. Even though Skyrim downgraded it massively from a full skill line, it still had the Gloves of the Pugilist and perks that supported unarmed combat.

Plus we've just been exploring Elsweyr, which lorewise has tons of martial monks who fit very nicely into the D&D style Monk class.

Not ridiculous at all, assuming you've played more TES games than just Skyrim.

For that matter, Tamriel is a fantasy RPG that came out of the developers' interest in pen-and-paper RPG games. Did you really expect there wouldn't be substantial influence from D&D lurking in every nook and cranny?

Yeah that fire bending monk WB in Southern Elsweyr and all his adepts would like a word about monks not fitting lore or the world. Plus if they ever give Akavir any real attention I'm going to have to fight people on it for real, considering that continents heavy East Asian vibes.

Unseelie

I can genuinely say that in all of my time in mmos I have never seen someone put so much effort into trying to *** on something people are wanting or looking into.
Bravo.
For the record lore is malleable , it is the wonderful thing about using a lore system like this. Game designers can do what they want.

Iskiab

So the argument is bards don’t fit the ESO lore? Who cares, change the ESO lore.

Unseelie

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?

But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.

BUT!

It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.

Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game

Every class in this game you can say the same for. Every class is a set of variables along with a couple themed skill lines.
"You could use emotes ... blah blah"
Did a bard kill your family and kick your dog or something?