an FYI about Bards in the Elder Scrolls universe

TheShadowScout

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Psijics are still a major faction in the TES/ESO universe in ALL THE GAMES. It doesn't matter if they're exclusive they're still major players.

That is once again completely untrue.
Yes, the Psijics are -known-, in one form or another.
But "major players"???
If "major players" for you means "sitting at home and holding discussion parties while hiding from the world"... well... then you may need to re-examine your definitions.

Yes, the psijics are around, kind of as an "exclusive club" that once was the best place for mages to gather, butthose glory days are long since behind them, and most other "major players" are more likely to view them with a varying degree of suspicion and resentment.
Play the Summerset mainstory if you need a reminder of that.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ok so they had a founding? That doesn't mean they're a major guild, it means they had to officially be formed by a king and you're saying the rat catchers and prositutes are on par with the Mages and Fighters guilds. Sorry buddy, they're not and neither is the bards.

Sorry, but it still means they were "major" enough to be -recognized- by the empire, which at that time was a bit more widespread then the ESO-era remains. Note that the psijics you so adore were not, due to being in hiding.

So, basically its the difference between a officially ackonledged organization, and a informal or underground organization. The mentioned guilds are the ones you find in the yellow pages (well, the tamriel-tastic equivalent) while the rest... anre criminal organizations like TG and DB, and private clubs like the Psijics.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Psijics were in hiding because they were Tamriel's most powerful mages and they hid for a reason.

That reason being licking their wounds in safety, yeah, we know, its in the Summerset story. And while they -once- were the most powerful mages... time has passed on, and left them behind.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

You can't link wikipedia articles arbitrarily and you look dumb when you use it because it shows you don't play the game or don't understand the systems.

I only link those I need to. And if you think -your- opinion about what a "profession" beats the "definition of the word"... then you show you don't understand a LOT more then the game or its systems.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

You can tell because you're not even reading the stuff you quote

I read it well enough. Again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_horn

The blowing horn or winding horn is a sound device that is usually made of or shaped like an animal horn, arranged to blow from a hole in the pointed end of it. This rudimentary device had a variety of functions in many cultures, in most cases reducing its scope to exhibiting, celebratory or group identification purposes (signal instrument).

...and that last link leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_instrument

A signal instrument is a musical instrument which is not only used for music as such, but also fit to give sound signals as a form of auditive communication, usually in the open air.

So, there you have it. A War horn (aka blowing horn) is a signal instrument, which is a musical instument that can also be used for signalling.
That is the official word from wikipadia, the very link YOU threw at me first. Not my fault when it upon closer examination does support my point and not yours. Maybe if you had read it properly from the start...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

It's not magic, it's ultimate.

Go on, explain how all those effects fuelled by "ultimate" as a resource are not magic in any definition of the sense.
Explain the non-magical reasoning behind sprouting dragon wings for a moment, or conjuring an ice storm, or summoning an storm atronatch, or a healing area, or any of it!

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

You're also leaving out the Ultimates that are just regular attacks or shield blocks.

Show me some.
Shield Wall? How is blocking -everything- at no cost and no matter what a "regular shield block"??? Sounds pretty magical to me.
Berserker Blow? A blow that simply ignores all armor? Sounds also rather magical to me.
Lacerate? Slashing the foes... AND healing yourself at the same time? Healing like that definitely sounds like something of a a magical effect to me...
Rapid Fire? Magicking up arrows AND being immune to any disabling effects? Once again, sounds like there is magic involved...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I understand that your brain can't really understand anything beyond "it's magic" but there's more to this game than that.

Funny, YOU are the one who went all like...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

No.
Only magic is in TES.
No.

...sounds like its your brain that stops at the "its magic" point, huh?

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

It is established in the lore that they were technologically superior and didn't really engage much with magic/gods.

Puh-leeze, READ the lore.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer
Yes, Dwemer were technologically superior. Yes they didn't really have much use for "gods". But they were -also- arvid students of the arcane, and worked it into their technology.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

If you actually knew anything about the games you'd know that kinda their thing and also a big reason why they don't exist anymore.

Oh?
The reason they don't exist anymore is... because its all technology and they didn't mess with magic?
I keep wondering how you could possibly come to that sort of conclusion from the fact that they tried to utilize a divine artifact, messed up and -magically- all went "poof" from one moment to the next!
...
But I am sure your "technological" explaination would be worth a laugh or two...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ummm sorcerors have nothing to do with Daedric and getting magical powers from them at all.

Just when I think the comments cannot get any dumber...
Sorcerors.
Nothing to do with daedric.
While having a Whole Skill Line Called "DAEDRIC SUMMONING"!!!
Where they -get this- summon daedra to do their bidding, case daedric curses and all that.

Also, FYI, traditionally a "Sorceror" is a magician who derives their power from supernatural or occult otherworldly entities, as distinguished from other types that tap into other power sources, be they nature (Druid, Shaman, etc) or death (Necromancer) or elemental forces... etc.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Here's a list and the history of magic. Guess what isn't there? (music)

Try this one: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tonal_Architecture
Yes, its the dwemer stuff.
But we -also- know they are not the only ones. There have been other instances where you need to use some sort of sound-shaping to make something happen. Dwemer tonal locks might have been the best, but the sixth house also can lock a door with some bells. and so on.

Just saying, the -concept- of "manipulation of sound to alter reality" is there. And that concept... is magic by any other name.

Does that mean there -has- to be "bardic magic"?
Nah - that one is up to the developers.
But it means there -could- be.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I mean if you don't have bronze swords and it is a fantasty game it could be because there isn't bronze in that universe and they'd have to skip it...

...which actually happened in some regions in africa.

But that does NOT in the least mean there have been no bronze swords slesewhere.

Also, "bronze" is an alloy of tin and copper, and it would be rather difficult to imagine a world where they have iron and not those, considering the formation of planets and all that.

It usually is not a thing in fantasy worlds because those are generally set in a -medieval- tech level, for all the neat things that come with that. And by that period people usually moved on from "bronze" for weapons for a thousand years or two... and of course, fantasy settings often like to slow tech development to make for more time to spread their history over, so in such constructs, it would well have been many thousands of years since bronze as weapon material. Still doesn't mean that at some point in the merethic era they did indeed use bronze weapons.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

...so yeah actually it kinda does show they never existed in a game like ESO.

That one is technically correct, if misleading.
Yes, in one -game- there are only those weapon materials the developers add to it. be it steel, mythril, ebony or whatever fits their background.
Doesn't mean the (made up) -history- of their world didn't have something else too that was eclipsed by newer, better materials and discarded long ago... even if noone really bothered -mentioning- it, its completely -impossible- to prove its non-existence until and unless the developers go straight out and say "this never existed in our world". (And even then they sometimes retcon that when a new licenseholder wants to sell a new idea)

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I understand what you keep saying but you don't understand that there are games that go beyond ESO and none of them have this magic in them. Musical magic doesn't exist in the 1st era or the 4th era so for it to suddenly spring up and then be instantly for gotten makes no sense.

Spring up then be forgotten? Nah.
IF it was added, it would be a system that "has been around for ages", but will soon become obsolete as the "schools of magic" system becomes established in the centuries after ESO time, which then lets use everyone the same effects without having to learn how to play a instrument (you do know how much practice that takes)

Much like there are a lot of "arts" that have become obsolete in our time, and are at best revived by some students of history. Or how many people do you know that can build a mongol-style composite bow these days? When its so much easier to buy better in the sporting store around the corner...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

So the Pisjics are so incredibly powerful that even not being on the plan of Tamriel people still talk about them and their feats and you're trying to compare it to people that are common in every Inn and village and do nothing noteworthy besides sing about things that happened that they had no part in. They also never went away they still exist and are active just more secretive.

They did "go away" in that they removed their island from Tamriel.

And I am referring to the "frequency in everyday life" thing. The Psijics are a myth in the minds of many in tamriel of the mid-second era, not seen for centuries, and a threat in the minds of the few that know they are still around, since they exist beyond their control, and only those "in the club" know the truth, and they ain't tellin (until the events of ESO:Summerset that is)
Not exactly something very many people have personal contact with, right?

Bards on the other hand? We quested through one of their schools in the rift, and we know there is another in solitude. They are common enough that even the empire added them to their guild rolls. Sure, they will never be as important as the mages guild or fighters guild... but they are prominent enough to be included in the list every imperial bureocrat would point to if you asked them what guilds there are.

And that is all I am saying, that IF the developers wanted to do something with this, they -could-! But they just as well could merely use any bardic guild as background setting without any skill lines at all just like they did with "Cyrodillic Collections" - the lore supports both approaches, and that is all I am saying.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I mean except Jorunn is a 1 off and a king who'd have had the resources and lots of teachers around him from birth. So I mean yeah you're right, barring nobility, tons of money, and being raised with fighting experience there is nothing stopping bards from adventuring around.

Thats pretty silly. Saying only those with noble parents, tons of money and all that can learn "adventurering" and some other not-so-adventurous profession.
Me, I say all it takes is for them to make the effort, much like they could learn mages guild skills despite being a fighter, or thief skills despite being a mage, or whatever else they can come up with!

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

You keep saying muscial magic but it doesn't exist.

Does too.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tonal_Architecture
And "War Horn", and several other questings where they use music to do something magical.

The precedent is there.

If they WANT to do something more with it or not... THAT is up to the developers.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Stop it.

You don't get to tell me what to do!
But... well... I said my piece, and its pretty obvious that I will never convince you, so... yeah, lets do exactly that. Stop the fruitless argument, and just agree to disagree!

Rave the Histborn

That is once again completely untrue.
Yes, the Psijics are -known-, in one form or another.
But "major players"???
If "major players" for you means "sitting at home and holding discussion parties while hiding from the world"... well... then you may need to re-examine your definitions.

Yes, the psijics are around, kind of as an "exclusive club" that once was the best place for mages to gather, butthose glory days are long since behind them, and most other "major players" are more likely to view them with a varying degree of suspicion and resentment.
Play the Summerset mainstory if you need a reminder of that.

You mean the story where they're major players. Sorry dude, even after they've exiled themselves from most of everyday Tamrielic life there are still more stories and they hold more influence than the bards ever have or will.

Sorry, but it still means they were "major" enough to be -recognized- by the empire, which at that time was a bit more widespread then the ESO-era remains. Note that the psijics you so adore were not, due to being in hiding.

So, basically its the difference between a officially ackonledged organization, and a informal or underground organization. The mentioned guilds are the ones you find in the yellow pages (well, the tamriel-tastic equivalent) while the rest... anre criminal organizations like TG and DB, and private clubs like the Psijics.

That doesn't mean they were "major" in anyway, it means they had to be officially sanctioned by the Empire to operate. So yeah, obviously they have a founding, that's like a small business having a starting date. Also the Psijics founded themselves (because they are major players) they didn't need the Empire for that. It also doesn't matter whether they were criminal organizations THEY ARE STILL MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS OF POWER IN TAMRIEL. The Bards are not.

That reason being licking their wounds in safety, yeah, we know, its in the Summerset story. And while they -once- were the most powerful mages... time has passed on, and left them behind.

FFS please go read the lore. They are still the most powerful mages they just choose not to interfere most of the time and Artateum periodically blinks in and out of pockets of reality. Their influence weins (who'd have thought disappearing for hundreds of years does that) but they are still known and well regarded and sought out by kings. BARDS ARE NOT THEY ARE COMMONERS.

I only link those I need to. And if you think -your- opinion about what a "profession" beats the "definition of the word"... then you show you don't understand a LOT more then the game or its systems.

You're comparing the definition of an IRL profession to an MMO universe that wouldn't have a world set out like the real world. It's insane that you're actually trying to compare an MMO profession to having a job irl.

Go on, explain how all those effects fuelled by "ultimate" as a resource are not magic in any definition of the sense.

Sure, it's real easy. This is a video game, and to keep in line with the MMO genre most games have an ultimate attack skill. It isn't magic because if it was magic they would just put it under the magic resources. It's not that hard to understand.

Show me some.
Shield Wall? How is blocking -everything- at no cost and no matter what a "regular shield block"??? Sounds pretty magical to me.
Berserker Blow? A blow that simply ignores all armor? Sounds also rather magical to me.
Lacerate? Slashing the foes... AND healing yourself at the same time? Healing like that definitely sounds like something of a a magical effect to me...
Rapid Fire? Magicking up arrows AND being immune to any disabling effects? Once again, sounds like there is magic involved...

Jesus fing christ, it's almost like all of these things you're bringing up are a mix of physical (STAMINA) and magic at the same time. It's almost like they can't be both so they had to classify it as it's own thing because this isn't a standard TES game and it's got an MMO combat system. Dude, you can't seem to grasp this but if it's an Ult it can have some "magical" effects to it but it is no magic.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I understand that your brain can't really understand anything beyond "it's magic" but there's more to this game than that.
Funny, YOU are the one who went all like...
Rave the Histborn wrote: »
No.
Only magic is in TES.
No.
...sounds like its your brain that stops at the "its magic" point, huh? ;)

It did because I linked you the types of magic in TES/ESO and yours isn't included and your response is "no it's still magic." It's just hard to fathom your though process.

Puh-leeze, READ the lore.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer
Yes, Dwemer were technologically superior. Yes they didn't really have much use for "gods". But they were -also- arvid students of the arcane, and worked it into their technology.


Their society consisted of free-thinking yet reclusive clans devoted to the secrets of science, engineering, and the arcane until they mysteriously disappeared
ar·cane
/ärˈkān/
adjective
understood by few; mysterious or secret.
"modern math and its arcane notation"

Please just stop

While having a Whole Skill Line Called "DAEDRIC SUMMONING"!!!
Where they -get this- summon daedra to do their bidding, case daedric curses and all that.

Let me refresh you on what you said "Actually... deadric princes are known to lend out their power now and then. We have a whole class in eso built on that, they are called sorcerors. Nothing in the lore to stop any bards from making contracts with daedra as well..."

Sorcs aren't build on having Daedric magic granted to them by daedra, they are magic users that summon Daedra against their will. There's plenty in the lore stopping bards though, they wouldn't have the means or know how to summon them and there'd be no reason for a Prince to contact one.

Try this one: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tonal_Architecture
Yes, its the dwemer stuff.
But we -also- know they are not the only ones. There have been other instances where you need to use some sort of sound-shaping to make something happen. Dwemer tonal locks might have been the best, but the sixth house also can lock a door with some bells. and so on.

Just saying, the -concept- of "manipulation of sound to alter reality" is there. And that concept... is magic by any other name.

The Sixth house technology is all Dwemer technology so no, there have not been other instances. No, the concept of manipulation of sound to alter reality isn't magic. You can't just label anything you want magic. They use technology to do it and you can't prove they used magic in anyway. Since it can be found and is able to be turned on and works it isn't fueled by magic in anyway. There aren't any dwemer around to power it that still exist if it did need it.

That one is technically correct, if misleading.

No, it's correct, it's only misleading when you read the rest of your rambling attempt to subvert that.

Spring up then be forgotten? Nah.
IF it was added, it would be a system that "has been around for ages", but will soon become obsolete as the "schools of magic" system becomes established in the centuries after ESO time, which then lets use everyone the same effects without having to learn how to play a instrument (you do know how much practice that takes)

So it wouldn't spring up, you'd retcon the entire lore for a *** system that becomes obsolete once people learn magic? Why would they bother learning your bard system in the first place? That makes even less sense then before.

The Psijics are a myth in the minds of many in tamriel of the mid-second era, not seen for centuries, and a threat in the minds of the few that know they are still around, since they exist beyond their control

Hmmmmmm I wonder why they would be a guild line

Bards on the other hand? We quested through one of their schools in the rift, and we know there is another in solitude. They are common enough that even the empire added them to their guild rolls. Sure, they will never be as important as the mages guild or fighters guild... but they are prominent enough to be included in the list every imperial bureocrat would point to if you asked them what guilds there are.

LOL PROMINENT????? Are you out of your mind? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

They'd be on the list because the way a guild works in medieval/fantasy times is like a labor union. The Empire wants those taxes to function and an easy way to do that was the guild system. In order to join your profession you need to become part of their Guild. This made it easy for the goverment side to regulate what goes on, collect taxes, etc. and in exchange for that you got some protections and the ability to sell your wares hassle free in cities. In order for a guild to operate you needed permission from a monarch or city official. A founding is like bragging that you have a birthday, like welcome to the club called everybody.

Thats pretty silly. Saying only those with noble parents, tons of money and all that can learn "adventurering" and some other not-so-adventurous profession.

I'm saying at the time to learn a profession you'd start really young and you'd apprentice for that job. Obviously anyone can be an adventurer but only the rich can have those people come to their residence to teach their children. Joruun being versed in fighting along with history, the arts, etc. isn't normal for most people and especially not people learning to be bards. The amount of time it takes to learn swordcraft, instruments, and stuff like that would only be something nobility would have access to if not you'd have to choose one profession and stick with it. That's why you only hear about the Skaald King and not a ton of adventures about Skaalds. I mean you'd think if their profession is history and music they'd have some songs about their own feats through the ages as bards but they don't.

"Does too.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tonal_Architecture
And "War Horn", and several other questings where they use music to do something magical."

Again there is no mention of magic anywhere in the article and you'd need technology that no longer exists in the world. There is no music magic and having a magic item is different. There is no precedent besides an imaginary one you keep trying to force.

But... well... I said my piece, and its pretty obvious that I will never convince you

It's not that I can't be convinced, you just need a grasp of the lore and some other stuff first. Your argument can't overall be "it's magic" because even in these games and that universe magic has rules that it has to follow. It's more like watching a temper tantrum about why you want something and when you get told why you can't have it you just keep going and going.

Iskiab

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Unseelie wrote: »

I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?

I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.

There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture

Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.

It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.

I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"

Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.

Yea, you’re right. I’m the type of player who never follows lore, skips all the dialogue in quests, and doesn’t want to be bothered to learn either. In other words I’m like the majority of players. What matters most is fun gameplay.

I just like being really fast and speed, plus like support roles.

People seem to be on both sides about whether it fits in the lore. I don’t know if it does, don’t care, I still want a bard skill line or class. When you first play a class in a MMO you get attached to the theme, you look for what fits that theme in a new MMO, for me that means healers, Bards, and rogues.

Stopped reading after this but you're not the majority.

You’re right. The game forums are flooded with complaints about people stopping and reading quests in groups too. /s

Bobby_V_Rockit

All this got me wondering, now, magic can be directed, focused and channeled at an enemy. But let’s say you have a magic lute, you play your doot dooting to boost everyone’s health. The problem being, you can’t pick and choose who hears it, so the enemy also hears said song and voila! Enemy health increased!

Edit: typo

Rave the Histborn

You’re right. The game forums are flooded with complaints about people stopping and reading quests in groups too. /s[/quote]

Iskiab wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Unseelie wrote: »

I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?

I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.

There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture

Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.

It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.

I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"

Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.

Yea, you’re right. I’m the type of player who never follows lore, skips all the dialogue in quests, and doesn’t want to be bothered to learn either. In other words I’m like the majority of players. What matters most is fun gameplay.

I just like being really fast and speed, plus like support roles.

People seem to be on both sides about whether it fits in the lore. I don’t know if it does, don’t care, I still want a bard skill line or class. When you first play a class in a MMO you get attached to the theme, you look for what fits that theme in a new MMO, for me that means healers, Bards, and rogues.

Stopped reading after this but you're not the majority.

You’re right. The game forums are flooded with complaints about people stopping and reading quests in groups too. /s

Didn't they increase the dungeon exit time to 2min because of stuff like that XD