Maintenance for the week of September 1:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
an FYI about Bards in the Elder Scrolls universe
-
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bard Personality when? Bard Class never please.
Bard guild line, sure I guess, as long as there is no musical magic in it (which simply does not exist in TES universe and we don't need yet another franchise betraying what it originally was).
What can instruments in TES actually do? Giving signals (Warhorn), giving a rhythm for example for marching in unison, entertain, .... inspire? But not the magical inspire and certainly not the anime-protagonist-main-theme-playing-power-up kind of inspire. Pretty much only the kind of inspiration that IRL music gives you, so creative inspiration and determination.
That's not nearly enough to fill a skill line.
So just give us a Personality that has a lute on the back at all times (except when playing) and more options to play specific music.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Unseelie✭✭✭✭I am still enjoying the limited view that some are showing because they seem to be fixated on a small portion of what a Bard is and saying Bards as adventurers do not exist or do not belong, especially when most of the Elder Scrolls game had a Bard class1 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I rather have a bard Personality, but sure I give it a go.
A bard class/skilline could be alright, if, there is no DnD styled song spells. Instead it is an Elder Scrolls bard class as they have been shown throughout the TES games. Which is a rogue type of class that uses illusion magic, speech and sneaky backstabbing.
But by going by those things we already have classes and skills that fits very close to bards.Bard Personality when? Bard Class never please.
Bard guild line, sure I guess, as long as there is no musical magic in it (which simply does not exist in TES universe and we don't need yet another franchise betraying what it originally was).
What can instruments in TES actually do? Giving signals (Warhorn), giving a rhythm for example for marching in unison, entertain, .... inspire? But not the magical inspire and certainly not the anime-protagonist-main-theme-playing-power-up kind of inspire. Pretty much only the kind of inspiration that IRL music gives you, so creative inspiration and determination.
That's not nearly enough to fill a skill line.
So just give us a Personality that has a lute on the back at all times (except when playing) and more options to play specific music.
That'd be a nice Personality.Edited by NotaDaedraWorshipper on January 15, 2020 4:29AM[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lord_Hypnos wrote: »" i shall smack you with my magical lute and stick this enchanted flute up your *where-the-sun-does-not-shine*, all whilst i squawk some, let us call it battle music, in the middle of a PVP zerg "
Imo this Bard class is as ridiculous as wanting a Monk class here... As stated before this is NOT D&D nor WöW.
Please do not bring that trash into this game.
If you want to play as those "classes" go play the games where they belong.
Monk is a legitimate class on ESO though and there's an entire lore chapter about Khajiit monks actually written. They are unique in their own ways and quite differ from the regular classes.
The bards... I have to agree. They don't fit into ESO as a class of its own.3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am still enjoying the limited view that some are showing because they seem to be fixated on a small portion of what a Bard is and saying Bards as adventurers do not exist or do not belong, especially when most of the Elder Scrolls game had a Bard class
@Unseelie
A class has a unified theme and core fantasy. With a theme in mind then you can consider what kind of abilities the class could use.Templar: Holy Healer/Warrior
Dragon Knight: Fire infused Dragon themed warrior/magic
Sorcerer: channel dark powers of the universe
Nightblade: Rogue, Thief, Assassin
Warden: Ranger/Nature, Animal companion
Necromancer: Command legions of the Undead
Examine - The Bard
- Traditional Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
- D&D definition: Bards use their artistic talents to induce magical effects.
- Daggerfall: Bards are the most versatile class, learned in many different arts. They are familiar with weaponry, magic, and the thiefly talents.
- Morrowind: Bards are loremasters and storytellers. They crave adventure for the wisdom and insight to be gained, and must depend on sword, shield, spell and enchantment to preserve them from the perils of their educational experiences.
- Oblivion: "Intelligent and personable, they prefer to accomplish tasks with their words first, and sword second."
- ESO: Bards are musicians found all across Tamriel. They are individuals who play songs on their instruments, and sometimes sing the lyrics.
Note the different definitions of bards between D&D and Elder Scrolls. They retain the core fantasy but are utilized differently. In Elder Scrolls there is an emphasis on speech skill while Music is given far less significance. We are going to get to why that is important.
Being a musician & storyteller is the core identity of a Bard. Historically and in various other forms of fiction including multiple entries in the Elder Scroll franchise. So it is not a narrow perspective of Bards or one tiny aspect of them.
It comes back to Music & Speech because that has been a core theme of the Bard fantasy, it has been since before tabletop RPGs.
Bards worked in Oblivion for the same reason the Speech skill tree worked in Skyrim, they are great for single player RPGs.
Did ESO put in a speech tree? No, they distributed the dialogue passives among the various guilds because there wasn't enough to justify investing in a whole new skill tree and there was no mechanic in game to get better at speech.
So if one were to design a class for ESO that they called a "Bard" whose thematic identity did not center on music and lacked speech abilities (both things that Bards are especially known for) then why would one call them a Bard, let alone make one, at all?
Without the musical magical abilities and/or skills in Socializing, then (from both a thematic and gameplay perspective) Bards are essentially Rogues. Which ESO already has.
What ESO did - was take all the Rogue archetypes found in the Elder Scroll franchise such as;
acrobat, agent, assassin, bard, burglar, scout, thief, etc. and put them into one class - The Nightblade
Many of the nuanced aspects of Rogue classes like the bard already exist in skill lines such as: Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc.
One could say that ESO already covers basically everything bards offer - it is just distributed throughout the rest of the game. From abilities & utility as well as cosmetics like; costumes, chat emotes, and mementos.
Perhaps even more of the nuances of those archetypes could be found in possible systems of the New Skyrim chapter.Edited by Iccotak on January 15, 2020 10:57AM2 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Don't you feel like you are contradicting yourself a bit?Bards are part of Elder Scrolls history but not like D&D, as you've pointed out Bards are going to use actual weapons instead of their instruments in battle.
Now TBF in the Assault PvP skill line there is a horn ability that supports your group.
Fist saying "In eso there is no magical music" and then reminding everyone... that there already IS one with war horn???
...while overlooking some -major- points.So this goes back to my earlier point about overlap, redundancy, and relevancy.
Does a Bard skill line overlap with any already pre-existing skill lines?
if it is a plausible that doesn't mean that the Bard is the appropriate theme for that skill line.
What do I mean by that? Well while looking over your proposed Bardic skill line I found that an illusion or alteration theme would be more appropriate for most, if not all, of these abilities.
One - there is NO "alteration" skill line in ESO, because the magic of ESO predates the "Schools of Magic" system seen in every other TES game. Just look at most of the other "spells" in ESO.
Two - the -main- point of the quoted bardic idea is not in the skill effects, but in the way they differ from all other spells - not cast like a spell for a big short term effect, but for a lesser effect, but as continuous low-cost AoE ability. Basically the difference between a shout (mage spell, short but loud), and a song (bard spellsong, long and subtle). THAT is the main idea, and the main difference I was thinking about, and something you completely seem to have overlooked in your critique...
Three - bards in eso use... wait for it... a great deal of illusion magic. And can learn other schools of magic as well. So why would it be strange that some of the spellsongs I theorize about... seem like illusion magic, or alteration magic, or... magic in general?
Oh, and the whole thing is merely a "proof of concept" collection...
I reckon, IF they make bards as a guild sized skill line like I would hope, and IF they decide to add something like music-magic, I reckon they would not follow my pattern exactly, but at most take some inspiration and then have their own thoughts and designs.
Because that was the whole point of the idea I had, as you saw I expect, with a bunch of other "new guild" ideas.So why the Bard theme?
I just thought up what I considered "possible" for "bardic magic" off the top of my head back then, to give people a concept of how such a guild -could- be. Not saying it -should- be done exactly like I brainstormed about, its simply an -example- and like I said, the real thing is in -how- the skills differ from normal spells, not in their actual effects which were just pulled out of my... memories.
And yet ALL the skills are done in a "songs" way... while the "stories" would be part of the questline. I did mention that I would hope for one more concerned with social interactions rather then fighting, yes?None of those abilities & spells have anything to do with a Bard's skill set which in Elder Scrolls is largely about song & stories.
Oh? And do you also think Nightblades cannibalize vampire abilities, or that templars should give up their healing to be collected in a "restoration" skill line?It cannibalizes what would be more appropriate as an Alteration skill line - something that better fits a magic user in the Elder Scrolls setting rather than music themed abilities.
Like I said, ESO is set -before- the "schools of magic". Thus a LOT of various skills that would be found in those skill lines in the "classic" thord and fourth era games are scattered all mover the place in classes or guild skill lines...
Also, again, its not about the effect, its in the different way how those effects are implemented.
Again, these things would be -different- from spells. So the very same effects could be done as spells as well if the people at ZOS wanted to!Not all Players might be pleased if they would have to use bardic themed abilities if they wanted to be able to cast what are essentially Alteration & illusion spells, which have nothing to do with music.
...and that is now getting really out there.the dialogue passive that allowed the player to barter is something that could simply be added to the Thieves Guild skill line.
You realize the thieves guild skill line is already done, right???
You realize that thieves are all about -stealing- from people??
You realize bards indeed are about -charming- people?
So, how did you -ever- come to the conclusion that thieves should be able to charm vendors into giving them better deals rather then bards???
Agreed.No more classes, please
New classes are evil!
Sure, some people might enjoy them... but the ones who have been playing for four years and more, who already have several alts, and face the two great vexations that come with new classes due to the fact that unlike pretty much everything else, classes -cannot- be refitted to existing characters... yes, I am once again talking about the vexation at having to play through all the too-familiar content for the sixteenth time or more to enjoy the new class because we alreeady made all those characters back in the time before new classes; and even moreso the aggrivation of seeing a new class released and thinking "Why the [censored] was that [censored] class not [censored] available back at [censored] launch, it [censored] would have made so [censored] much more [censored] sense for that [censored] main character backstory of mine! [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!"
Guild lines on the other hand... like TG; DB; or Psijic for example... can be picked up by -every- character, no matter if newly made or played since launch!
So... bring us more of those. Please?
Then you have been reading wrong, the "Bard" in the elder scrolls lore -always- was a "jack/Jill of all trades" kind of deal, mixing magic and rogue-ish abilities, with a LOT of social and speechcraft stuff.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game
A stamina build would be something a lot more specialized in the physical... warriors, thieves, etc.
The thing is, "Bard" fits very, very well into TES lore!For the record lore is malleable , it is the wonderful thing about using a lore system like this. Game designers can do what they want.
Heck... take it from the in-game lore:
See?In the 321st year of the 2nd Era, the Potentate gave his approval to the Guilds Act, officially sanctioning the Mages, together with the Guilds of Tinkers, Cobblers, Prostitutes, Scribes, Architects, Brewers, Vintners, Weavers, Ratcatchers, Furriers, Cooks, Astrologers, Healers, Tailors, Minstrals, Barristers, and the Syffim. In the charter, they were no longer called the Syffim, however: bowing to the name it had become known as by the people, they were to be called the Fighters Guild.
"Ministals" otherwise known as "Bards" were among the -first- GULDS officially recognized and sanctioned by the empire in the TES lore about guilds!!!
Of course, the "how" is entirely up to the developers (duh), and if they want to have "spellsongs" or not is their choice. I think if would be nifty, and there IS precedent for "musical magic" - the "War Horn" in the PvP assault skill line!
Agreed.Siohwenoeht wrote: »...however there's just not enough meat in tes bardic tradition for a full blown class.
But... enough for a guild skill line!
Which would be better anyhow, because it would allow us to refit bardyness to any of our long standing characters, no matter if they be nightblade rogues or templar priestesses of dibella...
True enough - for the third era bards that grow up in the days of the "Scholls of Magic" system. After all, why should they have their own seperate system when all magic is collected into the schools anyhow?What we're saying is that the Bard class that you're looking for - the one that uses Music themed magical abilities like a Bard inspiration song - is not something TES Bards actually do.
They are primarily Illusion/Alteration users that had benefits to the speech system. None of their magical abilities involved them singing or playing an instrument.
But ESO is set before that! And we do have spells here that don't really exist in that form in the "later" TES times... and we DO have at least one "musical instrument spell"... so, are you really gonna try and tell us that "Bards" (if ever implemented as guild in their own right) cannot do the PvP-Hornblowers one better when it comes to magical music??? Seriously???
2 -
HappyLittleTree✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toss a coin to your [Insert Class] o'Planes of Oblivion, o'Planes of Oblivion oh oh ohThuu chakkuth lod Hajhiit c’oo? Hajhiit gortsuquth gorihuth thuu gooluthduj thdeitoluu!
XBox-EU0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
Don't you feel like you are contradicting yourself a bit?Bards are part of Elder Scrolls history but not like D&D, as you've pointed out Bards are going to use actual weapons instead of their instruments in battle.
Now TBF in the Assault PvP skill line there is a horn ability that supports your group.
Fist saying "In eso there is no magical music" and then reminding everyone... that there already IS one with war horn???
...while overlooking some -major- points.So this goes back to my earlier point about overlap, redundancy, and relevancy.
Does a Bard skill line overlap with any already pre-existing skill lines?
if it is a plausible that doesn't mean that the Bard is the appropriate theme for that skill line.
What do I mean by that? Well while looking over your proposed Bardic skill line I found that an illusion or alteration theme would be more appropriate for most, if not all, of these abilities.
One - there is NO "alteration" skill line in ESO, because the magic of ESO predates the "Schools of Magic" system seen in every other TES game. Just look at most of the other "spells" in ESO.
Two - the -main- point of the quoted bardic idea is not in the skill effects, but in the way they differ from all other spells - not cast like a spell for a big short term effect, but for a lesser effect, but as continuous low-cost AoE ability. Basically the difference between a shout (mage spell, short but loud), and a song (bard spellsong, long and subtle). THAT is the main idea, and the main difference I was thinking about, and something you completely seem to have overlooked in your critique...
Three - bards in eso use... wait for it... a great deal of illusion magic. And can learn other schools of magic as well. So why would it be strange that some of the spellsongs I theorize about... seem like illusion magic, or alteration magic, or... magic in general?
Oh, and the whole thing is merely a "proof of concept" collection...
I reckon, IF they make bards as a guild sized skill line like I would hope, and IF they decide to add something like music-magic, I reckon they would not follow my pattern exactly, but at most take some inspiration and then have their own thoughts and designs.
Because that was the whole point of the idea I had, as you saw I expect, with a bunch of other "new guild" ideas.So why the Bard theme?
I just thought up what I considered "possible" for "bardic magic" off the top of my head back then, to give people a concept of how such a guild -could- be. Not saying it -should- be done exactly like I brainstormed about, its simply an -example- and like I said, the real thing is in -how- the skills differ from normal spells, not in their actual effects which were just pulled out of my... memories.
And yet ALL the skills are done in a "songs" way... while the "stories" would be part of the questline. I did mention that I would hope for one more concerned with social interactions rather then fighting, yes?None of those abilities & spells have anything to do with a Bard's skill set which in Elder Scrolls is largely about song & stories.
Oh? And do you also think Nightblades cannibalize vampire abilities, or that templars should give up their healing to be collected in a "restoration" skill line?It cannibalizes what would be more appropriate as an Alteration skill line - something that better fits a magic user in the Elder Scrolls setting rather than music themed abilities.
Like I said, ESO is set -before- the "schools of magic". Thus a LOT of various skills that would be found in those skill lines in the "classic" thord and fourth era games are scattered all mover the place in classes or guild skill lines...
Also, again, its not about the effect, its in the different way how those effects are implemented.
Again, these things would be -different- from spells. So the very same effects could be done as spells as well if the people at ZOS wanted to!Not all Players might be pleased if they would have to use bardic themed abilities if they wanted to be able to cast what are essentially Alteration & illusion spells, which have nothing to do with music.
...and that is now getting really out there.the dialogue passive that allowed the player to barter is something that could simply be added to the Thieves Guild skill line.
You realize the thieves guild skill line is already done, right???
You realize that thieves are all about -stealing- from people??
You realize bards indeed are about -charming- people?
So, how did you -ever- come to the conclusion that thieves should be able to charm vendors into giving them better deals rather then bards???
Agreed.No more classes, please
New classes are evil!
Sure, some people might enjoy them... but the ones who have been playing for four years and more, who already have several alts, and face the two great vexations that come with new classes due to the fact that unlike pretty much everything else, classes -cannot- be refitted to existing characters... yes, I am once again talking about the vexation at having to play through all the too-familiar content for the sixteenth time or more to enjoy the new class because we alreeady made all those characters back in the time before new classes; and even moreso the aggrivation of seeing a new class released and thinking "Why the [censored] was that [censored] class not [censored] available back at [censored] launch, it [censored] would have made so [censored] much more [censored] sense for that [censored] main character backstory of mine! [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!"
Guild lines on the other hand... like TG; DB; or Psijic for example... can be picked up by -every- character, no matter if newly made or played since launch!
So... bring us more of those. Please?
Then you have been reading wrong, the "Bard" in the elder scrolls lore -always- was a "jack/Jill of all trades" kind of deal, mixing magic and rogue-ish abilities, with a LOT of social and speechcraft stuff.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game
A stamina build would be something a lot more specialized in the physical... warriors, thieves, etc.
The thing is, "Bard" fits very, very well into TES lore!For the record lore is malleable , it is the wonderful thing about using a lore system like this. Game designers can do what they want.
Heck... take it from the in-game lore:
See?In the 321st year of the 2nd Era, the Potentate gave his approval to the Guilds Act, officially sanctioning the Mages, together with the Guilds of Tinkers, Cobblers, Prostitutes, Scribes, Architects, Brewers, Vintners, Weavers, Ratcatchers, Furriers, Cooks, Astrologers, Healers, Tailors, Minstrals, Barristers, and the Syffim. In the charter, they were no longer called the Syffim, however: bowing to the name it had become known as by the people, they were to be called the Fighters Guild.
"Ministals" otherwise known as "Bards" were among the -first- GULDS officially recognized and sanctioned by the empire in the TES lore about guilds!!!
Of course, the "how" is entirely up to the developers (duh), and if they want to have "spellsongs" or not is their choice. I think if would be nifty, and there IS precedent for "musical magic" - the "War Horn" in the PvP assault skill line!
Agreed.Siohwenoeht wrote: »...however there's just not enough meat in tes bardic tradition for a full blown class.
But... enough for a guild skill line!
Which would be better anyhow, because it would allow us to refit bardyness to any of our long standing characters, no matter if they be nightblade rogues or templar priestesses of dibella...
True enough - for the third era bards that grow up in the days of the "Scholls of Magic" system. After all, why should they have their own seperate system when all magic is collected into the schools anyhow?What we're saying is that the Bard class that you're looking for - the one that uses Music themed magical abilities like a Bard inspiration song - is not something TES Bards actually do.
They are primarily Illusion/Alteration users that had benefits to the speech system. None of their magical abilities involved them singing or playing an instrument.
But ESO is set before that! And we do have spells here that don't really exist in that form in the "later" TES times... and we DO have at least one "musical instrument spell"... so, are you really gonna try and tell us that "Bards" (if ever implemented as guild in their own right) cannot do the PvP-Hornblowers one better when it comes to magical music??? Seriously???
Your counter arguments are dry at best to be honest. You catch on the littlest most vague things and completely discard any constructive criticism behind the post.
I'm so done lol.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm starting to suspect there already is a Bard class in the TES Universe that does musical power-up theme songs.
They're masters of Illusion who run around with 100% Chameleon as the choir and orchestra doing all the battle music.
3 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?
But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.
BUT!
It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.
Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game
Every class in this game you can say the same for. Every class is a set of variables along with a couple themed skill lines.
"You could use emotes ... blah blah"
Did a bard kill your family and kick your dog or something?
No.
The way the bard class is "created" in the linked games is by taking attribute lines available to all players and taking certain ones to give the illusion of a playstyle that fits the name. They are there to give you an idea of the playstyle you'll have, not an actual class like ESO. The class based system is the exact opposite, your skills and attributes dont define your class, your class defined your attributes and skills.
A bard didn't kill my family but one did tell me that there's tons of games with bards in them. He also mentioned people should try those games before ruining the lore of this one.4 -
Unseelie✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?
But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.
BUT!
It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.
Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game
Every class in this game you can say the same for. Every class is a set of variables along with a couple themed skill lines.
"You could use emotes ... blah blah"
Did a bard kill your family and kick your dog or something?
No.
The way the bard class is "created" in the linked games is by taking attribute lines available to all players and taking certain ones to give the illusion of a playstyle that fits the name. They are there to give you an idea of the playstyle you'll have, not an actual class like ESO. The class based system is the exact opposite, your skills and attributes dont define your class, your class defined your attributes and skills.
A bard didn't kill my family but one did tell me that there's tons of games with bards in them. He also mentioned people should try those games before ruining the lore of this one.
You talk about "breaking lore" when as a point of Lore Bards are there.
Mechanics is the only leg you continue to stand on but continue to try and hide it as protecting Lore. Bards exist as character choices in multiple ES games. Check.
There are multiple examples in the Lore of bards using magic lines such as illusion, as well as specific skills. Bards were a premade CLASS in the Elder Scrolls games.
There is also Lore covering audible magic.
Lore is covered. You can not get past the D&D perception of Bards and are trying to dictate lore for something that does exist. Necromancer, Warden and others are Lore classes made functional with skills created to match their thematic leanings. This would be no different.
Do not use Lore as an excuse because the Lore is there.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard...and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?
But yeah, it is quite true that in the elder scrolls universe "bards" are... all-rounder characters focussing on social interaction and storytelling. With a mix of rogueish and magical skills.
BUT!
It is a very, very small step from "casting spells through mystic gestures and mumbles incantations" to "casting spells through playing musical instruments and singing"!
And thus... as long as any such "spellsongs" still use magica to power their effects... its well within the elder scrolls understanding of bards! And if ZOS so chooses, they can pick up the concept and run with it, a great many people (as you noted) would be happy to see it (and pay for it). Me, I hope they will, as a guild skill line akin to Psijic... but then I would, would I not: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
It really isn't though based on what you've linked. If you actually read the linked pages you'd see that the bard "class" is just a name given to preset variables so you have some choices to start with. OP is right it's not D@D and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.
Also wanna point out that from the descriptions of the class given you could just play stamina build and use emotes and your bard is already in the game
Every class in this game you can say the same for. Every class is a set of variables along with a couple themed skill lines.
"You could use emotes ... blah blah"
Did a bard kill your family and kick your dog or something?
No.
The way the bard class is "created" in the linked games is by taking attribute lines available to all players and taking certain ones to give the illusion of a playstyle that fits the name. They are there to give you an idea of the playstyle you'll have, not an actual class like ESO. The class based system is the exact opposite, your skills and attributes dont define your class, your class defined your attributes and skills.
A bard didn't kill my family but one did tell me that there's tons of games with bards in them. He also mentioned people should try those games before ruining the lore of this one.
You talk about "breaking lore" when as a point of Lore Bards are there.
Mechanics is the only leg you continue to stand on but continue to try and hide it as protecting Lore. Bards exist as character choices in multiple ES games. Check.
There are multiple examples in the Lore of bards using magic lines such as illusion, as well as specific skills. Bards were a premade CLASS in the Elder Scrolls games.
There is also Lore covering audible magic.
Lore is covered. You can not get past the D&D perception of Bards and are trying to dictate lore for something that does exist. Necromancer, Warden and others are Lore classes made functional with skills created to match their thematic leanings. This would be no different.
Do not use Lore as an excuse because the Lore is there.
You talk about "breaking lore" when as a point of Lore Bards are there.
Yes, bards are there in lorewise, they are used as NPCs that sing songs and play music. They do not exist as mercenary/adventurer characters in any way what so ever. Here's the lore on the Bard's College in Skyrim.
The Bards College is an institute found in the city of Solitude, within the province of Skyrim. The Bards College is well-known throughout the province as a prominent institute of music and history for the aspiring bard, or the Skald as they are known in Skyrim. Students of the Bards College are known to be well-trained and successful in their business. More often than not, a former student of the Bards College are employed in various noble households and have even entertained the Elder Council of the Imperial City.[1] The college can be marked by the Flames of Callisos, which is found at the entrance. As long as the flames remained lit, the College will stand.[2] The Bards College has two known departments, in History and Lute (Music). The Bards College, many poets, and historians write poems and stories in the Poetic Edda, a collection of endless poems that depict Skyrim's extended history.
So unless your skill trees include "Entertain Nobility, Music, and Speech" you're not getting a bard class. Can a bard be a fighter? Yes. Are bards as a class/profession in ESO fighters. NO.
Mechanics is the only leg you continue to stand on but continue to try and hide it as protecting Lore. Bards exist as character choices in multiple ES games. Check.
You're comparing ESO and its class system to the very earliest game types of the ES series where it was very much D&D inspired and less inspired by it's own existing lore like it does now. You're also avoiding what I said earlier about how classes actually function, because ya know, it proves you wrong.
There are multiple examples in the Lore of bards using magic lines such as illusion, as well as specific skills. Bards were a premade CLASS in the Elder Scrolls games.
What specific skills? If they're specific you should be able to name some. Illusion magic isn't a specific magic tree to bards either, it's specific to magic users. If the bard was really a "class" as you're trying to define it then he should have specific bardly skills. They don't.
There is also Lore covering audible magic.
If the lore doesn't say it's specific to Bard's it really doesn't matter.
Lore is covered. You can not get past the D&D perception of Bards and are trying to dictate lore for something that does exist.
That's because D&D is the only place where a "bard" is an actual class lol You're right lore is covered and it says that bards are musicians.
Necromancer, Warden and others are Lore classes made functional with skills created to match their thematic leanings. This would be no different.
Except these classes exist in ES games and not only that they are meant to be functional combat classes. That's why when you go into a cave you fight necromancers or the reachmen (wardens) and not bards lol. Speaking of which, have you ever encountered a bard in game that isn't dead or relegated to an Inn? No? You mean there's no "Bandit Bard" classes running around looting people? I wonder why lol
Do not use Lore as an excuse because the Lore is there.
It is there to show that bards aren't a playable class. Stop trying to change the lore to fit it how you want it, it exists the way it does for a reason.Edited by Rave the Histborn on January 16, 2020 1:05AM5 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.4 -
Unseelie✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge"Edited by Unseelie on January 16, 2020 1:49AM0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge"
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
No. They are a player class because it is in the interest of the game to give players in the real world around that time the ability to use preset "character sheets" and you need to be able to name them to differentiate them. If that's the case then why is there no "bard" class in Skyrim? You're telling me they exist as adventurers in Morrowind then 200ish years later in Skyrim they don't.
If you'd also like to go by in-game time frames "The Bards College was founded when Skyrim was a part of the First Empire, roughly during the twilight years of Ysgramor's dynasty, and the years following." So if bards are being trained for thousands of years from the Bard's college why are they only teaching history and music? This would predate Morrowind by a significant time frame and should show that Bards aren't anything more than musicians.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Again, in Skyrim there is no bard class, so it really doesn't hold that there would be this shift in perception that suddenly swung back completely by the time the Dragonborn comes around. It also doesn't help that this shift would only occur precisely when you want it to because it is established in other games that in the history of Bards as a profession they have never functioned that way. I'm not saying 1 or 2 bards couldn't do long for adventurers, I'm saying bards as a whole don't do that which is why they shouldn't be a class. The same can't really be said for Necromancers/Wardens as those have been established as combat roles.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
Basically everywhere but I appreciate the attempt
"One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge" [/quote]
sigh, Did you even read what you linked? lol
It is one of three possible powers gained from the quest "Black Book: Untold Legends."
Black Book: Untold Legends is a quest in The Elder Scrolls V: Dragonborn in which the Dragonborn must find the hidden knowledge within the Black Book Untold Legends in the realm of Apocrypha.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Book:_Untold_Legends_(Quest)
So first off I'd like to point out that no bard in the TES universe would have access to this power. You get it from a Daedric prince's quest line. It is just named bardic knowledge, it has nothing to do with actual bards or them having any form of power. This is the power you get.
"Summons a spectral drum that plays for 300 seconds, improving Stamina Regen for you and nearby allies."
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm4 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge"
But the bard class in Morrowind and Oblivion doesn't sing. Or at least, they don't sing spells and whatnot, they are just normal songs. They use melee and illusion magic to actually fight, but prefer to talk their way out of them.
If we got some entertainer personality and put it on a nightblade we'd have a bard from those games.Edited by NotaDaedraWorshipper on January 16, 2020 3:41AM[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!2 -
Unseelie✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge"
But the bard class in Morrowind and Oblivion doesn't sing. Or at least, they don't sing spells and whatnot. They are just normal songs, while they use melee and illusion magic to actually fight.
If we got some entertainer personality and put it on a nightblade we'd have a bard from those games.
Indeed. And I agree with much that you say( though I am kind of scared of personalities now since I was waiting for the pirate personality and now that it is there it is some Jack Sparrow wannabe and kind of disturbing to me) And nowhere in the entire mess have I or others who have talked about a bard class said anything about singing or even instruments.
And as for the personality, if I take the assassin personality and put it on any other class you have a Nightblade. It is a slippery slope.
Anyway, nothing has even been announced or mentioned or even hinted at. I am just amused by those who have popped in here and gone on hardcore rants about why Bards would be bad. *shrug* It is all moot unless anything is announced.Edited by Unseelie on January 16, 2020 3:53AM0 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The trouble with the lore argument is that Nightblades, Dragonknights, Templars, and Wardens barely fit in the single player mechanics either. You can see the single player classes they were inspired by, but they’ve had their abilities and image cranked up to 11 for the sake of “it’s an MMO” design. Something I detested at launch but have learned to put up with.
So while I agree that bards singing buffs and offensive magic doesn’t fit into traditional TES lore at all... they kinda do fit into ESO’s hyper imagination of traditional TES classes. I’d still prefer to see a one-hand-and-spell weapon line first, and would prefer bard skills (if they happen) to be a guild skill line rather than a class, but I wouldn’t be too bothered by it in context. Pretty much every province in Tamriel has lore surrounding the use of music, song, or voice to create ”magic” (tonal architecture), so it would fit into ESO’s hyper class style.2 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Am I wrong in there somewhere?
One quest reward in Skyrim even gives a lesser power called "Bardic Knowledge"
But the bard class in Morrowind and Oblivion doesn't sing. Or at least, they don't sing spells and whatnot. They are just normal songs, while they use melee and illusion magic to actually fight.
If we got some entertainer personality and put it on a nightblade we'd have a bard from those games.
Indeed. And I agree with much that you say( though I am kind of scared of personalities now since I was waiting for the pirate personality and now that it is there it is some Jack Sparrow wannabe and kind of disturbing to me) And nowhere in the entire mess have I or others who have talked about a bard class said anything about singing or even instruments.
And as for the personality, if I take the assassin personality and put it on any other class you have a Nightblade. It is a slippery slope.
Anyway, nothing has even been announced or mentioned or even hinted at. I am just amused by those who have popped in here and gone on hardcore rants about why Bards would be bad. *shrug* It is all moot unless anything is announced.
Yes they have. I'm not sure if you specifically have but others do have wanted bards who heal, buff etc through song a la DnD. That's the main issue I think most people have that are against bards. Myself included.
I'm perfectly fine with Elder Scrolls bard such as:
1: An entertainer/storyteller who sing and/or play an instrument. They are mainly just normal citizens. Such as the ones you find in inns etc.
2 : The rogue sub type. Who uses agile melee, illusion magic and speech.
Now nr 1 is not capable to be a class in ESO, nor does it fit to be a skilline. We can already play lutes and such to pretend be this. Nr 2 on the other hand could be possible though , but their class skills wouldn't be based on singing and whatnot. Instead some good ol' classic illusion, that could cause cc and debuffs like "confusion" etc.
A suitable class for the Elder Scrolls setting.
The issues being though that one: It will likely be too similar to the Nightblade, just with a slight different flavour. Secondly, I do not trust ESO to do this well, especially not after the whole "Necromancer" ordeal. We'd likely get some cringey class that sing forth lightning. Thirdly, well, do we actually need another class right now? ZoS is having trouble with the ones we already have...Edited by NotaDaedraWorshipper on January 16, 2020 9:51AM[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!3 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bardic Knowledge as an ultimate? Awesome, if just to see Old Herma Mora again0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You mean, you consider "constructive criticism" comments like:You catch on the littlest most vague things and completely discard any constructive criticism behind the post....and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.Lord_Hypnos wrote: »Please do not bring that trash into this game.
...if that sounds constructive to you, then we may have another difference in opinion...Rave the Histborn wrote: »...and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.
But hey, at least I DO make arguments for the point I am arguing. I mean, isn't that the very idea behind arguing? To present arguments why you have an opinion, instead of just dumping accusations and such on other people?
Once again:Rave the Histborn wrote: »Yes, bards are there in lorewise, they are used as NPCs that sing songs and play music. They do not exist as mercenary/adventurer characters in any way what so ever.
Prior games set in the elder scrolls universe HAD bards as "mercenary/adventurer characters". In many ways!!!TheShadowScout wrote: »
So all those "no bards!" arguments... are completely useless.
The archetype does exist in the elder scrolls universe.
Not THAT is a different argument...Rave the Histborn wrote: »It is there to show that bards aren't a playable class.
And one I would agree with.
Bards as class - in ESO?
Nah!
For one more new classes are evil (look up my usual rants on that), for another... in the way ESO is set up, mechanics-wise... "Bard" would make a LOT more sense as a guild skill line, much like the Mages Guild, or the Psijic Order, or the Thieves Guild... as it is not an "adventurer class" per se, more an... template that some adventurers may follow, or a profession some adventurers may have... (Note to any developers - definitely add some "bardish" titles to achievement rewards if this was ever added to ESO! "Bard" and "Minstrel" and "Skald" are must-haves! "Harper" would be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod at D&D!)
Which would then fit both points of view... that there can be bards in tamriel, but that they will have to draw on some other skills for the fighting, be it magical or physical... or a mix of the two (and yes, I still pray that someday that will be viable again, or at least the current "All in one" META will be made less effective...)
Oh, so you want a second era example for a "bard" who can fight and not just compose an song about fighting?Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Got one for ya.
His name is Jorunn. Otherwise known as the SKALD King.
More evidence for the "player character bards" camps.
But you DO have a vaild point in that -what- exactly a "bard" is seen as may change over the centuries... thus this point supports a bard skill line more then a seperate class. Since Jorunn for example is a competent fighter, but not because he is a skald, but more... despite being a skald (and his brother did ridicule him for it, so... there is that).
So, a very good point could be made that in the times of ESO, "bard" is a guild proficiency like Psijic, that people take in -addition- to theire basic class, not a class in itself. Which would suit me fine (and I expect many others as well, who then could refit bardicness to their favorite characters!)
Agreed. To both of the points!Darkstorne wrote: »I’d still prefer to see a one-hand-and-spell weapon line first, and would prefer bard skills (if they happen) to be a guild skill line rather than a class...
No surprise there, yes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
Indeed, we do have several instances of "musical magic" in ESO already, from PvP "War Horn" buffing people to occasional Dwemer musical mischief driving kwama miners out of their mind and such... so its -well- within the lore to have music that is also magic. And once we put any lore-established "Bardic Guild" (like the one in Solitude) together with those indications... it is only logical that there could be some skill line made from this. But not more then -one- skill line, and that says... guild skill line!Darkstorne wrote: »Pretty much every province in Tamriel has lore surrounding the use of music, song, or voice to create ”magic” (tonal architecture), so it would fit into ESO’s hyper class style.
And yet, none of those people complain about a musical instrument buffing people in the PvP skill line... so why is it so painful to imagine that idea being expanded a bit when -trained- minstrels pick it up and run with it (or rather, play some music with it?)NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »Yes they have. I'm not sure if you specifically have but others do have wanted bards who heal, buff etc through song a la DnD. That's the main issue I think most people have that are against bards.
(And as clarification - if someone were to suggest that "bards" could make magic by -just- playing an instrument, -without- also putting some magica into their spellsong... I too would be against that!!! Because in ESO, "magic" of any kind takes magica to power it, one way or another!)
...even if they were to -sing- their spells instead of mumbling them under their breath?NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »I'm perfectly fine with Elder Scrolls bard such as:
...
2 : The rogue sub type. Who uses agile melee, illusion magic and speech.
Because THAT is the only difference I really see between "standard magic" and "musical magic" at its core. Yes, there could be other differences constructed, like I went with going for a "low continous cost for lower effect as within-earshot AoE" to depict a more song-like "spell"... and in the end, any "bardic guild" could also very well be depicted as a skill line like TG with loads of passives, IF the powers that be so choose.
I just happen to think a "Spellsong" skill line would be more fun! And more interesting. And more likely to get people to cough up money to get it! -points at all the bard lovers in the discussion-0 -
vilio11✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »bards are more of an elder scrolls class than dragon knights or warden ;-). But yeah, classes in TES games have always only been recommendations for skill compositions...and yeah it would have been better to create eso from the ground up without classes and purely skill based... but here we are.
Dragon Knights are just glorified pyromancers and thats why they are part of the Elder Scrolls lore.0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
You mean, you consider "constructive criticism" comments like:You catch on the littlest most vague things and completely discard any constructive criticism behind the post....and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.Lord_Hypnos wrote: »Please do not bring that trash into this game.
...if that sounds constructive to you, then we may have another difference in opinion...Rave the Histborn wrote: »...and it honestly wouldn't fit into the ESO universe as well people want it to.
But hey, at least I DO make arguments for the point I am arguing. I mean, isn't that the very idea behind arguing? To present arguments why you have an opinion, instead of just dumping accusations and such on other people?
Once again:Rave the Histborn wrote: »Yes, bards are there in lorewise, they are used as NPCs that sing songs and play music. They do not exist as mercenary/adventurer characters in any way what so ever.
Prior games set in the elder scrolls universe HAD bards as "mercenary/adventurer characters". In many ways!!!TheShadowScout wrote: »
So all those "no bards!" arguments... are completely useless.
The archetype does exist in the elder scrolls universe.
Not THAT is a different argument...Rave the Histborn wrote: »It is there to show that bards aren't a playable class.
And one I would agree with.
Bards as class - in ESO?
Nah!
For one more new classes are evil (look up my usual rants on that), for another... in the way ESO is set up, mechanics-wise... "Bard" would make a LOT more sense as a guild skill line, much like the Mages Guild, or the Psijic Order, or the Thieves Guild... as it is not an "adventurer class" per se, more an... template that some adventurers may follow, or a profession some adventurers may have... (Note to any developers - definitely add some "bardish" titles to achievement rewards if this was ever added to ESO! "Bard" and "Minstrel" and "Skald" are must-haves! "Harper" would be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod at D&D!)
Which would then fit both points of view... that there can be bards in tamriel, but that they will have to draw on some other skills for the fighting, be it magical or physical... or a mix of the two (and yes, I still pray that someday that will be viable again, or at least the current "All in one" META will be made less effective...)
Oh, so you want a second era example for a "bard" who can fight and not just compose an song about fighting?Let's take for example the fact that there is 700 + years between ESO and Morrowind....
Now in Morrowind Bards are a player class. Full stop. They are known adventurers.
So the way I see it, something between now and then within that 700 years changes the perception of Bards from just Entertainers and Musicians to rogues and adventurers who can handle themselves with a combination of rogue and thief skills and magic including illusions.
Got one for ya.
His name is Jorunn. Otherwise known as the SKALD King.
More evidence for the "player character bards" camps.
But you DO have a vaild point in that -what- exactly a "bard" is seen as may change over the centuries... thus this point supports a bard skill line more then a seperate class. Since Jorunn for example is a competent fighter, but not because he is a skald, but more... despite being a skald (and his brother did ridicule him for it, so... there is that).
So, a very good point could be made that in the times of ESO, "bard" is a guild proficiency like Psijic, that people take in -addition- to theire basic class, not a class in itself. Which would suit me fine (and I expect many others as well, who then could refit bardicness to their favorite characters!)
Agreed. To both of the points!Darkstorne wrote: »I’d still prefer to see a one-hand-and-spell weapon line first, and would prefer bard skills (if they happen) to be a guild skill line rather than a class...
No surprise there, yes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
Indeed, we do have several instances of "musical magic" in ESO already, from PvP "War Horn" buffing people to occasional Dwemer musical mischief driving kwama miners out of their mind and such... so its -well- within the lore to have music that is also magic. And once we put any lore-established "Bardic Guild" (like the one in Solitude) together with those indications... it is only logical that there could be some skill line made from this. But not more then -one- skill line, and that says... guild skill line!Darkstorne wrote: »Pretty much every province in Tamriel has lore surrounding the use of music, song, or voice to create ”magic” (tonal architecture), so it would fit into ESO’s hyper class style.
And yet, none of those people complain about a musical instrument buffing people in the PvP skill line... so why is it so painful to imagine that idea being expanded a bit when -trained- minstrels pick it up and run with it (or rather, play some music with it?)NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »Yes they have. I'm not sure if you specifically have but others do have wanted bards who heal, buff etc through song a la DnD. That's the main issue I think most people have that are against bards.
(And as clarification - if someone were to suggest that "bards" could make magic by -just- playing an instrument, -without- also putting some magica into their spellsong... I too would be against that!!! Because in ESO, "magic" of any kind takes magica to power it, one way or another!)
...even if they were to -sing- their spells instead of mumbling them under their breath?NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »I'm perfectly fine with Elder Scrolls bard such as:
...
2 : The rogue sub type. Who uses agile melee, illusion magic and speech.
Because THAT is the only difference I really see between "standard magic" and "musical magic" at its core. Yes, there could be other differences constructed, like I went with going for a "low continous cost for lower effect as within-earshot AoE" to depict a more song-like "spell"... and in the end, any "bardic guild" could also very well be depicted as a skill line like TG with loads of passives, IF the powers that be so choose.
I just happen to think a "Spellsong" skill line would be more fun! And more interesting. And more likely to get people to cough up money to get it! -points at all the bard lovers in the discussion-
It fits nothing lol, music is not magic! Its noises created by vibrating things. Now, if you were to summon a daedric drum that increased stam recovery by 50%... but that would be a spell and not you actually playing the instrument...
Bards are dumb1 -
Chrysa1is✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bards would be the most pointless and dumb thing to add into the game IMO.
Imagine you're fighting Velidreth. It's dark, gloomy, everyone is fighting for their lives and traversing the catacombs escaping hoards of enemies, and all of a sudden you've got that one Bard guy on your team using singing attacks with musical notes as projectiles, blowing darts out of his magic flute and his ult where he hits his drum really hard it creates shockwaves that deal damage. It would look like a joke. It'd be like adding a my little pony mount into the game just for a meme.5 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭@TheShadowScout
Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Yes, bards are there in lorewise, they are used as NPCs that sing songs and play music. They do not exist as mercenary/adventurer characters in any way what so ever.
Once again:
TheShadowScout wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Bard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Bard
...you were saying?
Why didn't you include Skyrim? If bards are actually a player class they should be in the Skyrim too then right? Why aren't they? Oh, is it because they dropped the D&D premade "classes" and focused on a game without preset abilities. Why aren't bards seen anywhere outside of inns in game? If they're all adventurers and not just musicians surely you'd find them in caves and random encounters in other games right? Wait what's that? You can't????? They're only relegated to towns? But they get taught history AND music! Why aren't they saving the world from Daedra!
Man, it's almost like they had to give premade sets of abilities names to describe what they'd be like so people could just choose one quick and go. But why would they do that! It makes no sense.
Not THAT is a different argument...
And one I would agree with.
Bards as class - in ESO?
Nah!
For one more new classes are evil (look up my usual rants on that), for another... in the way ESO is set up, mechanics-wise... "Bard" would make a LOT more sense as a guild skill line, much like the Mages Guild, or the Psijic Order, or the Thieves Guild... as it is not an "adventurer class" per se, more an... template that some adventurers may follow, or a profession some adventurers may have... (Note to any developers - definitely add some "bardish" titles to achievement rewards if this was ever added to ESO! "Bard" and "Minstrel" and "Skald" are must-haves! "Harper" would be a nice tongue-in-cheek nod at D&D!)
Which would then fit both points of view... that there can be bards in tamriel, but that they will have to draw on some other skills for the fighting, be it magical or physical... or a mix of the two (and yes, I still pray that someday that will be viable again, or at least the current "All in one" META will be made less effective...)
So you're asking for a useless guild skill line? I mean it's better than a new class but I still can't see being viable in ESO in mechanics (It'd end up being a resource recovery skill line but to keep the rest of stuff in check you'll just get nerfs to all resource recoveries).
Oh, so you want a second era example for a "bard" who can fight and not just compose an song about fighting?
Got one for ya.
His name is Jorunn. Otherwise known as the SKALD King.
More evidence for the "player character bards" camps.
Composing a song doesn't make you a bard. He's called the skald KING, which means he would be trained in a lot of things like combat, diplomacy, and the arts but calling him a bard is ridiculous. I mean if all it takes is one song or poem then EVERYONE in ESO is a bard which means there doesn't need to be a bard class! Just /lute and you've already hit your established criteria for bardhood!!
More evidence for the "player character bards" camps.
Let me destroy that evidence quick. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bards_College
There's a ton of lore that supports the opposite of that. Read the link.
But you DO have a vaild point in that -what- exactly a "bard" is seen as may change over the centuries... thus this point supports a bard skill line more then a seperate class.
No.
If you think bards changed over centuries why did they suddenly become fighters in this few hundred years span in your mind but never in 2 previous eras (1st and 2nd) and no longer in the 4th era (Skyrim).
So, a very good point could be made that in the times of ESO, "bard" is a guild proficiency like Psijic, that people take in -addition- to theire basic class, not a class in itself. Which would suit me fine (and I expect many others as well, who then could refit bardicness to their favorite characters!)
/lute /flute /drum are there for that
Indeed, we do have several instances of "musical magic" in ESO already, from PvP "War Horn" buffing people to occasional Dwemer musical mischief driving kwama miners out of their mind and such... so its -well- within the lore to have music that is also magic. And once we put any lore-established "Bardic Guild" (like the one in Solitude) together with those indications... it is only logical that there could be some skill line made from this. But not more then -one- skill line, and that says... guild skill line!
What are you talking about? Warhorns exist in real life and don't require magic. Dwemer "musical" magic requires city sized machinery and a race so technologically advanced they don't exist anymore so it is very much in the lore to NOT have music that is magic. The "lore established bard guild" already exists too and it contradicts the idea that bards are a class. Let me link it again in case. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bards_College
And yet, none of those people complain about a musical instrument buffing people in the PvP skill line...
....................................do you know what music is? A war horn is not a musical instrument. It is a horn that plays a note that is designed to be a signal in war. Is that why this topic is still going? People advocating for bards don't even know what a musical instrument is.
This is a war horn. It is not an instrument and it is not magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yw2X4C0AHc
0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bards pretty much died tonight for ESO, give it up. The same goes for One Hand + Rune.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭It's not part of ESO till they add it. Much like shouting was just a way to be louder till TES made shout a way to do damage. It's a fantasy game and anything is possible. Fantasy is about dreaming the impossible in fun and creative ways. Keep your box I read your post and I want a bard.0