an FYI about Bards in the Elder Scrolls universe
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
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Wardens always existed in ESO, they were a thing back from Alpha/Beta and in game rudimentary versions of the Wardens have been enemy NPCs. The same with Necromancer. Bards though... they exist as NPCs with voiceovers, singing in taverns. That’s it.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -3 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
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Well I mean yeah, both their are ice/nature based magic users. The reason they'd be called "wardens" is because Reachmen are naturally more evil aligned so they'd never be playable as characters. ZOS needed a way to turn them into a player class and that's how you get wardens.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, how many "player classes" are there in skyrim, hmmm???Rave the Histborn wrote: »Why didn't you include Skyrim? If bards are actually a player class they should be in the Skyrim too then right?
Exactly.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Oh, is it because they dropped the D&D premade "classes" and focused on a game without preset abilities.
Not that the "classes" in other TES games ever were more then... starting points. You could make any class, and then end up with a completely different setup in the end...
And you still could make up whatever "fantasy protagonist archetype" you want in Skyrim!
Whoever said "all"??? Yes, a great many "bards" will rather be singing then going on adventurers. Just like a great many craftsmen stay at home crafting rather then to go out fighting monsters. But there -really- is no logical reason someone cannot be both, cannot go out with sword AND lute, fight monsters in a dwelve one night and sing in some tavern the next...Rave the Histborn wrote: »If they're all adventurers and not just musicians surely you'd find them in caves and random encounters in other games right?
I mean...
...there are a lot of tailors in town shops, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn clothier, right?
...there are a lot of chefs in town inns, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn provisioning, right?
...there are a lot of blacksmiths in town forges, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn blacksmith, right?
...there are a lot of carpenters in town shops, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn woodworking, right?
...there are a lot of psijics in artaeum libraries, and yet our adventurers -still- can pick up the psijic skill line, right?
So, what would be the reason our adventurers could not learn some "bard" guild skill line of sorts as well???
No reason. None at all!
Was that I am into guild skill lines not completely and utterly obvious right from the very first time I posted my "new guild ideas"??? Perhaps actually reading stuff might help you gain better understanding?Rave the Histborn wrote: »So you're asking for a useless guild skill line?
As for the usefulness... well, that is up to the developers, how useful they might want to make it, and in which way.
And since different people may find different skill options of varying usefulness for -their- choosen playstyle...
Sooo... you make a big point about Jorunn the skald king not being a bard and then...Rave the Histborn wrote: »Composing a song doesn't make you a bard. He's called the skald KING, which means he would be trained in a lot of things like combat, diplomacy, and the arts but calling him a bard is ridiculous.
I did. And what is the first thing I read:Rave the Histborn wrote: »Let me destroy that evidence quick. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bards_College
There's a ton of lore that supports the opposite of that. Read the link.
...which contradicts your entirel "Jorunn the skald king is not a bard..." narrative.The Bards College is well-known throughout the province as a prominent institute of music and history for the aspiring bard, or the Skald as they are known in Skyrim.
Well done, contradicting your own argument!
...and do they increase someones magica, stamina and health IRL by 10% as well???Rave the Histborn wrote: »What are you talking about? Warhorns exist in real life and don't require magic.
This is exactly the example I am citing - a mundage musical instrument that exists IRL having a -magical- effect in the game. Now, everyone can blow a horn with only a bit of practice, but to -play- a musical instrument (horn or other) does indeed take a bit more skill. Thus... it would only be logical that while everyone can do the warhorn, it might be possible for someone -trained- in music to do more...
More like... room sized. For the machinery that actually makes the music to cover a large area... Ever looked at a medieval organ?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Dwemer "musical" magic requires city sized machinery...
...to build it.Rave the Histborn wrote: »...and a race so technologically advanced they don't exist anymore...
Obviously not to use it, or we would not have a quest shutting one down.
And yet we DO still have it, in a war horn that Does have a magicval effect, no matter how much you wish to ignore that, and there -are- musical machines which do have magical effects on people.Rave the Histborn wrote: »...so it is very much in the lore to NOT have music that is magic.
I'd say the already existing lore and in-game examples very much would support more "musical magic" - if the developers choose to go there!
Actually... nothing in there contradicts anything. It only states that there is a colledge where people are trained to be bards... which -would- indicate that "bard" might be a guild skill line people can learn after chargen.Rave the Histborn wrote: »The "lore established bard guild" already exists too and it contradicts the idea that bards are a class.
Not really. Oh, sure, they are not likely for the -coming- expansion since they seem to go with different stuff there... But... who knows what ZOS might do sometime in the future, so we can still brainstorm about what could be, might be, should be, or whatever!Seraphayel wrote: »Bards pretty much died tonight for ESO, give it up. The same goes for One Hand + Rune.
The archetype of "nature-mage" and "ice-mage" characters has existed long before they released the warden class...There were no Warden's in ESO lore as well. Guess I will delete my char.
Just as the achetype of "adventuring bard" exists in the elder scrolls universe. And the concept of "musical magic" does indeed exist in ESO, no matter how much some people are stuck in denial. And if the developers so choose, they could make a guild from the concepts someday! 0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, how many "player classes" are there in skyrim, hmmm???
None, but why is that? Is it because all those original classes were just premade playstyle guidelines and you might wanna give them names to tell the differences between them? Shocking. You play as a bard the entire time like a class would be in those games too right? You don't have access to every skill tree in the game right? They're not classes in previous TES games, they're premade character guidelines and they needed to be in the fantasty universe.
Exactly.
Not that the "classes" in other TES games ever were more then... starting points. You could make any class, and then end up with a completely different setup in the end...
So you're admitting that the "class" you're fighting so hard for never even existed in TES beyond a guideline meant for the absolute beginning of the game and for new players.
"Whoever said "all"??? Yes, a great many "bards" will rather be singing then going on adventurers. Just like a great many craftsmen stay at home crafting rather then to go out fighting monsters. But there -really- is no logical reason someone cannot be both, cannot go out with sword AND lute, fight monsters in a dwelve one night and sing in some tavern the next...
I mean...
...there are a lot of tailors in town shops, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn clothier, right?
...there are a lot of chefs in town inns, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn provisioning, right?
...there are a lot of blacksmiths in town forges, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn blacksmith, right?
...there are a lot of carpenters in town shops, and yet our adventurers -still- can learn woodworking, right?
...there are a lot of psijics in artaeum libraries, and yet our adventurers -still- can pick up the psijic skill line, right?
So, what would be the reason our adventurers could not learn some "bard" guild skill line of sorts as well???
No reason. None at all!"
First off if you make Bards a class you are saying all bards do this so yes you are saying "all" bards. Second you aren't a smith, you're an adventurer who happens to have these skills. There is a very big difference between being a blacksmith/carpenter etc. and someone who happens to have some of those skills.
Was that I am into guild skill lines not completely and utterly obvious right from the very first time I posted my "new guild ideas"??? Perhaps actually reading stuff might help you gain better understanding?;)
LOL ok, you mean like reading the lore and how classes work? Maybe you should try that out
As for the usefulness... well, that is up to the developers, how useful they might want to make it, and in which way.
And since different people may find different skill options of varying usefulness for -their- choosen playstyle...
Gotcha, so it's just going to cause nerfs because that's what happens every time
...which contradicts your entirel "Jorunn the skald king is not a bard..." narrative.
Well done, contradicting your own argument!;)
Kings get nicknames based things about them that are extraordinary. Being trained in the arts as a Nord is very out of the ordinary which is where he got his name. He wasn't a bard, he was just more art inclined. This is the same way kings got names in ancient times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_the_Boneless
Just a heads up, he didn't get his nickname because he had no bones, but according to historical sources there was 1 "bone" he couldn't get up anymore and hence his nickname. Same thing, just because he wrote a poem or 2 doesn't make him an actual bard. Look at the Skaald king's lore, he's trained in the arts really young and is a singer (again like all nobility) he just happened to be a noteworthy singer. All Nords are warriors even their kings, but to highlight Jorunn they gave him a name to make him stand out. The only reason his "legacy" exists is his conquests, not his songs.
"This is exactly the example I am citing - a mundage musical instrument that exists IRL having a -magical- effect in the game. Now, everyone can blow a horn with only a bit of practice, but to -play- a musical instrument (horn or other) does indeed take a bit more skill. Thus... it would only be logical that while everyone can do the warhorn, it might be possible for someone -trained- in music to do more..."
A warhorn is not a musical instrument. It is a horn that plays a single signal sound as a warning. It also takes a lot of practice to use a warhorn, you don't just blow into it lol. You also don't seem to understand that by your own logic everyone can use a sword but it takes a bit more skill. Skill you gain practicing for years with it instead of practicing music which needs the same level of skill.
"Actually... nothing in there contradicts anything. It only states that there is a colledge where people are trained to be bards... which -would- indicate that "bard" might be a guild skill line people can learn after chargen."
Umm actually if you read it it does, maybe do that and respond? Little hint, they teach "Music and History" those aren't useful in an MMO.
Just as the achetype of "adventuring bard" exists in the elder scrolls universe.
They don't even exist in the single player TES games, bards only stay at Inns or residences. You don't even meet them traveling on roads.
"And the concept of "musical magic" does indeed exist in ESO, no matter how much some people are stuck in denial."
LOL the only one in denial is you. Bards don't have "magic music" that is very very well established. The only people that did don't even exist anymore.
Instead of changing TES/ESO you could go play the Witcher games, some D&D inspired games, or the Bard's Quest0 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bard social skill line to buff players outside of combat like swgXbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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For the upteenth time, I am NOT arguing for a -class- I am arguing for an representation of a -archetype- and I would argue just as hard for it NOT being a "class" in the way ESO handles classes!!!Rave the Histborn wrote: »So you're admitting that the "class" you're fighting so hard for never even existed in TES beyond a guideline meant for the absolute beginning of the game and for new players.
I AM arguing the -archetype- DID exist as adventuring type in the elder scrolls lore! And I am arguing that it would be nifty to have it represented in ESO as a guild skill line!
And that distinction ought to have been clear from the link in my Very First Post here!
Sez who?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Second you aren't a smith, you're an adventurer who happens to have these skills.
Who chooses what one person defines themselves with?
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation... they will proudly state that they are "just" a blacksmith, tailor, librarian, wandering merchant, travelling bard... heck, some might even be a proud housewife that just so happens to know more magic then everyone around her!
True, nerfs happen every time they add something new.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Gotcha, so it's just going to cause nerfs because that's what happens every time
But not adding something new... is the death of any game.
So... it may be time people stop worrying and learn how to live with the nerf! ;p
First you say he is trained in the arts. Then you say that doesn't make him a bard. When there is a whole lore article about the badic college that trtains people in those arts... to be called "bards" there after (or skalds if you are nord)Rave the Histborn wrote: »Kings get nicknames based things about them that are extraordinary. Being trained in the arts as a Nord is very out of the ordinary which is where he got his name. He wasn't a bard, he was just more art inclined.
I mean, sure, Jorunn is a -king- and not singing in a tavern for his dinner. But he is exactly the kind of character archetype I am talking about - a character with extra bardic training. So...
Well, AND the whole "paralyzed from the waist down" thing, since the nickname could also translated as "legless", and the more commonly accepted theory is that he suffered from a prenatal spinal mishap of sorts that... well, caused both those effects. And became a king known for his wisdon in later life despite that "cursed birth" (and most likely a really sucky childhood considering how things were among norsemen at that time in history)...Rave the Histborn wrote: »Just a heads up, he didn't get his nickname because he had no bones, but according to historical sources there was 1 "bone" he couldn't get up anymore and hence his nickname.
Look further at his lore.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Same thing, just because he wrote a poem or 2 doesn't make him an actual bard. Look at the Skaald king's lore, he's trained in the arts really young and is a singer (again like all nobility) he just happened to be a noteworthy singer. All Nords are warriors even their kings, but to highlight Jorunn they gave him a name to make him stand out.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Jorunn
Jorunn was never expected to be king, his older sister had the crown, and that is why he tained to be a bard at the Skald's Retreat near Riften... to do something with his life as "third child" - and earned his "Skald" nickname that way, through his -talent- as a singer!Jorunn grew up believing their elder sister, Nurnhilde, was fated to take the throne, and as such became a singer and did quite a bit of traveling. He showed a rare talent as a singer, highly prized among Nords, and was eventually dubbed the "Skald Prince" of Skyrim.
Of course all that changed when the akaviri messed things up, forcing him to lay down his lute and pick up his sword. Noone expected him to best his twin brother for the crown of course, so the fact that the "skald prince" Jorun could win a duel with the "strong prince" Fildgor and become king... was noteworthy. THAT is what made him stand out even before any conquests.
But that only tells us that while -most- bards may be seen as somewhat weak in the fighting (which actually would support their depiction as hybrid build type characters in their other TES incarnations translated into ESO), the option of a bard who also has decent adventuring skills from a different side of their training is not unheard of, and thus could be implemented in some way for our characters.
Although, once again... NOT as a class! IF anything, then as an optional guild skill line that everyone can decide if they want to spend skill points on!
Now that is just plain and simply untrue!!!Rave the Histborn wrote: »A warhorn is not a musical instrument.
Sure it may not have the range of some other instruments... but it IS one by definition! And through centuries of use in music, from ancient times to medieval era... (even though they later upgraded to better instruments, true enough)
I know. I used one. Well, a replica, but still... It takes some practice, true, but once you figure out you need to use your lips and not just blow into the thing... not that much... not for the single signal at least.Rave the Histborn wrote: »It is a horn that plays a single signal sound as a warning. It also takes a lot of practice to use a warhorn, you don't just blow into it lol.
But... it does not just "play a single signal" it really, truly depends on the skill of the one using it. If they Have the skill... they can play a lot more then one note...
Check out the background sounds in this commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1adLTBhoFsc
...more then "one single sound", yes?
Actually, no.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You also don't seem to understand that by your own logic everyone can use a sword but it takes a bit more skill.
Everyone -can- use a sword. You, me, everyone.
(well... everyone with at least one working hand I guess)
There is no magical reason that causes a sword to jump out of the hands of an untrained user.
Of course... to use a sword -properly- or even -well- that takes the very skill and training you speak about!
Without training, a user is just as likely to chip or break their sword (especially if its a slim blade like a katana), or injure themselves or more likely their allies, and of course a trained swordsman will hand them their entrails in short order, but they can still use it for a basic blow.
And THAT is exactly what using a "war horn" for a "single signal sound" is - a basic usage of a musical instrument. And a trained user can do quite a bit more with it even in pure musical sense... so in a world of magic, where that single untrained sound has a magical effect... it stands to reason that it just might be possible to make more varied effects with more skill, does it not?
Yes, they do teach that.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Umm actually if you read it it does, maybe do that and respond? Little hint, they teach "Music and History" those aren't useful in an MMO.
But like I said, musical magic -does- indeed exist, and music taining for someone who already has magic -could- be depicted in more musical magic.
Aaand we are back at my starting point, where I brainstorm about the possibility of a guild skill line made from that notion!
Sure they exist. You can play as one if you so choose, so they -must- exist. Duh.Rave the Histborn wrote: »They don't even exist in the single player TES games, bards only stay at Inns or residences. You don't even meet them traveling on roads.
They might not be all that common, since most bards seem more inclined not to risk their delicate hands adventuring and fighting monsters and all that, but they obviosuly exist.
Of course, they do exist because the archetype exists in fantasy stories in general. And it did long before D&D...
Everyone has "magic music" with "War Horn". So the precedent is there. The developers could expans on it, make it a guild skill line, and it would fit within TES lore as much as anything else. If they so choose.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Bards don't have "magic music" that is very very well established. The only people that did don't even exist anymore.
And actually I myself would care very little for playing as "bard".
I care about ESO getting more diversity, more options! Even options I myself might not find worth exploring, I still will think about what -might- be possible that some people could enjoy picking up for their characters...0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭For the upteenth time, I am NOT arguing for a -class- I am arguing for an representation of a -archetype- and I would argue just as hard for it NOT being a "class" in the way ESO handles classes!!!
I AM arguing the -archetype- DID exist as adventuring type in the elder scrolls lore! And I am arguing that it would be nifty to have it represented in ESO as a guild skill line!
What your asking for doesn't fit into guild lines or professions. It would have to be a class in ESO and as a class it has never actually existed beyond a premade guideline for starting players to begin.
Sez who?
Who chooses what one person defines themselves with?
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation... they will proudly state that they are "just" a blacksmith, tailor, librarian, wandering merchant, travelling bard... heck, some might even be a proud housewife that just so happens to know more magic then everyone around her!
Says the game. You choose a class and all your professions are SECONDARY. This is a pretty easy concept to follow.
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation
Where? When? Even if it is a fantasy archetype it doesn't mean that it fits into every fantasy archetype. I get that you think once it has the fantasy tag that anything goes and you can change it however you want but that's not how it works. There's still rules for the fantasy universe established in these games.
True, nerfs happen every time they add something new.
But not adding something new... is the death of any game.
So... it may be time people stop worrying and learn how to live with the nerf! ;p
Or maybe we can not get dumb nerfs we don't have to live with cuz some people aren't content with emotes. I will agree not adding new content can have bad affects on a game but I think it can be more easily argued that you don't just add content for content's sake. Adding new useless content instead of content people actually is the real death of any game.
Now that is just plain and simply untrue!!!
Sure it may not have the range of some other instruments... but it IS one by definition! And through centuries of use in music, from ancient times to medieval era... (even though they later upgraded to better instruments, true enough)
OMFG please stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_horn
The blowing horn or winding horn is a sound device that is usually made of or shaped like an animal horn, arranged to blow from a hole in the pointed end of it. This rudimentary device had a variety of functions in many cultures, in most cases reducing its scope to exhibiting, celebratory or group identification purposes (signal instrument). On the other hand, it has kept its function and profile in many cattle raising, agricultural and hunter-gatherer societies.
It isn't one by definition. There are musical horns, but a war horn ISN"T A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.
And THAT is exactly what using a "war horn" for a "single signal sound" is - a basic usage of a musical instrument. And a trained user can do quite a bit more with it even in pure musical sense... so in a world of magic, where that single untrained sound has a magical effect... it stands to reason that it just might be possible to make more varied effects with more skill, does it not?
No, even your video shows that it isn't. It also doesn't stand to reason because you keep trying to say the warhorn is magic. It isn't it would be a psychological boost just like in real life.
But like I said, musical magic -does- indeed exist, and music taining for someone who already has magic -could- be depicted in more musical magic.
Aaand we are back at my starting point, where I brainstorm about the possibility of a guild skill line made from that notion!
LOL because you can't get over this easy point. There is no musical magic in TES/ESO. Dwemer used technology and they don't exist anymore and the Yokudan "sword singing" is a technique that involves hyperfast attacks. There are no magical schools that manipulate music in TES lore and there never have been.
Sure they exist. You can play as one if you so choose, so they -must- exist. Duh.
They might not be all that common, since most bards seem more inclined not to risk their delicate hands adventuring and fighting monsters and all that, but they obviosuly exist.
Choosing to RP as a bard doesn't mean they exist in TES LOL it means they exist in your mind and you're a one off anomaly in the world. Also if they "aren't common" by your own admission why would they be turned into a guild line/class? All current classes and guildlines are from major factions that exist in TES lore.
Of course, they do exist because the archetype exists in fantasy stories in general. And it did long before D&D...
Ok cool, well I mean why not add in the One Ring or something like that because they existed before D&D and the archetype of fantasy stories in general. Look just because the Simpsons did it, doesn't mean everyone needs to do it. That's what kills games too, no new ideas, just coping and pasting stuff from other genres.
Everyone has "magic music" with "War Horn". So the precedent is there.
LOL you really need the war horn to be magic or everything else falls apart. Say it with me, "The War Horn is not magic, there is no musical magic."
The developers could expans on it, make it a guild skill line, and it would fit within TES lore as much as anything else. If they so choose.
It's like they've had 20+ years to do that and they haven't soooooooo don't think it'll be happening.
And actually I myself would care very little for playing as "bard".
I care about ESO getting more diversity, more options! Even options I myself might not find worth exploring, I still will think about what -might- be possible that some people could enjoy picking up for their characters...
Well I mean why don't we add some Gundams or giant mechs in then? I mean that would destroy the lore as much as you'd like to and add some absurd stuff for people just because.3 -
Cronopoly✭✭✭✭✭I'd give anything to have a character like my DAoC Bard toon
, which provided really good combat Buffs especially for melee characters, their Stamina regen buff for party members was awesome, and single target heals were good too.
Also they had Mez. short for mezmerize. They could Mez a target at range and as long as no one touched that target it would be frozen still for some time.
In PVP specs they did have an AOE ranged Mez which when used right was deadly. Which was why everyone had Purge on their character. If your purge timer was down you would be frozen for 20+ seconds while the "Train" killed all your friends saving you for last while you couldn't move lol.
However it was their speed song that made them legendary in PVP... Bard Speed 5 was the same speed for your entire group as Maxxed Horse sprint speed. High Level PVP groups of 8 were hell on wheels out in the RVR areas (what you yanks call pvp lol)
If you don't want a Bart don't play one... 1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Now THAT is a complete and utter lie.Rave the Histborn wrote: »What your asking for doesn't fit into guild lines or professions. It would have to be a class in ESO...
Just like "time magic" was made into a Psijic skill line "musical magic" could be made into a bard skill line, in -exactly- the same way.
So it would fit very well into guild lines.
Also, I say again:TheShadowScout wrote: »Heck... take it from the in-game lore:
See?In the 321st year of the 2nd Era, the Potentate gave his approval to the Guilds Act, officially sanctioning the Mages, together with the Guilds of Tinkers, Cobblers, Prostitutes, Scribes, Architects, Brewers, Vintners, Weavers, Ratcatchers, Furriers, Cooks, Astrologers, Healers, Tailors, Minstrals, Barristers, and the Syffim. In the charter, they were no longer called the Syffim, however: bowing to the name it had become known as by the people, they were to be called the Fighters Guild.
"Ministals" otherwise known as "Bards" were among the -first- GULDS officially recognized and sanctioned by the empire in the TES lore about guilds!!!
Heck, it would fit well into guild skill lines without "musical magic" as well, just with a "music and social stuff" passive skill line like TG or DB! Might be less exciting for some, but if the powers that be so choose... that too would be a very valid option to depict "bards" in ESO.
Exactly. Thus... guild skill line.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You choose a class and all your professions are SECONDARY.
As a -secondary- profession to your choosen ESO -class-!
Like I have been saying from the very first post!!
No, there will ALWAYS be nerfings for ANY new stuff.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Or maybe we can not get dumb nerfs...
The only way to avoid nerfings is avoiding new stuff, but without new stuff people will move on to other stuff.
That argument is just plain silly.
The argument -what- new stuff to add... yeah, that is a valid one.
And here people simply disagree.
And I remember the very same disagreements raging over the forums about necromancers... and look what happened!
So, I for one will leave that choice for ZOS to make, and just brainstorm about the -possibilities- of it... but that is why I keep arguing about the -possibilities- of bardic options. I see them. You want to deny them. Guess we will just disagree on the mattter, huh?
Did you even read the article you link to???Rave the Histborn wrote: »It isn't one by definition. There are musical horns, but a war horn ISN"T A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.
...and following that link a bit further...The blowing horn or winding horn is a sound device that is usually made of or shaped like an animal horn, arranged to blow from a hole in the pointed end of it. This rudimentary device had a variety of functions in many cultures, in most cases reducing its scope to exhibiting, celebratory or group identification purposes (signal instrument).
So.A signal instrument is a musical instrument which is not only used for music as such, but also fit to give sound signals as a form of auditive communication, usually in the open air.
There you have it.
A "War Horn" is a signal instrument, which is by official definition a musical instrument.
Checkmate!
Suuuuure.Rave the Histborn wrote: »It also doesn't stand to reason because you keep trying to say the warhorn is magic. It isn't it would be a psychological boost just like in real life.
A "psychological boost" in ESO mechanics might be a gain in weapon/spell damage, or recovery. NOT extra HP! Not reducing critical damage either.
And most of all... a "psychological boost" would NOT have to be fuelled by burning ultimate! Rule of thumb - if it takes a special resource, it is a magical effect, like pretty much every ultimate!
Emric holding a speech to his soldiers is a "psychological boost" (Clivia Tharn kills them all anyway). King Dynar calling out "Noone else dies today" is a psychological boost (he still does in the end).
But all the stuff you spend magica or ultimate on... well, that is magic. Duh.
That is quite untrue again.Rave the Histborn wrote: »There are no magical schools that manipulate music in TES lore and there never have been.
For one, we still have a "musical magical" effect with the war horn, as much as you desperately try to deny that it is a musical instrument in defiance of the official definitions, or that the effect is magical despite burning ultimate.
For another, we have all the dwemer tonal effects, which definitely were "magical technology" and not "just technology", since if you want to claim latter, you would have to show us how non-magical mundane steam age tech could do all the things dwemer stuff can do. And face the facts, tamriel IS a magical world, and dwemer DID use magic to power their tech.
Oh, and we even have a quest in Riften to save a isle full of aspiring bards from a mystical dreamstate brought on... by... guess what? A song played on a magical instrument! And it has to be dispelled by another song being played! So much for music never being magical in tamriel...
And finally... we live in the second era, before all the magic of tamriel was categorized into the "Schools of Magic" system. That is why we don't have one "destruction" school, but the very same kind of spells scatteded over staves and class skills, and so on. And thus it is quite possible within the lore for the developers to add such a skill line to ESO... If They Should Choose To Do It!
You are aware that "bards" are more common then "psijics" in tamriel of the second era, I hope?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Choosing to RP as a bard doesn't mean they exist in TES LOL it means they exist in your mind and you're a one off anomaly in the world. Also if they "aren't common" by your own admission why would they be turned into a guild line/class? All current classes and guildlines are from major factions that exist in TES lore.
...you mean, something like... the Amulet of Kings? Or Ysgrammors Axe? Or the Staff of Magnus? Or the Lightless Remnant? Or the Mortuum Vivicus? Or the Sunna'rah? Or the Heart of Transparent Law?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ok cool, well I mean why not add in the One Ring or something like that...
Because those are exactly "something like that" if you look at how they are used as plot device... the "mighty artefact" that has to be kept/taken away from the antagonist, or recovered from its hiding place, or protected from evil forces, or destroyed, or whatever... and/or brought to a special location to do something that will end their evil plans...
Archetypes are just like that. The basic building blocks of any good story, be it character archetypes, or plot device archetypes. The trick is thinking up enough fluff around them that they work within the story you want to tell...
You DO realize ESO was only released in summer 2014? That is -six- years if you want to count Beta as well, but no more.Rave the Histborn wrote: »It's like they've had 20+ years to do that and they haven't soooooooo don't think it'll be happening.
If you want to count other TES games... well... then you run into the "bard" classes of the first ones again, which as we already covered are different from ESO classes anyhow, but a strong indication of the world builders being favorable to the idea of "adventuring bards" in tamriel...
What do you think the Numidium is behind the "fantasy" tappings?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Well I mean why don't we add some Gundams or giant mechs in then?
In the end, all desperate denials nonwithstanding, its quite possible to have "adventuring bards" for ESO within the lore, without or even with "musical magic".
It all depends if the developers WANT to go there. And that would depend on two other questions - would it fit within their plans for the future, and do they think about people would -pay- for it.
And those questions I will just leave to them, while merely talking about possibilities that at least some people would love to see. Me personally, just want to see more -options- to diversify All our characters, and I care little what flavor they come in!0 -
RebornV3x✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well in other MMOs that have Bard like classes they tend to be some type of group morale or buff type skills or passives that work in variety of ways for example playing a song right before a boss fight that inspires the group and might give you a damage boost for X minutes. I don't see why ESO can't implement this and how I don't see why this is lore breaking.Edited by RebornV3x on January 19, 2020 2:45PMXbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Now THAT is a complete and utter lie.
Just like "time magic" was made into a Psijic skill line "musical magic" could be made into a bard skill line, in -exactly- the same way.
So it would fit very well into guild lines.
Also, I say again: TheShadowScout wrote: »
Heck... take it from the in-game lore:
» show previous quotes
See?
"Ministals" otherwise known as "Bards" were among the -first- GULDS officially recognized and sanctioned by the empire in the TES lore about guilds!!!
The Psijics were a major guild in lore as are every other major guild and guild line except Undaunted (for obvious MMO related reasons). Sorry, the Bards aren't and weren't ever a major guild and don't do anything beyond mistral shows in inns. They would have to be a class cuz of this and they don't belong in ESO as a class.
Heck, it would fit well into guild skill lines without "musical magic" as well, just with a "music and social stuff" passive skill line like TG or DB! Might be less exciting for some, but if the powers that be so choose... that too would be a very valid option to depict "bards" in ESO.
You don't even put thought and effort into your ideas. Oh is it it a bard? Just throw it in everywhere, clearly all the boss fights are missing the "music and social stuff" aspect of guild lines. Maybe we can get that option for HM, we can talk our way out of the fight.
Exactly. Thus... guild skill line.
As a -secondary- profession to your choosen ESO -class-!
Like I have been saying from the very first post!!
But they're not a god damn profession in ESO. It's kinda sad at this point, it's like a child pointing at things. "Well why can't it go here? Why can't it go here? I want it" All the professions craft things and are also related to the housing system. What do you plan on a bard crafting?
"So.
There you have it.
A "War Horn" is a signal instrument, which is by official definition a musical instrument.
Checkmate!;)"
No. lol I'm starting to think you don't know what the definition of music is or what it actually entails.
And most of all... a "psychological boost" would NOT have to be fuelled by burning ultimate! Rule of thumb - if it takes a special resource, it is a magical effect, like pretty much every ultimate!
If it was magic it would use magic. Ultimate is a different resource. That's not anyone's rule of thumb besides yours btw.
For another, we have all the dwemer tonal effects, which definitely were "magical technology" and not "just technology", since if you want to claim latter, you would have to show us how non-magical mundane steam age tech could do all the things dwemer stuff can do. And face the facts, tamriel IS a magical world, and dwemer DID use magic to power their tech.
Ummmm you can't keep saying stuff is magic in the lore and calling it magic because you think it's that. I also don't have to show you anything, it's all in the lore, you have to show me how everything keeps being magic.
Oh hey, random thought, how is it magic if there's no magic user to manipulate this stuff still? I mean magic in TES also means there's a magic caster and people discovering Dwemer ruins would need access to their magic to turn the machines on and have them be powered/controled. Why don't we ever hear of anything like that (hint: it doesn't exist like that, it's technology)
Oh, and we even have a quest in Riften to save a isle full of aspiring bards from a mystical dreamstate brought on... by... guess what? A song played on a magical instrument! And it has to be dispelled by another song being played! So much for music never being magical in tamriel...;)
LOL so the daedra related quest with daedric (demi god that no regular person controls) magic. Yeah bards don't have access to any of that and it's daedric magic not musical lol.
And finally... we live in the second era, before all the magic of tamriel was categorized into the "Schools of Magic" system. That is why we don't have one "destruction" school, but the very same kind of spells scatteded over staves and class skills, and so on. And thus it is quite possible within the lore for the developers to add such a skill line to ESO... If They Should Choose To Do It!
We have games going into the 4th era that don't have musical magic. It doesn't exist.
You are aware that "bards" are more common then "psijics" in tamriel of the second era, I hope?;)
True, but you understand that Psijics in lore even in the 2nd era are a major guild by that time that even commoners have heard stories about for ages at this point. They are more known and established at this point without actually being on Tamriel than bards ever have been outside of 1 guy that would only be known in Skyrim.
...you mean, something like... the Amulet of Kings? Or Ysgrammors Axe? Or the Staff of Magnus? Or the Lightless Remnant? Or the Mortuum Vivicus? Or the Sunna'rah? Or the Heart of Transparent Law?
Because those are exactly "something like that" if you look at how they are used as plot device... the "mighty artefact" that has to be kept/taken away from the antagonist, or recovered from its hiding place, or protected from evil forces, or destroyed, or whatever... and/or brought to a special location to do something that will end their evil plans...
No i mean specifically the One Ring since you're so hellbent on changing everything in game to some how shoehorn something into them that's not meant to be there.
What do you think the Numidium is behind the "fantasy" tappings?;)
THat's wy i brought it up. Your argument is basically "welll just add it cuz ppl might like it" so i figured why not go crazy with it. It's all just magic right?1 -
Lady_Linux✭✭✭✭✭-nerf bardsI simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.
BTW, I use arch too0 -
TheNuminous1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »For the upteenth time, I am NOT arguing for a -class- I am arguing for an representation of a -archetype- and I would argue just as hard for it NOT being a "class" in the way ESO handles classes!!!
I AM arguing the -archetype- DID exist as adventuring type in the elder scrolls lore! And I am arguing that it would be nifty to have it represented in ESO as a guild skill line!
What your asking for doesn't fit into guild lines or professions. It would have to be a class in ESO and as a class it has never actually existed beyond a premade guideline for starting players to begin.
Sez who?
Who chooses what one person defines themselves with?
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation... they will proudly state that they are "just" a blacksmith, tailor, librarian, wandering merchant, travelling bard... heck, some might even be a proud housewife that just so happens to know more magic then everyone around her!
Says the game. You choose a class and all your professions are SECONDARY. This is a pretty easy concept to follow.
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation
Where? When? Even if it is a fantasy archetype it doesn't mean that it fits into every fantasy archetype. I get that you think once it has the fantasy tag that anything goes and you can change it however you want but that's not how it works. There's still rules for the fantasy universe established in these games.
True, nerfs happen every time they add something new.
But not adding something new... is the death of any game.
So... it may be time people stop worrying and learn how to live with the nerf! ;p
Or maybe we can not get dumb nerfs we don't have to live with cuz some people aren't content with emotes. I will agree not adding new content can have bad affects on a game but I think it can be more easily argued that you don't just add content for content's sake. Adding new useless content instead of content people actually is the real death of any game.
Now that is just plain and simply untrue!!!
Sure it may not have the range of some other instruments... but it IS one by definition! And through centuries of use in music, from ancient times to medieval era... (even though they later upgraded to better instruments, true enough)
OMFG please stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_horn
The blowing horn or winding horn is a sound device that is usually made of or shaped like an animal horn, arranged to blow from a hole in the pointed end of it. This rudimentary device had a variety of functions in many cultures, in most cases reducing its scope to exhibiting, celebratory or group identification purposes (signal instrument). On the other hand, it has kept its function and profile in many cattle raising, agricultural and hunter-gatherer societies.
It isn't one by definition. There are musical horns, but a war horn ISN"T A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.
And THAT is exactly what using a "war horn" for a "single signal sound" is - a basic usage of a musical instrument. And a trained user can do quite a bit more with it even in pure musical sense... so in a world of magic, where that single untrained sound has a magical effect... it stands to reason that it just might be possible to make more varied effects with more skill, does it not?
No, even your video shows that it isn't. It also doesn't stand to reason because you keep trying to say the warhorn is magic. It isn't it would be a psychological boost just like in real life.
But like I said, musical magic -does- indeed exist, and music taining for someone who already has magic -could- be depicted in more musical magic.
Aaand we are back at my starting point, where I brainstorm about the possibility of a guild skill line made from that notion!
LOL because you can't get over this easy point. There is no musical magic in TES/ESO. Dwemer used technology and they don't exist anymore and the Yokudan "sword singing" is a technique that involves hyperfast attacks. There are no magical schools that manipulate music in TES lore and there never have been.
Sure they exist. You can play as one if you so choose, so they -must- exist. Duh.
They might not be all that common, since most bards seem more inclined not to risk their delicate hands adventuring and fighting monsters and all that, but they obviosuly exist.
Choosing to RP as a bard doesn't mean they exist in TES LOL it means they exist in your mind and you're a one off anomaly in the world. Also if they "aren't common" by your own admission why would they be turned into a guild line/class? All current classes and guildlines are from major factions that exist in TES lore.
Of course, they do exist because the archetype exists in fantasy stories in general. And it did long before D&D...
Ok cool, well I mean why not add in the One Ring or something like that because they existed before D&D and the archetype of fantasy stories in general. Look just because the Simpsons did it, doesn't mean everyone needs to do it. That's what kills games too, no new ideas, just coping and pasting stuff from other genres.
Everyone has "magic music" with "War Horn". So the precedent is there.
LOL you really need the war horn to be magic or everything else falls apart. Say it with me, "The War Horn is not magic, there is no musical magic."
The developers could expans on it, make it a guild skill line, and it would fit within TES lore as much as anything else. If they so choose.
It's like they've had 20+ years to do that and they haven't soooooooo don't think it'll be happening.
And actually I myself would care very little for playing as "bard".
I care about ESO getting more diversity, more options! Even options I myself might not find worth exploring, I still will think about what -might- be possible that some people could enjoy picking up for their characters...
Well I mean why don't we add some Gundams or giant mechs in then? I mean that would destroy the lore as much as you'd like to and add some absurd stuff for people just because.
You are an angry little man with angry little problems. To assume you know what others want. How you responded to this persons post speaks ages and miles of your personality and easily lets me shut out your opinion.
Warhorns are instruments.
Musical ritual and magic is in TES.
And people DO want a Bardic Skillline/class
If 1 single person requests it. And I do.
Then that means someone wants it for the game. So you cant say what people do or dont want with any confidance. Because you are just simply.
Wrong.1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭EDIT: No I don't think there is a chance of anything Bard related coming out this year and this thread doesn't have anything to specifically do with Skyrim. This post is in response to various Bard discussion that I have seen that has left the impression that people don't exactly understand the Bards in TES franchise So the goal is to hopefully temper expectations
I know alot of people don't want to hear this but I see enough requests for a "Bard class" or "skill line" that I think some air should get cleared up.
Elder Scrolls is not 5E D&D. Bards don't perform spells with songs. Bards are storytellers & songwriters, that's it. If they want combat & magic then they have to learn other skills. Unlike D&D, Bards are nothing special in TES and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
You can already act the part of a bard in Elder Scrolls. Type /lute, /drums, /flute, etc. to play an instrument - there you're a Bard.
- In Skyrim, Bards were just musicians that traveled and collected stories. The Bards college story was about cultural history - not gaining a new power.
- In Oblivion, Bards as a class was basically a Rogue but with a focus on illusion and the social system in the game.
If any skill lines were to be added; alteration & illusion are far more likely than Bard.
There are more lore appropriate possibilities for a class that also would have more utilization than a bard in ESO.
Something that uses - illusion, alteration, and conjuration that is if ZOS wasn't possibly using those for Spellcrafting.
(we'll see at Twitch)
Also the guilds already cover the dialogue options (intimidate, Persuade, Bribery) so I don't see anything a Bard could offer mechanically.
EDIT: basically what I am saying, is that anything a Bard was traditionally known to be able to provide is already covered by various other skill lines & abilities in ESO
On the other hand - there could be plenty of Bard cosmetics in the Crown store. Like when ZOS added the Argonian instrument.
I think this might make it more clear for some people as to why a Bard class or skill line most likely won't be a thing.
The niche role of a bard would fit more in an MMO like World of Warcraft.
BUT If the Skyrim Twitch presentation proves me wrong then feel free to rub it in my face.
Ya you didnt play arena or dagerfall did https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:ClassesEdited by Wifeaggro13 on January 19, 2020 11:35PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Yea, you’re right. I’m the type of player who never follows lore, skips all the dialogue in quests, and doesn’t want to be bothered to learn either. In other words I’m like the majority of players. What matters most is fun gameplay.
I just like being really fast and speed, plus like support roles.
People seem to be on both sides about whether it fits in the lore. I don’t know if it does, don’t care, I still want a bard skill line or class. When you first play a class in a MMO you get attached to the theme, you look for what fits that theme in a new MMO, for me that means healers, Bards, and rogues.Edited by Iskiab on January 20, 2020 12:08AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »EDIT: No I don't think there is a chance of anything Bard related coming out this year and this thread doesn't have anything to specifically do with Skyrim. This post is in response to various Bard discussion that I have seen that has left the impression that people don't exactly understand the Bards in TES franchise So the goal is to hopefully temper expectations
I know alot of people don't want to hear this but I see enough requests for a "Bard class" or "skill line" that I think some air should get cleared up.
Elder Scrolls is not 5E D&D. Bards don't perform spells with songs. Bards are storytellers & songwriters, that's it. If they want combat & magic then they have to learn other skills. Unlike D&D, Bards are nothing special in TES and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
You can already act the part of a bard in Elder Scrolls. Type /lute, /drums, /flute, etc. to play an instrument - there you're a Bard.
- In Skyrim, Bards were just musicians that traveled and collected stories. The Bards college story was about cultural history - not gaining a new power.
- In Oblivion, Bards as a class was basically a Rogue but with a focus on illusion and the social system in the game.
If any skill lines were to be added; alteration & illusion are far more likely than Bard.
There are more lore appropriate possibilities for a class that also would have more utilization than a bard in ESO.
Something that uses - illusion, alteration, and conjuration that is if ZOS wasn't possibly using those for Spellcrafting.
(we'll see at Twitch)
Also the guilds already cover the dialogue options (intimidate, Persuade, Bribery) so I don't see anything a Bard could offer mechanically.
EDIT: basically what I am saying, is that anything a Bard was traditionally known to be able to provide is already covered by various other skill lines & abilities in ESO
On the other hand - there could be plenty of Bard cosmetics in the Crown store. Like when ZOS added the Argonian instrument.
I think this might make it more clear for some people as to why a Bard class or skill line most likely won't be a thing.
The niche role of a bard would fit more in an MMO like World of Warcraft.
BUT If the Skyrim Twitch presentation proves me wrong then feel free to rub it in my face.
Ya you didnt play arena or dagerfall did https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
Yeah, that description pretty much just describes Bretons... no word on magical musics or support. It even says they are a relatively poor class out skilled by basically everyone else.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheNuminous1 wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »For the upteenth time, I am NOT arguing for a -class- I am arguing for an representation of a -archetype- and I would argue just as hard for it NOT being a "class" in the way ESO handles classes!!!
I AM arguing the -archetype- DID exist as adventuring type in the elder scrolls lore! And I am arguing that it would be nifty to have it represented in ESO as a guild skill line!
What your asking for doesn't fit into guild lines or professions. It would have to be a class in ESO and as a class it has never actually existed beyond a premade guideline for starting players to begin.
Sez who?
Who chooses what one person defines themselves with?
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation... they will proudly state that they are "just" a blacksmith, tailor, librarian, wandering merchant, travelling bard... heck, some might even be a proud housewife that just so happens to know more magic then everyone around her!
Says the game. You choose a class and all your professions are SECONDARY. This is a pretty easy concept to follow.
It IS another staple of fantary archetypes to have those who define themselves over their "mundane" job and consider their adventuring their occasional sideline occupation
Where? When? Even if it is a fantasy archetype it doesn't mean that it fits into every fantasy archetype. I get that you think once it has the fantasy tag that anything goes and you can change it however you want but that's not how it works. There's still rules for the fantasy universe established in these games.
True, nerfs happen every time they add something new.
But not adding something new... is the death of any game.
So... it may be time people stop worrying and learn how to live with the nerf! ;p
Or maybe we can not get dumb nerfs we don't have to live with cuz some people aren't content with emotes. I will agree not adding new content can have bad affects on a game but I think it can be more easily argued that you don't just add content for content's sake. Adding new useless content instead of content people actually is the real death of any game.
Now that is just plain and simply untrue!!!
Sure it may not have the range of some other instruments... but it IS one by definition! And through centuries of use in music, from ancient times to medieval era... (even though they later upgraded to better instruments, true enough)
OMFG please stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_horn
The blowing horn or winding horn is a sound device that is usually made of or shaped like an animal horn, arranged to blow from a hole in the pointed end of it. This rudimentary device had a variety of functions in many cultures, in most cases reducing its scope to exhibiting, celebratory or group identification purposes (signal instrument). On the other hand, it has kept its function and profile in many cattle raising, agricultural and hunter-gatherer societies.
It isn't one by definition. There are musical horns, but a war horn ISN"T A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.
And THAT is exactly what using a "war horn" for a "single signal sound" is - a basic usage of a musical instrument. And a trained user can do quite a bit more with it even in pure musical sense... so in a world of magic, where that single untrained sound has a magical effect... it stands to reason that it just might be possible to make more varied effects with more skill, does it not?
No, even your video shows that it isn't. It also doesn't stand to reason because you keep trying to say the warhorn is magic. It isn't it would be a psychological boost just like in real life.
But like I said, musical magic -does- indeed exist, and music taining for someone who already has magic -could- be depicted in more musical magic.
Aaand we are back at my starting point, where I brainstorm about the possibility of a guild skill line made from that notion!
LOL because you can't get over this easy point. There is no musical magic in TES/ESO. Dwemer used technology and they don't exist anymore and the Yokudan "sword singing" is a technique that involves hyperfast attacks. There are no magical schools that manipulate music in TES lore and there never have been.
Sure they exist. You can play as one if you so choose, so they -must- exist. Duh.
They might not be all that common, since most bards seem more inclined not to risk their delicate hands adventuring and fighting monsters and all that, but they obviosuly exist.
Choosing to RP as a bard doesn't mean they exist in TES LOL it means they exist in your mind and you're a one off anomaly in the world. Also if they "aren't common" by your own admission why would they be turned into a guild line/class? All current classes and guildlines are from major factions that exist in TES lore.
Of course, they do exist because the archetype exists in fantasy stories in general. And it did long before D&D...
Ok cool, well I mean why not add in the One Ring or something like that because they existed before D&D and the archetype of fantasy stories in general. Look just because the Simpsons did it, doesn't mean everyone needs to do it. That's what kills games too, no new ideas, just coping and pasting stuff from other genres.
Everyone has "magic music" with "War Horn". So the precedent is there.
LOL you really need the war horn to be magic or everything else falls apart. Say it with me, "The War Horn is not magic, there is no musical magic."
The developers could expans on it, make it a guild skill line, and it would fit within TES lore as much as anything else. If they so choose.
It's like they've had 20+ years to do that and they haven't soooooooo don't think it'll be happening.
And actually I myself would care very little for playing as "bard".
I care about ESO getting more diversity, more options! Even options I myself might not find worth exploring, I still will think about what -might- be possible that some people could enjoy picking up for their characters...
Well I mean why don't we add some Gundams or giant mechs in then? I mean that would destroy the lore as much as you'd like to and add some absurd stuff for people just because.
You are an angry little man with angry little problems. To assume you know what others want. How you responded to this persons post speaks ages and miles of your personality and easily lets me shut out your opinion.
Warhorns are instruments.
Musical ritual and magic is in TES.
And people DO want a Bardic Skillline/class
If 1 single person requests it. And I do.
Then that means someone wants it for the game. So you cant say what people do or dont want with any confidance. Because you are just simply.
Wrong.
It doesnt matter and no one cares if you want it. It doesnt belong in the game.
No.
Only magic is in TES.
No.
Cool, well by your own logic if I request that bards aren't put into the game. And I do. Then that means someone doesn't want it for the game. So you can't say what people do or don't want with any confidence. You are simply.
Wrong.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I am sincerely curious what caused everyone to crawl out of the woodwork to rage on the a bard class. Did this happen when Necro was hinted at or any other class?
I mean, we have established that yes bards exist.
Yes there is even a bard college and a skill listed (the spectral drum that buffs)
We also see that bards were similar to rogues. And we see that they also had an illusion skill line.
Everything else is filling in lines and creative vision.
There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tonal_Architecture
Agreed. I think it comes down to Bard’s weren’t in WoW and people always look back fondly at their first MMO.
It's not really that, you have people asking for a bard class that really doesn't fit into the TES universe and the people asking for it are people that don't really seem to have a grasp on the lore or why it doesn't make sense, they just really want to ERP as a bard.
I mean "There is even history of tonal architecture and sword singing, affecting reality via sound"
Tonal architecture is dwemer lore that no race or class present in the TES lore has access to and hasn't been relevant for thousands of in-game years. The same goes for sword singing with the ancient Yokudans, the techniques were lost to time. Even if you use it to try and establish "magic music" or whatever you'd like it still wouldn't be producible by bards. Tonal architecture requires machines/knowledge of an entire civilization and sword singing is an ultimate technique and thus used by very very few dedicated masters.
Yea, you’re right. I’m the type of player who never follows lore, skips all the dialogue in quests, and doesn’t want to be bothered to learn either. In other words I’m like the majority of players. What matters most is fun gameplay.
I just like being really fast and speed, plus like support roles.
People seem to be on both sides about whether it fits in the lore. I don’t know if it does, don’t care, I still want a bard skill line or class. When you first play a class in a MMO you get attached to the theme, you look for what fits that theme in a new MMO, for me that means healers, Bards, and rogues.
Stopped reading after this but you're not the majority.2 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭Actually. Now that it's been announced... the Antiquities skill might fit a Bard's focus on history and culture. Maybe we're getting more bard than we think?3 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oh yes I am so scared of some-guy playing terrible music, don't throw your flute at me!!
Seriously who would want to be something THAT lame over a Necromancer or a Dragonknight or a Nightblade?2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »EDIT: No I don't think there is a chance of anything Bard related coming out this year and this thread doesn't have anything to specifically do with Skyrim. This post is in response to various Bard discussion that I have seen that has left the impression that people don't exactly understand the Bards in TES franchise So the goal is to hopefully temper expectations
I know alot of people don't want to hear this but I see enough requests for a "Bard class" or "skill line" that I think some air should get cleared up.
Elder Scrolls is not 5E D&D. Bards don't perform spells with songs. Bards are storytellers & songwriters, that's it. If they want combat & magic then they have to learn other skills. Unlike D&D, Bards are nothing special in TES and a D&D class like the Bard just would not thematically fit Elder Scrolls.
You can already act the part of a bard in Elder Scrolls. Type /lute, /drums, /flute, etc. to play an instrument - there you're a Bard.
- In Skyrim, Bards were just musicians that traveled and collected stories. The Bards college story was about cultural history - not gaining a new power.
- In Oblivion, Bards as a class was basically a Rogue but with a focus on illusion and the social system in the game.
If any skill lines were to be added; alteration & illusion are far more likely than Bard.
There are more lore appropriate possibilities for a class that also would have more utilization than a bard in ESO.
Something that uses - illusion, alteration, and conjuration that is if ZOS wasn't possibly using those for Spellcrafting.
(we'll see at Twitch)
Also the guilds already cover the dialogue options (intimidate, Persuade, Bribery) so I don't see anything a Bard could offer mechanically.
EDIT: basically what I am saying, is that anything a Bard was traditionally known to be able to provide is already covered by various other skill lines & abilities in ESO
On the other hand - there could be plenty of Bard cosmetics in the Crown store. Like when ZOS added the Argonian instrument.
I think this might make it more clear for some people as to why a Bard class or skill line most likely won't be a thing.
The niche role of a bard would fit more in an MMO like World of Warcraft.
BUT If the Skyrim Twitch presentation proves me wrong then feel free to rub it in my face.
Ya you didnt play arena or dagerfall did https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
Yeah, that description pretty much just describes Bretons... no word on magical musics or support. It even says they are a relatively poor class out skilled by basically everyone else.
Because those games had generic spell lists all spell casters had access to. And there was no need for support in a single player game. In a MMO it is a critical role not so much in ESO because it's so poorly designed and short sighted. But many man people enjoy the role and or bard class in MMOs. And dont give me the its not TES lore because TES lore is revisionist history.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Oh yes I am so scared of some-guy playing terrible music, don't throw your flute at me!!
Seriously who would want to be something THAT lame over a Necromancer or a Dragonknight or a Nightblade?
What happens if you charm a whole group of adds and send them on a boss. Or throw out a buff that in creases everyone's dps ceiling by 20 % . Does not sound lame any more. Or who about reducing the boss one shot mechanics ?0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
...once.Rave the Histborn wrote: »The Psijics were a major guild in lore...
But they have been cut off from Tamriel and in hiding for what, three and a half centuries or so at the time of ESO? Secluded in their own pocket plane, keeping contact only with very few selected individuals...
Yeah, well, you won't be able to sell THAT as "major guild" in the ESO time frame!
Not whem "major guilds" are like the mages guild that everyone can go and join, or such. Yes, during the events of the summerset questline our vestiges Also get a chance to join... but evryone else couldn't even -reach- the place, lest alone join.
...except when it comes to, oh, the formal declaration of guilds from the emperor?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Sorry, the Bards aren't and weren't ever a major guild...
Let me repeat it once more, from the Hiostory of the Fighters Guild in-game lore:
And there you have it, for the third friggin time! As "major " guild as the fighters guild. Or the ratcatchers guild. Or the Brewers guild. Or any of them.In the 321st year of the 2nd Era, the Potentate gave his approval to the Guilds Act, officially sanctioning the Mages, together with the Guilds of Tinkers, Cobblers, Prostitutes, Scribes, Architects, Brewers, Vintners, Weavers, Ratcatchers, Furriers, Cooks, Astrologers, Healers, Tailors, Minstrals, Barristers, and the Syffim. In the charter, they were no longer called the Syffim, however: bowing to the name it had become known as by the people, they were to be called the Fighters Guild.
Note that the psijics are NOT mentioned, because at that time they were a century in hiding already. Just for comparison.
That's the "crafting skills".Rave the Histborn wrote: »All the professions craft things and are also related to the housing system.
Not the same as "profession" - which could also be a ton of other things, like hunter, explorer, librarian, fisherman, trader or even... warrior!
To educate, a "profession" is an occupation founded upon specialized educational training. Which as a definition would fit a lot more things then just those crafting skills. Yes, even bards...
Usually, stongs, stories and entertainment.Rave the Histborn wrote: »What do you plan on a bard crafting?
Only quoting stuff from wikipedia there. Not my fault when it does not support your opinion.Rave the Histborn wrote: »No. lol I'm starting to think you don't know what the definition of music is or what it actually entails.
True. But definitely -not- a mundane resource like stamina if you look at what it does.Rave the Histborn wrote: »If it was magic it would use magic. Ultimate is a different resource.
I mean, take a peek at all the ultimates, from flaming ground standards to ice storms to various transformations, summonings, or healing fields... and try to make a case for that not being "magic".
I'll wait.
How about...Rave the Histborn wrote: »Oh hey, random thought, how is it magic if there's no magic user to manipulate this stuff still?
But fantasy stories are FULL of tales of magic that lingers long after the magic user who once manipulated it is dust and ashes, and may be triggered by anyone walking past, or acting all on its own following the casters commands. Enchantments, curses, or whatever, its been in fantasy stories as far back as ancient greece that I know of, and likely longer...
If you want to make a case for any of that being mere -technology- you need to show how it can function without magic. Anything up to steam power, or, heck, lets go with early electrical too for all those dwemer sparkly things. Show us how non-magicval tech can make an automation like the dwemer did, or an organ that can affect peoples minds. Go on, we are all waiting.
Actually... deadric princes are known to lend out their power now and then. We have a whole class in eso built on that, they are called sorcerors. Nothing in the lore to stop any bards from making contracts with daedra as well...Rave the Histborn wrote: »LOL so the daedra related quest with daedric (demi god that no regular person controls) magic. Yeah bards don't have access to any of that...
And we don't have bronze swords in medievel games either, which does not prove they never existed.Rave the Histborn wrote: »We have games going into the 4th era that don't have musical magic. It doesn't exist.
I keep saying that ESO is set -before- the mages guild reorganized ALL magic into the schools, and that is the explaination they use to justify their magic being split into a lot of new skill lines. Duh.
The Psijics are known as legends... as in "Yeah, four hundred years ago there used to be psijics all over the place, but then they went away and now... we have the mages guild instead". While bards... are all over the place, singing for their dinner. Now, as you rightly state, those bards are not the fighting type, they just sing and tell stories. But that means... there is nothing in the lore stopping adventurers from learning bardic skills as sideline to their swordsmanship and/or magic. Much like the aforementioned Jorunn did.Rave the Histborn wrote: »True, but you understand that Psijics in lore even in the 2nd era are a major guild by that time that even commoners have heard stories about for ages at this point. They are more known and established at this point without actually being on Tamriel than bards ever have been outside of 1 guy that would only be known in Skyrim.
That sounds like the last gasp of denial from a confused person.Rave the Histborn wrote: »No.
Only magic is in TES.
No.
Of course, it also is true enough in its own way.
There is only magic in the elder scrolls universe.
Magic... in many varying flavors.
Ice magic. Fire magic. Storm magic. Blood magic. Daedric magic. Aedric magic. Death magic. Nature magic. Dragon magic. Soul magic. Earth magic. Mystic magic. Dark magic. Time magic.
And even... musical magic.
And if the powers that be decide to add that to what our ESO characters can pick up as well... they can bloody well do so without any lore-iffyness.
And if they decide otherwise... then there is that, and we will be questing on without it as we have so far.
And until they made a decision (which I doubt the would, since they wouldn't want to close any doors just in case they need something a little extra for some expansion someday down the road), then we can still idly discuss the idea!0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭...once.
But they have been cut off from Tamriel and in hiding for what, three and a half centuries or so at the time of ESO? Secluded in their own pocket plane, keeping contact only with very few selected individuals...
Yeah, well, you won't be able to sell THAT as "major guild" in the ESO time frame!
Not whem "major guilds" are like the mages guild that everyone can go and join, or such. Yes, during the events of the summerset questline our vestiges Also get a chance to join... but evryone else couldn't even -reach- the place, lest alone join.
It's like arguing with someone that's never played and of the games. The Psijics are still a major faction in the TES/ESO universe in ALL THE GAMES. It doesn't matter if they're exclusive they're still major players.
"...except when it comes to, oh, the formal declaration of guilds from the emperor?
Let me repeat it once more, from the Hiostory of the Fighters Guild in-game lore:
In the 321st year of the 2nd Era, the Potentate gave his approval to the Guilds Act, officially sanctioning the Mages, together with the Guilds of Tinkers, Cobblers, Prostitutes, Scribes, Architects, Brewers, Vintners, Weavers, Ratcatchers, Furriers, Cooks, Astrologers, Healers, Tailors, Minstrals, Barristers, and the Syffim. In the charter, they were no longer called the Syffim, however: bowing to the name it had become known as by the people, they were to be called the Fighters Guild.
And there you have it, for the third friggin time! As "major " guild as the fighters guild. Or the ratcatchers guild. Or the Brewers guild. Or any of them."
Ok so they had a founding? That doesn't mean they're a major guild, it means they had to officially be formed by a king and you're saying the rat catchers and prositutes are on par with the Mages and Fighters guilds. Sorry buddy, they're not and neither is the bards.
The Psijics were in hiding because they were Tamriel's most powerful mages and they hid for a reason. They didn't need a king to found their chapter.
That's the "crafting skills".
Not the same as "profession" - which could also be a ton of other things, like hunter, explorer, librarian, fisherman, trader or even... warrior!
Please go play World of Warcraft. You can't link wikipedia articles arbitrarily and you look dumb when you use it because it shows you don't play the game or don't understand the systems.
Usually, stongs, stories and entertainment.
Gotcha so nothing that actually goes with the current systems
Only quoting stuff from wikipedia there. Not my fault when it does not support your opinion.
You can tell because you're not even reading the stuff you quote
True. But definitely -not- a mundane resource like stamina if you look at what it does.
I mean, take a peek at all the ultimates, from flaming ground standards to ice storms to various transformations, summonings, or healing fields... and try to make a case for that not being "magic".
I'll wait.;)
It's not magic, it's ultimate. Are you really that dense? You're also leaving out the Ultimates that are just regular attacks or shield blocks. I understand that your brain can't really understand anything beyond "it's magic" but there's more to this game than that.
But fantasy stories are FULL of tales of magic that lingers long after the magic user who once manipulated it is dust and ashes, and may be triggered by anyone walking past, or acting all on its own following the casters commands. Enchantments, curses, or whatever, its been in fantasy stories as far back as ancient greece that I know of, and likely longer...
If you want to make a case for any of that being mere -technology- you need to show how it can function without magic. Anything up to steam power, or, heck, lets go with early electrical too for all those dwemer sparkly things. Show us how non-magicval tech can make an automation like the dwemer did, or an organ that can affect peoples minds. Go on, we are all waiting.;)
Enchantments LOL I don't have to show you anything about how it works. It is established in the lore that they were technologically superior and didn't really engage much with magic/gods. If you actually knew anything about the games you'd know that kinda their thing and also a big reason why they don't exist anymore. But you don't surprise surprise
Actually... deadric princes are known to lend out their power now and then. We have a whole class in eso built on that, they are called sorcerors. Nothing in the lore to stop any bards from making contracts with daedra as well...
Ummm sorcerors have nothing to do with Daedric and getting magical powers from them at all.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic
Here's a list and the history of magic. Guess what isn't there? (music)
And we don't have bronze swords in medievel games either, which does not prove they never existed.
I keep saying that ESO is set -before- the mages guild reorganized ALL magic into the schools, and that is the explaination they use to justify their magic being split into a lot of new skill lines. Duh.
I mean if you don't have bronze swords and it is a fantasty game it could be because there isn't bronze in that universe and they'd have to skip it so yeah actually it kinda does show they never existed in a game like ESO. You can't really compare a fantasty game to a historical fantasty because there is the whole "historic" part they have to adhere to.
I understand what you keep saying but you don't understand that there are games that go beyond ESO and none of them have this magic in them. Musical magic doesn't exist in the 1st era or the 4th era so for it to suddenly spring up and then be instantly for gotten makes no sense.
The Psijics are known as legends... as in "Yeah, four hundred years ago there used to be psijics all over the place, but then they went away and now... we have the mages guild instead". While bards... are all over the place, singing for their dinner.
So the Pisjics are so incredibly powerful that even not being on the plan of Tamriel people still talk about them and their feats and you're trying to compare it to people that are common in every Inn and village and do nothing noteworthy besides sing about things that happened that they had no part in. They also never went away they still exist and are active just more secretive.
Now, as you rightly state, those bards are not the fighting type, they just sing and tell stories. But that means... there is nothing in the lore stopping adventurers from learning bardic skills as sideline to their swordsmanship and/or magic. Much like the aforementioned Jorunn did.
I mean except Jorunn is a 1 off and a king who'd have had the resources and lots of teachers around him from birth. So I mean yeah you're right, barring nobility, tons of money, and being raised with fighting experience there is nothing stopping bards from adventuring around.
That sounds like the last gasp of denial from a confused person.;)
Of course, it also is true enough in its own way.
There is only magic in the elder scrolls universe.
Magic... in many varying flavors.
Ice magic. Fire magic. Storm magic. Blood magic. Daedric magic. Aedric magic. Death magic. Nature magic. Dragon magic. Soul magic. Earth magic. Mystic magic. Dark magic. Time magic.
And even... musical magic.
And if the powers that be decide to add that to what our ESO characters can pick up as well... they can bloody well do so without any lore-iffyness.
And if they decide otherwise... then there is that, and we will be questing on without it as we have so far.
And until they made a decision (which I doubt the would, since they wouldn't want to close any doors just in case they need something a little extra for some expansion someday down the road), then we can still idly discuss the idea!
No, it's the last grasp of someone that's tired of your points getting shot down and you still bringing them up like they're new and fresh.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic
You keep saying muscial magic but it doesn't exist. Stop it.1 -
Chaos2088✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wardens are an offshoot of Spinners.....
Maybe we might get something like that for Bards?....A magic user who can tear down walls with a boom of their voice, or command the air around them? I personally think it would be cool...
....but if we do get us just running around with music playing, then yeah....no...@Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP0 -
Anumaril✭✭✭✭✭Finally someone said it. All the bard request threads have been grating on my TES-lore-loving soul. This isn't D&D.
On a side note, I do think it would be nice if ZOS expanded upon the musical instrument system in the game to make it similar to how it works in LOTRO. In LOTRO you can actually play individual notes with the number keys, and can upload files to a folder in your game directory to have pre-loaded songs you can play in-game using a written command in the chat bar.
It's a small thing that LOTRO has but I always thought it gave the world a lot of flavour.Edited by Anumaril on January 20, 2020 6:43PM0 -
Unseelie✭✭✭✭Finally someone said it. All the bard request threads have been grating on my TES-lore-loving soul. This isn't D&D.
On a side note, I do think it would be nice if ZOS expanded upon the musical instrument system in the game to make it similar to how it works in LOTRO. In LOTRO you can actually play individual notes with the number keys, and can upload files to a folder in your game directory to have pre-loaded songs you can play in-game using a written command in the chat bar.
It's a small thing that LOTRO has but I always thought it gave the world a lot of flavour.
While I have seen some great uses for this in FFXIV , you can only hear people spamming the Zelda theme or Final Fantasy soundtrack (or these days a song about coin and a Witcher ) favorites all over the place. I like that at least LotRO shows when people are running macros instead of actually playing the notes. Anyone who has played ffxiv though knows what a nuisance it gets to be.Edited by Unseelie on January 20, 2020 6:52PM0
