Blackrose DW/ Resto

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BohnT2
BohnT2
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Hippity Hoppity nerf them properly

Both offer way too strong effects for a low opportunity cost as they can be one barred and beat any other set in terms of survivability especially for then just being 2pc sets
  • BohnT2
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    We're heading directly into another tank meta and those two sets play a big part by making it possible to stall fights vs 1-2 competent enemies as long as you want
  • InvictusApollo
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    Nerflings should be banned. Go away @BohnT2 !
    Everything got nerfed to oblivion because of people like you.
  • Fawn4287
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    Nerflings should be banned. Go away @BohnT2 !
    Everything got nerfed to oblivion because of people like you.

    Yes! Bring back Necro bash build and Sorc heavy overload, and snipe gank builds Im sick of having to use multiple buttons to get kills
  • KingExecration
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    Resto I don’t have issue with, it’s the people spamming blade cloak when they’re low for easy major protection. Just tweak it to have a cooldown or something. The set shouldn’t be on demand major protection to weather out any ult or burst combo by one button.

    I’m all for diversity and weapons being unique but major protection isn’t even on a weapon ult anymore.
  • BohnT2
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    Nerflings should be banned. Go away @BohnT2 !
    Everything got nerfed to oblivion because of people like you.

    No, if you have x Skills/sets/etc which are op of a category Y with X different skills/sets/etc and x<<X you just balance x rather than going through all other things again and risk creating more issues.

    But thanks for making me responsible for nerfs to overperforming stuff, would actually made me proud if it was like this
  • SenpaiNFT
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    + 1 to nerf Blackrose DW and Resto. Both have been overperforming for a good while now.
  • Qbiken
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    You got my vote
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    OP is right, no other set provides such huge buffs.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • LiquidPony
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    This is really another case where Battle Spirit might be used for good.

    Because ... the BRP resto is a key reason many teams are able to reliably clear Lokkestiiz HM.

    But whatever. Might as well throw it on the pile. No one's going to be progressing vSS HM achievements if this patch goes live anyway. Why not put another nail in the coffin.
  • Fischblut
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    They will be nerfed as soon as I start farming and get their perfected versions (as happened with all my hard-earned MA and DSA weapons; I haven't got any perfected AS weapons so they do not nerf them )... :/

    Luckily for me and people who don't want nerfs, I won't go to vet BRP any time soon (if ever), so there will be no nerfs for these weapons :)
    Nerflings should be banned.

    Agree!
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Minor buffs/debuffs should be 8%. Major buffs/debuffs 15%. Change my mind.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • Kadoin
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    I agree, ZOS stop nerfing the skills and punishing everyone who doesn't rely on OP sets like these and address them instead.

    ZOS can go and fight any stam build on the PTS and see the advantage BRP DW gives vs. no BRP DW, and its massive by the way.

    What will it take for ZOS to realize these two weapons are OP? I mean, compare BRP DW to pirate skeleton or BRP resto to Scourge Harvester. All of these are two pieces.

    Now, someone at ZOS probably thinks that BRP DW is more balanced now because of the cost increase they put on blade cloak. You lose stam and a GCD to gain a reduction in damage for 4 seconds.

    The problem is that it isn't exactly true when compared to Pirate Skeleton, which requires you to first take damage to get an 8% chance proc, get major defiled, and has a cooldown longer than its effect. This means pirate skeleton actually has a consequence for the damage reduction and will also cost you mag or stam over its proc interval, because the healing reduction AFTER you take damage is significant enough to require more rolling, blocking, and healing than you may have needed before the proc effect.

    This negates the cost argument of BRP DW and shows why BRP DW will be used in every case. That's not to mention the power of quick cloak, which according to ZOS, has only a 3.7K cost in heavy. Major protection is also strong enough to allow you to heavy attack immediately after you use the skill and negate its cost. That's ignoring the fact that the cost of 3.7K for 4 seconds is less than the 2x Vigor or whatever other heal you might have to use to overcome the effect of major defile on Pirate Skeleton, and not be able to heavy attack. How is this balanced again?


    Now lets look at Scourge Harvester and BRP Resto:

    Scourge Harvester has a cooldown, requires you to be in melee range for the duration of the effect, and also does not have a 100% chance of getting the effect when you need it. The bonus of health also means the effect cannot help provide any extra damage output, unlike mag recovery or stam recovery bonuses.

    Compare that to BRP, which only downside is having to cast steadfast ward. Again, at any range, any time you want you can get the effect of major vitality vs. a % chance effect that requires melee range. By the way, you can also heavy attack and gain enough magicka to keep the ward up 100% of the time because of the significant buff to heals and HoTs by major vitality, just like you can do so with BRP DW's major protection. Again, the only downside to both BRP weapons is cost, but in reality its negated by how powerful the buffs are.

    To make matters worse, ZOS changed healing ward's old function in the past to compensate for this. However, they made a mistake last patch and healing ward heals you every second its active. This change, combined with major vitality is actually OP in my opinion esp. when you account for CP and other methods to increase healing, for the simple fact ward can be cast at any time in combat and HoTs are very powerful on live and the PTS.


    Now, we see why cost increases or even changes to the skills that proc these BRP weapons do NOT help balance them. So exactly why has ZOS allowed these weapons to continue to infest PvP in the game and punish everyone not using them by nerfing the skills instead, which does absolutely nothing to solve the problem with them?

    The cost increase is one of the worse ways to balance these weapons because there also exists races and sets that reduce cost and/or gain sustain to help mitigate the effect of these changes, which means that the changes to cost only affect those that never used the weapons in the first place.

    What these weapons needs is either a change or a cooldown. Not a cost increase on skills everyone uses ZOS. Balance the sets, not the skills. How many times have I typed that about these weapons? I don't know. But 100% uptime on any buff is very powerful, which is why most are restricted to a 5-piece.


    How ZOS continues to ignore these weapons every PTS cycle is a headscratcher. If they nerf healing in general again, decide to strip healing ward of its effect, or decide to increase costs even further instead of balance these sets, then I have lost all faith in the balance team.

    EDIT: Bolded what was most important :D
    Edited by Kadoin on September 18, 2019 10:58AM
  • Kolzki
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    I like them. Having to actively cast a defensive skill on back bar every 3 seconds is a massive cost for the buffs if you wanted to keep them up but they give medium and light armour builds the chance to get out of a tight spot if needed.

    With changes to wrecking blow and draining shot what would be the point in running brp at all if these two sets were nerfed? Should sets that drop from easy dungeons be as strong as perfected gear from the hardest 4 person content in the game?
  • BohnT2
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    Kolzki wrote: »
    I like them. Having to actively cast a defensive skill on back bar every 3 seconds is a massive cost for the buffs if you wanted to keep them up but they give medium and light armour builds the chance to get out of a tight spot if needed.

    With changes to wrecking blow and draining shot what would be the point in running brp at all if these two sets were nerfed? Should sets that drop from easy dungeons be as strong as perfected gear from the hardest 4 person content in the game?

    The sets drop on normal with the exact same effect bar the 1pc bonuses which are only nice for being even more stat dense.
    having to use a skill in order to get the strongest defensive buffs in the game when every you want isn't balanced it's just ruining the game because no competent pvper will ever die with them while even bad ones can stall fights way too long.
  • Kadoin
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    Kolzki wrote: »
    I like them. Having to actively cast a defensive skill on back bar every 3 seconds is a massive cost for the buffs if you wanted to keep them up but they give medium and light armour builds the chance to get out of a tight spot if needed.

    With changes to wrecking blow and draining shot what would be the point in running brp at all if these two sets were nerfed? Should sets that drop from easy dungeons be as strong as perfected gear from the hardest 4 person content in the game?

    Meanwhile they nerf everyone else because of two weapons, contributing even more to making them OP, and other 2-pieces have drawbacks and consequences for their use. Hmm...
  • Kolzki
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    This discussion happens every time a source of major buffs/debuffs with 30% bonuses appears. Hence nerfs to pirate skele, scourge harvester, lingering health pots, and necros over the years. Is it possible that the thing that needed nerfing in the first place was the overturned buffs rather than the sets that grant access to them?
  • BohnT2
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    Kolzki wrote: »
    This discussion happens every time a source of major buffs/debuffs with 30% bonuses appears. Hence nerfs to pirate skele, scourge harvester, lingering health pots, and necros over the years. Is it possible that the thing that needed nerfing in the first place was the overturned buffs rather than the sets that grant access to them?

    Ofc 30% on major buffs is busted and it would be a huge step up if it got nerfed to 8/20 or 8/15 for minor & major
  • BrokenGameMechanics
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    [quote="Kadoin;c-6344148"
    Now, someone at ZOS probably thinks that BRP DW is more balanced now because of the cost increase they put on blade cloak. You lose stam and a GCD to gain a reduction in damage for 4 seconds.
    [/quote]

    It is 3 secs and not 4 and yea that second matters. 3 secs is extremely short. AFAIT this BRP DW thing is just a few core of bitter Pirate Skeleton PVP folk. Get over it and move on.

    Light Armor dude fires of a 4-6K damage shield that lasts 6 secs, no problem. A Med Armor dude fires off BRP DW and will avoid 3K of damage on a 10K hit and game balance is totally destroyed.

    It is honestly not a problem. Pirate Skel was a "passive", BPR DW requires tactical play. Sure you can spam it, or shields, or streak, or heals, or Dodgeroll, or Vigor or FM or many things.

  • Kadoin
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    It is 3 secs and not 4 and yea that second matters. 3 secs is extremely short. AFAIT this BRP DW thing is just a few core of bitter Pirate Skeleton PVP folk. Get over it and move on.

    Light Armor dude fires of a 4-6K damage shield that lasts 6 secs, no problem. A Med Armor dude fires off BRP DW and will avoid 3K of damage on a 10K hit and game balance is totally destroyed.

    It is honestly not a problem. Pirate Skel was a "passive", BPR DW requires tactical play. Sure you can spam it, or shields, or streak, or heals, or Dodgeroll, or Vigor or FM or many things.


    3-4 seconds matter when its spammable and you can just heavy attack once to get the resources you used back on it or more if you happen to roll and have tactician cp? Not to me :D

    Are you seriously comparing a proc set to shields, an active skill? Yeah, its the same when shields have a 4K+ cost after wearing 5 pieces light armor, require investment into magicka at a loss for stam and mag (less rolling and blocking, plus might also have a negative effect on offensive power depending on your class), and do not resist and reduce all damage in the game? Just no.

    Both these weapons require little to no investment to use to the point you can slot them on mag and stam builds with little consequence just for the proc. By the way: streak, damage shields, heals, dodgeroll, vigor, FM, etc. are all usuable while you have these weapons on further proving why they are a problem in the first place.

    Also, have you tried beating a shield with a sorc woke enough to be using BRP DW and sustaining stam?

    Just wait for it to become mainstream...then the sorc class will be the problem and not the gear. I'm not about to let that happen.

    EDIT: fixed quote
    Edited by Kadoin on September 18, 2019 1:32PM
  • Olupajmibanan
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    Like we don't suffer enough nerfs in Dragonhold. Let's ask for more!!!!!!

    1weagnc6qnn2.jpg
  • Qbiken
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    [quote="Kadoin;c-6344148"
    Now, someone at ZOS probably thinks that BRP DW is more balanced now because of the cost increase they put on blade cloak. You lose stam and a GCD to gain a reduction in damage for 4 seconds.

    It is 3 secs and not 4 and yea that second matters. 3 secs is extremely short. AFAIT this BRP DW thing is just a few core of bitter Pirate Skeleton PVP folk. Get over it and move on.

    Light Armor dude fires of a 4-6K damage shield that lasts 6 secs, no problem. A Med Armor dude fires off BRP DW and will avoid 3K of damage on a 10K hit and game balance is totally destroyed.

    It is honestly not a problem. Pirate Skel was a "passive", BPR DW requires tactical play. Sure you can spam it, or shields, or streak, or heals, or Dodgeroll, or Vigor or FM or many things.

    [/quote]

    Lets check what using BRP Dual-Wield offers:

    - Major Expedition
    - Major Evasion
    - Major Protection
    - The ability to proc the enchants from the dual-wield (backbar) on your frontbar on cooldown.

    All of these are on demand, which is what makes BRP Dual-Wield overloaded. There´s nothing "tactical" about going to your backbar and use a skill whenever you need to.

    And don´t get me started on BRP restostaff. Never seen a single piece of set/gear being such a huge carry that it is.
  • BrokenGameMechanics
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    Kadoin wrote: »

    3-4 seconds matter when its spammable and you can just heavy attack once to get the resources you used back on it or more if you happen to roll and have tactician cp? Not to me :D

    Are you seriously comparing a proc set to shields, an active skill? Yeah, its the same when shields have a 4K+ cost after wearing 5 pieces light armor, require investment into magicka at a loss for stam and mag (less rolling and blocking, plus might also have a negative effect on offensive power depending on your class), and do not resist and reduce all damage in the game? Just no.

    Both these weapons require little to no investment to use to the point you can slot them on mag and stam builds with little consequence just for the proc. By the way: streak, damage shields, heals, dodgeroll, vigor, FM, etc. are all usuable while you have these weapons on further proving why they are a problem in the first place.

    Also, have you tried beating a shield with a sorc woke enough to be using BRP DW and sustaining stam?

    Just wait for it to become mainstream...then the sorc class will be the problem and not the gear. I'm not about to let that happen.

    EDIT: fixed quote

    Lets stop with the 3-4 and say what it is which is 3 secs. And do you really think the combo "Fire cloak, dodgeroll in front of my opponent, stand there and hold a HA to go off to restore stam and get a knockdown" is THE OP meta skill combo that is causing all this major bed wetting?

    And what is with your "proc set" confusion? Fire cloak with BRP DW and you get 3 secs Major Protection and yep there are Sets where you you fire off a shield you get +800 or something health regen plus many similar sets that synergize with a shield activation. Many in fact. What is your confusion here on comparison?

    OK so now we are at the crux of you anxiety. You are worried that Stam Sorcs when BRP DW goes "mainstream". BRP DW has been out for a long time. By this point everyone has played around with it. To date Stam Sorcs Gone Wild with BRP DW hasn't hit the forums. Don't know enough Sorc to state that this is the Balance Meta Menace waiting to happen. Off the top of my head, I'd think if you build and use a Stam Sorc you are probably an experienced end game player. If running BRP DW pushed them into the Super Meta category, I'd think they would have figured it out by know. Stam Sorc in old Pirate Skel problem, with BRP DW I don't see the problem at this time.
  • Kadoin
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    Lets stop with the 3-4 and say what it is which is 3 secs. And do you really think the combo "Fire cloak, dodgeroll in front of my opponent, stand there and hold a HA to go off to restore stam and get a knockdown" is THE OP meta skill combo that is causing all this major bed wetting?

    And what is with your "proc set" confusion? Fire cloak with BRP DW and you get 3 secs Major Protection and yep there are Sets where you you fire off a shield you get +800 or something health regen plus many similar sets that synergize with a shield activation. Many in fact. What is your confusion here on comparison?

    OK so now we are at the crux of you anxiety. You are worried that Stam Sorcs when BRP DW goes "mainstream". BRP DW has been out for a long time. By this point everyone has played around with it. To date Stam Sorcs Gone Wild with BRP DW hasn't hit the forums. Don't know enough Sorc to state that this is the Balance Meta Menace waiting to happen. Off the top of my head, I'd think if you build and use a Stam Sorc you are probably an experienced end game player. If running BRP DW pushed them into the Super Meta category, I'd think they would have figured it out by know. Stam Sorc in old Pirate Skel problem, with BRP DW I don't see the problem at this time.

    1. I don't got no anxiety, if PvP or balance becomes a cesspool on the game I simply won't play it. I have no real ulterior motive to defend or attack anything in or out of the game. I only give honest feedback.

    2. Stam builds and BRP DW, they are strong, yeah. But want to know what's stronger? A mag or hybrid build with them on live stacking DoTs. The only change needed on the PTS is to stack direct damage and put 1-2 DoT proc sets on the same exact builds. In other words, the only constant factor in those OP builds happen to be these BRP weapons. I don't know how you conclude something is OP, but that is how I do it. And I hope that is how ZOS will do so in the future instead of nerfing skills into oblivion because people want to crutch on two weapons.

    3. Sets that give a bonus to health recovery on shield? You mean 5-piece sets that cannot compare to major protection or major vitality? After radiating and other HoTs, major protection and major vitality make the health recover look like a joke on that set, esp. since it can be cut by defile, while major protection damage reduction effectively offers more hp regen over the same interval by damage reduction & vitality does as well once you factor in crit healing. Don't forget that is also offered by a 2-piece and not a 5-piece which is part of the reason why its OP in the first place, besides the fact that it has no cooldown.

    4. 5-piece sources of both buffs have cooldowns associated with them and/or negative effects: Daedric Trickery, Steadfast Hero, Ironblood, and whatever else ZOS will add or exists.No such CD or negative effect exists on both of those BRP weapons, meaning a 2-piece is superior to a 5-piece. The only comparabile 2-piece Pirate Skeleton & Maulbreath also have either negative effect or downsides The last time that a 2-piece eclipsed a 5-piece set with no drawbacks was with Earthgore, and we see what eventually happened there.

    5. To say that you would not be able to heavy attack after using the skill and cloaking is a you problem. It doesn't change the fact that is possible, and you would be able to keep the damage reduction up 100% by doing so. Actually, its great you bring up cloak, playing NB? BRP DW is so superior to any other source of major protection you don't even have to worry about slotting an ult for it, now do you?

    6. Stop trying to downplay the fact that its OP because you use it.
  • Lughlongarm
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    The DW is fine fore sure. The resto staff got an indirect buff from the healing ward changes, only aspect I can think about that worth reviewing.
  • Kadoin
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    The DW is fine fore sure. The resto staff got an indirect buff from the healing ward changes, only aspect I can think about that worth reviewing.

    So if it's a stam weapon giving a ridiculous bonus, its fine, but if its a mag one its not? Yeah, I cannot see the bias here...

    You can't make these forums up! :D
  • Kolzki
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    In the most recent patch those brp dw weapons are keeping me in medium armour rather than joining the heavy armour club. Otherwise i guess I could accept a life of running away and slot cowards gear.
  • Lughlongarm
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    Kadoin wrote: »

    So if it's a stam weapon giving a ridiculous bonus, its fine, but if its a mag one its not? Yeah, I cannot see the bias here...

    You can't make these forums up! :D

    You obviously did not understand my comment and jumped to a false conclusion.

    When Blackrose weapons were designed and and balanced, healing word behaved differently. The healing from the skill could not benefit from the buff of the Blackrose resto staff because the buff is for 3 sec and you used to get the heal after 6 sec.
    Last patch it was changed so healing ward starts to heal from the moment its being cast and therefore benefits from its own buff. This double dip scenario was part of the original design and that's why I said it is the only thing that could be reviewed(didn't say you have to nerf it) The DW behaves exactly the same compared to when the weapon set was introduced, if anything it has been nerfed due to cost increase of blade cloak.

    And BTW, I play magicka Warden and I don't have access to either weapons. So ya....
  • Kadoin
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    You obviously did not understand my comment and jumped to a false conclusion.

    When Blackrose weapons were designed and and balanced, healing word behaved differently. The healing from the skill could not benefit from the buff of the Blackrose resto staff because the buff is for 3 sec and you used to get the heal after 6 sec.
    Last patch it was changed so healing ward starts to heal from the moment its being cast and therefore benefits from its own buff. This double dip scenario was part of the original design and that's why I said it is the only thing that could be reviewed(didn't say you have to nerf it) The DW behaves exactly the same compared to when the weapon set was introduced, if anything it has been nerfed due to cost increase of blade cloak.

    And BTW, I play magicka Warden and I don't have access to either weapons. So ya....

    Both of these weapons have been complained about since they were introduced. And in face, healing ward lost its initial heal it had before BRP resto was introduced to "balance" the weapon.

    Also, if you don't use or have never used/experienced either weapon in any form, how exactly can you call for a buff or nerf of either? Somehow I have to hit the doubt button that you don't have either.
  • Lughlongarm
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    Kadoin wrote: »

    Both of these weapons have been complained about since they were introduced. And in face, healing ward lost its initial heal it had before BRP resto was introduced to "balance" the weapon.

    Also, if you don't use or have never used/experienced either weapon in any form, how exactly can you call for a buff or nerf of either? Somehow I have to hit the doubt button that you don't have either.

    BRP weapons and the changes to Steadfast Ward and the changes to evasion were introduced in the same patch( murkmire patch). So you can be 100% that BRP was designed and balanced around to work with a version of Steadfast Ward that cannot synerise with itself. Now it can synerise with itself. That's the difference. This aspect could be reviewed(and perhaps it had been).


    Regarding your second question, You are in the PTS forum, so with that in mind, I'll give you the chance to figure it out.
  • Kadoin
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    BRP weapons and the changes to Steadfast Ward and the changes to evasion were introduced in the same patch( murkmire patch). So you can be 100% that BRP was designed and balanced around to work with a version of Steadfast Ward that cannot synerise with itself. Now it can synerise with itself. That's the difference. This aspect could be reviewed(and perhaps it had been).


    Regarding your second question, You are in the PTS forum, so with that in mind, I'll give you the chance to figure it out.

    And yet, even then it was and still is the go-to weapon, and still will be in the future as long as it remains as-is. That's because it doesn't need to "synergize with itself" when it affects every heal in the game. No one is going to only slot healing ward as their only heal, if they do and use this weapon, then they're essentially proving how OP it is in the first place because the weapon then helps them also save slots on other heals.

    Both that weapon and BRP DW achieve the same exact effect through different means in reality: extreme survivability on-demand that is unobtainable anywhere else with no real drawback, esp. since the skills themselves are getting nerfed to compensate for the set effects resulting in a nerf to anyone not using it vs. those that are.

    They both also allow you to build for more damage and sustain when compared to a build that isn't using them or uses the alternative sources of both of those buffs, again, negating the balance through cost adjustments.

    It's not balanced in its current state, and ZOS is helping them become even more unbalanced by touching the skills instead of the sets. Too bad the balance team doesn't see it that way, and apparently players want to defend these weapons and get nerfed more.
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