Update 24 and the Dragonhold DLC Game Pack are both now available for testing on the PTS! Experience the amazing conclusion to the Season of the Dragon saga. You can read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493609/ 

U23 Combat Q&A

  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    Can I reflect a Leaping DK right back to where he came from?
    LOL :D

    Ok ZOS. Make this happen, I'd pay good money to see that in action B)
  • angelncelestine
    angelncelestine
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    peacenote wrote: »
    Gina, ty for the notes. The rest of my comments not directed at you specifically as you are awesome.

    ***

    For me, getting the healing questions answered is almost a "careful what you wish for" situation:

    In general, why were there so many changes to healers in this update?
    The weapon lines audit resulted in healing abilities getting altered to fit our standards for ability usage. This, combined with the overall desire to improve client and server performance, meant that some healing abilities which relied on layering or multi-casting needed to be changed.


    How will you be monitoring the changes to PvE healing and how it impacts the live game going forward?
    We have several metrics that measure the completion rate of trials and dungeons and can clearly see whether those rates go up or down. We also regularly play on the live servers to see how the changes affect things.


    To me, this completely confirms that NONE of the healing changes were actually aimed at making healing MORE fun or MORE relevant. Worse than that, the role definitely was collateral damage for other goals as I am guessing the focus on the weapon lines was not really about healing! Worst of all, the measurement by which ZOS is checking whether healing needs to be adjusted is completion rate!! Not, whether dungeon groups are still bringing a dedicated healer or whether trials are still bringing two healers and whether healers in those roles are actually using healing skills. Or whether players per account are choosing the healing role more or less than before.

    Even if you LOVE the changes (which I do not, but that is not the point right now), to me this is a huge punch in the gut. I knew and logically explained through my posts how the changes were likely not driven by a vision to bolster the healing role and make it more dynamic, but somehow seeing this confirmed makes me feel worse. :s :'( Maybe ignorance really is bliss sometimes...

    Well said. This patch didn't make healers more relevant what so ever. If anything it only made things worse. IMO there is something seriously wrong with the healer role when one healer is now asked to wear a set like Z'en in a vet trial. Which if you don't know the set it pretty much makes a healer a dot dps with a few heals.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    ✭✭
    peacenote wrote: »
    Gina, ty for the notes. The rest of my comments not directed at you specifically as you are awesome.

    ***

    For me, getting the healing questions answered is almost a "careful what you wish for" situation:

    In general, why were there so many changes to healers in this update?
    The weapon lines audit resulted in healing abilities getting altered to fit our standards for ability usage. This, combined with the overall desire to improve client and server performance, meant that some healing abilities which relied on layering or multi-casting needed to be changed.


    How will you be monitoring the changes to PvE healing and how it impacts the live game going forward?
    We have several metrics that measure the completion rate of trials and dungeons and can clearly see whether those rates go up or down. We also regularly play on the live servers to see how the changes affect things.


    To me, this completely confirms that NONE of the healing changes were actually aimed at making healing MORE fun or MORE relevant. Worse than that, the role definitely was collateral damage for other goals as I am guessing the focus on the weapon lines was not really about healing! Worst of all, the measurement by which ZOS is checking whether healing needs to be adjusted is completion rate!! Not, whether dungeon groups are still bringing a dedicated healer or whether trials are still bringing two healers and whether healers in those roles are actually using healing skills. Or whether players per account are choosing the healing role more or less than before.

    Even if you LOVE the changes (which I do not, but that is not the point right now), to me this is a huge punch in the gut. I knew and logically explained through my posts how the changes were likely not driven by a vision to bolster the healing role and make it more dynamic, but somehow seeing this confirmed makes me feel worse. :s :'( Maybe ignorance really is bliss sometimes...

    Well said. This patch didn't make healers more relevant what so ever. If anything it only made things worse. IMO there is something seriously wrong with the healer role when one healer is now asked to wear a set like Z'en in a vet trial. Which if you don't know the set it pretty much makes a healer a dot dps with a few heals.

    That’s an interesting point, and ties together a few issues. I agree that a player that is using 5 DoTs is more of a DPS than a healer at that point, so really the meta has shifted from 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 stam DPS to 2 tanks, 1 healer, 8 stam DPS and 1 mag DPS. Basically instead of replacing one of the stam with a mag, they replaced a healer. I suspect the main cause of this is the DPS gap between stam and mag; many groups were unwilling to give up one of their stamcros.

    It also comes down to group support gear. With one healer + 1 mag DPS you can cover Olorime, IA, Martial Knowledge, and Z’en’s. 2 tanks can bring Yoln, Ebon, Hircines, and Torugs. And Alkosh and Morag Tong can be used on Stam DPS. If additional support sets were required or even beneficial, that would be a reason to bring another healer, but things like Worm and Sanctuary are not needed by top groups.

    I think the solution here, is to release a couple more healer sets that help the group more than one more stamcro (even something like a change to make Powerful Assault more reliable would help). Or to create content that requires a group with more diverse builds so that things like Worm become beneficial again.
  • Ramber
    Ramber
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    Then why hasnt performance improved?
  • eso_lags
    eso_lags
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno

    PvP

    Are you satisfied with the current implementation of Volendrung?
    Yes. It does what it was designed to do, which is to cause mass chaos for a short while, then when its gone, things return back to normal.

    Are there any changes planned for the faction lock system?
    In this latest update, there are now pre-warnings when you log into the game in Cyrodiil preventing unintentional locking. We currently have no plans to remove the faction lock system.


    Come on really? Its like the patch notes. This is all pvp gets? I know for a fact there are tons of other pvp combat related questions, mainly about issues, abilities, and performance but still. No comment again?
    Edited by eso_lags on August 27, 2019 9:36PM
    eso lags
    XB NA CP 1100+
    PC NA CP 300+

  • Wayshuba
    Wayshuba
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    eso_lytw8 wrote: »
    I appreciate pushing to get this out over the weekend. I also appreciate addressing homogenization, more importantly recognizing that they have indeed homogenized the classes and that they will be addressing this. It's interesting there is no mention of the upcoming passive audit that would have certainly resulted in complete loss of class identity. It feels like someone high up took the reigns and has turned the ship in a different direction. Instead of wiping out all the passives at once they will focus on class by class moves. I am concerned about them rebuilding one or two classes at a time. But this might be a smart marketing move, come back and play the new and more powerful DK this patch.

    I am also concerned with how do they intend to add back in class uniqueness. The classes were already unique and they have effectively removed this over time for the sake of balance. As soon as you add something unique back in it will cause a PVP stir and we are back to where we were before. Think about it, next patch DK's get unique abilities while all other classes are stuck with generic world skills. I would really like them to share an example of how they plan to do this.

    I also like that they have called out that all classes should be able to play all roles, but some classes should bring unique features to the table making them potential better for certain circumstances. Again they are saying the right things, but lack any evidence they can pull this off.

    So I will say I am encouraged that someone at ZOS has actually listened to the PVE community for once and is at least is stating that they need to fix things. I am disappointed it took so much effort to be heard. I am will continue to stay unsubbed, but have hopes they will follow through with this new direction. If they do before something better comes around I may return.


    What? Addressing this? It wasn't a problem before this patch. Sure some adjustments needed to be made but not in the sweeping and drastic manner they did it. Now there are problems all over the place thanks to this patch. PvP is frustrating as heck right now (and boring as heck too with the same three builds all over the place). The problem at this point is that they will lose players over this who aren't going to wait three or six months for the fixes.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    Stamina self-healing independent of class skill lines and Vigour (A *PvP-gated* ability) is abysmal. We need more stamina self-heals, they don't have to be as powerful as Vigour, but they need to be present, and class-independent.

    Rally was the only decent self-heal for many builds, and it was severely weakened with this update, so it's obvious we need more stamina heals we don't need to go to Cyrodiil/IC/BGs for.
  • StabbityDoom
    StabbityDoom
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober Hi, just out of clarity sake, because I may have misread, does this mean that more, or all, of the AOEs are eventually going to removed?

    Secondly, is there a chance of them being reinstated after the performance issues have been dealt with?
    PC/NA
    EHT zealot
  • Aurelle1
    Aurelle1
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    [quote="KillsAllElves
    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober Hi, just out of clarity sake, because I may have misread, does this mean that more, or all, of the AOEs are eventually going to removed?

    Secondly, is there a chance of them being reinstated after the performance issues have been dealt with?

    Why, just why would @ZOS want to get rid of all or even most of AOEs, when more than half the mobs in the game come in multiples? That would be crazy.....but maybe that in itself answers the question.

  • lordrichter
    lordrichter
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    Aurelle1 wrote: »
    Why, just why would @ZOS want to get rid of all or even most of AOEs, when more than half the mobs in the game come in multiples? That would be crazy.....but maybe that in itself answers the question.

    Limit easy mode? :smile:
    Edited by lordrichter on August 28, 2019 9:07PM
    PC North America since March 2014
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say NO to Crown Crates!
    I collect free, unopened, virgin Crown Crates! 331, so far!

  • eso_lytw8
    eso_lytw8
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    Wayshuba wrote: »
    eso_lytw8 wrote: »
    I appreciate pushing to get this out over the weekend. I also appreciate addressing homogenization, more importantly recognizing that they have indeed homogenized the classes and that they will be addressing this. It's interesting there is no mention of the upcoming passive audit that would have certainly resulted in complete loss of class identity. It feels like someone high up took the reigns and has turned the ship in a different direction. Instead of wiping out all the passives at once they will focus on class by class moves. I am concerned about them rebuilding one or two classes at a time. But this might be a smart marketing move, come back and play the new and more powerful DK this patch.

    I am also concerned with how do they intend to add back in class uniqueness. The classes were already unique and they have effectively removed this over time for the sake of balance. As soon as you add something unique back in it will cause a PVP stir and we are back to where we were before. Think about it, next patch DK's get unique abilities while all other classes are stuck with generic world skills. I would really like them to share an example of how they plan to do this.

    I also like that they have called out that all classes should be able to play all roles, but some classes should bring unique features to the table making them potential better for certain circumstances. Again they are saying the right things, but lack any evidence they can pull this off.

    So I will say I am encouraged that someone at ZOS has actually listened to the PVE community for once and is at least is stating that they need to fix things. I am disappointed it took so much effort to be heard. I am will continue to stay unsubbed, but have hopes they will follow through with this new direction. If they do before something better comes around I may return.


    What? Addressing this? It wasn't a problem before this patch. Sure some adjustments needed to be made but not in the sweeping and drastic manner they did it. Now there are problems all over the place thanks to this patch. PvP is frustrating as heck right now (and boring as heck too with the same three builds all over the place). The problem at this point is that they will lose players over this who aren't going to wait three or six months for the fixes.

    We actually completely agree. Note that I stated I have already unsubscribed and no longer play so although I am encouraged they are at least saying the right things I have stopped playing the game. They have already lost my money, I've been a subscribing member for over 4 years and have purchased crowns on numerous occasions. Plus I have purchased each major expansion. I think I am the type of customer they want, but apparently not since all they had to do to keep me was stop all changes intended to balance the classes, skills, races, whatever it is they want to balance. All they had to do was just stop doing this work and they would still have my money.

    I agree I don't think they have the 3, 6 or 9 months that will be needed to bring the classes back to where they were and when they do they will be no better off. My only point was this was the first time I have heard them at least say the right thing with respect to the changes.

    < Xbox NA PVE >
  • anadandy
    anadandy
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    A lot of the feedback given on the werewolf changes don’t appear to be actioned upon. Why were no additional adjustments made?
    We believe the werewolf is in a relatively good state balance-wise at the moment, but are continuing to monitor the live servers to see how things shake out.

    You know, we really should agree on a safe word before you slap WW players in the face like that.

    How, precisely, did the dev team arrive at this belief?

    Same way they came to the belief that the Bosmer passive changes were a good idea. 'Cuz reasons.
    Edited by anadandy on August 29, 2019 7:04PM
  • eso_lytw8
    eso_lytw8
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    Hi all,

    I'm usually not the one writing in Forums, official chats or whatever (long story s. below)- I'm just one of the silent legion, usually perfectly satisfied in playing my favourite char(s), chatting and doing content with guildmates, crafting, farming and working hard to improve equip, skills and appearance of my characters (as often as I may die- I die stylish!).
    I have a demanding full time job, friends, family and some other hobbies beyond ESO, but I daresay I'm a dedicated hobbyist player, spending (or have spent) a significant amount of money and time in the game -without regrets so far. I'm doing this, because I enjoy the time with my guildmates and I love the quests and the game overall. Grinding and farming I see as a part of the game- to a certain extent.

    I don't have the pretension to play in High End Guilds in between the best players worldwide- It's very much comparing the local soccer team you're playing with twice a week with the international (professional) champions league. First one you're joining because of the fun of it and because you (mostly) like the people you're playing with- in the champion's league you're playing because you're earning you're money with and/ or your doing it to be successfull in what you do (doesn't matter with whom).
    I am and always will be playing for the fun of it- but I do like some challenges.

    Furthermore, as a dedicated healer I'll never succeed in vMA, as long as you can't heal your way through (It's completely lost to me why ou need to grind SOLO content to qualify for GROUP events, but that's another question) So, all in all I don't consider myself to be a high-end player (but see me healing!!)
    ESO always has been an extremely DPS driven game, but more more this produces deeply strange effects. High end guilds nowadays don't even have to bother with boss mechanics in vet raids, just ignoring them with nuking everything down in such a short time, that mechanics just don't apply. In non-dlc vet dungeons nobody burdens the group with a dedicated healer anymore- just lenghtens the time you need to finish it (especially after U23)- DPS rules!

    Meanwhile the gap between normal raids and vet raids is so extreme, that you can do the normal ones with random groups (!!) while the vet ones are far beyond anything an unprofessional/ hobbyist group can master (even with coordination, lenghtly farmed gear and everything- they just don't reach the DPS). What you need is many DDs who spent hours and hours of optimising their Rota on dummies in order to push damage output. Anything else is irrelevant. The fun you have playing your class is irrelevant, as long as you have the DPS you need to have to success (some may enjoy hitting training dummies for optimisation, but I daresay for most players it isn't or it's only fun for a very limited time).
    You even can't train the mechanics in normal raids, because they just don't happen. Healers are a nice to have, but only necessary for the unexperienced or lowlevels (or a middleclass tank- the good one don't need a dedicated healer in normal raids).
    With U23 ZOS diminished the DPS of middleclass DDs to a level where even some DLC Vet dungeons can't be finished with non- optimised DDs anymore (and yes- there are still some dedicated DDs out there who really love their class abilities and play for fun!).
    Don't get me wrong- I don't ask you to make everything accessible for me (or other middleclassed just-for-fun-players)- there are so many players out there being much better than me - with every right to be so!

    But please, dear ZOS Team,
    take following questions into your consideration:

    1. Is DPS really the only (and best) Key Performance Indicator you can think of as professional game developers?

    2. Do you truly believe that the fact that some of the best international raids/ guilds successfully finished Vet raids after U23 is an applicable measurement for the success of the update/ your work?

    3. What's your strategy to keep players like me busy? Grinding new recipes and new gear and skills with every update? Or do you plan to allow people like me to play some challenging content as well? (normal raids I consider as non-challenging content)


    my two cents

    In terms of healing everything has been said by peacenote - great post!

    The long story of me creating this post: my ESO account was created 4th of January 2014- I never registered in Forums and never opened a ticket ever since- I just realised that because this needed to be done to post these lines....^^ I took about 4 days to get this solved, so sorry for the delay in reply.
    Furthermore I just realised that I'm truly and deeply concerned, because so many of my guildmates and friends are too frustrated and disappointed to play currently.

    Well said and thank you for taking the time to figure out forums and come and post your views. Things have gone so far south that finally the bread and butter players, like myself, are showing up to have our voices heard. ZOS please listen to us. Your two cents are worth $2million dollars.

    < Xbox NA PVE >
  • DasSturmkind
    DasSturmkind
    Soul Shriven
    eso_lytw8 wrote: »
    Well said and thank you for taking the time to figure out forums and come and post your views. Things have gone so far south that finally the bread and butter players, like myself, are showing up to have our voices heard. ZOS please listen to us. Your two cents are worth $2million dollars.

    Thank you for your encouraging words!
    I'm not very confident that our feedback is heard or taken into consideration- but we need to give it a try :)
  • beadabow
    beadabow
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    A lot of angry sounding comments here. I'm not a therapist, but as a player who likes to read and post forum comments in a constructive and engaging manner, I feel like I just stepped into a room full of people who need anger management therapy. Lighten up! Or don't. Stay angry all the time because your "ideal game" isn't the way you want it to be. The problem isn't with the game or the developers, the problem with the game is all of the angry players.

    To those players who will never be happy, I say: "Maybe this isn't the game for you. So leave already! Plenty of us will be happy to see you go."
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    One class trying to be identical at doing the same thing/role as the other class is not the same as "class identity"....


    They also said that class identity is to be rooted in fantasy elements, or something like that. E.g.:
    • DKs -- fire (and poison)
    • Wardens -- nature
    • Templars -- holy fire
    • Necros -- corpses
    • NBs -- killing, blood and/or other vital bodily fluids (no, perverts, not those -- I meant ill-described essences)
    • Sorcerers -- electricity and whatever else is left over


  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    beadabow wrote: »
    A lot of angry sounding comments here. I'm not a therapist, but as a player who likes to read and post forum comments in a constructive and engaging manner, I feel like I just stepped into a room full of people who need anger management therapy. Lighten up! Or don't. Stay angry all the time because your "ideal game" isn't the way you want it to be. The problem isn't with the game or the developers, the problem with the game is all of the angry players.

    To those players who will never be happy, I say: "Maybe this isn't the game for you. So leave already! Plenty of us will be happy to see you go."

    You might want to consider that this is all part of the natural cycle of the forums that very closely tracks with the Stages of Grief.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483874/5-stages-of-patch-note-grief

    As funny as I intend that post to be, there's a real correlary to that: if you are at the acceptance stage, don't expect someone at the anger or denial stage to be right there with you. Everyone grapples with changes differently and in their own time and in their own way.

    So while I appreciate your intent here in calling for acceptance or GTFO, I don't expect it to actually help anyone. The angry players you are talking to will move on to acceptance in their own time, or they'll leave on their own.
    Edited by VaranisArano on September 3, 2019 6:35PM
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    One class trying to be identical at doing the same thing/role as the other class is not the same as "class identity"....


    They also said that class identity is to be rooted in fantasy elements, or something like that. E.g.:
    • DKs -- fire (and poison)
    • Wardens -- nature
    • Templars -- holy fire
    • Necros -- corpses
    • NBs -- killing, blood and/or other vital bodily fluids (no, perverts, not those -- I meant ill-described essences)
    • Sorcerers -- electricity and whatever else is left over


    Yeah, the themes are great. :) I find they work very well for magicka builds!
  • shaielzafine
    shaielzafine
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    beadabow wrote: »
    A lot of angry sounding comments here. I'm not a therapist, but as a player who likes to read and post forum comments in a constructive and engaging manner, I feel like I just stepped into a room full of people who need anger management therapy. Lighten up! Or don't. Stay angry all the time because your "ideal game" isn't the way you want it to be. The problem isn't with the game or the developers, the problem with the game is all of the angry players.

    To those players who will never be happy, I say: "Maybe this isn't the game for you. So leave already! Plenty of us will be happy to see you go."

    I mean, some people have invested thousands of hours and spent money on their characters only to have all their builds including racials changed overnight. And this is for no good reason since performance improvements aren't actually planned to happen until mid 2020 lol.

    People like you who are quick to tell unhappy players to leave don't help any. At least 2 of the PvP guilds I'm in are dead, my core raid groups got so much turnover before the main members all quit and got replaced, and the replacements quit too. One of the trials groups I was in finished vCR HM and then like half the people stopped playing and haven't logged on in months haha. Where I used to see people on discord playing ESO I see people on playing other games together. PvP isn't the only end game where there's performance problems and where people have issues with combat & classes. A bunch of the old guildies I played with daily went to WoW and some others went with me to play Final Fantasy 14's new expansion. I don't see how giving angry feedback on why people on forums want to leave is unwarranted. This is the forums, where devs go for feedback. Angry feedback will help them improve and the people can make choices whether to keep playing / keep subbing if devs respond. Although I suspect like most of my guildies a lot of unhappy end game players and people fed up with constant empty promises about game performance will simply uninstall and actually play other games like you said. At any rate, you've convinced me not to resub. I'll just get a 6 month sub for FF14, instead of checking the forums if it's worth playing ESO more regularly.
    Edited by shaielzafine on September 4, 2019 5:40AM
  • Ozazz
    Ozazz
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    so you guys say this "AoE abilities should not do more damage than a single target ability on a single target. There should be a choice – if you are hitting more than 3 targets, AoE is the right choice. As it was before U23, AoE was always the right choice, in every situation".

    i could go on a list of aoe abilities that have been bis LOL, do me a favor and just reduce them from pvp as a whole!
    Edited by Ozazz on September 4, 2019 9:35PM
  • Ozazz
    Ozazz
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    "As noted above, class identity is next on our list of things to hit. Our overall goal is that each class has enough tools fulfill each of the roles."

    this couldn't be more of a lie, you've done nothing other than persecute classes in the past two years based on their identity!
    LMFAO

    "Adding cast times to Ultimates appears to be a change most people here have reacted negatively to. Why are these cast times being added? What issue is the team attempting to solve with this change?
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful."

    ^ the biggest load of bs
    we all know this only hurts the solo player and your vision is to continue to dumb the game down while removing skill gaps left and right!
    this patch will be the final one for me, and ill sit back laughing as this game rot's not to mention wow classic will ruin eso.
    imagine a game that actually listen's to the community and re-releases a classic vanilla version.
    while eso let's casual's dictate the outcome of pvp
  • GreatGildersleeve
    GreatGildersleeve
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    beadabow wrote: »
    A lot of angry sounding comments here. I'm not a therapist, but as a player who likes to read and post forum comments in a constructive and engaging manner, I feel like I just stepped into a room full of people who need anger management therapy. Lighten up! Or don't. Stay angry all the time because your "ideal game" isn't the way you want it to be. The problem isn't with the game or the developers, the problem with the game is all of the angry players.

    To those players who will never be happy, I say: "Maybe this isn't the game for you. So leave already! Plenty of us will be happy to see you go."

    I’m not sure about everyone else but I’m not angry anymore. I just don’t care and THAT is what should scare the heck out of ZoS. Anger still denotes emotional involvement but when you see valid, constructive comments from the community completely ignored, what’s the point of being invested?
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