Trader swap issue - EU server

Czekoludek

Yeah, addons are bad, game without them runs good (Except it doesn't, right console players?). This response would be okay after first couple of hours of this mess, not after 48h+ of almost complete silence (cannot treat generic "we know about it" as proper response). I lost the faith that we can find competent ppl in ZoS, your lack of skills in almost every aspect (from programing to communication) is astonishing.

sylviermoone

reoskit wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

To those asking that ZOS consults with GMs before setting (perhaps) another timing for the traders' flip : may I ask why ?

There used to be a time when everyone in the guild could see bank movements, therefore bids had to be placed last minute because of spies. This is no longer the case.
Up until very recently, GMs had to be online upon trader flip in order to organize a backup if needed. With multibidding and the riddance of ghost guilds/backup guilds, this is no longer required.

So.. why does it matter when the trader flip takes place, since you can place your bids whenever you want during the whole week ?
Also, do you think "all of you" or the majority of you could actually agree on what the "best" time would be, and what are the criteria ?

These are all genuine questions.

All fair points, so long as multibidding actually works. Right now, how confident are you in that system?

May I add one more question to your list? I think it would be helpful getting other GMs on the same page:

Do you think ZOS would even bother considering GMs' feedback on a new flip time?

Anyone who offered multibidding feedback knows just how influential all of our input was. Not. At. All. Literally nothing we said had any impact; they insisted on ramming this system through, exactly as originally pitched.

I'm not sure how I developed amnesia that fast. Disregard my request to be part of a discussion on a new flip time. Fool me once...

In fairness, it was direct feedback from GMs that got us the flip time we have. Originally, flip happened an hour before Monday maintenance. It was then moved to occur during Monday's maintenance. The most recent change moved it to Sunday evenings when most GMs are online running weekly raffles or other guild activities. I personally spent an entire day during PAX west, discussing the need to change the flip time with the staff.

Just because they failed to listen to feedback before pushing multi-bid live doesn't mean they have always failed to listen to feedback.

I also can't believe I'm sitting here defending them after coming to this thread to see addon devs be thrown under the bus AGAIN because of crappy implementation/testing of features/functions. If addons were the problem, console players would experience ZERO issues. Obviously, that is not the case; the forums are full of players from all platforms having significant and game-breaking issues. FIX YOUR STUFF.

DragonRacer

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for everyone’s patience while we continue investigating the guild trader and multi-bidding issues that recently occurred on the PC EU server. To give everyone an update, the issues impacting the guild traders from this past weekend were ultimately tied to the overall game load and related processing requests. The cause was a high volume of add-on requests, game server requests, and multi-bid process requests all hitting at once.

As a temporary solution, we’ve disabled the guild history API functionality that addons use on the PC NA and EU servers until we have additional safeguards in place. Disabling this functionality is the quickest and least impactful way to effectively adjust the overall load on the game. We’re still working on adding the additional safeguards and once we’ve tested it internally, we’ll determine if it’s something we can hotfix or if we’ll need to add it to an incremental patch. We’re also discussing the possibility of moving when guild trader ownership switches to another time that’s outside of primetime hours, but still during a reasonable time.

As for the excess gold that some guilds received, we’re currently reviewing which guilds and individuals were affected and will be determining an appropriate course of action soon.

We apologize for the trouble and confusion all this has caused, and appreciate your continued patience.

Wading in to the sea of questions and responses to ask what will, hopefully, be some simple questions to answer.

Since I'm bracing for the console update dropping next Tuesday...

In light of what has happened to PC EU and that the response has been to completely shut down all guild history, period, on both PC NA and PC EU, I have console-related disaster preparedness questions:

1. Are you planning to shut off all guild history for consoles? If so, when would this occur? Would like to know so I can warn fellow GMs who charge dues and track these through the guild bank history... and to warn GMs who track raffle money via guild bank donations... and because I am running a special initiative in my donation-based guild that functions based on my ability to see what members are donating to the guild bank. If the information hose is gonna get shut off, please give a date/time so I can ask guildies to mail me all donations instead for tracking purposes.

2. If a change in trader flip time is decided upon, is this impacting only the PC servers or is this being instated across all platforms? I would assume all platforms, so please do warn us console folks about when this might be happening. A lot of the forum users here tend to be PC, so much of console goes ignorant to issues unless they either actively check here (like I do) or unless console folks bring this info to other console users via Discord and in-game (which is what I do).

reoskit

sylviermoone wrote: »

In fairness, it was direct feedback from GMs that got us the flip time we have. Originally, flip happened an hour before Monday maintenance. It was then moved to occur during Monday's maintenance. The most recent change moved it to Sunday evenings when most GMs are online running weekly raffles or other guild activities. I personally spent an entire day during PAX west, discussing the need to change the flip time with the staff.

Just because they failed to listen to feedback before pushing multi-bid live doesn't mean they have always failed to listen to feedback.

I considered bringing up that very change, but then remembered it was implemented approximately 3 years ago, yes?

That is no longer the climate in which we live.

When was the last round table with GMs?

Sanct16

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Trolling with ban comments sure is weird way to show appreciation for players who dedicate much of their time and resources to manage in-game communities.

Whether we received extra gold or not wasn't up to us players.

Cheers.

Anyone who spend the gold that they got from this bug should be permanently banned with no questions asked, no way to appeal this ban or anything. Anyone should know that getting 10 times the gold you spend is not intended.

Juhasow

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, all these replies stating "ban them", what have you been smoking? You do realise a vast majority of GM's didnt touch the gold right? We should be banned for a f-up on zos part? at least bring something constructive to the table

Well then ban just those who cannot give back all additional amount of gold they recived. Simple.

Those who havn't touched the gold and were patiently waiting for the obvious bug issue to be resolved have nothing to be affaraid of and the rest , well they've exploited obvious bug and consequences for that are also obvious. Wheter it will be perma on temporary ban should be based on the amount of gold said persons decided to spend/giveaway right after whole thing happened and the ways they've decided to spend it on.

sylviermoone

reoskit wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

In fairness, it was direct feedback from GMs that got us the flip time we have. Originally, flip happened an hour before Monday maintenance. It was then moved to occur during Monday's maintenance. The most recent change moved it to Sunday evenings when most GMs are online running weekly raffles or other guild activities. I personally spent an entire day during PAX west, discussing the need to change the flip time with the staff.

Just because they failed to listen to feedback before pushing multi-bid live doesn't mean they have always failed to listen to feedback.

I considered bringing up that very change, but then remembered it was implemented approximately 3 years ago, yes?

Yeah, it was 3 (soon to be four) PAX West's ago where I discussed that change with them. I believe it then took a further 6 months for the change to be fully implemented.

reoskit wrote: »

That is no longer the climate in which we live.

Right. The climate now is "blame the addons".

Arrodisia

Fixing the issue should be concentrated on more than anything else right now. Otherwise, this and every other broken thing will just keep repeating itself. Turning the add ons off didn't fix the lag. The server is unfortunately, lacking. It can't handle day to day transactions, and it should be addressed ASAP imho.

Have fun in the game all. Cheers.

Sandman929

Sanct16 wrote: »

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Trolling with ban comments sure is weird way to show appreciation for players who dedicate much of their time and resources to manage in-game communities.

Whether we received extra gold or not wasn't up to us players.

Cheers.

Anyone who spend the gold that they got from this bug should be permanently banned with no questions asked, no way to appeal this ban or anything. Anyone should know that getting 10 times the gold you spend is not intended.

But what if they thought it was some sort of promotional thing, or they were new players who didn't know any better?

Hmm...hard to make that argument work in this case I guess....

They can always fall back on "my exploiting is ZOS's fault!"

VaranisArano

Its pretty simple to figure out who exploited the excessive refunds.

The TOS and Code of Conduct require players to report exploits or game gitches when they find them and to not take advantage of them.

Every GM or Guild officer who had access to the guild gold and guild bids knew when they got an excessive refund. I mean, let's give these people credit for basically being our unpaid accountants. They knew what they right ammount was, they knew when their guild got less than the proper refund, and they knew when their guild got 4x the proper amount. Ignorance doesnt really come into this one, not with the amounts we're talking about.

So let's look at the actions of GMs and officers who know they got excessive refunds.

So did they report that excessive refund and not spend it? Excellent! They followed the TOS, and so ZOS can deal with the extra gold. No exploiting - they didnt exactly as they should and deserve our thanks.

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

Did they not report it and indeed start spending the gold in an attempt to launder it and prevent ZOS from removing their excessive gains?
That's a pretty clear case of exploiting - taking advantage of a glitch for their own gain at the expense of other players. That's breaking the TOS, which ZOS can decide how they want to deal with it.


So thanks to every GM/officer who reported the excessive refunds like you ought! Excellent work!

Everyone who didn't...go reread the TOS and Code of Conduct you agreed to.

kate.georgeb16_ESO

Just a thought, if the server load meant that it took the server too long to process the bids, why don't they simply close bidding a bit earlier, say half an hour before trader swap, and give the server longer to process it? Alternatively leave it longer before traders are available for hire, say 15 minutes instead of 5 minutes?

reoskit

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

I agree with most of your post, but when there is an issue this massive and it's been acknowledged by ZOS, our responsibility should be simply to not exploit.

An aside: there was (and still is) no way to return the gold, so "kept it" doesn't make sense.

I don't see anything wrong with GMs who saw there was an incorrect influx of gold in their bank and they sat on their hands*. I'm sure many expected the issue to be rectified that night.

*Edit: As in they didn't touch the gold and didn't report it.

therift

I'm not sure I understand the role played by add-ons.

If PCNA appeared to run smoothly, and PCEU was a clusterphooey, how did add-ons screw one server and not the other?

I'm just a console pleb, so the nefarious actions of evil add-ons is just one great big mystery.

Oh, and LOL.

Tandor

Juhasow wrote: »

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, all these replies stating "ban them", what have you been smoking? You do realise a vast majority of GM's didnt touch the gold right? We should be banned for a f-up on zos part? at least bring something constructive to the table

Well then ban just those who cannot give back all additional amount of gold they recived. Simple.

Those who havn't touched the gold and were patiently waiting for the obvious bug issue to be resolved have nothing to be affaraid of and the rest , well they've exploited obvious bug and consequences for that are also obvious. Wheter it will be perma on temporary ban should be based on the amount of gold said persons decided to spend/giveaway right after whole thing happened and the ways they've decided to spend it on.

As with all disciplinary things in life, these things tend to get decided more on the account history. Someone for whom this is a first offence will rightly be treated more leniently than someone who is already on a final warning.

Lovelocke

Sanct16 wrote: »

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Trolling with ban comments sure is weird way to show appreciation for players who dedicate much of their time and resources to manage in-game communities.

Whether we received extra gold or not wasn't up to us players.

Cheers.

Anyone who spend the gold that they got from this bug should be permanently banned with no questions asked, no way to appeal this ban or anything. Anyone should know that getting 10 times the gold you spend is not intended.

No need to ban the players, just do what EVE Online does to RMT'ers - debit the gold from their account. If they've spent what they should never have received then they'll go into a debit and all future gold acquired will go to filling that debit.

wavingblue

therift wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand the role played by add-ons.

If PCNA appeared to run smoothly, and PCEU was a clusterphooey, how did add-ons screw one server and not the other?

I'm just a console pleb, so the nefarious actions of evil add-ons is just one great big mystery.

Oh, and LOL.

You better not ask those questions, ZOS overlords don't like to be questioned.

VaranisArano

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

I agree with most of your post, but when there is an issue this massive and it's been acknowledged by ZOS, our responsibility should be simply to not exploit.

An aside: there was (and still is) no way to return the gold, so "kept it" doesn't make sense.

I don't see anything wrong with GMs who saw there was an incorrect influx of gold in their bank and they sat on their hands. I'm sure many expected the issue to be rectified that night.

Anyone who got the excessive gold should have reported it. That's what the TOS and Code of Conduct require. If you don't remember agreeing to that responsibility to report, go reread the TOS and CoC.

Those GMs who said nothing are guilty of inaction - certainly less problematic than the ones who started spending it - but certainly not following the rules either.

So what should they do now if they want to rectify that inaction?

If their intentions were good, its a simple thing to report the excessive refund now and continue to leave the refund untouched for ZOS to deal with as they wish.

Better late than never.

Lynnara1

Tatanko wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Your game runs crap with or without add-ons.

Blaming add-ons for ZOS incompetency is just flat out shameful.

I'm not defending ZOS, but you clearly don't understand that: local machine performance and server performance are not the same thing. Servers are what is in question here, not the local client. Addons are pinging the server for information, what they do to your own computer is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Rightfully so...so let's disable all the addons, maybe that would improve performance all around.

reoskit

Lynnara1 wrote: »

Tatanko wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Your game runs crap with or without add-ons.

Blaming add-ons for ZOS incompetency is just flat out shameful.

I'm not defending ZOS, but you clearly don't understand that: local machine performance and server performance are not the same thing. Servers are what is in question here, not the local client. Addons are pinging the server for information, what they do to your own computer is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Rightfully so...so let's disable all the addons, maybe that would improve performance all around.

Kinda like on console?

Arrodisia

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

I agree with most of your post, but when there is an issue this massive and it's been acknowledged by ZOS, our responsibility should be simply to not exploit.

An aside: there was (and still is) no way to return the gold, so "kept it" doesn't make sense.

I don't see anything wrong with GMs who saw there was an incorrect influx of gold in their bank and they sat on their hands*. I'm sure many expected the issue to be rectified that night.

*Edit: As in they didn't touch the gold and didn't report it.

I agree with most of what you said. I mean. Let's be serious. The issue was already reported. I see no reason players should've spammed them to death to say the same exact thing. Not to mention, many guilds suffered losses due to no refund and no vendor kiosk. So, they had nothing to report except, "Beeatch where's my money?" The devs should be concentrating on fixing the server, and patching the game to stop this and other major issues from happening again. The rest is just a side issue that can be fixed later imho. Enjoy the game, and best regards.

VaranisArano

therift wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand the role played by add-ons.

If PCNA appeared to run smoothly, and PCEU was a clusterphooey, how did add-ons screw one server and not the other?

I'm just a console pleb, so the nefarious actions of evil add-ons is just one great big mystery.

Oh, and LOL.

Its the difference between PC/EU primetime and PC/NA primetime server loads.

PC/EU has its high population/high demand time very concentrated whereas PC/NA is somewhat more spread out. So at peak load, PC/EU comes under much higher demand relative to the amount of load the servers can handle than PC/NA does. ZOS basically explained that with their post on PC/EU issues months ago and the fundamentals haven't changed.

So if we take the 3 factors Gina mentioned: add-ons, multibid and game server requests, we see based on their previous issues that PC/EU sees a higher concentration of game server requests than PC/NA due to the higher population at their peak time. Addons and multibid are effectively the same.

So if that's the problem, why remove add-ons API?

Because that's the easiest fix. ZOS isnt going to remove multibidding because that's their new baby, and ZOS doesnt want to have less players to generate less game server requests, so the simplest thing to remove is the guild history API.

DragonRacer

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

To those asking that ZOS consults with GMs before setting (perhaps) another timing for the traders' flip : may I ask why ?

There used to be a time when everyone in the guild could see bank movements, therefore bids had to be placed last minute because of spies. This is no longer the case.
Up until very recently, GMs had to be online upon trader flip in order to organize a backup if needed. With multibidding and the riddance of ghost guilds/backup guilds, this is no longer required.

So.. why does it matter when the trader flip takes place, since you can place your bids whenever you want during the whole week ?
Also, do you think "all of you" or the majority of you could actually agree on what the "best" time would be, and what are the criteria ?

These are all genuine questions.

You raise valid points.

Here are my reasons for why trader flip at a reasonably accessible time would still be desired:

1. To try and survive/hire in case of a disaster scenario like what PC EU just endured

2. To try and hire in the event that all bids failed and if you can find an open trader. The likelihood of open traders seems like it would be less due to multi-bidding, but there is still that chance. And not all guilds can afford to place a back-up bid or multiple back-up bids. One could say "well, that is the guild's fault" but that's a bit callous. I actually know of a dues-charging guild that plans to stick with just the one primary bid due to how their weekly income looks versus the types of traders they are accustomed to bidding on. And there are plenty of small and medium-sized guilds who can only fundraise what they can fundraise weekly and place their one bid... it would be good that, if their bid loses, they would still have a chance to try and find an open trader to hire. Since multi-bidding does them absolutely no good whatsoever and changes nothing for their GMing lives in that instance.

It doesn't personally affect me either way. I plan to place multiple bids and whatever day/time is decided to be the new time, then I will place my bids prior to then. It would suck if it flips in the middle of the night or when I'm at work because I will, of course, be champing at the bit to know if we won or lost - the instant gratification of standing there watching it happen and knowing you either won or you need to scramble is reassuring in that at least you know right then and there. But changing wouldn't be the end of the world to me. Heck, as it is, I am only able to be present for current trader flip for half of the year anyway because once Daylight Savings Time hits, flip happens right at our family dinner time and so I have to fully rely on my officers to do what needs to be done if we lose.

As far as if all GMs would be able to agree upon a day/time... unsure. Possibly, since folks seem to do just fine with the status quo day/time. But most likely not because there will never be accounting for all possible time zones and work/personal schedules which will always inevitably change anyway as GMs come and go. *shrugs*

ValueDrift

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

ValueDrift wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

what did they bid 10 x 75+million? No spot in the game is worth that.

No need to bid this much, presumably you get the bid back as many times as you made bids, you're using 4 as multiplier, but I've heard of bigger multipliers than that. Perhaps the multiplier is however many bids you had refunded, so up to a maximum of 10.

75m x 10 =750m x4 =3 billion. So I figured that 4x's in already when I said it

Yes, and you shouldn't figure in 4x, you should figure in 6 - 10X. Hundreds of millions per large guild is the word going around.

Arrodisia

ValueDrift wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

ValueDrift wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

what did they bid 10 x 75+million? No spot in the game is worth that.

No need to bid this much, presumably you get the bid back as many times as you made bids, you're using 4 as multiplier, but I've heard of bigger multipliers than that. Perhaps the multiplier is however many bids you had refunded, so up to a maximum of 10.

75m x 10 =750m x4 =3 billion. So I figured that 4x's in already when I said it

Yes, and you shouldn't figure in 4x, you should figure in 6 - 10X. Hundreds of millions per large guild is the word going around.

NO we shouldn't the reports have been 3-4x the amount. So, there's no reason to figure 6x - 10x. You're only spreading misinformation.

reoskit

VaranisArano wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

I agree with most of your post, but when there is an issue this massive and it's been acknowledged by ZOS, our responsibility should be simply to not exploit.

An aside: there was (and still is) no way to return the gold, so "kept it" doesn't make sense.

I don't see anything wrong with GMs who saw there was an incorrect influx of gold in their bank and they sat on their hands. I'm sure many expected the issue to be rectified that night.

Anyone who got the excessive gold should have reported it. That's what the TOS and Code of Conduct require. If you don't remember agreeing to that responsibility to report, go reread the TOS and CoC.

Those GMs who said nothing are guilty of inaction - certainly less problematic than the ones who started spending it - but certainly not following the rules either.

[...snip...]

K, I went back and read it. The section in question is this:

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;


The bolding is mine. I assume we're discussing this problem as an "inconsistency." It became an exploit when people took/used the money.

Setting aside the fact that this game is chock full of inconsistencies, many of which go unreported by maaaany players...

If you found out via another source (ZOS's acknowledgement, other players, etc.) that bid refunding went wonky, then you didn't actually discover the issue; you were informed.

There was a hell of a lot to deal with on Sunday, post flip. GMs were busy being guild masters, tending to their guilds, attempting to explain things they couldn't explain to their guildies, conferring with each other, trying to understand how they lost a bid when they didn't actually lose a bid, etc. It was chaos.

Holding them accountable because they didn't stop amid all that insanity to submit a bug report? Come on. That feels like a witch hunt. If anyone is determined to say that they violated the ToS, then I highly recommend you navel gaze and think back - do you submit a bug report each time you see someone running on top of a horse? Please.

The issue was acknowledged; that server should've come down and been rolled back immediately. Put the blame where it belongs.

All of that said, if you're the kind of person who saw the gold, took it, and spent it then you exploited and deserve to be permabanned.

For the all the other GMs? Lay off - they have enough problems they're still trying to work through.

Mathius_Mordred

The people you are suggesting they ban are also the people who spend thousands of £/Euros each year on this game, who build communities, websites, work really hard to encourage and help new players. Sure, go ahead ban them, watch the entire community crumble, then who will you sell your mats to?

Who will ZOS turn to when subs dramatically reduce? We got about 10 million back and it's still in our guild bank, I'm hoping that we get to keep it of course but if we can't so be it, but if bans are handed out to people I know and care about then I'm gone from this game, I was here in closed beta but if they start punishing people because of a ***-up of their own making then this will be the last straw as far as I'm concerned, the 300 people in my guild will have to find another guild, well those who actually continue playing will, the rest, well there's a lot of games out there desperate for cash and players.

Sanguinor2

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

The people you are suggesting they ban are also the people who spend thousands of £/Euros each year on this game, who build communities, websites, work really hard to encourage and help new players. Sure, go ahead ban them, watch the entire community crumble, then who will you sell your mats to?

Who will ZOS turn to when subs dramatically reduce? We got about 10 million back and it's still in our guild bank, I'm hoping that we get to keep it of course but if we can't so be it, but if bans are handed out to people I know and care about then I'm gone from this game, I was here in closed beta but if they start punishing people because of a ***-up of their own making then this will be the last straw as far as I'm concerned, the 300 people in my guild will have to find another guild, well those who actually continue playing will, the rest, well there's a lot of games out there desperate for cash and players.

So basically because they do nice Things they dont have to follow the rules? Because we are only asking for the People guilty of exploiting a bug to be banned. I help out others in Trial clears and Progression runs, so Im allowed to exploit now because I help People? That really what you want to say?

Pyvos

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

The people you are suggesting they ban are also the people who spend thousands of £/Euros each year on this game, who build communities, websites, work really hard to encourage and help new players.

You aren't suddenly entitled to abuse bugs and exploits just because you're a paying customer. The Code of Conduct clearly states:

Users will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax. Users will not intentionally use or share any bug found within any ZeniMax Game, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage. You will not directly or indirectly communicate the existence of any such bug to any other user of the ZeniMax Service (in game or on a ZeniMax service).

If you're withdrawing gold that you've been sent that is clearly the result of a bug in the game, buying materials or sending it to alts, etc. then you're clearly exploiting / abusing a game system, regardless of whether or not it's ZOS's fault or not. I'm not for a permanent ban except in the most extreme of cases (I don't think this is one of those cases), but I do think temporary bans should be imposed to send a clear message to those abusing the systems to not do so in the future, along with ZoS implementing measures to correct any damage which has already been done to the in-game economy.

If someone wants to abuse the game and throw away all the hours they've played as a result though, be my guest. But the buck stops when your actions negatively impact everyone else.

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Sure, go ahead ban them, watch the entire community crumble, then who will you sell your mats to?

I imagine those with gold that managed to get it through legitimate means?

VaranisArano

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did they not report it but kept the gold?
Not good. They did not follow the TOS and Code of Conduct, and ought to report the excessive refund ASAP.

I agree with most of your post, but when there is an issue this massive and it's been acknowledged by ZOS, our responsibility should be simply to not exploit.

An aside: there was (and still is) no way to return the gold, so "kept it" doesn't make sense.

I don't see anything wrong with GMs who saw there was an incorrect influx of gold in their bank and they sat on their hands. I'm sure many expected the issue to be rectified that night.

Anyone who got the excessive gold should have reported it. That's what the TOS and Code of Conduct require. If you don't remember agreeing to that responsibility to report, go reread the TOS and CoC.

Those GMs who said nothing are guilty of inaction - certainly less problematic than the ones who started spending it - but certainly not following the rules either.

[...snip...]

K, I went back and read it. The section in question is this:

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;


The bolding is mine. I assume we're discussing this problem as an "inconsistency." It became an exploit when people took/used the money.

Setting aside the fact that this game is chock full of inconsistencies, many of which go unreported by maaaany players...

If you found out via another source (ZOS's acknowledgement, other players, etc.) that bid refunding went wonky, then you didn't actually discover the issue; you were informed.

There was a hell of a lot to deal with on Sunday, post flip. GMs were busy being guild masters, tending to their guilds, attempting to explain things they couldn't explain to their guildies, conferring with each other, trying to understand how they lost a bid when they didn't actually lose a bid, etc. It was chaos.

Holding them accountable because they didn't stop amid all that insanity to submit a bug report? Come on. That feels like a witch hunt. If anyone is determined to say that they violated the ToS, then I highly recommend you navel gaze and think back - do you submit a bug report each time you see someone running on top of a horse? Please.

The issue was acknowledged; that server should've come down and been rolled back immediately. Put the blame where it belongs.

All of that said, if you're the kind of person who saw the gold, took it, and spent it then you exploited and deserve to be permabanned.

For the all the other GMs? Lay off - they have enough problems they're still trying to work through.

To be clear, I certainly think that GMs who did report the excessive refund did exactly what they were supposed to and deserve our thanks. GMs who spent the gold most certainly took advantage of a bug, in clear violation of the TOS and Code of Conduct.


The problem of GMs who got excessive refunds and didn't still haven't reported them is simply one where its impossible to tell their intentions if they don't report the excessive refund. (Its been over 48 hours, so I'm not buying any "heat of the moment" excuses that they can't go report it now if they didn't already. )

Look, whether or not those GMs had enough to do or not...

They still got extra gold through the excessive refunds. They still need to report "Hey ZOS, we got an excessive refund."

Otherwise, there's functionally no difference between a GM who goes "Oh well, I won't report it because ZOS will take care of it." And a GM who goes "Oh well, I won't report it and hope ZOS doesn't notice and we get to keep it."

There's no way to tell the difference, because the behavior is the same. No, your good intentions are not magically obvious, because you didn't do the thing that proves your good intentions...following the TOS and Code of Conduct by reporting the excessive refund.

Not reporting excessive refunds, even if you didn't spend them is basically counting on ZOS' mercy. I'm not going to recommend that anyone take that gamble.

If you are a GM who wants to show ZOS you are doing the right thing, I'd strongly advise you to report the excessive refund if you didn't already. Its not going to cost you anything to do the right thing and follow the TOS now.

To everyone who already did, excellent work!

Mathius_Mordred

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

The people you are suggesting they ban are also the people who spend thousands of £/Euros each year on this game, who build communities, websites, work really hard to encourage and help new players. Sure, go ahead ban them, watch the entire community crumble, then who will you sell your mats to?

Who will ZOS turn to when subs dramatically reduce? We got about 10 million back and it's still in our guild bank, I'm hoping that we get to keep it of course but if we can't so be it, but if bans are handed out to people I know and care about then I'm gone from this game, I was here in closed beta but if they start punishing people because of a ***-up of their own making then this will be the last straw as far as I'm concerned, the 300 people in my guild will have to find another guild, well those who actually continue playing will, the rest, well there's a lot of games out there desperate for cash and players.

So basically because they do nice Things they dont have to follow the rules? Because we are only asking for the People guilty of exploiting a bug to be banned. I help out others in Trial clears and Progression runs, so Im allowed to exploit now because I help People? That really what you want to say?

I wrote it in plain English, further expansion on the point is not required, interpret it how you like. All I am saying is people should be careful what they wish for because this whole ridiculous episode could turn out to be very very costly for ZOS and the game in general if not handled right. Fortunately, I doubt the devs in this game will be stupid enough to cower to the witchhunt mentality sweeping this thread, if they do, well then, that's when the *** will really hit the fan.