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Sincere Request: Please Define/Redefine/Confirm Vision for Healer Role for PvE

peacenote
peacenote
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(This will be a long post. It aligns with my style. Ty in advance for your consideration and participation in the discussion.)

PTS 5.1.4 patch notes were released. While short, they are possibly the most disappointing patch notes I have ever read because, by many accounts, this means that the proposed healing changes will go live and, as an additional, ridiculously misguided attempt to pretend to "listen to feedback," includes a new adjustment to Mutagen that is extremely disheartening for the direction of the game, imo.

CURRENT AND FUTURE STATE SUMMARY

Current, Pre-Patch Situation as I See It:

- PvP Healing is extremely OP and requires significant change
- Server performance, especially EU, is very bad and may require changes to the core game mechanics in order to remediate
- PvE healing is teetering on the edge of extinction re: questionable necessity for all but the hardest content; complaints about fake tanks and healers in PvE abound

Potential, Post-Patch Situation as I See it:

- PvP Healing issues addressed due to extreme limitation of Springs and Orbs, on the heels of the Earthgore Nerf, and in addition to the Pet Sorc nerf
- Server performance related/improved? TBD "at best;" never acknowledged as a driving factor "more likely"
- Solidifies PvE healing necessary only for Trial content; even when needed it will be less dynamic, more boring, and cause many current longtime healers to move on to other roles or (even worse) other games

********************************************

PvP participation has never required a role designation. The introduction of battlegrounds re-inforced this.
PvE organized content was designed around the "holy trinity" of tank/healer/dps. The Group Finder roles (and the later removal of multiple role designations) re-inforced this.

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Hands-down the best summary I've seen regarding these latest attempts at balance changes and specifically the healing changes:
code65536 wrote: »
The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.

It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.

So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.

If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.

Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.

It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.

And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.

That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.

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We've had many active PvE healers voice their concerns against the changes, only to be blatantly ignored. (Sad state of affairs).
We've had some PvP players voice their support for these changes. (To be expected and I respect this).
We've had some PvE healers voice their support for some of the changes, focusing on one aspect or a few, but not all, aspects of PvE healing today. (Depending on the reasoning, I also very much respect this... it is good to keep an open mind).
We've gone down the road of debating whether PvE healers will be able to put out enough healing for current content. We've spent our time focusing on red herrings like whether healers know how to "adapt" or "git gud" or whether they understand their role at all. (Inevitable but unfair and disappointing).
We've finally seen a real, PTS raid with proof that the concerns of active PvE healers were valid. (Missed it? READ THIS THREAD AND WATCH THIS VIDEO!!)

********************************************

The result? Almost everyone acknowledges that most content will be able to handled as the community adapts. Whether we bring a stam healer to raids, eliminate them altogether in most content, or evolve to a meta of "hybrid" roles, most people admit, in one way or another, that we can adapt if need be. (Sarcasm: Keep exchanging the "adapt" and "git gud" threads, guys. That will most certainly result in a lack of attention to the underlying, massive change that's occurring, which doubtless is your intent by your absolute reluctance to address and discuss the larger issue.)

The criticisms and concerns that continue to be ignored are threefold:

1) PvE healing will now be EXTREMELY BORING. (Unfortunate for a game which, by definition, should be FUN.)
2) PvE healing role will not be necessary except for, at best, difficult raid content. (Unfortunate for a game which, by its current standards, supports a dedicated healing role).
3) Some of us gravitate towards a healing role because we enjoy it and/or have injuries don't allow us to compete in the light attack, click-heavy DPS meta. Either way, a percentage of the community would like to see healing in PvE remain a distinct and necessary role. Some of us have remained in the ESO community since 2014, and been strong supporters of the game, primarily due to the uniqueness of the healing role which is now at risk due to these changes. We are hoping that healing can be adjusted, which we acknowledge is necessary especially for our PvP friends, without completely gutting what we love about the game.

********************************************

Some of us have wondered whether the the intent of ZOS is to eliminate the healing role. I did some searching and found this article, which personally makes me think ZOS is trying to get ahead of the MMO meta, which might very well be to eliminate a dedicated support role. However this is being done without transparency to the community that's being asked to vet the changes on PTS. Many longtime healers and supporters of the game are making a concerted effort to provide sincere feedback about how our roles are being marginalized, while simultaneously ZOS may be using healer testing to help eliminate the role.

I understand creative license, and the fact that none of us who spend our time helping in the community are being paid, whether it be a class representative or someone simply defending their hobby, like me... but the lack of acknowledgement that healing as a distinct role isn't a priority (if that is the intent) is irresponsible and disingenuous to people who have given their time to support the game based on current understandings that may no longer be true. Maybe the company/gaming community relationship doesn't require a WHY, but common decency kinda does.

********************************************

After all of the testing, the latest and last patch notes do not address or tweak ANY of our comments about the relevance and enjoyment of the healing role in general. Rather, they introduce a mutagen change which seems only aimed at addressing the complaint that "stam healing" might outperform "magicka healing."

OK, so you are READING our comments. Great. But giving magicka healers a brainless spam heal that hits more people than it did before, while ignoring our concerns about Springs and Orbs, is insulting and missing the point for multiple reasons:
  1. Hitting mutagen multiple times does not require positioning or skill and COMPLETELY ignores all of the feedback about how skilled healers used the multi-cast features of Springs and Orbs to proactively place heals in multiple areas throughout raids and more challenging dungeons and how we'll be unable to apply those skills with the proposed changes. Both Springs and Orbs allowed us to CHOOSE who was covered by our heals, which also required us to be aware of where people were and how to position our heals.
  2. This does nothing to address the feedback that the current changes promote stacking strategies and discourage alternate creative strategies for handling content differently amongst different raid progression groups
  3. It reinforces and worsens a complaint that is coming from healers both for and against the changes on the table before 5.1.4, which is that spamming healing abilities doesn't lead to intelligent healing and results in over-healing.
  4. Worst of all, imo, as a longtime Templar healer, it re-introduces a style of play that was nerfed to the ground due to issues in PvP. So you aren't learning from your "mistakes" AND are band-aiding band-aids with band-aids to the point that you've gone full circle and are introducing a change that's destined to be reverted if you consider that history tends to repeat itself. HUH? I will explain. The Templar heal, Breath of Life, has been nerfed repeatedly due to unfairness in PvP. It originally healed multiple people without requiring line of sight. It was deemed unfair because healers could come to the rescue without having to even "see" the person receiving the heal and gave Templars an unfair advantage and caused unfair "saves" in PvP without skill or direct awareness of battle. As this post is too long already, I won't look up the specifics, but the nerfing went something like "heal less number of people, then heal via a cone instead of ignoring LOS, then reduce the additional second heal that was left to be even less effective." Healers have stated that they won't be able to have the flexibility they had previously with multiple springs and orbs available to them, so instead of addressing this, you've now reintroduced/buffed a heal that chooses people at random, without requiring positioning, to be applicable to more people and, depending on who is analyzing the situation, will be more effective than either of its previous versions.

Does this potentially help stave off the criticisms that "stam healers" will be more effective or that healers don't have enough tools in their arsenal to heal through difficult content? Yes.

Does this address some of the more nuanced complaints about how healers spam abilities, will have less flexibility, and have an unimportant, boring role that for most PvE content won't be relevant? Nope. Makes it worse. Reinforces that healers should be healbots maintaining a boring rotation vs. intelligently triggering and placing heals based on group strategy and anticipated damage.

I have played since 2014, have "adapted" through massive changes, have three different healers, and am, for the first time, considering whether retiring my healers or taking a break from the game makes the most sense, since clearly the devs do not have an understanding of why PvE healing has been fun, the types of skills and activities we like to participate in, or what drives many of us to stick with the role. This simplistic balancing of abilities has gutted an enjoyable role that required adaptation and skill to play, which is adding insult to injury after the forced "Orbs" meta which falsely perpetuated the idea that all healers do is spam one or two abilities due to the visibility of Orbs and the fact that for many classes Springs was the only viable stackable heal.

********************************************

TLDR: The proposed healing changes for the next patch seem aimed at minimizing the dedicated PvE healer role more than ever before in ESO; comments and concerns about this direction have been completely ignored. Some community members are intrigued and/or in support of the eliminate of the dedicated healer role. While we are "owed" nothing, the community can give better feedback if we are given acknowledgement of the vision of the PvE healer role, and what was the intent of these proposed changes. Most of us wish the game well and are genuinely trying to help, but the silence regarding the vision for the PvE healer role is frustrating. Can ZOS define whether or not they see PvE healing as a dedicated role in the future, and why or why not? ZOS can do whatever they please with their game, so this is not a demand, but a request so that those of us who are trying to help can better understand the direction, and then better give our support or cut our losses and leave, as opposed to the current scenario where we are left to debate and guess as to the intent of these changes, even in the face of video evidence on PTS that our predictions for the role, should these changes go live, are right on the money.
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
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    Thanks op for the excellent and rational writeup. It's unfortunate that for some players and game devs, balance means having a common floor or just a blanket ability mechanics revamp.

    I have to say though, that until the devs aren't clear about their long term vision and be transparent about it, it's hard for players to accept steep changes such as this. The current changes to healing in the pts can mean alot of things and while it 'might' mean the loss of the healing role, we haven't had the chance to got through the whole process. Cp changes are in the pipeline, older gear sets are still being audited, dungeons can still be tweaked. Couple with the balancing acts you've talked about above, with no clear identity not just between the classes, but roles as well will just make the current changes feel unwarranted.

    The problem I think, still lies in the timeline that the devs are given by their higher ups. You can tell that they want to do performance updates but no updates that focuses on performance tweaks will bring in new players, which in the end, is all that matters.

    I do have to respectfully disagree about mutagen being an almost turnaround on abilities being changed and chop. Mutagen and the initial bol is so different, one is a direct group burst heal while the other is a group hot. The numbers can still be tweaked but at the end of the day, both are fundamentally different even though they might seem similar.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.
    Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?

    ~ Edgar Allan Poe
  • Lisutaris
    Lisutaris
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671
    Edited by Lisutaris on August 6, 2019 7:40AM
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Really feels like they are trying to move towards the original design documents which is really tje anti-mmo.

    The game evolved into a bastardization of ideas. You still have people clamoring for "play as you want" and these changes move the ball in that direction.

    Dedicated support only classes and roles never were the intention i don't think. I think they always had these visions but didn't have the team for it.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • SassiestAssassin
    SassiestAssassin
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    Well said OP. Even though I wish it weren’t true. I’m so burnt out, might just check in 3 months from now to see if they backtrack at all.

    I can’t believe they’re nerfing without making sure the content is completable. Some real good PvE balancing there.
    *slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    healers were colonized, their culture was taken and claimed by dps as their own, healers no longer exist.


    (but for real I'm quitting, which sucks cuz next patch is a dungeon patch)
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    but it won't be. if things aren't fun and you can't stop playing, you either need to re-evaluate the things you have available to you to do, or get checked for gaming addiction (a recognized disorder)
  • Ei8htba11
    Ei8htba11
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    ..snip..
    peacenote wrote: »
    - Server performance, especially EU, is very bad and may require changes to the core game mechanics in order to remediate

    I've read several things concerning this, their own games' mechanics and it's effect on server performance. When they (ZOS) said they would address this, I was under the impression it would involve some sort of server side upgrade. Dumbing down the game for the sake of performance seems to me, at least, a bad way to go. The game has recommended client system specs for acceptable performance, seems to me they should provide minimum server specs for an acceptable performance.

    That said, I haven't run into anything so terrible it makes me want to rage, but I have encountered mobs not telegraphing their attacks, attacks firing without animations, in the opposite direction to telegraphed, bar swap or skills not firing etc. to name a few. Annoying momentarily, and not consistent. (PC EU)

    [Edit] Punctuation...

    Edited by Ei8htba11 on August 6, 2019 2:19PM
  • Agenericname
    Agenericname
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    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

  • SassiestAssassin
    SassiestAssassin
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    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
    Edited by SassiestAssassin on August 6, 2019 3:52PM
    *slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.
  • DocFrost72
    DocFrost72
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    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.

    And why not?
    "Should I do it? No. Will I do it? Of ***ing course I will."
    "Offense is taken, not given."
    Koht of Kevira: "Imperial" Sorcerer
    Hailie the Returned: "Bosmer" Necromancer
    Glacius Cromeum: Imperial Templar
    Nivek the Shadow: "Imperial" Nightblade
    Syldraaendril Nightwood: Bosmer Warden
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Dragonknight
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Templar
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Nightblade
    Titus Morric Silverthorn: Imperial Dragonknight
    Kartendor: Altmer Sorcerer
    Sephy-Lemme-Smash: Argonian Warden
    Aeris Silverthorn: Breton Templar
    Araenandriah Lyrovehkem: Bosmer Nightblade
    Danron Lyrovehkem: Imperial Sorcerer
    Kevin Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Templar
    Vehk Silverthorn: "Imperial" Necromancer Tank in training
  • SassiestAssassin
    SassiestAssassin
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    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.

    And why not?
    ‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.
    Edited by SassiestAssassin on August 6, 2019 5:32PM
    *slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.
  • Marginis
    Marginis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would say +1 but that deserves a +10. Well said.
    @Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.
  • DocFrost72
    DocFrost72
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.

    And why not?
    ‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.

    Maybe my question didn't register, or maybe I've misinterpreted your statement. Let me try again.

    Are you saying it should be impossible to solo world bosses?
    "Should I do it? No. Will I do it? Of ***ing course I will."
    "Offense is taken, not given."
    Koht of Kevira: "Imperial" Sorcerer
    Hailie the Returned: "Bosmer" Necromancer
    Glacius Cromeum: Imperial Templar
    Nivek the Shadow: "Imperial" Nightblade
    Syldraaendril Nightwood: Bosmer Warden
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Dragonknight
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Templar
    Hailie Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Nightblade
    Titus Morric Silverthorn: Imperial Dragonknight
    Kartendor: Altmer Sorcerer
    Sephy-Lemme-Smash: Argonian Warden
    Aeris Silverthorn: Breton Templar
    Araenandriah Lyrovehkem: Bosmer Nightblade
    Danron Lyrovehkem: Imperial Sorcerer
    Kevin Silverthorn: "Bosmer" Templar
    Vehk Silverthorn: "Imperial" Necromancer Tank in training
  • SassiestAssassin
    SassiestAssassin
    ✭✭✭
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.

    And why not?
    ‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.

    Maybe my question didn't register, or maybe I've misinterpreted your statement. Let me try again.

    Are you saying it should be impossible to solo world bosses?

    It registers alright.
    It shouldn’t be impossible with big DPS, but having it be even a challenge would be nice.

    The fact that I have low DPS and sub-par sets yet still clear world bosses easily? Makes it feel under-tuned, if that makes sense.

    I guess I just wish world encounters would scale to higher difficulty. I miss being challenged by overland content.

    Edit: it’s okay to disagree, but this isn’t really the thread to discuss this.
    Edited by SassiestAssassin on August 6, 2019 6:20PM
    *slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    Yeah, its simplistic, because why there are tiers of PVE players is a different topic entirely from "Hey, not all nerfs are 100% PVP related" which was more where I was going with the original comment.

    But hey, I like talking about PVE too!

    Yeah, its not true that ALL PVEers find the end-game content too easy. That's obvious, since progression groups exist! And its progression groups who suffer the most when ZOS nerfs PVE because those groups do not have the experience to compensate for the nerfs.

    Example: Its like nerfing a first-timer in vMA vs an experienced vMA runner. The newbie is going to have a much harder time because he lacks experience. The experienced player will adjust quickly. (This, incidently, is why the top-tier PVEers rebound so quickly after nerfs while progression groups suffer more from nerfs.)



    So in my original point about why ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons, I'm looking at both Morrowind and Murkmire, the last two big nerf patches. Neither one of those patches was wholly a PVE OR a PVP patch, to be perfectly clear. Rather, ZOS had both PVE and PVP reasons for the nerfs, contrary to the presentation of the person I was responding to. Nevertheless, since you and I are talking about PVE, I'd like to focus on the PVE reasons for those nerfs: Power Creep.

    Pre-Morrowind, we had end game PVEers ripping through ZOS' hardest content with high DPS and calling it easy. ZOS massively nerfed sustain.
    Pre-Murkmire, we had dungeon groups calling Tank + 3DDs an ideal strategy. ZOS specifically called out the treatment of healers and thus nerfed magicka and stamina survivability.
    We've still got lots of changes going on because ZOS is scrambling to make healers useful (in ZOS' own special way.)

    Why does ZOS not want power creep?
    The last thing ZOS wants is to make new end-game PVE content that is so challenging for the very top-tier that few other PVEers have a chance. That's bad for business (we see this with ZOS nerfing some DLC dungeons to improve completion rates). But having top-tier end-game PVEers get bored with easy content and leave the game is also bad for business (ZOS has to sell those 4 DLC dungeons to someone, after all, and its bad marketing for players to leave because your end-game content is too easy). So it doesn't matter that not ALL players find it easy. It matters that the players ZOS is balancing for find it too easy (thus get bored and leave) or too hard (give up and leave). ZOS has to keep the ceiling high enough to be challenging...but not ever too high.

    So what does ZOS do about power creep? What they always do - hit some aspect of gameplay with a nerfhammer - we've seen that strategy employed patch after patch. This means that A) old content stays somewhat relevant, B.) new content stays challenging, C) making players work harder to complete the same old content because they got nerfed is a lot cheaper than designing enough new content to keep them occupied.

    But...I just said that nerfs don't hit the top tier PVEers (the ones who find content "easy") as hard, right? Yep. As stated above, the nerfhammer hits the progression tier a lot harder than it does the top tier of PVEers. It doesn't quite accomplish ZOS' goals, thus leading to yet more PVE nerfs. Gotta love it. :neutral:
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    This.
    Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
    Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.

    And why not?
    ‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.

    Maybe my question didn't register, or maybe I've misinterpreted your statement. Let me try again.

    Are you saying it should be impossible to solo world bosses?

    It registers alright.
    It shouldn’t be impossible with big DPS, but having it be even a challenge would be nice.

    The fact that I have low DPS and sub-par sets yet still clear world bosses easily? Makes it feel under-tuned, if that makes sense.

    I guess I just wish world encounters would scale to higher difficulty. I miss being challenged by overland content.

    Edit: it’s okay to disagree, but this isn’t really the thread to discuss this.

    If you have good defense and healing at the expense of damage, bosses are easy to solo but take a long time. If you want a do-or-die challenge, bring more a glass cannon build. Or tangle with tougher bosses ...
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    Is the pvp population shrinking?

    There definitely aren’t a lot of people who play BGs, but the Cyrodiil population is larger then the vet trial population I believe. It’ll be full pop in cyrodiil almost 7 days a week in the no-CP and CP 30 day campaign on PC-NA. That means 1200 in cyrodiil during prime time.

    Last I heard which might be total BS, <4% of players have done a vet trial (maybe they meant HM) and almost 10% of players have been in cyrodiil... something like that.

    Anyways, onto the OP’s point... I love the orbs change personally, healing springs not so much.

    I don’t think the changes are targeting healers or stam or anyone, they’re standardizing abilities. Springs was really strong for pve groups above 4 so was tuned down to other healing abilities, just like echoing vigor was the best aoe heal per cast but was brought down to other abilities.

    My personal opinion on how things will play out is people will adapt, then they’ll nerf CPs. DPS healing only works because full CP dps pve players have just as much mitigation as a fresh level 50 CP 0 tank. Take that away and dps self healing won’t be enough... maybe. I’m just guessing. I much would have preferred if they left springs as is but played with the values.
    Edited by Iskiab on August 6, 2019 7:39PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Agenericname
    Agenericname
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    Yeah, its simplistic, because why there are tiers of PVE players is a different topic entirely from "Hey, not all nerfs are 100% PVP related" which was more where I was going with the original comment.

    But hey, I like talking about PVE too!

    Yeah, its not true that ALL PVEers find the end-game content too easy. That's obvious, since progression groups exist! And its progression groups who suffer the most when ZOS nerfs PVE because those groups do not have the experience to compensate for the nerfs.

    Example: Its like nerfing a first-timer in vMA vs an experienced vMA runner. The newbie is going to have a much harder time because he lacks experience. The experienced player will adjust quickly. (This, incidently, is why the top-tier PVEers rebound so quickly after nerfs while progression groups suffer more from nerfs.)



    So in my original point about why ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons, I'm looking at both Morrowind and Murkmire, the last two big nerf patches. Neither one of those patches was wholly a PVE OR a PVP patch, to be perfectly clear. Rather, ZOS had both PVE and PVP reasons for the nerfs, contrary to the presentation of the person I was responding to. Nevertheless, since you and I are talking about PVE, I'd like to focus on the PVE reasons for those nerfs: Power Creep.

    Pre-Morrowind, we had end game PVEers ripping through ZOS' hardest content with high DPS and calling it easy. ZOS massively nerfed sustain.
    Pre-Murkmire, we had dungeon groups calling Tank + 3DDs an ideal strategy. ZOS specifically called out the treatment of healers and thus nerfed magicka and stamina survivability.
    We've still got lots of changes going on because ZOS is scrambling to make healers useful (in ZOS' own special way.)

    Why does ZOS not want power creep?
    The last thing ZOS wants is to make new end-game PVE content that is so challenging for the very top-tier that few other PVEers have a chance. That's bad for business (we see this with ZOS nerfing some DLC dungeons to improve completion rates). But having top-tier end-game PVEers get bored with easy content and leave the game is also bad for business (ZOS has to sell those 4 DLC dungeons to someone, after all, and its bad marketing for players to leave because your end-game content is too easy). So it doesn't matter that not ALL players find it easy. It matters that the players ZOS is balancing for find it too easy (thus get bored and leave) or too hard (give up and leave). ZOS has to keep the ceiling high enough to be challenging...but not ever too high.

    So what does ZOS do about power creep? What they always do - hit some aspect of gameplay with a nerfhammer - we've seen that strategy employed patch after patch. This means that A) old content stays somewhat relevant, B.) new content stays challenging, C) making players work harder to complete the same old content because they got nerfed is a lot cheaper than designing enough new content to keep them occupied.

    But...I just said that nerfs don't hit the top tier PVEers (the ones who find content "easy") as hard, right? Yep. As stated above, the nerfhammer hits the progression tier a lot harder than it does the top tier of PVEers. It doesn't quite accomplish ZOS' goals, thus leading to yet more PVE nerfs. Gotta love it. :neutral:

    I found it mostly humorous because you used Molag Kena as an example and the reason why we can blast through there without a healer is at least partially due to ZOS nerfing it.

    PvEers definitely call for nerfs as well, there are a few active at the moment I believe. PvPers are louder though. I'm also quite sure that the nerfs aren't as one-sided as some on the forums make them out to be, but in truth I'm also not sure that ZOS knows either. Altmer with stamina recovery? There was tequila involved in that.

  • Dolphinsgal
    I have to agree with OP, I'd like to see they why behind all the healing nerfs and the direction they are moving with it. I'm not going to say I quit the game due to the changes, however that may come in time. I don't like the direction the game is heading but I love eso and the friends I've made so I'll give the changes a chance.
    Zos acknowledging our pve healing concerns, would be a great start adapting changes to take our concerns seriously would be even better.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
    Lisutaris wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Nothing to say that hasn't been said in 1st post.

    Yup. Very good.

    I am going to repeat myself alot but they went "full queen ayrenn mode" this time. It's like they are playing a different game than us. (PoV - PvE Healer)
    tenor.gif?itemid=12106671

    Your quote isn't completely off track.

    I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.

    I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.

    I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:

    PVP performance sucks.
    In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
    The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.


    Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutelreal.VE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).


    Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.

    Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).

    It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.

    Yeah, its simplistic, because why there are tiers of PVE players is a different topic entirely from "Hey, not all nerfs are 100% PVP related" which was more where I was going with the original comment.

    But hey, I like talking about PVE too!

    Yeah, its not true that ALL PVEers find the end-game content too easy. That's obvious, since progression groups exist! And its progression groups who suffer the most when ZOS nerfs PVE because those groups do not have the experience to compensate for the nerfs.

    Example: Its like nerfing a first-timer in vMA vs an experienced vMA runner. The newbie is going to have a much harder time because he lacks experience. The experienced player will adjust quickly. (This, incidently, is why the top-tier PVEers rebound so quickly after nerfs while progression groups suffer more from nerfs.)



    So in my original point about why ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons, I'm looking at both Morrowind and Murkmire, the last two big nerf patches. Neither one of those patches was wholly a PVE OR a PVP patch, to be perfectly clear. Rather, ZOS had both PVE and PVP reasons for the nerfs, contrary to the presentation of the person I was responding to. Nevertheless, since you and I are talking about PVE, I'd like to focus on the PVE reasons for those nerfs: Power Creep.

    Pre-Morrowind, we had end game PVEers ripping through ZOS' hardest content with high DPS and calling it easy. ZOS massively nerfed sustain.
    Pre-Murkmire, we had dungeon groups calling Tank + 3DDs an ideal strategy. ZOS specifically called out the treatment of healers and thus nerfed magicka and stamina survivability.
    We've still got lots of changes going on because ZOS is scrambling to make healers useful (in ZOS' own special way.)

    Why does ZOS not want power creep?
    The last thing ZOS wants is to make new end-game PVE content that is so challenging for the very top-tier that few other PVEers have a chance. That's bad for business (we see this with ZOS nerfing some DLC dungeons to improve completion rates). But having top-tier end-game PVEers get bored with easy content and leave the game is also bad for business (ZOS has to sell those 4 DLC dungeons to someone, after all, and its bad marketing for players to leave because your end-game content is too easy). So it doesn't matter that not ALL players find it easy. It matters that the players ZOS is balancing for find it too easy (thus get bored and leave) or too hard (give up and leave). ZOS has to keep the ceiling high enough to be challenging...but not ever too high.

    So what does ZOS do about power creep? What they always do - hit some aspect of gameplay with a nerfhammer - we've seen that strategy employed patch after patch. This means that A) old content stays somewhat relevant, B.) new content stays challenging, C) making players work harder to complete the same old content because they got nerfed is a lot cheaper than designing enough new content to keep them occupied.

    But...I just said that nerfs don't hit the top tier PVEers (the ones who find content "easy") as hard, right? Yep. As stated above, the nerfhammer hits the progression tier a lot harder than it does the top tier of PVEers. It doesn't quite accomplish ZOS' goals, thus leading to yet more PVE nerfs. Gotta love it. :neutral:

    I found it mostly humorous because you used Molag Kena as an example and the reason why we can blast through there without a healer is at least partially due to ZOS nerfing it.

    PvEers definitely call for nerfs as well, there are a few active at the moment I believe. PvPers are louder though. I'm also quite sure that the nerfs aren't as one-sided as some on the forums make them out to be, but in truth I'm also not sure that ZOS knows either. Altmer with stamina recovery? There was tequila involved in that.

    That's fair! When I usually make that joke, its Molag Kena, Domihaus, and all the trial bosses signing up for forums accounts so they can tell the Devs that Olorime is overpowered, Relequen is overused, and self-heals make it too darned hard to kill players. I'm sure they'd have a few words for ZOS about those nerfs too! :lol:
  • aetherial_heavenn
    aetherial_heavenn
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    If I could give you awesome plus insightful plus agree I would. Settled for an awesome.

    Well written, rational and researched posts are rare. This is an excellent example and summarises my concerns exactly.

    Thank you.

    I have 3 healers...templar, warden and sorc. I mostly heal vPvE dungeons, vet Craglorn and some DLC trials, 4 and 8 person groups in PVP (open world CP) and occasionally BG's .

    I like playing support and heals and LA weaving for the DPS required for this content is not possible with my ping and for physical reasons.

    I worry I am being made redundant except for vDLC trials which I cannot participate in anymore due to Oceanic lag which now sits at 360ms consistently in PvE and 400 ms plus in Cyrodil
    (When I started it was 220ms in both).

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439549/oceanic-lag-now-300-400-ms-even-with-a-vpn-was-250-300
    now nearly 40 pages with NO RESPONSE FROM ZOS
    Quoted for truth
    "In my experience, the elite ones have not been very toxic, and the toxic ones not very elite." WrathOfInnos
  • Mr_Walker
    Mr_Walker
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    I think it's great that you think they have a vision. Such optimism. Such hope.















    Such naivete! :D
  • alainjbrennanb16_ESO
    alainjbrennanb16_ESO
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    Alot of guilds i know are talking about no healers in dungeons and only 1 in trials with this update
  • peacenote
    peacenote
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    I feel sorry for all the time you wasted writing up such a well informed and articulate post that zos is going to ignore.

    It may be ignored, but sometimes feedback does make it back and have an impact. I have made an effort to keep the discussion about the healing changes logical, intelligent, and in the forefront so that as different members of the community visit the forum they are aware of the potential changes and can weigh in.

    Some initial proposals have been reverted or adapted, like the recent shield changes, but the problem with massive changes to the healing role are twofold: 1) there aren't as many people who primarily focus on PvE healing as there are folks whose focus is on DPS, and there even less people out there who heal with a non meta class that are knowledgable and also frequent the forums and 2) it is more difficult to directly measure the impact of healing changes, *especially* when the potential issue has to do with complex issues such as mobility, flexibility in a variety of situations, and enjoyment of the role. We can measure HPS but that only gets us so far.

    Therefore, I'm trying to do my part to gather feedback I have seen and heard, as well as share my perspective as a longtime healer, since it is my primary role. If it falls on deaf ears, well.... at least I made an effort. :)
  • Vildebill
    Vildebill
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    I guess I get what you are coming from, from the PvE perspective, but the healbot meta that pests PvP got to go. And soon. So I welcome this patch with open arms. It's pathetic to see the numerous players only running around in heavy, spamming springs, mutagen and other healing skills. Good riddance of that. I just played a BG deathmatch, the winning team didn't even get 400 points. That's how it is right now.

    Now I'm only coming from the PvP side, which is just one part of it, but it's pure cancer in there right now because of the healtank meta.
    EU PC
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