The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.
It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.
So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.
If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.
Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.
It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.
And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.
That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.
MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
- Server performance, especially EU, is very bad and may require changes to the core game mechanics in order to remediate
VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
SassiestAssassin wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
This.
Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
This.
Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
And why not?
SassiestAssassin wrote: »‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
This.
Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
And why not?
DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
This.
Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
And why not?
Maybe my question didn't register, or maybe I've misinterpreted your statement. Let me try again.
Are you saying it should be impossible to solo world bosses?
Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
SassiestAssassin wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »‘Cuz my main is a Khajiit magden, all healing setup, and I’m REALLY bad at DPS.DocFrost72 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
This.
Also: Overland content is too easy (Edit: for endgame players.) I shouldn’t be able to solo world bosses, especially with my healer.
Not that many are calling for real nerfs for PvE group content.
And why not?
Maybe my question didn't register, or maybe I've misinterpreted your statement. Let me try again.
Are you saying it should be impossible to solo world bosses?
It registers alright.
It shouldn’t be impossible with big DPS, but having it be even a challenge would be nice.
The fact that I have low DPS and sub-par sets yet still clear world bosses easily? Makes it feel under-tuned, if that makes sense.
I guess I just wish world encounters would scale to higher difficulty. I miss being challenged by overland content.
Edit: it’s okay to disagree, but this isn’t really the thread to discuss this.
MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutely no PVE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
Yeah, its simplistic, because why there are tiers of PVE players is a different topic entirely from "Hey, not all nerfs are 100% PVP related" which was more where I was going with the original comment.
But hey, I like talking about PVE too!
Yeah, its not true that ALL PVEers find the end-game content too easy. That's obvious, since progression groups exist! And its progression groups who suffer the most when ZOS nerfs PVE because those groups do not have the experience to compensate for the nerfs.
Example: Its like nerfing a first-timer in vMA vs an experienced vMA runner. The newbie is going to have a much harder time because he lacks experience. The experienced player will adjust quickly. (This, incidently, is why the top-tier PVEers rebound so quickly after nerfs while progression groups suffer more from nerfs.)
So in my original point about why ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons, I'm looking at both Morrowind and Murkmire, the last two big nerf patches. Neither one of those patches was wholly a PVE OR a PVP patch, to be perfectly clear. Rather, ZOS had both PVE and PVP reasons for the nerfs, contrary to the presentation of the person I was responding to. Nevertheless, since you and I are talking about PVE, I'd like to focus on the PVE reasons for those nerfs: Power Creep.
Pre-Morrowind, we had end game PVEers ripping through ZOS' hardest content with high DPS and calling it easy. ZOS massively nerfed sustain.
Pre-Murkmire, we had dungeon groups calling Tank + 3DDs an ideal strategy. ZOS specifically called out the treatment of healers and thus nerfed magicka and stamina survivability.
We've still got lots of changes going on because ZOS is scrambling to make healers useful (in ZOS' own special way.)
Why does ZOS not want power creep?
The last thing ZOS wants is to make new end-game PVE content that is so challenging for the very top-tier that few other PVEers have a chance. That's bad for business (we see this with ZOS nerfing some DLC dungeons to improve completion rates). But having top-tier end-game PVEers get bored with easy content and leave the game is also bad for business (ZOS has to sell those 4 DLC dungeons to someone, after all, and its bad marketing for players to leave because your end-game content is too easy). So it doesn't matter that not ALL players find it easy. It matters that the players ZOS is balancing for find it too easy (thus get bored and leave) or too hard (give up and leave). ZOS has to keep the ceiling high enough to be challenging...but not ever too high.
So what does ZOS do about power creep? What they always do - hit some aspect of gameplay with a nerfhammer - we've seen that strategy employed patch after patch. This means that A) old content stays somewhat relevant, B.) new content stays challenging, C) making players work harder to complete the same old content because they got nerfed is a lot cheaper than designing enough new content to keep them occupied.
But...I just said that nerfs don't hit the top tier PVEers (the ones who find content "easy") as hard, right? Yep. As stated above, the nerfhammer hits the progression tier a lot harder than it does the top tier of PVEers. It doesn't quite accomplish ZOS' goals, thus leading to yet more PVE nerfs. Gotta love it.
Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
Your quote isn't completely off track.
I love the game but it is not without flaws. In my opinion, this game has put too much emphasis on the needs of PvP combat balance. The problem is that most of the devs in this game come from a PvP background... so naturally, that is the aspect of the game they care more about than in reality, they should. PvE population is as large as in the game's history and growing, while PvP is as small as it has ever been in the game's history and growing smaller by the day. So in a way, you are correct. The game you play is not the same as the game they play, since they tend to play more PvP than PvE. I remember Miss Bizz once had a perfect quote, when she said that "her ESO game is much different than the ESO game that Fengrush plays". And your quote is accurate. The game that most people play... which is strickly PvE with only a small tabble of PvP IS MUCH DIFFERENT than the game that devs play, in which is dominated by PvP play time.
I thought Morrowind was a clear sign that the community did not want to be a "PvP focused" game anymore. The devs seemed to get the message and it has been a long time since we had a patch like this.... but this patch makes me wonder if the lessons began to fade from memory. Oh well, the sky isn't falling. The community will adapt. PvE will continue to grow and PvP will continue to skrink. Six weeks from now, everything will be the same.
I think its simplistic to talk about the PVP community shrinking without acknowledging the primary reason why:
PVP performance sucks.
In fact, PVP performance has sucked for years.
The longer we go without fixes, the more people get fed up and quit. Its not because the community doesnt like PVP - its mostly because those of us who do are sick and tired of terrible performance that ZOS hasnt fixed for years.
Its also very simplistic to call Morrowind just a PVP centered patch...as if ZOS had absolutelreal.VE reason to gut PVE sustain. Its not like trial runners were blazing through ESO's hardest content and calling it easy-peasy, lemon squeezy or anything...(they were).
Its important to keep in mind that PVP is not less worthy than PVE - if its smaller than it has been, that is a direct result of years of neglect by the Devs.
Its also important to keep in mind that the Devs nerf PVE because of power creep that the Devs see, while PVE players often don't see the same power creep because its not like Molag Kena has a forum account to complain. Rather, when PVEers say content is too easy, PVEers ought to batten down the hatches for a storm of incoming nerfs (precisely what happened before Morrowind and to a lesser degree, Murkmire).
It's also simplistic to say that "PVE players" say content is "too easy." Some players do, more do not. There are more threads asking to remove the DLC dungeons from the RDF. If however Molag Kena ever finds herself with a forum account to start a nerf thread, I would remind her that the Devs nerfed her to this state.
Yeah, its simplistic, because why there are tiers of PVE players is a different topic entirely from "Hey, not all nerfs are 100% PVP related" which was more where I was going with the original comment.
But hey, I like talking about PVE too!
Yeah, its not true that ALL PVEers find the end-game content too easy. That's obvious, since progression groups exist! And its progression groups who suffer the most when ZOS nerfs PVE because those groups do not have the experience to compensate for the nerfs.
Example: Its like nerfing a first-timer in vMA vs an experienced vMA runner. The newbie is going to have a much harder time because he lacks experience. The experienced player will adjust quickly. (This, incidently, is why the top-tier PVEers rebound so quickly after nerfs while progression groups suffer more from nerfs.)
So in my original point about why ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons, I'm looking at both Morrowind and Murkmire, the last two big nerf patches. Neither one of those patches was wholly a PVE OR a PVP patch, to be perfectly clear. Rather, ZOS had both PVE and PVP reasons for the nerfs, contrary to the presentation of the person I was responding to. Nevertheless, since you and I are talking about PVE, I'd like to focus on the PVE reasons for those nerfs: Power Creep.
Pre-Morrowind, we had end game PVEers ripping through ZOS' hardest content with high DPS and calling it easy. ZOS massively nerfed sustain.
Pre-Murkmire, we had dungeon groups calling Tank + 3DDs an ideal strategy. ZOS specifically called out the treatment of healers and thus nerfed magicka and stamina survivability.
We've still got lots of changes going on because ZOS is scrambling to make healers useful (in ZOS' own special way.)
Why does ZOS not want power creep?
The last thing ZOS wants is to make new end-game PVE content that is so challenging for the very top-tier that few other PVEers have a chance. That's bad for business (we see this with ZOS nerfing some DLC dungeons to improve completion rates). But having top-tier end-game PVEers get bored with easy content and leave the game is also bad for business (ZOS has to sell those 4 DLC dungeons to someone, after all, and its bad marketing for players to leave because your end-game content is too easy). So it doesn't matter that not ALL players find it easy. It matters that the players ZOS is balancing for find it too easy (thus get bored and leave) or too hard (give up and leave). ZOS has to keep the ceiling high enough to be challenging...but not ever too high.
So what does ZOS do about power creep? What they always do - hit some aspect of gameplay with a nerfhammer - we've seen that strategy employed patch after patch. This means that A) old content stays somewhat relevant, B.) new content stays challenging, C) making players work harder to complete the same old content because they got nerfed is a lot cheaper than designing enough new content to keep them occupied.
But...I just said that nerfs don't hit the top tier PVEers (the ones who find content "easy") as hard, right? Yep. As stated above, the nerfhammer hits the progression tier a lot harder than it does the top tier of PVEers. It doesn't quite accomplish ZOS' goals, thus leading to yet more PVE nerfs. Gotta love it.
I found it mostly humorous because you used Molag Kena as an example and the reason why we can blast through there without a healer is at least partially due to ZOS nerfing it.
PvEers definitely call for nerfs as well, there are a few active at the moment I believe. PvPers are louder though. I'm also quite sure that the nerfs aren't as one-sided as some on the forums make them out to be, but in truth I'm also not sure that ZOS knows either. Altmer with stamina recovery? There was tequila involved in that.
quadraxis666 wrote: »I feel sorry for all the time you wasted writing up such a well informed and articulate post that zos is going to ignore.