Tank Resistance

FrancisCrawford

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

theHOF123

@FrancisCrawford Yeah I know. Lol i feel like finding reliable builds on ESO is somewhat tough and I didn't originally have access to the forums here so I was using youtube and googling and alcast would pop up often.

paulsimonps

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Has a thread on Damage Mitigation you should check out.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427251/optimizing-mitigation-calculator/p1

Has anything changed in the past year, or is the information in that thread still accurate?

Actually I didn't notice at first when pinged that he linked to the calculator thread that I just never had the time to finish nor update, not gonna attempt to make another. What you want to look at is this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1

It has recently been updated.

FrancisCrawford

theHOF123 wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford Yeah I know. Lol i feel like finding reliable builds on ESO is somewhat tough and I didn't originally have access to the forums here so I was using youtube and googling and alcast would pop up often.

I'm not negative on Alcast at all. He oversells a little as to how much thought has been put into his builds, but that's a very, very normal and relatively harmless level of hype. And while he doesn't give credit to the originators of ideas, he also doesn't claim credit himself, so in that part I don't even have a hint of criticism.

paulsimonps

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

FrancisCrawford

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

Nestor

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Has a thread on Damage Mitigation you should check out.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427251/optimizing-mitigation-calculator/p1

Has anything changed in the past year, or is the information in that thread still accurate?

It is still current. ZOS usually leaves the Health constellation alone

Nestor

Oh, if your looking to be a Tank, and not just Tanky, then you want to go see Mr Woeler

https://woeler.eu/

paulsimonps

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

FrancisCrawford

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

I'm fine with the idea that magicka or stamina regen or max stat can be more important than mitigation. Indeed, most of my builds overinvest in sustain. I'm pushing back solely against the specific claim that health can be more important than mitigation. At standard health/mitigation tradeoffs (generally on gear, as that's where such tradeoffs actually happen), I see mitigation as being much more "cost effective" to "buy".

ZeroXFF

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

Most of those skills are heals, and they also scale with resistances in terms of their strength vs. incoming damage.

Say you have 30k HP at resist cap, and your skill heals for 33% of your HP. You get hit by something for 10k, you use your skill and it brings you up to full.

Compare that to 36k with 40% resist. The same hit would now be 12k, but 33% of 36k is also 12k, so it leads to the same result.

So really, even in those cases you're not losing anything by going the resistance route.

The difference is, if you are receiving heals that do not scale with your max HP, you are better off with less HP and more resistances. Because if your healer's heal healed you for 10k in the first scenario, it would still heal you for 10k in the 2nd, and you'd end up 2k short.

As a general rule of thumb, it's useful to view an additional 1% resist as 1-2% max. HP + 0-2% healing received, depending on how far you are from the cap, and how much of the healing you get scales with your HP.

ZeroXFF

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Rungar

the point i was making was that missing a block is critical and the others things not near as critical

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

Thank you for that. The point i was trying to make is that you will likely die if you miss the block no matter what else you have.

paulsimonps

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

bakthi

While people who seem like they're good at this are talking...

I started as a healer, and still do this most of the time, but I've been tanking lately. ~440CP, Imperial DK, Ebon/Torug, purple except weapons/jewelry. Wearing 1 piece each from Pirate Skele + Chudan because I don't really have anything better for tank yet. Food is longfin or crown, depending. I've allocated 30 points into HP, 20 stam, the rest magic.

Most things, I've been able to tank fine. I haven't done trials; hardest thing has probably been vet WGT (non-HM). Usually I feel like if I block/stun/avoid, I don't take much damage. Life is reasonable.

Tried doing Moon Hunter Keep (vet) with some guildies the other day and it BEAT THE TAR OUT OF ME. We had to call the run after several attempts at Archivist Ernarde, because I just couldn't take the damage from the big WW add; they'd do that one attack (that they can seemingly spam at will), I'd block, and it would take all my HP anyway. I felt bad, because I basically let the group down.

Not in front of my PC, but IIRC my HP is around 35k, resists are mostly good (not at cap, but not super far away). It was just a serious spike...right in my eye. Anyone have advice for these things? Am I just out of my depth tanking that place until I farm certain gear or get more CP? Anything else I should stay away from (or do first)?

ATreeGnome

More mitigation and effective health is never a bad thing but always ask yourself "Do I need it for this situation?"

If you are fighting a boss and getting killed by their hardest hits, then yes, you definitely need more mitigation and/or health.

If you are surviving but only by a thin margin, then you probably need more mitigation and/or health.

However, if you are surviving and still have a comfortable portion of health left, then is more health or mitigation providing you with much value? Sure, it's less that you need to heal up, but it's not exactly hard to get healed up as a tank in most situations. Even if you have mediocre healers, you have a powerful self heal from Polar Wind and you will be able to use it a LOT more if you have extra magicka regen.

How tanky you actually need to be is very situational in ESO and being more tanky usually comes at the cost of utility you can provide the group. I suggest having multiple gear sets ready and switching them out as needed.

Nestor

bakthi wrote: »

While people who seem like they're good at this are talking...

I started as a healer, and still do this most of the time, but I've been tanking lately. ~440CP, Imperial DK, Ebon/Torug, purple except weapons/jewelry. Wearing 1 piece each from Pirate Skele + Chudan because I don't really have anything better for tank yet. Food is longfin or crown, depending. I've allocated 30 points into HP, 20 stam, the rest magic.

Most things, I've been able to tank fine. I haven't done trials; hardest thing has probably been vet WGT (non-HM). Usually I feel like if I block/stun/avoid, I don't take much damage. Life is reasonable.

Tried doing Moon Hunter Keep (vet) with some guildies the other day and it BEAT THE TAR OUT OF ME. We had to call the run after several attempts at Archivist Ernarde, because I just couldn't take the damage from the big WW add; they'd do that one attack (that they can seemingly spam at will), I'd block, and it would take all my HP anyway. I felt bad, because I basically let the group down.

Not in front of my PC, but IIRC my HP is around 35k, resists are mostly good (not at cap, but not super far away). It was just a serious spike...right in my eye. Anyone have advice for these things? Am I just out of my depth tanking that place until I farm certain gear or get more CP? Anything else I should stay away from (or do first)?

Go to the Mitigation post linked above and make sure your using your CPs efficiently.

My Imp DK Tank is at 48K Health, 20K Stamina and 20K Magic, and at the caps in resistance. I probably have too much base resistance, but I can swap my monster set. I have Ebon, Allesia Bulwark, and i think Chdan, whatever set give 5k Resist boost. I might swap that back to Bloodspawn for Ultimate Regen.

Anyway, I have yet to have an attack from a boss, that while Shielded, I can't Block and stay alive.

zvavi

@bakthi don't take that place as an example, it is *** to the tank, most boring block shield and heal yourself to survive ever. While i do remember running it, when i am on tank it is usually precast shield before his scream, and recast it every time i feel like it went down+ heal when go below 50%, roll dodge his heavy and aoe (roll into a heavy attack to gain back resources) but it is more of a high risk high return plays.

InvictusApollo

theHOF123 wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm running a warden tank. Since this is my first level capped character I decided to turn to Alcast to see what builds were suggested. I'm currently running a Torug's Pact set and the Ebon Armor set. For my helm/shoulder I'm using Bloodspawn.

Right now with full enchants and all purple gear I'm capped at around 30K health without food and buffs and 15K magicka 20K stamina.

My primary concern is my spell and physical resistance is too low with these sets? I'm sitting at 18.5K spell res. and 15.5K physical res. I do use ice fortress for an additional 5.5K buff basically on these at all times. But still that puts me at about 23K spell resistance and 21K physical resistance.

Is this too low? I know the cap is 33K and I'm a bit concerned. With food I'm at about 38K health and once I fully upgrade everything and switch a few traits around I should be over 40K health.

I was debating on switching the Bloodspawn set for Mighty Chudan for the additional resistance. That set would give me about 8.5K additional resistance for each putting me at about 31 and 29K with ice fortress up.

Thanks.

Alcasts tank builds are probably BiS but only if you are running an optimized trial group. They are best at increasing dps of other team members, not at survival.

ZeroXFF

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

Plenty of people do not go 7p heavy. I actually had to make them read their heavy armor passives (especially constitution) before they recognized that 5/1/1 on a tank is not a very good idea. Those people will have it quite a bit harder when it comes to reaching resist cap.

Also, it's better to have resistances from passives or on gear rather than CP. CP can improve mitigation beyond what resistances would allow. So using CPs on resistances feels like a waste. I'm still using them to get that last bit of physical resist on my Nord DK that is missing when wearing sets that don't give any (Stonekeeper+Ebon+Yolnahkriin), but if there was a good set with a single physical resist bonus, I'd take it in a heartbeat and get 1-2% more mitigation by moving those points to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad, or get 6-8% more healing via quick recovery.

zvavi

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

Plenty of people do not go 7p heavy. I actually had to make them read their heavy armor passives (especially constitution) before they recognized that 5/1/1 on a tank is not a very good idea. Those people will have it quite a bit harder when it comes to reaching resist cap.

Also, it's better to have resistances from passives or on gear rather than CP. CP can improve mitigation beyond what resistances would allow. So using CPs on resistances feels like a waste. I'm still using them to get that last bit of physical resist on my Nord DK that is missing when wearing sets that don't give any (Stonekeeper+Ebon+Yolnahkriin), but if there was a good set with a single physical resist bonus, I'd take it in a heartbeat and get 1-2% more mitigation by moving those points to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad, or get 6-8% more healing via quick recovery.

Most of my tanks do run 5/1/1, only my nb has either 6/1 or 7/0/0 (depends on sets wearing)

paulsimonps

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

Plenty of people do not go 7p heavy. I actually had to make them read their heavy armor passives (especially constitution) before they recognized that 5/1/1 on a tank is not a very good idea. Those people will have it quite a bit harder when it comes to reaching resist cap.

Also, it's better to have resistances from passives or on gear rather than CP. CP can improve mitigation beyond what resistances would allow. So using CPs on resistances feels like a waste. I'm still using them to get that last bit of physical resist on my Nord DK that is missing when wearing sets that don't give any (Stonekeeper+Ebon+Yolnahkriin), but if there was a good set with a single physical resist bonus, I'd take it in a heartbeat and get 1-2% more mitigation by moving those points to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad, or get 6-8% more healing via quick recovery.

There does come a point where resistance CP will give more in point value than putting points in the other sources of mitigation. And as well the case for damage taken vs healing needed could be made in having points into resistance vs quick recovery in terms of CP.

ZeroXFF

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

Plenty of people do not go 7p heavy. I actually had to make them read their heavy armor passives (especially constitution) before they recognized that 5/1/1 on a tank is not a very good idea. Those people will have it quite a bit harder when it comes to reaching resist cap.

Also, it's better to have resistances from passives or on gear rather than CP. CP can improve mitigation beyond what resistances would allow. So using CPs on resistances feels like a waste. I'm still using them to get that last bit of physical resist on my Nord DK that is missing when wearing sets that don't give any (Stonekeeper+Ebon+Yolnahkriin), but if there was a good set with a single physical resist bonus, I'd take it in a heartbeat and get 1-2% more mitigation by moving those points to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad, or get 6-8% more healing via quick recovery.

There does come a point where resistance CP will give more in point value than putting points in the other sources of mitigation. And as well the case for damage taken vs healing needed could be made in having points into resistance vs quick recovery in terms of CP.

But when you're at the cap from gear, that point never comes, and you can make yourself tankier via CP than you could have been otherwise. CPs provide a unique form of mitigation that is not accessible via gear, so if tankiness is the goal, gear should take care of resistances, and CPs should go to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad/quick recovery.

zvavi wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

what your missing is that cp 35% comes off a hit then your armor take whatever percent of that.

100k hit -35% = 65k hit at 50%(33k) max armor= 32.5k hit- 50% block = 16.25k hit
100k hit -35k%=65k hit - 40% (26.4k) armor = 37k - 50% block = 18.5k hit.

so its not a big difference if you have max armor 33k or 25k. All that matters is if you block it or not. If you dont block your likely dead. Cp make armor less effective because it comes off first.

It's 39k after resistances with 40% mitigation from them, not 37k, and results in a 19.5k hit. That means the relative difference between the two numbers is:

100 / 16.25 * 19.5 - 100 = 20%

That's a huge difference.

or you could look at the amount actually resisted.

65,000-16,250 = 48,750

65,000-19,500 = 45,500

48,750/45,500=1.07, only 7% more resisted.

7% is not a difference you will see reflected on your HP bar, it's 20%. That's more than you get from major aegis.

To survive the same (number of) hit(s) you could have 33.1k resist and 40k HP or 26.5k resist and 48k HP. Ask your healer, which tank he prefers to heal after he does Frostvault hm with both.

Since I've healed for years but just started tanking, I have similar biases.

Also, getting 6.6K more resists seems a lot easier than getting 8K more health, which seems like a compelling argument to invest in resists all the way to max.

combine ALL your mitigation sources with and without blocking and then see if the difference between a bit of resistance is worth it or not. In PvE its stupidly easy to get really high total mitigation, and many don't put much weight into Hard Capping their resistance for that reason. Sure adding 3300 resistance will always give you 5% more mitigation vs not having 3300 resistance, but as a whole you want to see if its worth having that vs health then you need to account for ALL possible mitigation in your build. CP, Protection, Maim, Extra blocking passives and so on.

As long as you're not going over the hard cap, how could 5% more mitigation not be a LOT better than, say, 3% more health? Other than in casting a couple of niche skills, max health has no use other than in not running out of health and hence not dying.

cause that 5% might be very very low. Give you an example.

100,000 base damage taken, 45% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.55*0.5= 27,500


100,000 base damage taken, 50% from resistance, 50% base blocking

100,000*0.50*0.5=25,000

So that 5% was worth 25,000 damage

Now lets do a really defensive build

100,000 base damage taken, 15% minor maim, 11% Hardy/Elemental Defender, 19% Thick Skin/Ironclad, 50% base blocking, 45% resistance, 20% Sword and Board Passive, 10% Ironskin(DK), 10% Defensive Stance, 5% Minor Aegis 8% Minor Protection

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.55*0.5*0.6=8,836

Same thing but 50% from resistance:

100,000*0.85*0.89*0.81*0.92*0.95*0.5*0.5*0.6=8,033

8,836-8,033=803

So instead of that extra 5% mitigation from resistance lowering your damage taken by 25,000 it only lowered it by 803. Still same amount of extra resistance gained though, so you can see why when you get high up there with all the things most tanks have that you might not want that resistance vs health or magicka regen or stamina cost or whatever. I mean in that set up only Minor Protection and Defensive stance are things some tanks don't use, and sure their CP might vary but that is my personal recommendation as long as your resistance is ok, which for most it already is.

So again, check your whole mitigation set up and not just resistance by its own.

803/8033 = 10%. So the first tank would still need 10% more healing, no matter what your other mitigation factors are.

EDIT:
Yes, you have to make tradeoffs for resource management, but that's besides the point in the HP vs. resist debate.

Thing is though you don't need to do a lot to get to hard cap. I just played around a bit on PTS. I made a Imperial DK with 7 Gold Heavy in Sword and Shield, using all its passives and Hardened Armor for Major Ward and Resolve. While keeping 52p into Thick Skin/Ironclad and 49p into Hardy/Elemental Defender I was able to get a resistance value of 30330 Spell and 30236 physical. This without any armor set bonuses or traits. Just one piece of either Lord Warden, Chudan or Pirate Skeleton would put me above the cap, and had I been a Nord I would have been at cap with armor, passives and CP alone. Using your CP right and upgrading your gear is the single best way to avoid having to invest into resistance. Never done it myself and never had to.

Oh and obviously if you use Lord Warden for the team buff then you can use your CP for some extra healing or damage shield strength, which ever you need. My point is, in battle HP vs Resistance, HP wins every day cause Resistance is just too damn easy to get as a tank.

Plenty of people do not go 7p heavy. I actually had to make them read their heavy armor passives (especially constitution) before they recognized that 5/1/1 on a tank is not a very good idea. Those people will have it quite a bit harder when it comes to reaching resist cap.

Also, it's better to have resistances from passives or on gear rather than CP. CP can improve mitigation beyond what resistances would allow. So using CPs on resistances feels like a waste. I'm still using them to get that last bit of physical resist on my Nord DK that is missing when wearing sets that don't give any (Stonekeeper+Ebon+Yolnahkriin), but if there was a good set with a single physical resist bonus, I'd take it in a heartbeat and get 1-2% more mitigation by moving those points to hardy/elemental defender/thick skinned/ironclad, or get 6-8% more healing via quick recovery.

Most of my tanks do run 5/1/1, only my nb has either 6/1 or 7/0/0 (depends on sets wearing)

Read your heavy armor passives.

zvavi

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Read your heavy armor passives.

I am aware of them. I chose the 4% of mag and stam. Nb just has more time of major buff depending on how many heavy pieces he wears.

Marginis

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hi.

I'm not sure I understand why health is seen as more important than resistances. 2975 Physical+Spell resistance should cut damage taken by ~4 1/2%, no?* To a first approximation, that seems a little better than 1206 health. (I'm using standard set bonuses for the comparison.)

*Edit: Wait. Wouldn't the benefit be more like twice that level if you're already near resistance cap??

Further:

• The resistance approach is more efficient in terms of healing received.
• The two approaches should be a wash in terms of max-health-based skills.

What am I missing?

As someone who mains tanks, let me chime in again... if just to explain what works best for me. Might work for you too, who knows.

When making a tank, I find it best not to worry too much about health versus resistance. It's the same thing with damage reduction versus resistance. Resistance is easy enough to build to the cap that you shouldn't want to sacrifice anything for physical and spell resistance, let alone need to. This meaning that for most circumstances, it doesn't really matter if health or resistance is more bang for your buck, at least for tanks.

As for the times when it does matter, like in PVP or when only building an off-tank, I find it useful to look not at what gets you more bang for your buck for average scenarios, as adding max health or more damage reduction will be roughly equivalent in terms of protecting yourself, but instead what covers for more wide ranging scenarios. Usually this ends up making health more useful, like if an opponent is using something that ignores resistances, or when you're looking to get that extra little healing for a teammate with Polar Wind. If you're looking for the better benefits in average scenarios, you're probably better off with a bit of extra damage mitigation as it'll make healers' jobs a bit easier. The thing to remember about mitigation though, at least in regard to most stats that factor into it, is that it gets diminishing returns the more things you stack into it. The point from that is that either way you go, the best thing for defense is to balance your stats out, rather than try to min/max.

ZOS has changed skills and effects to make it harder to boost damage resistance to ungodly levels, but the damage reduction formula has stayed steady for some time now, so this discussion (and most other semi-recent discussions) remains (and remain) relevant, but this has been my main takeaway from all of that. In terms of how much positive effect increasing a stat has, this is what I've found in my experience:

• Increasing straight damage reduction (like the protection, evasion, and aegis buffs) is really good for the early increases, but less effective as you put more points in.
• Increasing max health (like the toughness buffs) is of average benefit no matter how much max health you already have.
• Physical and spell resistance (like the ward and resolve buffs) are easy enough to hit the cap with they aren't really relevant here, but otherwise scale like straight damage reduction (and don't offer as much benefit as straight damage reduction unless you've already put a ton of points into straight damage reduction).
• Not usually mentioned is health recovery (like the fortitude buffs), but it acts much the opposite of damage reduction. It gives very little benefit when you first start allocating resources to it, but gives exponential benefit the more points you put into it... The game just doesn't allow you to get health recovery to a high enough point where it's relevant at high level play, and health recovery is only useful when you already have enough protection in the first place, which is why most players consider it a wasted stat.
• Healing received (like the vitality buffs) gets a good amount of benefit when you first start putting points toward it, but it quickly turns to doing almost nothing for you when you start putting more points in it.
• Quick mention to healing done and healing taken, which scale exactly like healing received except they only work if you're the one doing the healing and if you're using a health steal effect, respectively.
• Also a quick mention to critical resistance, which scales consistently like max health, except it only applies to PVP, and then only players that rely on crits.

Just lastly I thought I'd remind everyone that max health and health recovery are the only abilities that don't effectively cap out at a certain point, and so are very good once the other abilities have reached the point of negligible increases for the points you invest in them.

But anywho that's just how I look at it. It looks a lot more generally at stuff rather than crunching numbers, but it's a good general guide I personally like to follow.

theHOF123

bakthi wrote: »

While people who seem like they're good at this are talking...

I started as a healer, and still do this most of the time, but I've been tanking lately. ~440CP, Imperial DK, Ebon/Torug, purple except weapons/jewelry. Wearing 1 piece each from Pirate Skele + Chudan because I don't really have anything better for tank yet. Food is longfin or crown, depending. I've allocated 30 points into HP, 20 stam, the rest magic.

Most things, I've been able to tank fine. I haven't done trials; hardest thing has probably been vet WGT (non-HM). Usually I feel like if I block/stun/avoid, I don't take much damage. Life is reasonable.

Tried doing Moon Hunter Keep (vet) with some guildies the other day and it BEAT THE TAR OUT OF ME. We had to call the run after several attempts at Archivist Ernarde, because I just couldn't take the damage from the big WW add; they'd do that one attack (that they can seemingly spam at will), I'd block, and it would take all my HP anyway. I felt bad, because I basically let the group down.

Not in front of my PC, but IIRC my HP is around 35k, resists are mostly good (not at cap, but not super far away). It was just a serious spike...right in my eye. Anyone have advice for these things? Am I just out of my depth tanking that place until I farm certain gear or get more CP? Anything else I should stay away from (or do first)?

@bakthi dude, SAME. I was getting one shotted by trash mobs while blocking and dodge rolling in moon hunter. Granted im CP 260ish...but still Lol

theHOF123

Really appreciate the feedback on this thread by the way. This is what I really enjoy about the game is how many players alternate between sets and styles etc.

Learned a lot thus far on here.

FrancisCrawford

Thanks, everybody!

I'd like to unpack the idea of "diminishing returns" a little bit more. As I see it, and again please correct me if I'm wrong:

• Every investment of CP is subject to diminishing returns in its primary benefit. (Are there any exceptions I'm overlooking?)
• Some investments can get zero return, because of a hard cap. Resistances are the main example.
• As long as you're below hard cap, resistances are oddly subject to INCREASING returns. Increasing mitigation from 0% to 5% reduces your damage by 5%, but increasing it from 45% to 50% lowers your damage by over 9%.
• If outright damage reduction (as opposed to resistances) were ever additive, it would also in effect be subject to increasing returns. But I'm not aware of any cases where it still is. (Am I overlooking any? Perhaps in the area of blocking?)

ZeroXFF

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Thanks, everybody!

I'd like to unpack the idea of "diminishing returns" a little bit more. As I see it, and again please correct me if I'm wrong:

• Every investment of CP is subject to diminishing returns in its primary benefit. (Are there any exceptions I'm overlooking?)
• Some investments can get zero return, because of a hard cap. Resistances are the main example.
• As long as you're below hard cap, resistances are oddly subject to INCREASING returns. Increasing mitigation from 0% to 5% reduces your damage by 5%, but increasing it from 45% to 50% lowers your damage by over 9%.
• If outright damage reduction (as opposed to resistances) were ever additive, it would also in effect be subject to increasing returns. But I'm not aware of any cases where it still is. (Am I overlooking any? Perhaps in the area of blocking?)

Yes, block mitigation works the same way as resistances in this regard and has no cap. With the changes to the heavy armor active skill on PTS a sorc tank can reach 100% mitigation from blocking. Chances are it's going to be nerfed before it goes live, but who knows...

paulsimonps

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Thanks, everybody!

I'd like to unpack the idea of "diminishing returns" a little bit more. As I see it, and again please correct me if I'm wrong:

• Every investment of CP is subject to diminishing returns in its primary benefit. (Are there any exceptions I'm overlooking?)
• Some investments can get zero return, because of a hard cap. Resistances are the main example.
• As long as you're below hard cap, resistances are oddly subject to INCREASING returns. Increasing mitigation from 0% to 5% reduces your damage by 5%, but increasing it from 45% to 50% lowers your damage by over 9%.
• If outright damage reduction (as opposed to resistances) were ever additive, it would also in effect be subject to increasing returns. But I'm not aware of any cases where it still is. (Am I overlooking any? Perhaps in the area of blocking?)

@FrancisCrawford

Extra blocking mitigation is additive with each other. Currently on PTS this has made it so that Sorcerers can stack blocking mitigation to reach over 100% mitigation making them take literally zero damage for about 3 seconds at a time.