You can only have 1 orb active at a time: Why this should NOT go live

xeNNNNN

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Orbs should be on a 3 second cooldown. Big nerf but still manageable.

Healing springs should have have its total healing done nerfed by half but still work the same way it always does.

I agree with the latter of your comment, if they wanted to nerf over healing they should of just curbed the numbers instead of screwing healers with functionality changes.

i.e diminishing returns from multiple stacked springs and orbs:

Healing Springs:
"If there are 3 healing springs stacked from a single source, 1 healing spring will heal for its full amount the 2nd will have 25% reduced healing done, the 3rd will have 50% reduced healing done"

Energy Orbs:
"If more than 3 orbs are out from one source at any one time reduce the healing done of excessive orbs by 50%"

Because honestly you should only be throwing out 3 at any one time and it would by default negate the whole issue of people "spamming" springs as everyone who isn't a healer has come to believe some how. No functionality change needed.

code65536

The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.

It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.

So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.

If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.

Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.

It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.

And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.

That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.

Suddwrath

code65536 wrote: »

It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.

This is honestly what it feels like. And you’d think that a gameplay designer would have at least given us some sort of explanation as to what their reasons were for making the changes to orbs and healing springs.

The communication with these changes has been extremely lacking.

MagiiC_One

@ZOS_GinaBruno pls remove all snares, slows and stuns from the game. this will help more to improve server performance than the healing nerf.

thx

Iskiab

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Orbs should be on a 3 second cooldown. Big nerf but still manageable.

Healing springs should have have its total healing done nerfed by half but still work the same way it always does.

Half the healing as live? That would be terrible.

I think the PTS change is better. One cast for a lot of healing sounds better to me. Maybe reduce the cost a touch and it’ll be fine.

Seraphayel

Iskiab wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Orbs should be on a 3 second cooldown. Big nerf but still manageable.

Healing springs should have have its total healing done nerfed by half but still work the same way it always does.

Half the healing as live? That would be terrible.

I think the PTS change is better. One cast for a lot of healing sounds better to me. Maybe reduce the cost a touch and it’ll be fine.

Well, the healing output was drastically nerfed on PTS, too.

The_Auror

I can deal with a multi synergy orb. My biggest issue is the springs change because 5 years worth of trial encounters have been balanced around the skill. I have no faith that each of these will be rebalanced correctly, if at all.

Sure, there might ways to get through most of the heal checks. Maybe if the tanks and DDs run CoP, Barrier and Vigor there will be just enough healing to get through it. But what's the point of the healing role if they need extensive help from everyone else to get through any heal checks, the mechanics designed solely for them? They become nothing more than a buff class, something to stack Olo/IA and combat prayer on. The added rotation downtime will only add to the feeling of worthlessness.

Now let's say they do go back and alter existing encounters so that two healers outputting their measly 3k hps are enough for vHoF HM execute. Why not bring 9 stamina dps with vigor and throw the support sets on a Magplar? The fact that a dps can output more hps using one independent skill than a dedicated healer stacking skills and using a healing staff is absurd. Don't worry though, I expect vigor to be also nerfed before the patch drops with no changes to springs or existing encounters. That's just how things work around here.

The only people I see that like this change are pvpers who are happy they might get an extra kill or two now. And lol if you think this will affect Cyrodiil performance at all.

amasuriel

Another issue with these changes that I don't think has been really touched on directly, is that is further cements stack and burn type strats so everyone can be in the same single stack where at all possible. It's basically going to be key that everyone is clumped together as much as possible, even more than today, otherwise they won't get heals or synergies.

Does everyone really want every trial strat to be to bunch up into a single animated tangle of arms and legs except where absolutely impossible like starfall? Is that the combat vision? Even in starfall as an example, it will be about staying as close together as without overlapping. That is true to an extent now, but there is a lot of margin for error which really helps less coordinated teams.

If this goes live, you will just have 2-3 mag DDs with an orb in their rotation and 6-7 stam DDs with vigor who will overheal everything like crazy. One "healer" with Olo/IA and a resto staff for combat prayer. DPS will actually go up I think since phases without heavy healing required people will go full DPS. If they nerf vigor to prevent this so many fights will be basically impossible.

And for the people saying "ZoS will just adjust difficulty of those trials"...I mean vAS had unfixed bugs with Felms jumps for months that made it extremely hard, HRC breaks for a few weeks every other patch. Do you really believe the same team that can't fix critical trial bugs for long periods of time (whether because of competence or resourcing/prioritization) is going to be able to overhaul and tune every trial in the game? No, just a bunch of trial content will be unplayable for the majority of the playerbase.

On the upside I guess they can stop wasting resources on trials and just do dungeons/PvP/questing since there won't be any raid community left.

Suddwrath

amasuriel wrote: »

And for the people saying "ZoS will just adjust difficulty of those trials"...I mean vAS had unfixed bugs with Felms jumps for months that made it extremely hard, HRC breaks for a few weeks every other patch. Do you really believe the same team that can't fix critical trial bugs for long periods of time (whether because of competence or resourcing/prioritization) is going to be able to overhaul and tune every trial in the game? No, just a bunch of trial content will be unplayable for the majority of the playerbase.

I would imagine they would only have to adjust the amount of damage being done rather than change the way the mechanic itself functions...but you still have a solid point.

Nightingale707

Iskiab wrote: »

Half the healing as live? That would be terrible.

I think the PTS change is better. One cast for a lot of healing sounds better to me. Maybe reduce the cost a touch and it’ll be fine.

Actually, they nerfed it to 1/6-1/8 of the healing done on live!

On live you can stack up to 4 casts of illustrious healing, each ticking at 2.5k hps (for easy numbers) -> 10k hps inside the "springspam" before crits
On PTS you can have 1 single cast down that heals for 1.5k hps... the difference is... noticeable? ^^
notice that depending on build you can get higher tooltips on live, while the PTS tooltip is already pretty high (from what I tested)

As it is now on PTS, the most powerful and at the same time cheapest heal in the game is vigor, and it scales better with weapon damage than with maximum stamina, so DD specs get the most out of it.
Also ring of preservation on a stamDD heals for more and longer than springs (tooltip around 900 heals/0,5 sec -> 1,8k hps for a duration of 30sec)

Iskiab

The group hot Vigor doesn’t stack from what someone else was saying. That means one stam healer would be good but they can’t replace magicka.

I think one issue with the feedback so far is it’s from people who play high end specs but didn’t design them. They basicly cut and pasted their build and have no idea how to adapt to changes.

I mean, dps are going from 80 to 100k dps. Maybe what’s needed is an extra healer. Even in HoF HM I’d try: DK tank, X Tank, NB healer, Templar Healer, Stamwarden stam healer/dps mix, 2 magplar dps using ritual of retribution, 5 dps with one being a sorc and I bet they’d be fine.

I’m not saying the changes are perfect, but I bet all the score guilds are theirycrafting their comps now and aren’t interested in sharing how they’ll adapt.

TheNightflame

Iskiab wrote: »

[...] I’m not saying the changes are perfect, but I bet all the score guilds are theirycrafting their comps now and aren’t interested in sharing how they’ll adapt.

the top tier guilds share their knowledge like CRAZY, for real, they're the best content creators

Nightingale707

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Aznarb

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Dunno what CBP is (I play in French) but even my guild who do not score push is already making build with Stam slotting Vigor Echo and Magicka slotting Mystic orb cuz we think it's the best and easiest way to not lose sustain heal/resource and don't make the healer run everywhere for land orb at perfect spot.

I still think 2 healer will be in raid, but they gonna have to spam prayer way more often since it's probably gonna be the main heal for most of them.
Dunno about stam healer, the power heal look good but area still to tiny imho.

Edit : typo.

Varana

CBP was meant to be Combat Prayer, I think, even though the abbreviation is a bit weird.

TheNightflame

Aznarb wrote: »

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Dunno what CBP is (I play in French) but even my guild who do not score push is already making build with Stam slotting Vigor Echo and Magicka slotting Mystic orb cuz we think it's the best and easiest way to not lose sustain heal/resource and don't make the healer run everywhere for land orb at perfect spot.

I still think 2 healer will be in raid, but they gonna have to spam prayer way more often since it's probably gonna be the main heal for most of them.
Dunno about stam healer, the power heal look good but area still to tiny imho.

Edit : typo.

and does that aound like a fun playstyle that rewards good gameplay?

FakeFox

Seraphayel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

radbeard wrote: »

please bring on the one orb change. This is a good and healthy change. Maybe tweaks are needed in some other healing abilities to compensate, but this is a good change. People afraid of change will adapt once they have new guides to follow.

ROTFL. You... realize that the people saying that this change is bad are the people who make those guides, right?

Then it should be easy for them to come up with other solutions or workarounds, right? Unfortunately I haven’t read one yet although - if not them who else - they should be capable of figuring out ways to counter the nerfs by new set / build ideas.

Builds will not change much as offensive support still trumps everything. Sets will stay more or less the same and skills as well, with maybe one or two spots being replaced with either additional synergies or aoe healing. The most significant change will be the stat balance. Healers need basically no sustain anymore and can go full spellpower to counter the loss in healing.

actosh

FakeFox wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

radbeard wrote: »

please bring on the one orb change. This is a good and healthy change. Maybe tweaks are needed in some other healing abilities to compensate, but this is a good change. People afraid of change will adapt once they have new guides to follow.

ROTFL. You... realize that the people saying that this change is bad are the people who make those guides, right?

Then it should be easy for them to come up with other solutions or workarounds, right? Unfortunately I haven’t read one yet although - if not them who else - they should be capable of figuring out ways to counter the nerfs by new set / build ideas.

Builds will not change much as offensive support still trumps everything. Sets will stay more or less the same and skills as well, with maybe one or two spots being replaced with either additional synergies or aoe healing. The most significant change will be the stat balance. Healers need basically no sustain anymore and can go full spellpower to counter the loss in healing.

Could also change mundus to apprentice (was that the spell dmg thingy) or ritual.

exeeter702

Healing throughput aside. In regards to accuracy and expedience in delivering resource synergy to an intended target, shards wins that fight every single time over shards. The trade off has always been said accuracy and speed of shards vs broader target reach in same time frame via orbs.

If trail wide healing turns out to be far less dire as most are claiming, shards will overtake orbs in almost every scenario.

Shards overtaking orbs in almost every scenario is a complete death knell to every non templar healer healing content that demands resource sustain utility.

TheNightflame

the healer with the best hps actually is the necro healer, which will be more useful next patch in a lot of places as shown by code and his runs of MGF hardmode on the PTS.

necro is the best mag dps, stam dps, and healer (in some settings) next patch.

Aznarb

TheNightflame wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Dunno what CBP is (I play in French) but even my guild who do not score push is already making build with Stam slotting Vigor Echo and Magicka slotting Mystic orb cuz we think it's the best and easiest way to not lose sustain heal/resource and don't make the healer run everywhere for land orb at perfect spot.

I still think 2 healer will be in raid, but they gonna have to spam prayer way more often since it's probably gonna be the main heal for most of them.
Dunno about stam healer, the power heal look good but area still to tiny imho.

Edit : typo.

and does that aound like a fun playstyle that rewards good gameplay?

I've never said is gonna be fun, was just confirmed what you said.

SaintSubwayy

Iskiab wrote: »

The group hot Vigor doesn’t stack from what someone else was saying. That means one stam healer would be good but they can’t replace magicka.

I think one issue with the feedback so far is it’s from people who play high end specs but didn’t design them. They basicly cut and pasted their build and have no idea how to adapt to changes.

I mean, dps are going from 80 to 100k dps. Maybe what’s needed is an extra healer. Even in HoF HM I’d try: DK tank, X Tank, NB healer, Templar Healer, Stamwarden stam healer/dps mix, 2 magplar dps using ritual of retribution, 5 dps with one being a sorc and I bet they’d be fine.

I’m not saying the changes are perfect, but I bet all the score guilds are theirycrafting their comps now and aren’t interested in sharing how they’ll adapt.

NB healer...you serious??
The meta setup for something like vHoF HM will be DK offtank, NB Maintank, Temp and Warden healer and all DDs stamnecro
Which works for nearly all trials except vSS HM where you can add 1 Necro offtank on endboss / DD for the rest of the trial
And 1 stamNB as buffbith for downstairs

IMO those changes seem pretty good, especially sustainwise it will become much easier for the healers...so jewelry enchats can be changed to spelldmg

BooPerScOOper

code65536 wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.

It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.

So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.

If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.

Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.

It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.

And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.

That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.

Agreed

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

In pve people heal 1000% more than they need too, there is no real thought apart from spamming 2 skills really.

Why don't you actually show some numbers that you didn't just pull out of your derriere?

Assembly General Execute:


Lokkestiiz HM Beam/Static:


1000% overhealing? More like 50-60%. And it's good to have margins for error. The nerfs to orbs/springs are on the order of 75-85%, mostly through the elimination of their stacking. The amount of overhealing in critical trials mechanics do not warrant that kind of change.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Maybe the thought is that they don't want end game healing to be to build to sustain and then just spam 2 skills, maybe use a utility skill/ proc sets.

It's clear from statements like this that you have no idea what healers actually do. Fortunately, we have this nice thing called esologs that lets me as a raid lead see what my healers are actually doing.



So... just two skills, right? Maybe you should get to know what healers do before giving us any further demonstrations of your ignorance.

Swap weapons is op and healers spam it too much

TheNightflame

Aznarb wrote: »

TheNightflame wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Dunno what CBP is (I play in French) but even my guild who do not score push is already making build with Stam slotting Vigor Echo and Magicka slotting Mystic orb cuz we think it's the best and easiest way to not lose sustain heal/resource and don't make the healer run everywhere for land orb at perfect spot.

I still think 2 healer will be in raid, but they gonna have to spam prayer way more often since it's probably gonna be the main heal for most of them.
Dunno about stam healer, the power heal look good but area still to tiny imho.

Edit : typo.

and does that aound like a fun playstyle that rewards good gameplay?

I've never said is gonna be fun, was just confirmed what you said.

That's true, you never said it was ideal. I'm sorry for making it sound so directed at you, it's the changes I'm disgruntled by. giving you an awesome as an apology

SugaComa

My first question is how many here are on the pts to answer this and how many are reading the notes and making assumptions

I ask as I'm s reader not played (until the console it's is a thing) and my interpretation was orbs still "fire" as they do know but if I have say 5 on screen and a players synergizes one of them the remaining four instead of losing the synergy option will still have it so everyone will be able to synergize, and this is done because in a dynamic fight keeping those balls tracking over the players takes skill and to have that skill lose its potential for everyone is s bit ***

Unlike say spear shard which is a drop n repeat procedure

Iskiab

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

The group hot Vigor doesn’t stack from what someone else was saying. That means one stam healer would be good but they can’t replace magicka.

I think one issue with the feedback so far is it’s from people who play high end specs but didn’t design them. They basicly cut and pasted their build and have no idea how to adapt to changes.

I mean, dps are going from 80 to 100k dps. Maybe what’s needed is an extra healer. Even in HoF HM I’d try: DK tank, X Tank, NB healer, Templar Healer, Stamwarden stam healer/dps mix, 2 magplar dps using ritual of retribution, 5 dps with one being a sorc and I bet they’d be fine.

I’m not saying the changes are perfect, but I bet all the score guilds are theirycrafting their comps now and aren’t interested in sharing how they’ll adapt.

NB healer...you serious??
The meta setup for something like vHoF HM will be DK offtank, NB Maintank, Temp and Warden healer and all DDs stamnecro
Which works for nearly all trials except vSS HM where you can add 1 Necro offtank on endboss / DD for the rest of the trial
And 1 stamNB as buffbith for downstairs

IMO those changes seem pretty good, especially sustainwise it will become much easier for the healers...so jewelry enchats can be changed to spelldmg

Yea, looking more at stamhealing they’ll be OP. Only change required is for the Warden to change from mag to stam. A Stamwarden in a good build can pump out close to 100k HPS.

I’ve healed vHoF as a NB. Just wouldn’t be ideal this patch.

Aznarb

TheNightflame wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

TheNightflame wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@Iskiab I was on PTS, and 2 vigors stack. tested it with guildies.

and thanks for the assumptions, but a lot of us do not just copy/paste builds but try *** out. why do you think I know tooltips from PTS and live? because I made template characters of all classes and checked them.

the score guilds will slap vigor on every DD and have one healer with CBP and call it a day...

Dunno what CBP is (I play in French) but even my guild who do not score push is already making build with Stam slotting Vigor Echo and Magicka slotting Mystic orb cuz we think it's the best and easiest way to not lose sustain heal/resource and don't make the healer run everywhere for land orb at perfect spot.

I still think 2 healer will be in raid, but they gonna have to spam prayer way more often since it's probably gonna be the main heal for most of them.
Dunno about stam healer, the power heal look good but area still to tiny imho.

Edit : typo.

and does that aound like a fun playstyle that rewards good gameplay?

I've never said is gonna be fun, was just confirmed what you said.

That's true, you never said it was ideal. I'm sorry for making it sound so directed at you, it's the changes I'm disgruntled by. giving you an awesome as an apology

Np buddy.