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Let's talk about the healing changes...
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rustyfish101 wrote: »@Jeremy @MehrunesFlagon give it a break, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing how to heal, its discussing how these changes aren't good for hardcore/intense endgame healing. You want to argue with everyone about that please make your own thread about it, you're just derailing this one unnecessarily.
Spamming orbs is not interesting game play - not on any content.
It needed to go extinct. Now that doesn't mean healers shouldn't be given stronger alternatives to compensate. With that I fully agree. But spamming orbs should have never been what healing was about. That was the point I was initially trying to make - and that is certainly relevant here as it relates to these healing changes.Edited by Jeremy on July 9, 2019 7:20PM0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rustyfish101 wrote: »Rustyfish101 wrote: »Rustyfish101 wrote: »@Jeremy give it a break, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing how to heal, its discussing how these changes aren't good for hardcore/intense endgame healing. You want to argue with everyone about that please make your own thread about it, you're just derailing this one unnecessarily.
You should take your own advice in this regard Rustyfish and you give it a break.
I am discussing the changes to heals - and why doing away with spamming orbs is a good thing for the game.
IF you don't want to argue with me - then don't argue with me.
I've been staying away from commenting on this for the last few days for that exact reason but I'm getting sick of you derailing my thread. I was not trying to start an argument I was politely asking you to stop arguing with everyone. /facepalm
Then put me on ignore and stop arguing with me. Your problem is solved. Because as of now - you are the one starting an argument with me. So you are the cause of your own problem.
I think the mods should probably deal with this tbh, this thread has gotten way too off track @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
I hope the mods do get involved - as they will clearly see you are the one picking a fight with me.
Dude you’re the only one derailing here. The only one.
Healing is a support role. Support involves healing, buffing, and debuffing. If all you’re doing is healing, you are not useful to your group.
These changes remove the buffer time of stacked HoTs so healers can support their group, which is exclusively a bad change.
Your ineffective heals-only, no-buffs, I-don’t-have-to-help-the-group-sustain playstyle is even more affected by these changes because what are you going to do after you’ve cast you one springs and one orb?
Are you going to spam combat prayer instead and drain your magicka for a shorter reach and redundant early buff refreshing?
Are you going to spend the entire duration of the single healing springs trying to stacks up mutagen on your group, which will cost 32k magicka along with taking 12 GCDs?
Are you going to dps for that time?
What content have you healed exactly? Have you healed the vet Crag trials? Have you healed vCR? Have you healed vMoL? If you haven’t, then please do everyone a favor and stop trying to derail this thread trying to talk about a glaringly, objectively bad upheaval to the healing role, especially as it pertains to any off-meta healer class.
I love how the same posters who are accusing me of "derailing" this thread are the same ones who are so intent on keeping this particular discussion alive.
I've already posted what the role of a healer is - as defined by the game. I'm content to leave it there.
No, the game provides skills that buff and debuff enemies to potential healers. It suggests group sustain tools. The game says you are wrong in thinking healing is only about being a healbot.
People want an actual discussion. Not someone saying “get over it, I hate the healing role in ESO” and then pretending you’re trying to be logical by twisting what the a support role entails.
A tank that does nothing but taunt is a bad tank, easily matched by a competent DD with a taunt and decent survivability. A healer that does nothing but heal is a bad healer, also easily matched by a competent DD just by slotting a couple off-heals.
They may fulfill some bare minimums, but those types of “tanks” and “supports” are not very usefulEdited by Jhalin on July 9, 2019 7:15PM5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rustyfish101 wrote: »Rustyfish101 wrote: »Rustyfish101 wrote: »@Jeremy give it a break, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing how to heal, its discussing how these changes aren't good for hardcore/intense endgame healing. You want to argue with everyone about that please make your own thread about it, you're just derailing this one unnecessarily.
You should take your own advice in this regard Rustyfish and you give it a break.
I am discussing the changes to heals - and why doing away with spamming orbs is a good thing for the game.
IF you don't want to argue with me - then don't argue with me.
I've been staying away from commenting on this for the last few days for that exact reason but I'm getting sick of you derailing my thread. I was not trying to start an argument I was politely asking you to stop arguing with everyone. /facepalm
Then put me on ignore and stop arguing with me. Your problem is solved. Because as of now - you are the one starting an argument with me. So you are the cause of your own problem.
I think the mods should probably deal with this tbh, this thread has gotten way too off track @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
I hope the mods do get involved - as they will clearly see you are the one picking a fight with me.
Dude you’re the only one derailing here. The only one.
Healing is a support role. Support involves healing, buffing, and debuffing. If all you’re doing is healing, you are not useful to your group.
These changes remove the buffer time of stacked HoTs so healers can support their group, which is exclusively a bad change.
Your ineffective heals-only, no-buffs, I-don’t-have-to-help-the-group-sustain playstyle is even more affected by these changes because what are you going to do after you’ve cast you one springs and one orb?
Are you going to spam combat prayer instead and drain your magicka for a shorter reach and redundant early buff refreshing?
Are you going to spend the entire duration of the single healing springs trying to stacks up mutagen on your group, which will cost 32k magicka along with taking 12 GCDs?
Are you going to dps for that time?
What content have you healed exactly? Have you healed the vet Crag trials? Have you healed vCR? Have you healed vMoL? If you haven’t, then please do everyone a favor and stop trying to derail this thread trying to talk about a glaringly, objectively bad upheaval to the healing role, especially as it pertains to any off-meta healer class.
I love how the same posters who are accusing me of "derailing" this thread are the same ones who are so intent on keeping this particular discussion alive.
I've already posted what the role of a healer is - as defined by the game. I'm content to leave it there.
No, the game provides skills that buff and debuff enemies to potential healers. It suggests group sustain tools. The game says you are wrong in thinking healing is only about being a healbot.
People want an actual discussion. Not someone saying “get over it, I hate the healing role in ESO” and then pretending you’re trying to be logical by twisting what the a support role entails.
A tank that does nothing but taunt is a bad tank, easily matched by a competent DD with a taunt and decent survivability. A healer that does nothing but heal is a bad healer, also easily matched by a competent DD just by slotting a couple off-heals.
They may fulfill some bare minimums, but those types of “tanks” and “supports” are not very useful
I've already told you I am no longer going to engage this topic with you on this thread. So please stop trying to lure me into "derailing" this thread.
If you want to discuss this topic further with me, make your own thread about it and I may join you there. Because I'm tired of posters inviting me to talk about this then getting on my case when I do.Edited by Jeremy on July 9, 2019 7:18PM0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
The changes to regeneration show promise. So hopefully this is a start and the developers will actually start to make their actual healing abilities more effective.Edited by Jeremy on July 9, 2019 7:22PM0 -
BennyButton✭✭✭✭it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
this is the dumbest way of thinking ever.
Various end game trials have "heal checks" this means that because the healing that was possible previous to this pts patch is no longer possible, healers will likely not meet the heal checks built into the trials.
Adapting is cool and all, but when it is literally written in the mechanics, there is nothing we can do.
9 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Non-meta healing classes have no options to adapt with
What’s a DK healer supposed to do to adapt, especially when their class healing got nerfed too4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.
The obsession for obs was way out of control.
I even had people in Fungal Grotto 1 once demanding it and threatening to leave if the healer did not use it. So when you say people redeem it as mandatory - that's not even an exaggeration. Many people literally will not even play with a healer who doesn't spam that spell. So if these changes put an end to that - it will be worth it to me if for no other reason.
It's become the new retribution.Edited by Jeremy on July 9, 2019 7:28PM2 -
BennyButton✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.
The obsession for obs was way out of control.
I even had people in Fungal Grotto 1 once demanding it and threatening to leave if the healer did not use it. So when you say people redeem it as mandatory - that's not even an exaggeration. Many people literally will not even play with a healer who doesn't spam that spell. So if these changes put an end to that - it will be worth it to me if for no other reason.
It's become the new retribution.
someone's just mad he wasn't picked to be on a team to heal because he didn't understand the job of the healer9 -
jbjondeaueb17_ESO✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »CipherNine wrote: »I do wonder how many current healers will continue to play a healer role next patch. Most of the players I see cheering about this patch are not healers. They are dps, with a large number of them stamina dps. And dps, in general, have never been interested in healing for anything. The changes they are making are quite vast. I suspect that some healers, who enjoy the current game play, will be turned off from these changes. Only time will tell. But wouldn't it be hilarious if dps begin complaining in the future about a lack of healers for pledges, pvp, and trials. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they will get their desire to 4-man or 12-man dps everything.
I am a healer and I have no interest in playing a DPS i find it boring. I don't want to tank that much either. So if they destroy the healer role and make boring and not fun to play. Then I won't be playing anymore. Especially since I don't want to play any other role
How would the healer role be less complex or more boring after that patch when healing gets more difficult and you have to do more now to achieve a similar result? By limiting Orb/Springs (ab)use to one instance at a time you have to find other ways of compensating which makes the role more and not less interesting. Relying on solely two skills to get the job done is what I call boring.
To all who will respond with “there’s more to healing than just Springs/Orb spam“ yes absolutely, there is. So why the obsession with those two skills (or at least Orbs) if there’s so much more a healer has to do? All the reactions to the Orb changes are exactly the reason it gets changed. Too much leverage on one single skill.
Are you a healer? Do you play a healer on a regular basis?
I do. Why aren’t you answering my question(s)?
My bars already had 9/10 different skills as healer, but with this change if orbs I don't see the point in even slotting it, eVercingetorix wrote: »This patch represents an opportunity for the truly talented healers to simply adapt and learn new strategies to do their job. The trash healers will continue to cry and complain because god forbid they learn how to do something other than mash a few spells ad nauseum:
- Major Slayer uptime is getting nerfed - deal with it.
- If you want frequent synergies, slot other skills to provide more of them.
- If you want more healing sources, slot other skills to provide more of it.
It's time for healers to finally develop a proper healing rotation of many spells, rather than spamming a few spells. Adapt.
Yep, you're right, as healer i was only managing a 9-10 skills rotation (depending of using Guard or not), and i would be really happy for you to explain to me how to use more than 10 skills, like you seem able to do !Pain-Healer - Argonian Templar Healer (EP) - Immortal Redeemer - Gryphon's Heart
Guild : Ghosts and Goblins Target Dummies
Players know me as Jeban5 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »This patch represents an opportunity for the truly talented healers to simply adapt and learn new strategies to do their job. The trash healers will continue to cry and complain because god forbid they learn how to do something other than mash a few spells ad nauseum:
- Major Slayer uptime is getting nerfed - deal with it.
- If you want frequent synergies, slot other skills to provide more of them.
- If you want more healing sources, slot other skills to provide more of it.
It's time for healers to finally develop a proper healing rotation of many spells, rather than spamming a few spells. Adapt.
Yeah, spamming orbs doesn't exactly sound like quality game play to me.
Exactly. There's even a new dungeon set that mimics the Orb resource return effect that healers can work in if they want to. The patch forces change - this is a good thing. Abilities that were regarded as useless in the past are now valuable because they offer another synergy. Groups will need to make gear choices to either rely less on synergies or gain more benefit from them (Harmony).“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”2 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭halucin0g3n wrote: »With these changes other healer races than Templars will be refused in trials. Templars has blazing spear so they can provide more resources. Persons who made these changes i believe they never played the game.
The real problem is this game doesn't have a support class - so people look to healers and tanks to provide buffs to damage and resource regeneration instead of actual tanking and healing.
From what I've seen - these new changes are actually beneficial to healers who are not Templars.
Regeneration:
Increased the healing per tick by approximately 98%, but reduced duration to 10 seconds. It now only hits 1 ally per cast.
Increased cost to 2700 from 2160.
Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now doubles the frequency but halves the duration.
Alchuri Templar Healer /dps
The regen from Restoration Staff is one of the better heals available to all healers - especially after these buffs if this insert is to be believed. So from a pure healing perspective - It's hard for me to see how these changes are anything but a buff to healers generally - including the non Templar variety. Healers aren't suppose to be resource batteries anyway. They are suppose to be, well... healers.
So you are proposing that healers should be happy about a skill that just more than doubled in cost (1 target instead of 2 + cost increase), has no reliable way of targeting and is absolutely not viable at healing a 12 man group (under perfect conditions (every cast hitting a new person) two healers will need 6 GCDs to apply Regeneration to everyone and it will have to be reapplied 4 GCDs later)?
Yep, great buffs we are talking about here...
From what I see - yeah I would expect healers to be happy. It increases the tick by 98%, I would gladly take having to cast an ability twice for double the potency. After reading this change - it's actually making me think of breaking out my healer again as regeneration is one of the few heals you don't have to be staring at a person to cast on or have them stacked on top of you.
They also cut the duration in half. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how is Regeneration such a buff in a 12 man... Healing 4 mans is not hard and is not even required in most cases.
My comments aren't limited to trials.
But even in trials, I would expect the nrew regen capable of more healing now. 98% is a huge buff.
And the problem in this thread is limited to trials... Healing four people in a situation where healing is not even needed (1 tank/3 DD will be even more potent next patch) is not hard. Healing twelve people through a serious healcheck is a problem. And you might not be aware, but damage in trials does not happen on a one by one basis. All twelve players take heavy damage simultaneously and single target HoTs will do jacksh*t to save your group there.
This thread is about the changes to healing. NO where in the OP did it say this conversation was only about veteran trials. Not every comment I make has to be about what you want to talk about.
Though even in a trial situation - I would still imagine this new regen would outperform the old. So it's a moot point anyway.
Oh, really?Rustyfish101 wrote: »Which while overpowered is necessary sometimes for especially difficult fights in endgame PvE such as DLC dungeons and trials (vCR/vHoF anyone?).Rustyfish101 wrote: »Limiting it to one at a time will have the DPS going nuts for the now rare synergy in a 12 person trial.
These are quotes from the first post in the thread. It really is about trials. And you are still failing to grasp that no matter how good a single target HoT is it is not suitable for healing a big group.
Also this.As a healer myself. These changes are a punch in the guts.
One of my healers is a bosmer templar healer and I ALWAYS get sh|t for it. "oh you can't heal properly, oh you will struggle with mag resources" etc. Etc. I loved to prove them wrong and show my bosmer healer is just as good. These healer changes will actually change this. Rapid regeneration was something I always had up for my group. Now it will be too expensive to cast. Will need to cast it 4 bloody times at an increased cost of a total 10,800 mag every 5 seconds. It's a brutal slap in the face. Means I will be needing to do way more heavy attacks for sustain.
And even this.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.
You said you dislike when people are forced to play a build they don't like. Well, good luck getting into group on a non-templar healer next patch.
False. Wardens are still a strong choice for healing as they still have Budding Seeds (plus its synergy) and passives that help with healing. Minor Toughness is also still a nice buff to have. If a group turns away a Warden for the healing role, then they are trash and that Warden is better off avoiding them anyway.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vercingetorix wrote: »halucin0g3n wrote: »With these changes other healer races than Templars will be refused in trials. Templars has blazing spear so they can provide more resources. Persons who made these changes i believe they never played the game.
The real problem is this game doesn't have a support class - so people look to healers and tanks to provide buffs to damage and resource regeneration instead of actual tanking and healing.
From what I've seen - these new changes are actually beneficial to healers who are not Templars.
Regeneration:
Increased the healing per tick by approximately 98%, but reduced duration to 10 seconds. It now only hits 1 ally per cast.
Increased cost to 2700 from 2160.
Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now doubles the frequency but halves the duration.
Alchuri Templar Healer /dps
The regen from Restoration Staff is one of the better heals available to all healers - especially after these buffs if this insert is to be believed. So from a pure healing perspective - It's hard for me to see how these changes are anything but a buff to healers generally - including the non Templar variety. Healers aren't suppose to be resource batteries anyway. They are suppose to be, well... healers.
So you are proposing that healers should be happy about a skill that just more than doubled in cost (1 target instead of 2 + cost increase), has no reliable way of targeting and is absolutely not viable at healing a 12 man group (under perfect conditions (every cast hitting a new person) two healers will need 6 GCDs to apply Regeneration to everyone and it will have to be reapplied 4 GCDs later)?
Yep, great buffs we are talking about here...
From what I see - yeah I would expect healers to be happy. It increases the tick by 98%, I would gladly take having to cast an ability twice for double the potency. After reading this change - it's actually making me think of breaking out my healer again as regeneration is one of the few heals you don't have to be staring at a person to cast on or have them stacked on top of you.
They also cut the duration in half. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how is Regeneration such a buff in a 12 man... Healing 4 mans is not hard and is not even required in most cases.
My comments aren't limited to trials.
But even in trials, I would expect the nrew regen capable of more healing now. 98% is a huge buff.
And the problem in this thread is limited to trials... Healing four people in a situation where healing is not even needed (1 tank/3 DD will be even more potent next patch) is not hard. Healing twelve people through a serious healcheck is a problem. And you might not be aware, but damage in trials does not happen on a one by one basis. All twelve players take heavy damage simultaneously and single target HoTs will do jacksh*t to save your group there.
This thread is about the changes to healing. NO where in the OP did it say this conversation was only about veteran trials. Not every comment I make has to be about what you want to talk about.
Though even in a trial situation - I would still imagine this new regen would outperform the old. So it's a moot point anyway.
Oh, really?Rustyfish101 wrote: »Which while overpowered is necessary sometimes for especially difficult fights in endgame PvE such as DLC dungeons and trials (vCR/vHoF anyone?).Rustyfish101 wrote: »Limiting it to one at a time will have the DPS going nuts for the now rare synergy in a 12 person trial.
These are quotes from the first post in the thread. It really is about trials. And you are still failing to grasp that no matter how good a single target HoT is it is not suitable for healing a big group.
Also this.As a healer myself. These changes are a punch in the guts.
One of my healers is a bosmer templar healer and I ALWAYS get sh|t for it. "oh you can't heal properly, oh you will struggle with mag resources" etc. Etc. I loved to prove them wrong and show my bosmer healer is just as good. These healer changes will actually change this. Rapid regeneration was something I always had up for my group. Now it will be too expensive to cast. Will need to cast it 4 bloody times at an increased cost of a total 10,800 mag every 5 seconds. It's a brutal slap in the face. Means I will be needing to do way more heavy attacks for sustain.
And even this.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.
You said you dislike when people are forced to play a build they don't like. Well, good luck getting into group on a non-templar healer next patch.
False. Wardens are still a strong choice for healing as they still have Budding Seeds (plus its synergy) and passives that help with healing. Minor Toughness is also still a nice buff to have. If a group turns away a Warden for the healing role, then they are trash and that Warden is better off avoiding them anyway.
A Warden cannot match the HPS a Templar can with these coming changes. They don’t have a (edit)*non-ultimate class HoT, much less something that can match the new Ritual. Templars run four synergies on live, Wardens run two. PTS probably adds Blood Altar to that list and takes off nova in many fights due to Refreshing Barrier replacing the hefty HoT needed.
But it’s still 3 to 4 in favor of Templar. Templar also has a targeted synergy in Shards, which is in theory offset by orbs persisting when the synergy is used, but orbs are now even slower and have to be held back on recasting until it reaches the tank.
If your off tank needs help on the other side of an encounter, orbs won’t cut it where shards can.
This isn’t to dismiss the power of a Warden healer, but to show that this patch makes healing even more heavily Templar-favored than ever. DK healing got nerfed, sorc’s healing pet got nerfed, and the damage from their synergy providing AoE, and their defensive shields. NBs still offer no non-ult synergies and their healing potential is mediocre at best. Warden’s magicka damage took another hit with the 5.1.0 pts notes too.
It’s ridiculous. I like my Templar healer, but it shouldn’t be the best choice by miles for a competitive trial run.Edited by Jhalin on July 9, 2019 8:10PM8 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.
The obsession for obs was way out of control.
I even had people in Fungal Grotto 1 once demanding it and threatening to leave if the healer did not use it. So when you say people redeem it as mandatory - that's not even an exaggeration. Many people literally will not even play with a healer who doesn't spam that spell. So if these changes put an end to that - it will be worth it to me if for no other reason.
It's become the new retribution.
Honestly those dungeons are so simple.The bosses die so fast you don't even need buffs really in the 1 and 2 dungeons. It's really the dlc and up content where that becomes a concern. Of course we know until they make it so people can opt out of dungeons. We will likely have those that are not very well suited for a smooth run or completion in general.So in that case there are going to be requests to run skills such as ele drain and orb,as many of these have enrage mechanics, or the longer the boss is up the more complex the mechanics become.0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rustyfish101 wrote: »@Jeremy @MehrunesFlagon give it a break, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing how to heal, its discussing how these changes aren't good for hardcore/intense endgame healing. You want to argue with everyone about that please make your own thread about it, you're just derailing this one unnecessarily.
Spamming orbs is not interesting game play - not on any content.
It needed to go extinct. Now that doesn't mean healers shouldn't be given stronger alternatives to compensate. With that I fully agree. But spamming orbs should have never been what healing was about. That was the point I was initially trying to make - and that is certainly relevant here as it relates to these healing changes.
Myself I never wanted spamming.Mere availability is all I desire.Spamming is excessive for some types of content,and likely just wasting resources at times in this case.0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Tourist_McGee wrote: »As someone who prefers to tank or heal, i've always been guided by this old adage:
If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tank's fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own damned fault.
When i'm healing I consider it my top priority to heal; to keep the tank alive, and then the dps. Being a resource battery for the dps would always be a distant second. That being said, i am new to the game, not yet having a toon that's done anything beyond the early public dungeons, so i've not experienced the part of the game where it's the healers job to be a resource battery.
Same here. A healer's priority should always be to heal and keep their allies alive. That is their primary job.
Support is a secondary function if they choose to adopt it.
Saying that over and over like a broken record does not make your point valid.It is not a choice it's an obligation. Might as well give up. I'm very difficult to convince.
And you saying they are support over and over like a broken record doesn't make it a valid point either.
I have evidence to support what I'm saying - because that's how the game itself defines healers. You probably should give up though.
@Jeremy
Here's your evidence. I turned on skill advisor on my healer and it tells me that I need to use shards and force siphon.
I use shards too, and would advice other Templar healers to as well. It's a good move to throw out there when you aren't having to heal.
But that doesn't mean healers are meant to be resource batteries and all healers must use orbs/shards/elemental drain or they should be auto kicked. Their primary function is still to heal.
Also to note shards also heal health as do orbs.I wish I would have thought of this ages ago.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Tourist_McGee wrote: »As someone who prefers to tank or heal, i've always been guided by this old adage:
If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tank's fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own damned fault.
When i'm healing I consider it my top priority to heal; to keep the tank alive, and then the dps. Being a resource battery for the dps would always be a distant second. That being said, i am new to the game, not yet having a toon that's done anything beyond the early public dungeons, so i've not experienced the part of the game where it's the healers job to be a resource battery.
Same here. A healer's priority should always be to heal and keep their allies alive. That is their primary job.
Support is a secondary function if they choose to adopt it.
Saying that over and over like a broken record does not make your point valid.It is not a choice it's an obligation. Might as well give up. I'm very difficult to convince.
And you saying they are support over and over like a broken record doesn't make it a valid point either.
I have evidence to support what I'm saying - because that's how the game itself defines healers. You probably should give up though.
@Jeremy
Here's your evidence. I turned on skill advisor on my healer and it tells me that I need to use shards and force siphon.
I use shards too, and would advice other Templar healers to as well. It's a good move to throw out there when you aren't having to heal.
But that doesn't mean healers are meant to be resource batteries and all healers must use orbs/shards/elemental drain or they should be auto kicked. Their primary function is still to heal.
Also to note shards also heal health as do orbs.I wish I would have thought of this ages ago.
Shards don’t heal players when used5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.Seraphayel wrote: »it's sad that endgame content can't be completed without one specific spell. I think these changes will be good to further develop the healing, and everyone will adapt their builds to it.
Who says so? People that are used to it and redeem it as mandatory. Guess what, it isn't and won't be in the future after these changes go live.
I understand the importance of skills like Healing Springs / Energy Orb but most healers seem to have comfortably settled with how easy those skills could be (ab)used.
There will be ways to deal with it and players will find a solution as soon as U23 is live.
The obsession for obs was way out of control.
I even had people in Fungal Grotto 1 once demanding it and threatening to leave if the healer did not use it. So when you say people redeem it as mandatory - that's not even an exaggeration. Many people literally will not even play with a healer who doesn't spam that spell. So if these changes put an end to that - it will be worth it to me if for no other reason.
It's become the new retribution.
Honestly those dungeons are so simple.The bosses die so fast you don't even need buffs really in the 1 and 2 dungeons. It's really the dlc and up content where that becomes a concern. Of course we know until they make it so people can opt out of dungeons. We will likely have those that are not very well suited for a smooth run or completion in general.So in that case there are going to be requests to run skills such as ele drain and orb,as many of these have enrage mechanics, or the longer the boss is up the more complex the mechanics become.
That was the point I was trying to make. People have become so obsessed with orbs they are even demanding it in dungeons I can literally solo.
It can work both ways too. I was doing Wayrest Sewers other day (another rather easy dungeon) and the healer started fussing at the group because people weren't activating the orbs he was spamming. Though why he felt the need to spam obs is anyone's guess. I certainly didn't need them. Nor did anyone else.
This game has a habit of doing things like this. They get some certain build or skill in their head that everyone must do otherwise they freak out. It happened with Retribution. It used to happen with Spell Power Cure (though I don't see that anymore thank God). Now it's orbs. Though hopefully this patch will change that.
I am generally adverse to conformity in general - but especially when it's absurd conformity.Edited by Jeremy on July 9, 2019 8:32PM0 -
CipherNine✭✭✭✭✭As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.
Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.
With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.PC-NA
Khajiit Templar - Healer
Argonian Necromancer - Healer
Breton Warden - Healer
Nord Necromancer - Tank
Argonian Templar - Tank
Nord Warden - Tank16 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Tourist_McGee wrote: »As someone who prefers to tank or heal, i've always been guided by this old adage:
If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tank's fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own damned fault.
When i'm healing I consider it my top priority to heal; to keep the tank alive, and then the dps. Being a resource battery for the dps would always be a distant second. That being said, i am new to the game, not yet having a toon that's done anything beyond the early public dungeons, so i've not experienced the part of the game where it's the healers job to be a resource battery.
Same here. A healer's priority should always be to heal and keep their allies alive. That is their primary job.
Support is a secondary function if they choose to adopt it.
Saying that over and over like a broken record does not make your point valid.It is not a choice it's an obligation. Might as well give up. I'm very difficult to convince.
And you saying they are support over and over like a broken record doesn't make it a valid point either.
I have evidence to support what I'm saying - because that's how the game itself defines healers. You probably should give up though.
@Jeremy
Here's your evidence. I turned on skill advisor on my healer and it tells me that I need to use shards and force siphon.
I use shards too, and would advice other Templar healers to as well. It's a good move to throw out there when you aren't having to heal.
But that doesn't mean healers are meant to be resource batteries and all healers must use orbs/shards/elemental drain or they should be auto kicked. Their primary function is still to heal.
Also to note shards also heal health as do orbs.I wish I would have thought of this ages ago.
Shards don’t heal players when used
undaunted command can make them.depends if it's on cooldown1 -
gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is this a topic for healing changes or about healers duty?
Unfortunatly these changes makes Templar even more the only choice.
If dev used Extended as an example, Purge could be same as that skill, and everyone will have access to it...
Nowadays all skills are so similar that no one would careEdited by gepe87 on July 9, 2019 10:48PMGepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is this a topic for healing changes or about healers duty?
Unfortunatly these changes makes Templar even more the only choice.
If dev used Extended as an example, Purge could be same as that skill, and everyone will have access to it...
Nowadays all skills are so similar that no one would care
Changes, though it got a bit side tracked.
I healed a few trials back when I played healer and I never had to resort to spamming orbs. So I doubt it's as necessary as some are making out to be, unless things have changed that dramatically (which is possible I suppose).
Either way: spamming orbs or even healing springs isn't quality game play so that kind of style needed to be abandoned regardless. Healers have been in need of more interesting healing options for awhile now. That's one of the reasons I quit playing the role in fact - though these changes are making me consider giving it another go. It's hard for me to imagine there is any healer out there who actually enjoyed spamming orbs or healing springs while begging for people to stack. But who knows, maybe there are some who actually did enjoy that. I'm just not one of them and thought it was very lame. So I"m delighted to see the game moving away from that kind of healing.Edited by Jeremy on July 10, 2019 1:46AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CipherNine wrote: »As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.
Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.
With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.
I would love to see a "blind monkey" heal some of the 4 man pugs I've been in. That would be comical to watch.
As to your second point - have you tried the new regeneration out to compensate for the changes to healing springs? 98% increase in healing looks nice - even with the shorter duration.Edited by Jeremy on July 10, 2019 1:57AM1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unfortunatly these changes makes Templar even more the only choice.
Yeah, this is the only thing that worries me about the healing changes. Templars and to some degree Wardens/Necromancers will be considered the only healers, with Templars being the superior healing class altogether. And using Cleansing Ritual as an example for a skill that could compensate the loss of Healing Springs was quite a bad move. And then they’re nerfing DKs equivalent of Ritual and reduce its healing output by 1/3... that’s an inconsistency I don’t understand.
The healing changes overall are good, the emphasis on Templar healers is absolutely not.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Rustyfish101 wrote: »@Jeremy @MehrunesFlagon give it a break, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing how to heal, its discussing how these changes aren't good for hardcore/intense endgame healing. You want to argue with everyone about that please make your own thread about it, you're just derailing this one unnecessarily.
Spamming orbs is not interesting game play - not on any content.
It needed to go extinct. Now that doesn't mean healers shouldn't be given stronger alternatives to compensate. With that I fully agree. But spamming orbs should have never been what healing was about. That was the point I was initially trying to make - and that is certainly relevant here as it relates to these healing changes.
Myself I never wanted spamming.Mere availability is all I desire.Spamming is excessive for some types of content,and likely just wasting resources at times in this case.
Many did though, and weren't happy unless you kept a steady stream of orbs coming their way. These changes will at least put an end to that and spare healers that nonsense.
I've been a critic of healing on this game for awhile now. It needed some significant changes - and I love the focus on regeneration because that is one of the few heals that operate as a heal should operate. None of that silly positional crap where you have to beg people to stack on top of you or be staring at them to heal them.Edited by Jeremy on July 10, 2019 2:05AM0 -
Rustyfish101✭✭✭I do agree that spamming springs/orbs was getting tiring. My issue with the changes are that springs and orbs got such a huge nerf its hard to say what we should do when we need to majorly heal a group. I went into the PTS a bit ago to test the changes and its obviously a bit more challenging to keep people alive, though not impossible, however when I needed to get people healed quickly I ended up resorting to spamming Combat Prayer which is far less ideal than spamming springs or orbs if you ask me. Not to mention I found a few times I had nothing to do as someone had calculated earlier in this thread (or maybe it was a different thread... they're kinda melding at this point) all my buffs were up and still had 6 seconds before needing to be reapplied and no one needed healing so I just stood there and wondered what I should do. There are improvements, buffs and HoTs line up very nicely now I'll give em that, but its still far from ideal.Tanks:
Fishando - Dragonknight Tank - Master Crafter
Healers:
Rustyfish - Templar Healer
Rozykinz - Warden Healer - Godslayer
Bellafish - Dragonknight Healer
Heals-With-Fish - Nightblade Healer
Fishromancer - Necromancer Healer
DPS:
Rusted Rose - Magicka Sorcerer
Unifish - Magicka Dragonknight
Fishy Cakes - Magicka Templar
Rosy Bell - Magicka Nightblade
Rosyfish - Stamina Templar
Rosy Fish - Stamina Warden
Llamafish - Stamina Nightblade
PC/NA
Founder of Mudcrab Knights, a friendly, welcoming, guild that teaches end game content, specifically trials to everyone who wants to learn!1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CipherNine wrote: »As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.
Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.
With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.
I would love to see a "blind monkey" heal some of the 4 man pugs I've been in. That would be comical to watch.
As to your second point - have you tried the new regeneration out to compensate for the changes to healing springs? 98% increase in healing looks nice - even with the shorter duration.
It goes from 4.6k and 2 GCDs to get Regen on the group, up to 10k and 4 GCDs to get Regen on a group. It takes too long and costs far too muchEdited by Jhalin on July 10, 2019 2:38AM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CipherNine wrote: »As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.
Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.
With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.
I would love to see a "blind monkey" heal some of the 4 man pugs I've been in. That would be comical to watch.
As to your second point - have you tried the new regeneration out to compensate for the changes to healing springs? 98% increase in healing looks nice - even with the shorter duration.
It goes from 4.6k and 2 GCDs to get Regen on the group, up to 10k and 4 GCDs to get Regen on a group. It takes too long and costs far too much
Well you may be right. I haven't tried it yet - and won't be able to try it until it goes live as I don't play on the PTS. So if you've actually used it I won't debate you - at least not until I have tried it out for myself. All I know is that it looks nice on paper.
But even if it does fail as an effective group HoT during times of intense AoE damage - it still looks nice as a quick and effective way to heal players who aren't positioned near or in front of the healer who need some quick healing - which is something I've been asking for for a long time on here. Healing pugs as a healer can be so miserable when you have group members scattered and running all over the place and I have enough gray hair.
But in respect to countering AoE damage - I'll abstain until I have tested this spell out for myself. Though in all honestly I don't see why it at least wouldn't outperform the earlier regeneration. But sometimes looks can be deceiving.
Edited by Jeremy on July 10, 2019 3:06AM0 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Really getting tired of all of these references to healers "spamming" abilities. When you really think about it, even healers who heavily relied on orbs and springs were making more dynamic choices than most DPS rotations, which require "spamming" light attacks to obtain acceptable DPS. To a certain extent the entire GAME is repetitive... there are limited ability slots we can use. But if you were to compare key strokes across fights I guarantee you that light attacks by DPS would outnumber triggered orbs or springs by a large amount.
Additionally there is often a "spammable" DPS ability in rotations... like imbue weapon.
Setting aside the fact that many of us healers do NOT spam abilities thoughtlessly, I'm starting to wonder... why is this even looked down upon if it *is* done? Does it need to be fixed when this playstyle exists and is actually more "required" in other roles? DPS light attack over and over but we must only allow one orb at a time because some healers like to hit that ability over and over???
Ironically the only time I spam orbs is when I'm helping someone parse.
It seems to me that if an ability is relied on too heavily a better way to encourage other abilities is to make them less expensive or more interesting, or increase the cost of over used abilities. But to advocate for these changes because people were "spamming" abilities seems kind of silly. If it's not these abilities it will just be others that are spammed.
I think the whole "spamming" discussion is a red herring. The current WW meta alone is proof that ZOS has no issues with builds that spam one ability! I'm not following the WW changes as closely but the LA meta existed at least for a few patches, since the Wolfhunter DLC.10
