Let's talk about the healing changes...

Ozby

BennyButton wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

It's not just about what you want either. So that's where your argument falls off the rails.

So long as players can get the job done - they should be left alone to play their character as they wish. Demanding that other players change their builds to be more "efficient" is forcing their own priorities onto others - which is the every definition of entitlement.

Your me vs. them mentality is dangerous and laughably not in line with an endgame support player.

If you want to do end game raiding (vDLC HM trials) you create your own non-meta group and have a grand old time. I'll be over here clearing trials.

There are many methods used in eso not just one though should be a bit more open minded.

Ozby

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

how does "end game conformity" impact your game at all?

It impacts the game generally - and leads to a decline in build diversity because it causes many players to abandon their own pursuits in order to appease some endgame guild.

Me personally, it doesn't affect because I could care less what people think of my builds. But it's impact on the game itself is something I do get sick of.

so why do you care about it if it has no impact on your game? A lot of people like to get good at the game, use team play, develop friendships and have fun over nessesarily having a unique build.

And that’s determined by one or two abilities? Again my question, let’s assume the changes go live as they are in the notes: what are you going to do?

If things goes through as is I won't be playing eso anymore as I don't want to play a game getting progressively worse, Orbs allowed me to be insanely effective as a healer. Without them I will be forced to go back to a playstyle with a much lower skill ceiling and I have no intention of doing that. I have no intention of clap healing godslayer when I know what was possible just months before.

So it’s exactly what I said in another thread: one single skill is make or break for your enjoyment of the game. Now tell me, is this the game‘s fault when it changes or is it your fault by putting so much weight on a specific ability? Why couldn’t you just simply build around it or find a way to solve the problem? Wouldn’t that actually be way better, going through sets, skills, builds to create something new that does the trick the same way?

Considering just how few skills are actually viable right now it's not surprising that they would ruin the enjoyment of the game. The two strongest HoTs in the game where not only adjusted, or slightly nerfed. They were fundamentally changed to a point where they are no longer viable for the job they were supposed to perform. I'll tell you this. Mention a single skill in this game that can provide just 50% of the HoT from springs and Orbs. And I might actually consider trying it out. The problem is, there is not a single HoT in the game that can do that. There is no replacement for springs and Orbs, which means that we will have to go back to spamming clap healing to survive execute phases. And the last thing I'll do in my time in ESO is clap healing trials. There is no wonder waiting around the corner that can do the same trick. At least not as of now. Dps players will always find a way because their rotation is a simple calculation "there will always be a BiS setup". But healers have more balls in the air. Healing over time is the key to being a successful healer as it allows global cooldowns to be allocated towards group utility. For the best healers in the world that is 30%. For most healers it's realistically 20% or less. Without access to HoT tools we are just glorified Monster Sets. A singular purpose with no variation.

couldent agree more. There needs to be an alternative if they want to change these skills.

Ozby

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Hulda wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Lia4cqycs

This guy was ahead of time with his healing mechanics. Pretty sure he will be fine after next update. /s

Seems like an incredibly dull way to play though.....I mean sure the healing was good but to play like that would make me just not want to heal. Even if its effective.

I'd probably have to turn off sound effects at some point....combat prayer spam isn't exactly pleasing to the ears either

Haha! thanks for this gave me a good laugh. PS: I will never play like that!

Ozby

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

I agree with the changes to an extent - however at this point not sure why we're all wasting oxygen speculating and gnashing teeth on something that hasn't even hit the PTS yet.

Really how appreciative of groups - and even ourselves - with a healing partner that thinks they're awesome spamming springs - not illustrious even, but springs?! It was a silly way to learn healing for many people in this game resulting in sub-optimal readiness for trials.

I also use illustrious and there are few situations where there aren't alternatives - and having it stack up to 4 times has never been a thing outside vcr / vhof excute phases and I would like to see how this operates on the PTS. I suspect ritual and altar bonuses will help offset this and am wondering if the co-efficient, such as through HOT heal CP, may influence the final number in a way not stated in the notes as yet.

In a 4 man, even in vet dlc hm, the healer right now is better off using Master Architect and Mother's Sorrow really - I might use 2 orbs (1 for each dps), and honestly that already fits with the patch before adjustments. In a bad pug I end up doing 50% group dps + 88%+ heals - in a good group or with guildies sustain is not an issue anyway in the sense of synergising orbs every cool down (esp if you're doing 25k+ dps as healer as well with crescent sweep to proc MA).

Orbs will be an interesting change and it's hard to see how it will survive the ambit notes without adjustment - but then pretending we're more 'skillful' by spamming orbs over illustrious as a general rule is somewhat of a furphy, let's be real.

There are some parts that *are* challenging to heal, but by and large a healer right now can get through vet craglorn without really learning how to play the class to it's fullest potential, causing shock and gap realisation once they hit vhof, vmol, vss and vcr - addressing this isn't a bad thing.

I've always been a fan of using Luminous Shards for the return and placement, and have had disgreements with other healers who are like, "but tank should just use orbs'. Shards are there for a reason, and the main concern here is to make certain other healing specs are able to provide an equivalent return (such as in the form of resource recovery increases on mushrooms etc... - which already exists but comparative implementation now needs to be thought about).

Rotation based on the patch notes will be easier and prima facie we'll see roughly 60% overheal reduction across the board and higher off-balance / minor beserk uptimes (exo-jorvuld). Again, let's test before we swoon onto our beds please.

The last consideration right now too is the vss sets currently - any magdps should be rocking PFG right now and if self-sustain is already up noticeably as a result. Depending on stam I'm wearing hircine now (I'd like my tanks to hurry up and farm that so I can wear torugs XD ) and on some fights my bubbles get popped as soon as I throw them - which means the singular orb change may not be as significantly different as it seems.

Stamdps sustain? Well we have hircine and god forbid we start taking Master's Resto out of the closet. Spamming 3 orbs from behind them in insta-pop synergy? Sounds very much like the current status quo in some setups already.

TLDR - before we start ripping our clothes and wailing while clutching our pearls, let's do some empirical testing on the aptly named PTS please. Also, the full nuances aren't being factored in isolation - I'd like to think that healers, by their nature, are more nuanced and thoughtful - these values are bad, so let's see how it goes.

OMG! I Lol'd so hard at this Could not agree more BTW well said.

BahometZ

Wow, I haven't seen one person so completely devoted to being incorrect and off the mark in a long time, especially in the face of such overwhelming common sense.

For the sake of charity I have to assume that there are more changes to come for class healing or various dungeons and trials damage numbers, because under the current situation:

- anyone who has regular experience of vet trials and dlc dungeons can see there will be moments where groups will simply die to lack of heals, or inability of healer to sustain level of healing required
- goodbye to any healer who isn't a templar or warden
- or better yet, goodbye healer, hello 10 dps with echoing vigor

Zos has to have a better vision for the game than this. They have to. People can say it's week 1 of the PTS but this is when you lay out your thesis, and then tweak it over the coming weeks. If this is their thesis, they gonna flunk.

danara

@Halcyon_blue, Just saw what you wrote thanks to @Ozby Just before me..

I disagree on some points :

1) dont speak about being healer in a 4 Man party, most dunjeon even in HM doesnt require any healer (i think that for vBRP too Btw)
When you speak about doing 25k dps, you are not a healer, Just a bad dd with orbs... Doesnt make you a healer

2) the problem with orbs is not that they are getting nerfed (because they will be activable multiple time ZOS said), but that this is a huge to every other healer class than templar. The things is that right Now templar is the Best healer... It will be even worse after the change if they keep it like that...

3) Hircine set is one of the worst to wear as a healer. So what, you are going to wear a medium set in order to give 4% reduction stam cost? Even if you played it on weapons + jewelry you lost too much... Even know worm set is not relevant in a group if you dont have at 6 magicka dd. Why ? Because a lot of player use breton and the bonus is multiplicative, so the worm is not so powerfull in this case

4) Taking Master Resto Staff out of the close ? Dont make me laugh. Read czrefully the text of this staff, then Read carefully the change to Grand Healing, this staff has been nerfed (and it wasnt so powerfull Btw, even if it is my favorite staff and i keep running it ).
It has been nerfed cause there is not point to spam anymore Grand Healing, and they increase the cost of this spell, so you will ineductably cast it a few time. ..

5) i will not speak about that but with the change they announce there is some content you cant pass through with 2 healer (even 3 healers right know : vCR+3), so what are we going to do ? Run 6 healers in 1 group ?

Conclusion : this change will ask to People to wear optimize gear in order to be effective, so all the mid tier set like worm will dissapear... A lot of build will not be viable anymore, and every class has been nerfed to the ground (AS A HEALER I MEAN, i dont want to speak for dd/tank, idk) except templar.... So we are already have 90% of healer templar, Now it will be a 100%...

What do you think of my thought ? Do you agree/disagree ?

BennyButton

danara wrote: »

5) i will not speak about that but with the change they announce there is some content you cant pass through with 2 healer (even 3 healers right know : vCR+3), so what are we going to do ? Run 6 healers in 1 group ?

uhhh vCR+3 is done with 2 healers

aetherial_heavenn

edited because incorrect quote

As far as PvE goes this is worth looking at..

iLLcrime wrote: »

stileanima wrote: »

Just going to re-post this here from another thread:

Some of my logs for those who are saying that all end game healers currently do is spam Orbs and Springs:



Yes, there are 56 Orb casts, but look at all else that is being done as well: casting many Vigors to proc PA; many Harvests for synergies for Major Slayer; Blockade for Off-Balance; many Combat Prayers for Berserk; Enchanted Growth for Minor Endurance; other skills for other buffs. I hardly cast any Illustrious Healing at all.

Yes, Orbs dominate in that they are the skill I cast most frequently, but this is because 1 Orb offers sustain to 1 DD at a time, whereas all my other skills offer sustained buffs for multiple people at a time. Most Orbs are necessary casts to provide 8 DDs with sustain, not "mindless spam". The overhealing is simply a side effect of needing to throw many Orbs so that my DDs have the necessary resources to do damage.

I do not mention this to say that the current system is flawless, but to drive home that end game healers do more than spam Orbs, and that we throw them largely out of necessity. I hope that if the one Orb change comes to pass, we are given something else to do in between keeping up all of these other long-lasting buffs, and now even longer-lasting HoT that is Grand Healing. Please keep in mind that sustained healing over time is NOT necessary in most raid encounters-- there are short bursts where intensive healing is needed, and then phases where little to no incoming damage happens at all. I would like to still be able to contribute to the group in ways other than "just" healing, or waiting around for healing these high damage moments.

I think a lot of people seem to think the overhealing is just because we spam crap. When they literally tie buffs and support into healing abilities, there's going to be overhealing happening. That's why I asked the question "Where are they getting the idea that healers needed a nerf in the first place". What numbers were they going off of, was it PvE, PvP, a mix of both, Overhealing numbers from ESO Logs? Wherever they got their data from to think these changes were a good thing is just bad.

Indeed.
I said as much several pages ago. Over healing in PvE is the result of a lot of 'healing skills' being the only way of proccing sets/weapons, setting up synergies and providing resources and buffs/debuffs. All of these skills have heals attached.

Multi layering hots to preempt some burst damage is only one aspect of overhealing and the last reason most good healers over heal. Except in very specific content which has been designed to counter healers/as a heal check. This content is very difficult endgame. Most people haven't ever seen it.

The alleged spamminess is because overhealing is almost mandatory to provide support in other ways... From the outside it looks the same when you just measure HpS whether you are doing it to buff/debuff/synergise/proc sets or just because spamming springs orbs is easy.

So where ZoS decided to reduce overhealing was likely from average players data.

I say, yeah healers over heal....but good healers overheal for very good reasons. The above screen shot shows exactly why. ZoS needs to factor that stuff in. I am not sure they have yet. I am still waiting and seeing..

Rustyfish101

Illustrious Healing (morph): Increased the healing per tick of this ability by approximately 50% to better distinguish each morph - one focused on resource sustain, and one focused on raw healing potential.

Energy Orb (morph): Increased the healing per tick of this ability by approximately 20% since the morph only converted functionality, without necessarily improving it.
Combustion and Healing Combustion (synergies of Necrotic Orbs and its morphs): These synergies will no longer remove their parent abilities when activated. This means a single orb can now provide a synergy to anyone in its path, and will not be removed for other players once it is activated.

Well I'm happy they increased the healing done again, this should hopefully help with some of our issues. I still worry it might not be enough for things such as vHoF execute and vCR execute... guess its time to put healing to the test again.