Update on LFG System

Morgul667

Better than nothing
Better now than never

misfitmanic

Ok ZOS. Can you make this new/revamped Group Finder (and the rest of the grouping experience) cross platform? XOXO

Banana

An overloaded server. I dont believe it.

pattyLtd

Omg i prefer having to approve a falsly failed ready check a few times over not being able to queue at all and gaving to retry that for lord knows how long.

Just remove the ready check if thats really the issue.
At least it works after a few unnecessary ready checks, sorry to say but im at the point where i start to worry when I ready they are working on a fix.

labambao

Me & my entire guild left the game because of this and others issues.
You ZOS say that "we focus at new content and new players", but what the sense to focus at new content, when all the content just unplayable?
Like we want some good working project to play. I dont want to stay 40 min in q for bgs and play a 10 min then (btw if you are lead of group in queue for bgs you have a HUGE lag spikes every 10 sec, so you can't do nothing when you are in q)
And finally fix cyro lags. It's time to work.
But what you did - just make us unable to que at all. Thats great decision. You can also get back queue for entering game. That way you get alot of newcomers and money income doing literally nothing.
Have a good day.

mateosalvaje

Thank you for the update, and thank you for doing what you can. I imagine it can be rough being the messenger for these things sometimes, so thank you for sticking with us 🌷

Numerikuu

ccmedaddy wrote: »

lmao I feel bad that Gina had to write this meaningless letter that literally says nothing of value because the devs have been too incompetent and negligent to get one of the core functionalities of an MMO working properly for years.

I really hope they pay her well. It's one thing to shoot the messenger, but at this point it's a machine gun hose-down.

But at the same time... I'm not surprised either, and I can't say I blame those doing the shooting. It's been years now. Y e a r s. Nothing has changed, and we'll all be very surprised if anything ever changes. (Spoilers: It won't.)

Actions with clear results are the only thing that will save them now. If you do not deliver on your word...?

ynimma

I've been sitting in a bugged little pocket universe right now with my char queued in for BG.
The party behind the fire circle is continuously changing because people leave after they have waited a long time to get the 4 members together by the server but never happens.
Wonderful pvp Sunday.
Thanks ZOS for not being able (not really willing to) deliver the very basics of a multiplayer game: the multiplayer itself.

Ashtaris

Gina, I think you should understand our skepticism when almost every year we have heard the story that something is being done about the LFG tool, and we are back again with the same old story. I really hope the word from ZOS is true this time, but lets just say I’ll believe it when I see it.

FrancisCrawford

If, as I conjecture, this is basically a problem in concurrent database operations, one of the more useful people in the world to talk to about it might be me. Further, I know a reasonable fraction of those folks who are yet better than I am. Feel free to ping me if you'd like some help.

Lisutaris

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We’ve been seeing your posts recently about issues with the LFG tool when queuing for dungeons and Battlegrounds, and we’d like to talk to you a bit about its current state and what our plans are moving forward.

Simply put, the LFG tool is not currently up to our standards and not working as you’d expect. We do want to note this isn’t a hardware issue, but is tied to server load; the more people that try to use it, the less stable it becomes, which is counterintuitive to how it should be functioning. This is causing the error messages you’ve been seeing that someone has declined the invite. While we know this has been an existing issue, it is certainly exacerbated by all the new and returning players we’ve seen with Elsweyr’s recent launch on PC.

Yesterday afternoon, we ran a command on the backend for PC that reduced the amount of people that can queue for a dungeon or Battleground. In doing this, you may have noticed an increase in the amount of times you see the message that you’re unable to queue. However, this allows players who are actually in the queue to get into their activity faster and more successfully. When you see the message that you’re unable to queue, please just keep trying until you enter the queue. We understand this situation is far from ideal, but it does at least cycle people through the queue faster and with more reliability.

We want to let you know are actively working on completely revamping the LFG tool to ensure it is more stable and easier to use. This requires a great deal of coding work and will take some time, but our goal is to publish it to everyone later this year. We’ll keep you updated on its progress.

Thank you for all your continued support, and we look forward to rolling out our new LFG system for dungeons and Battlegrounds.

Some communication is better than nothing.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Simply put, the LFG tool is not currently up to our standards and not working as you’d expect. We do want to note this isn’t a hardware issue, but is tied to server load; the more people that try to use it, the less stable it becomes, which is counterintuitive to how it should be functioning. This is causing the error messages you’ve been seeing that someone has declined the invite. While we know this has been an existing issue, it is certainly exacerbated by all the new and returning players we’ve seen with Elsweyr’s recent launch on PC.

I would call that a hardware issue ... less players/load -> working ... primetime... not working.... And if it's not ... let me pray to Jone and Jode. For me it's the same with guild bank, grp invites, guild traders, ... during primetime it takes up to ~30seconds to get a server response.
If it's not and I am wrong... maybe more information about the cause and what the solution will be would be nice. Furthermore, alot of players want a LFG/LFM Tool/Board like it exists in games like Guild Wars... and I don't see any downside on this idea, only benefits. Because of these phased zones right now, it is really difficult to find some grps. The luxury vendor also prefers some phased zones over others

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Yesterday afternoon, we ran a command on the backend for PC that reduced the amount of people that can queue for a dungeon or Battleground. In doing this, you may have noticed an increase in the amount of times you see the message that you’re unable to queue. However, this allows players who are actually in the queue to get into their activity faster and more successfully. When you see the message that you’re unable to queue, please just keep trying until you enter the queue. We understand this situation is far from ideal, but it does at least cycle people through the queue faster and with more reliability.

Well, ZoS understands it is far from ideal. THAT IS GOOD! The current solution is still a joke. That's something you would do after a 15min meeting before your shift is ending... knowing that it is a bad move, but you don't want to spend time.
I am not intending to bash/rant over it. I just want to point out that a "LFG/LFM BOARD" like the search option for guilds would be awesome. Add a refresh button, some symbols for different dungeons/trials and filter options... boom, finished. This would also reduce to load on the grp finder tool... If i want to farm set x in dungeon y... you can list this, players can join you, you can teleport... no grp-tool needed. This move would also solve "pls add trials problem".
Here, a picture of the LFG/LFM board..:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We want to let you know are actively working on completely revamping the LFG tool to ensure it is more stable and easier to use. This requires a great deal of coding work and will take some time, but our goal is to publish it to everyone later this year. We’ll keep you updated on its progress.

YES YES YES ! Complete revamp sounds purrfect!. PLEASE ! ASK YOUR COMMUNITY, LISTEN TO IT ! (features, added stuff, ...)
It's better to make a good copy from a different game and not inventing something awesome looking, new stuff, that's only bugging and not working... just saying.
Tools to grp-up with other players have to be easy to use, convenient, quick/fast. It's a QoL feature in MMOs.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you for all your continued support, and we look forward to rolling out our new LFG system for dungeons and Battlegrounds.

As long as it's done... and in some weeks/months... and ZoS proves that it cares about ESO... good for you and also for us.
Like some users told you already ... this kind of stuff keeps players quittig the game... I also thought about playing some offline games like witcher or divinity for some days/weeks because IT ANNOYED ME SO MUCH. I don't want to meet up with 3 or more friends to play the queue minigame and destroy my f button. On friday or saturday evening it took us ~3 hours with one battleground queue attempt. BTW ... WE DID NOT GET IN... WE abandoned our foolish idea of having some pvp fun ingame. Every day, every weekend ... no matter if it is the "grp formed, awww bad for you ... press again game" or the "try again later.... queue is not available ...game"... YOU WILL LOSE some of your playerbase... that's a fact... !
Let me quote a blue hedgehog... better go fast? Invest some money.... ZoS isn't a small company ...
Your community plays ESO because the want some good quality stuff in form of a MMORPG. It's like driving a premium car brand instead of a dacia... you have expectations ... and those should be fulfilled.

So, enough wall of text.
EDIT: Thx for the infos/updates on this matter. It's good that you posted it. PLS KEEP IT UP!

everlastingodeb17_ESO

labambao wrote: »

Me & my entire guild left the game because of this and others issues.
You ZOS say that "we focus at new content and new players", but what the sense to focus at new content, when all the content just unplayable?
Like we want some good working project to play. I dont want to stay 40 min in q for bgs and play a 10 min then (btw if you are lead of group in queue for bgs you have a HUGE lag spikes every 10 sec, so you can't do nothing when you are in q)
And finally fix cyro lags. It's time to work.
But what you did - just make us unable to que at all. Thats great decision. You can also get back queue for entering game. That way you get alot of newcomers and money income doing literally nothing.
Have a good day.

That is the reason they delete threads complaining about them, because they want to get as much money from new players before they realise how crap the server is. I am not talking about the game, which is really good but not playable with servers like this.

everlastingodeb17_ESO

mateosalvaje wrote: »

Thank you for the update, and thank you for doing what you can. I imagine it can be rough being the messenger for these things sometimes, so thank you for sticking with us 🌷

Yes, it must be terrible to write something on a forum behind a monitor...uhhh terrible...

Demra

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In doing this, you may have noticed an increase in the amount of times you see the message that you’re unable to queue. However, this allows players who are actually in the queue to get into their activity faster and more successfully. When you see the message that you’re unable to queue, please just keep trying until you enter the queue. We understand this situation is far from ideal, but it does at least cycle people through the queue faster and with more reliability.

I don't understand how this solution is different from the original issue. Either i press ready endless amount of times or now i press que till it works. I could use an addon that would press ready for me but i cannot do the same with que. Or am i totally missing something here? I guess maybe those in the que line get so much faster into the dungeon that it won't take me many tries to join the que line?
Also, what if there are no tanks or healers currently qued while the line is full?

Elsonso

Lisutaris wrote: »

I would call that a hardware issue ... less players/load -> working ... primetime... not working.... And if it's not ... let me pray to Jone and Jode. For me it's the same with guild bank, grp invites, guild traders, ... during primetime it takes up to ~30seconds to get a server response.
If it's not and I am wrong... maybe more information about the cause and what the solution will be would be nice.

I put this one in the "bad software design" box, not the hardware box.

Basically, I assume from their description that there is a software design limitation on how the LFG works that does not scale up very well when the demand scales up. As more players enter the LFG queue, the bad design makes it increasingly hard for the LFG to work without error. At a certain demand, hopefully higher than what they are limiting it to, the LFG simply breaks, and what we see is the error that has become so familiar.

Mago

And since you are rewrite the code, please add a few more lines and add the Looking For Trial which is a much requested thing.
Thank you

FilteredRiddle

Instead of improving the servers because the current ones cannot handle the present needs, you've implemented a pseudo-queue (well, rather, the necessity to spam the LFG Join) in order to actually queue. I'm honestly in disbelief that this isn't a joke of some sort.

Elsonso

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Instead of improving the servers because the current ones cannot handle the present needs, you've implemented a pseudo-queue (well, rather, the necessity to spam the LFG Join) in order to actually queue. I'm honestly in disbelief that this isn't a joke of some sort.

My take on this is that the LFG software, not the server, can only handle a certain number of people in the queue. Metering entry to the queue is an effective way to handle this, one that has been proven in other places where similar limitations exist. Until they fix the software, which they admit they are doing but will take time, it is what it is.

GraphicArtistYT

Lol the LFG system was supposed to be fixed 2 years ago.

sionIV

This reminds me a bit of the communication we got about the Cyrodiil in-combat-bug.

"We hear you, but we can't fix it".

vgabor

It's a software design issue, if they implemented as a naive brute-force selection algorithm that'll be a power of 4th [ie: O(n*n*n*n)] algorithm (#), so the required computation resources increasing drastically as the number of the elements [n] in the queue grows...even if only 50 people queueing for each role, you are already in the 1-10 millions combination range... Scaling this with more hardware resources just not possible after a point, you need a much more efficient algorithm implemented...

(#: more generally this is a O(n**k) problem where k is the selection size from n elements, so with the 4 member dungeon teams the k will be 4)

randomkeyhits

vgabor wrote: »

It's a software design issue, if they implemented as a naive brute-force selection algorithm that'll be a power of 4th [ie: O(n*n*n*n)] algorithm (#), so the required computation resources increasing drastically as the number of the elements [n] in the queue grows...even if only 50 people queueing for each role, you are already in the 1-10 millions combination range... Scaling this with more hardware resources just not possible after a point, you need a much more efficient algorithm implemented...

(#: more generally this is a O(n**k) problem where k is the selection size from n elements, so with the 4 member dungeon teams the k will be 4)

Meh.....

The queue algorithm is actually incredibly lightweight, fast and simple.

3 doubly linked lists, one per role, add new queue members to the backend, take from the front end, run mostly as a fifo stack.

we have say N active group formations at any one time, allowing for the hardware running instances, say only 1000?

have a simple state machine to parse each group formation attempt and un-mark insertion attempts on declines and remove the linked list entries on success.

There is never any need to traverse the entire queue, only very very poor programmers would do that which doesn't give me any confidence about the coding for ESO if its claimed that the queue system is affected by server load.

I'm hoping that someone has been "economical" with the truth to Gina because what she had to relate to us did not sound professional in the least.

disintegr8

Imagine how bad it would work if it had to check you gear and skills to make sure you were queuing for the right role. That is what some people are asking for.

russelmmendoza

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We’ve been seeing your posts recently about issues with the LFG tool when queuing for dungeons and Battlegrounds, and we’d like to talk to you a bit about its current state and what our plans are moving forward.

Simply put, the LFG tool is not currently up to our standards and not working as you’d expect. We do want to note this isn’t a hardware issue, but is tied to server load; the more people that try to use it, the less stable it becomes, which is counterintuitive to how it should be functioning. This is causing the error messages you’ve been seeing that someone has declined the invite. While we know this has been an existing issue, it is certainly exacerbated by all the new and returning players we’ve seen with Elsweyr’s recent launch on PC.

Yesterday afternoon, we ran a command on the backend for PC that reduced the amount of people that can queue for a dungeon or Battleground. In doing this, you may have noticed an increase in the amount of times you see the message that you’re unable to queue. However, this allows players who are actually in the queue to get into their activity faster and more successfully. When you see the message that you’re unable to queue, please just keep trying until you enter the queue. We understand this situation is far from ideal, but it does at least cycle people through the queue faster and with more reliability.

We want to let you know are actively working on completely revamping the LFG tool to ensure it is more stable and easier to use. This requires a great deal of coding work and will take some time, but our goal is to publish it to everyone later this year. We’ll keep you updated on its progress.

Thank you for all your continued support, and we look forward to rolling out our new LFG system for dungeons and Battlegrounds.

Tyvm.

Lfg is quite frustrating, we appreciate your effort in trying to fix it.

I still wish you would give decliner, by their choosing or not, a 5 minute cooldown on queuing.

aresula

RMerlin wrote: »

So if I get this straight, the queue system requires a second queue to ensure that first queue doesn't get overloaded?

<scratches his head>

That's pretty much what I said on Reddit. This proves to me that nothing will be fixed. The queue will magically work only because people quit the game and there are less people trying to make groups. They'll take credit for this and the community will suffer from a huge population drop off.

FierceSam wrote: »

On a communication level, any communication is better than none. So thanks for updating us.

Communication is a two way street. They have yet to acknowledge anyone in this topic or the one on Reddit. Giving us one copy/pasted statement with vague solutions does nothing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the problem is a server load issue. For some strange reason the game is massively popular yet the devs refuse to accommodate the influx of players with better/more server hardware. This is a disastrous mistake that'll end up causing people to quit instead of staying here forever. No amount of genius scripting or magical coding is going to fix this when it's a hardware issue.

aresula

Know what you can actually do to reduce the load on the automatic queue?

1. Give us a proper manual LFG menu for premade groups to form with common goals in mind. Similar to how WoW has the LFG menu to form raids, arena groups, battleground groups, mythic+, world quests, world bosses, or any other little niche idea. In ESO this would be HUGE so I can finally do world bosses without wondering if I'm stuck on some empty shard with a dead zone chat where nobody is hearing my pleas for trying to start a group.

2. For the love of god give us dual specialization. Where we can assign a different set of morphs, attributes, CP, skillbar, and equipment slots with the press of a button. No longer being forced to walk to some out of the way shrine and pay ridiculous sums of gold just because I want to tank instead of DPSing. Know what shrinks your automatic queues? Having less DPS in them. I swear to you if all it took was me pressing a button and having my loadouts swapped at my leisure I'd be healing/tanking a whole heck of a lot more. I just hate doing solo content without being in a dps spec so naturally I gravitate towards the dps role.

3. Get rid of the readycheck. A lot of people opt into the automatic readycheck anyways. The sound that signifies your queue is ready is easy to miss because it's very quiet and the popup can be hidden and never seen depending on where you are in your menus. It serves no purpose but to just add another pointless step that the system has to deal with.

4. No more battleground purgatory. I was stuck waiting behind a wall of fire for a BG to start for over an hour because "there weren't enough players" and people kept growing impatient leaving faster than the queue could find replacements for them. How about just kick everyone out of the battleground if it hasn't started after 5 minutes so we can start with a fresh load in? Or re-arrange teams to be 2v2v2 or 3v3v3 or 3v3 or 4v4 if 4v4v4 is unavailable.

5. In fact get rid of the MMR entirely. The only thing matchmaking should worry about is matching full premades against other full premades. Solo or duo queuers should be left alone. When you got hundreds of players sitting in a 30+ minute queue when the queues should be instant that means more people are in your queue plugging it up making it harder for more people to get in. People that could potentially have been matched up with these players.

As a little side note to #5, if you want BG's to feel more "fair" then MMR isn't the way to do it. Like I said tackling the premades is the way to go. Maybe even experiment with having sub level 50 BG's using predetermined stat sheets for their classes and ignoring their gear setups so you don't ruin a new players impression by making them think they're worthless because they're matched up against a full premade of twinks.

Smellfire

I came back a few months ago after not playing for over 2 years. The group finder was fundamentally not fit for purpose when I left. It is still not fit for purpose now.

In that time you have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars making expansions and content, yet still fail to fix one of the core resources we use as players.

The benal commentary that comes from ZoS employees, about group finder, does little to assuage the disappointment of the playing masses. It is a long standing running joke in zone chat. Not a day goes by where you don't here 5 or 10, often more, comments about it. Guild chat is the same.

You could have easily assigned a couple of people to fix this problem years ago, but just roll out half arsed fixes that really don't work.

Reassign people to fix it. Make it a priority, but actually get off your collective arses and do something about it.

Delparis

I'm playing the game atm 5 am and still got this error message.

ESO current population should be at 10-20% of peak time.

what overloaded servers are you talking about ?

Gordon906

I can't find any dungeons even as a tank : / It says unable to find

Lauranae

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We’ve been seeing your posts recently about issues with the LFG tool when queuing for dungeons and Battlegrounds, and we’d like to talk to you a bit about its current state and what our plans are moving forward.

Simply put, the LFG tool is not currently up to our standards and not working as you’d expect. We do want to note this isn’t a hardware issue, but is tied to server load; the more people that try to use it, the less stable it becomes, which is counterintuitive to how it should be functioning. This is causing the error messages you’ve been seeing that someone has declined the invite. While we know this has been an existing issue, it is certainly exacerbated by all the new and returning players we’ve seen with Elsweyr’s recent launch on PC.

Yesterday afternoon, we ran a command on the backend for PC that reduced the amount of people that can queue for a dungeon or Battleground. In doing this, you may have noticed an increase in the amount of times you see the message that you’re unable to queue. However, this allows players who are actually in the queue to get into their activity faster and more successfully. When you see the message that you’re unable to queue, please just keep trying until you enter the queue. We understand this situation is far from ideal, but it does at least cycle people through the queue faster and with more reliability.

We want to let you know are actively working on completely revamping the LFG tool to ensure it is more stable and easier to use. This requires a great deal of coding work and will take some time, but our goal is to publish it to everyone later this year. We’ll keep you updated on its progress.

Thank you for all your continued support, and we look forward to rolling out our new LFG system for dungeons and Battlegrounds.

Well i read you, and i can be patient, but in all this i do not see any words about the imposed Penalty. You aknowledge there is a problem with the BG, but what will you do in the meantime for this penalty of 19/20min given to players when they have to abandon the BG because no viable groups have been completed and the game never start ?