Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.

Aireal

I have agreed with those that want to increase the difficulty on a point.. when the game isn't fun.. people don't want to play. Of course what "you" think of as fun "I" might not.. and vice versa.

My time is not infinite, Some days it's a choice between that hour of sleep and getting a daily done and setting up researching on my crafter.. and poping from one character to the next and adding riding attributes. This forum? Most of the time I am answering on my phone.. in a hurry at work on break or lunch. Or like this morning, where a possum decided to sit out on my back porch and all 4 dog's went nutty.... and that was the end of my sleep.

My point is, I don't have time to watch a bunch of vids and read guides to figure out builds and what DPS my Sorc should really be at.. how to max the whole thing.. I play. I ask questions of my friends on another forum.

A slight increase is going to be nothing but an annoyance for lower leveled characters.. and a chance to mash a button one or two more times for higher leveled players. Smarter AI? Well, of course, that would make it more difficult for lower leveled players... but it would have to be a massive increase in NPC tactics for it to work.

If you add 5 more npc attack/ defend instances.. how long to learn them? It doesn't take long. I added OBIS and ASIS ( with Grimoire) to Skyrim for exactly that reason... A mage bandit is still a mage, no matter if they are throwing frost or Blizzard... Blizzard is harder to get away from and has more of an effect of course. So knowing that it's a "Frost Mage".. My Nord 50% frost resist already, grab's 2 30% Frost resist items.. and is now err "Frost Proof".

Ah but.. change of AI and that Bandit now dual wields a staff of Blizzard and a FireStorm staff...makes it harder, but not impossible once you learn that AI's trick. And he/she calls for help, regardless of the 'aggro distance'...having a second NPC to deal with.

Same thing here.. the AI would have to constantly change to new tactic's with varying strengths to make it a challenge for higher leveled characters. Could lower leveled players still survive? yes.. yes they could as long as the game stays scaled. ( My Skyrim is not scaled.. It's possible and has happened.. to spawn an Elder Dragon and an Ancient dragon at level 1.. Dead is Dead character.. dead.. cause can't run fast enough!)

Now here's the problem.. all those mod's that I add to my Skyrim? They are player made.. IE Beth didn't put a dime into them. Zos is not going to add anything that does not return $$$ and plenty of it. Retention is a good thing.. to have Players buying each new installment, not just New players buying the Elswyer Collectors Ed that has everything.. plus some perks.

But Practically speaking... does it actually matter who's spending $40 to $60 a pop.. new or repeat?

Yes and No.. IF someone just wants 'harder' content, are they going to buy the next expansion if what the want isn't there.. well one of the posters here already said they haven't bought anything since Morrowind. If someone wants a new place to roleplay and explore and that is what a new expansion gives.. just by being a new expansion.. You have your answer..

Could both be accommodated? Yes, I am sure. The easiest way would be Zoned difficulty.. The Expansion starts out in Zone "A".. you can't get to Zone "B" until a certain amount of content is done, which would also increase your skill, knowledge and hopefully give you better gear. Zone "B" has harder NPC's ( people and creatures) with different skill sets and behaviors than Zone "A".. ETC through the expansion.

Or has that already been done.. and people hated it?

Personally, I have no problems with an OPTIONAL difficulty slider/ choice/ zoned instance...as long as i IS a choice and I can choose not to have them as well. None of it matters in the long run unless Zos thinks it is financially viable to do.

RavenSworn

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

Linaleah

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

except. not everyone plays at the same time. not everyone wants to keep helping players with their quests, quest that they already did more then once.. all the time. designing the game around reliance for veteran players to keep helping new players is not going to end well. doesn't end well. community is encouraged through repeatable content. like.. you know... dolmens, among other things. story quests? relying on someone to come and help you while you are trying to do a story quest is NUTS.

you may not see people asking for help for quests in guild now, in part becasue ZoS did their best to make those quests not require help. people still sometimes ask in general. but not as often. and that is GOOD. what you are asking is for is to make so many steps backwards, its not even funny. and the worst part? and i keep repeating myself, but apparently i have to keep repeating myself. THIS. will NOT. ADD. SUFFICIENT. CHALLENGE. for PLAYERS THAT ARE ASKING FOR MORE CHALLENGE.

there is a reason this game is more accessible than it was at launch.

srfrogg23

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

When the design philosophy that you're referring to was popular, the MMO industry was much smaller and far less competitive. For good reason. Only people without much in the way of real life obligations spent any real amount of time playing it. Those communities were tiny because of that. People got to know each other and reputations mattered. I'm assuming that is the type of MMO experience you're wanting to see again.

I have good news for you: that experience still exists! There are still games that offer that. They're tiny, though. Obscure. Outdated. Borderline dead. But, they're there. You just have to find them.

Of course, you won't want to play them, though. They never get updates anymore and they're not popular... probably a reason for that. Not that you'll ever admit it. Their failure is always caused by "something else", isn't it?

Aireal

RavenSworn wrote: »

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

>>>>>It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

As nice as that would be.. outside a guild, I sat at a Dolmen..only the final boss left for over an hour asking for help. I'm stubborn as Hades when I want to finish something. So I asked for help.. I waited, I tried again- died.. I asked for help, I waited, I tried again- died.. rinse repeat for about an hour and one other player came..took all of 3 minutes. The Final Boxx healed himself faster than my character could deal damage... the rest of the Dolmen had been a nice challenge.

Yeah I'm now part of a guild.. I am working on learning how to juggle Discord, and the game so that I can run with the crowd and go to the 'training' exercises they have. Of course, timing might be an issue, the last 'class' started at the same time I had to go to work.

That said.. I have gotten peoples attention and helped them.. with a couple quests, that just seems hard to start right.

Asking for help.. "Could someone look at the stat's on my character and their skills and give me a pointer in the direction to go?" ..."No no, I don't want a set of Epic gear to get through the quest I am on... I just want pointers in a good direction to go."

So yes, there ARE helpful people.. sometimes they offer the wrong kinda help, but their heart is in the right place. Now if I needed new gear ( and actually I did ask a friend to create some ) then that would be fine.. For the most part, I want to learn as much as I can on my own.. with an occasional elbow to the ribs.. "hey.. take a left".


EDIT: I prefer to play solo most of the time.. But I also like running with a friend or two ( haven't had a chance to run with the guild yet) BUT I tend to play at really odd hours sometimes.. waiting for a group of friends to be on? OH Heck NO.. I'd never get anywhere! Weekends? Um NO.. I worked Yesterday ( Sat) and I work today ( Sun).. my days off.. Tue's and Wed's this week.. might be Fri and Sat next week..

Drauz

The game's overland is very very easy atm and should be atleast brought up to normal difficulty.

Ydrisselle

Drauz wrote: »

The game's overland is very very easy atm and should be atleast brought up to normal difficulty.

And what is normal? The normal for you, the normal for Alcast or the normal for me? These are very, very different.

Wifeaggro13

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Drauz wrote: »

The game's overland is very very easy atm and should be atleast brought up to normal difficulty.

And what is normal? The normal for you, the normal for Alcast or the normal for me? These are very, very different.

they at least need tutorials for people like you explaining roles, how to build your character and what to do in group content.

Pr0Skygon

I can see a lot of people are confused between "make the game overland experience harder than what it is now" and "make the game overland experience become so hard that will scare away new players".

I have seen and talked with way too many players complain on how they only need 4 or 5 light attacks to finish off a human-ish mob, but it takes roughly 20 attacks from that mob to kill them.

I have made several new toons, and I can safely say that Elsweyr overland difficulty is one of the most brain dead easy experience I've ever seen in any game, not just mmorpg. It sucks all of the immersion factors out of me, knowing that I quite literally cannot die from a tiger, since my health regen much faster than the dps of the tiger.

BrooksP

Kamatsu wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves.

I'm honestly wanting to hear how you'd propose to maker the game harder for you, without the pointless use of hp/damage buffs, while not making it too hard for the majority of the casual player base.

---

This is the looming issue, and admittedly something I'm stuck on. Though since I'm looking at this from a optional standpoint balancing towards both casual and "hard-mode" players isn't on my mind. Also I'm trying to look at this from a "what can scale" mindset, and while AI improvements would be best, however the greater the AI complexity, the more resources it uses, so trying to limit that.

While yes damage/hp buffs would be used, but couldn't be the only solution.
-Increase NPC melee/spell mitigation as it can be gradually scaled as well as mitigated by investing in spell/melee penetration.
-Attack/spell speed increase on NPCs with a increased chance of criticals, or just an increase in crit chance.
-NPC attacks can drain either/both stamina or magika and reduce regen.
-Telegraphs are either removed or only have them displayed momentarily.
-NPC attack combo's, make the player pay for mistakes, though without insta-kills like other games.
-NPCs have greater regen and/or better resource management.

Not a definitive list, more so off the top of my head, but you asked.

Ixilith

problem is overworld has to cater to everyone and that’s where it becomes much more difficult to measure things such as difficulty up.

IMHO their solution would be to introduce lands for max level players, not scaled but set for level 50 160CPs which offer a higher level of difficulty.

Giving the new players something easier to progress through while learning and then offering difficult overland content to earn rewards from.

Just bring something out to give farming it a purpose really. Some skyshards, give it a few new skill line to work through, maybe offers more exp to farm CP in.

Game would offer content for both with these additions

Ydrisselle

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Drauz wrote: »

The game's overland is very very easy atm and should be atleast brought up to normal difficulty.

And what is normal? The normal for you, the normal for Alcast or the normal for me? These are very, very different.

they at least need tutorials for people like you explaining roles, how to build your character and what to do in group content.

I'm playing MMOs since 2005, I know the roles and understand the concepts, but in a new game I don't always have the necessary tools (or skills) yet - and I definitely don't have experience with the actual game's combat system.

Jcarson0408

Problem with buffing the overworld to the extent you are talking is how are people supposed to play in zones with only a few people? Even when you can find a group instead of reading quest dialogue or lore books you have to rush through to keep up with the group and then what would be the point of making lorebooks or paying those VAs to voice the quest dialogue?

Anti_Virus

Add battle spirit instance for overland that increases loot drops

Ydrisselle

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Add battle spirit instance for overland that increases loot drops

Why should it increase loot drops? I think it should decrease it. More challenge!

RavenSworn

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

When the design philosophy that you're referring to was popular, the MMO industry was much smaller and far less competitive. For good reason. Only people without much in the way of real life obligations spent any real amount of time playing it. Those communities were tiny because of that. People got to know each other and reputations mattered. I'm assuming that is the type of MMO experience you're wanting to see again.

I have good news for you: that experience still exists! There are still games that offer that. They're tiny, though. Obscure. Outdated. Borderline dead. But, they're there. You just have to find them.

Of course, you won't want to play them, though. They never get updates anymore and they're not popular... probably a reason for that. Not that you'll ever admit it. Their failure is always caused by "something else", isn't it?

That's over generalization. There are four different type of mmo players. Those who are casual with the time they have but hardcore with their approach to the game. There those who are hardcore with their time, but casual with their approach to the game. And of course those who are casual with time and approach, and those hardcore with their time and approach.

One of the main reason, why Wow, at least pre wotlk wow, were so successful is because they designed the game to suit an identity, a theme and not around the players that they have. They made the game accessible, but yet still hard enough to give an impact, or meaningful choices for the players. The player had to 'game' around the limitations that they had, not expecting the game to just give it to them.

That created communities and the wow community then, is still regarded as one of the best communities the gaming industry has. They helped shaped a generation of gaming buddies and couples and players.

I also have played tsw, wildstar, gw2, lotro. I am an old school mmo gamer I must admit. And yes those are the communities I adore because they not only want the best for the game, but the best for the players they are playing with.

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

except. not everyone plays at the same time. not everyone wants to keep helping players with their quests, quest that they already did more then once.. all the time. designing the game around reliance for veteran players to keep helping new players is not going to end well. doesn't end well. community is encouraged through repeatable content. like.. you know... dolmens, among other things. story quests? relying on someone to come and help you while you are trying to do a story quest is NUTS.

you may not see people asking for help for quests in guild now, in part becasue ZoS did their best to make those quests not require help. people still sometimes ask in general. but not as often. and that is GOOD. what you are asking is for is to make so many steps backwards, its not even funny. and the worst part? and i keep repeating myself, but apparently i have to keep repeating myself. THIS. will NOT. ADD. SUFFICIENT. CHALLENGE. for PLAYERS THAT ARE ASKING FOR MORE CHALLENGE.

there is a reason this game is more accessible than it was at launch.

Of course they wouldn't want to, it's not something that everyone wants to do. But it has to start somewhere and it's not gonna come from fellow questers since questing is too easy. Mobs are too easy.

I'm going to state right here that we definitely are going to agree to disagree. I might have a compromise that can work with your notion of easy questing and have veterans be able to help out as well.

RavenSworn wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

Since most major towns/cities are phased, separating or instancing the difficulty levels outside of hubs wouldn't cause much issue with perceived player base size. If anything it would be beneficial as players wouldn't be hindered by overcrowding or more skilled players steamrolling content before them, also it could allow players of similar skill level to naturally group up. 1T was a great idea, but poorly executed, as it threw any sort of curve or sense of progression out the window. Blanket buff would cause too much fuss and would be a band-aid fix for a looming problem. Optional and phased/instanced would allow for gradual increase and if done off of % per scale group, would negate power creep. Lastly with it being optional it allows for them to test/tweak the scaling without messing up the entire game.

Thanks for a different perspective. If there might be a good compromise between increasing general difficulty, phasing and etc, I would think that reducing player efficacy from the onset (at character creation page) would be a rather novel albeit weird idea. For eg:

Veteran = reducing player stats by 15/20%

It would of course just affect the player in overland, delves, public dungeons and solo instances. The player wouldn't need to take off cp, gear and such just for the sake of veteran levels. For those new players who want a bit of a challenge, this would be fantastic.

Wifeaggro13

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Drauz wrote: »

The game's overland is very very easy atm and should be atleast brought up to normal difficulty.

And what is normal? The normal for you, the normal for Alcast or the normal for me? These are very, very different.

they at least need tutorials for people like you explaining roles, how to build your character and what to do in group content.

I'm playing MMOs since 2005, I know the roles and understand the concepts, but in a new game I don't always have the necessary tools (or skills) yet - and I definitely don't have experience with the actual game's combat system.

i guess a middle of the road concept would be once you hit CP 160 the gme increases diffculty for solo play.if you still cannot handle a rudimentary increase (and i am not speaking to you directly but to a general player type) Perhaps MMO's are not for them.

srfrogg23

RavenSworn wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

When the design philosophy that you're referring to was popular, the MMO industry was much smaller and far less competitive. For good reason. Only people without much in the way of real life obligations spent any real amount of time playing it. Those communities were tiny because of that. People got to know each other and reputations mattered. I'm assuming that is the type of MMO experience you're wanting to see again.

I have good news for you: that experience still exists! There are still games that offer that. They're tiny, though. Obscure. Outdated. Borderline dead. But, they're there. You just have to find them.

Of course, you won't want to play them, though. They never get updates anymore and they're not popular... probably a reason for that. Not that you'll ever admit it. Their failure is always caused by "something else", isn't it?

That's over generalization. There are four different type of mmo players. Those who are casual with the time they have but hardcore with their approach to the game. There those who are hardcore with their time, but casual with their approach to the game. And of course those who are casual with time and approach, and those hardcore with their time and approach.

One of the main reason, why Wow, at least pre wotlk wow, were so successful is because they designed the game to suit an identity, a theme and not around the players that they have. They made the game accessible, but yet still hard enough to give an impact, or meaningful choices for the players. The player had to 'game' around the limitations that they had, not expecting the game to just give it to them.

That created communities and the wow community then, is still regarded as one of the best communities the gaming industry has. They helped shaped a generation of gaming buddies and couples and players.

I also have played tsw, wildstar, gw2, lotro. I am an old school mmo gamer I must admit. And yes those are the communities I adore because they not only want the best for the game, but the best for the players they are playing with.

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

except. not everyone plays at the same time. not everyone wants to keep helping players with their quests, quest that they already did more then once.. all the time. designing the game around reliance for veteran players to keep helping new players is not going to end well. doesn't end well. community is encouraged through repeatable content. like.. you know... dolmens, among other things. story quests? relying on someone to come and help you while you are trying to do a story quest is NUTS.

you may not see people asking for help for quests in guild now, in part becasue ZoS did their best to make those quests not require help. people still sometimes ask in general. but not as often. and that is GOOD. what you are asking is for is to make so many steps backwards, its not even funny. and the worst part? and i keep repeating myself, but apparently i have to keep repeating myself. THIS. will NOT. ADD. SUFFICIENT. CHALLENGE. for PLAYERS THAT ARE ASKING FOR MORE CHALLENGE.

there is a reason this game is more accessible than it was at launch.

Of course they wouldn't want to, it's not something that everyone wants to do. But it has to start somewhere and it's not gonna come from fellow questers since questing is too easy. Mobs are too easy.

I'm going to state right here that we definitely are going to agree to disagree. I might have a compromise that can work with your notion of easy questing and have veterans be able to help out as well.

RavenSworn wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

Since most major towns/cities are phased, separating or instancing the difficulty levels outside of hubs wouldn't cause much issue with perceived player base size. If anything it would be beneficial as players wouldn't be hindered by overcrowding or more skilled players steamrolling content before them, also it could allow players of similar skill level to naturally group up. 1T was a great idea, but poorly executed, as it threw any sort of curve or sense of progression out the window. Blanket buff would cause too much fuss and would be a band-aid fix for a looming problem. Optional and phased/instanced would allow for gradual increase and if done off of % per scale group, would negate power creep. Lastly with it being optional it allows for them to test/tweak the scaling without messing up the entire game.

Thanks for a different perspective. If there might be a good compromise between increasing general difficulty, phasing and etc, I would think that reducing player efficacy from the onset (at character creation page) would be a rather novel albeit weird idea. For eg:

Veteran = reducing player stats by 15/20%

It would of course just affect the player in overland, delves, public dungeons and solo instances. The player wouldn't need to take off cp, gear and such just for the sake of veteran levels. For those new players who want a bit of a challenge, this would be fantastic.

Um... no. What I said was not an over-generalized statement. You may be misremembering the early days of MMOs, but I am not. The sheer amount of time people had to spend advertising in zone chat, "lfg, need healer/tank" just to complete basic quests was absurd. Yes, people could "play casually", but it didn't mean they were progressing or staying interested in the game for very long. Incidentally, that's why a community of 1000 people was a "huge" population at the time.

I'm sorry, but the reality of the matter us that people who didn't have that much time to devote to the game just weren't playing. The whole "group up for everything" design demanded that level of devotion.

Besides, you neglected the important part of my post in pursuit of semantics.

Noblis01

I have said it once, and I will say it again : Don't wait for the devs to make the game "more difficult"
for you. Refund ALL of your CP and equip green gear. Then the game may be balanced.
If the devs add more HP to every mob and/or add greater resistances to every mob and/or introduce
a new NPC AI, the new and casual players will find another game. Then ESO closes. No more debate
over "this game is too easy."

Better yet, has anyone everdone HM Ruins of Mazzatun in all geen gear with only base game skills
(no caltrops, no horn, etc.?)

Myrm

RavenSworn wrote: »

...There are four different type of mmo players ... those who are casual with time and approach ...

That's me!

RavenSworn

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

When the design philosophy that you're referring to was popular, the MMO industry was much smaller and far less competitive. For good reason. Only people without much in the way of real life obligations spent any real amount of time playing it. Those communities were tiny because of that. People got to know each other and reputations mattered. I'm assuming that is the type of MMO experience you're wanting to see again.

I have good news for you: that experience still exists! There are still games that offer that. They're tiny, though. Obscure. Outdated. Borderline dead. But, they're there. You just have to find them.

Of course, you won't want to play them, though. They never get updates anymore and they're not popular... probably a reason for that. Not that you'll ever admit it. Their failure is always caused by "something else", isn't it?

That's over generalization. There are four different type of mmo players. Those who are casual with the time they have but hardcore with their approach to the game. There those who are hardcore with their time, but casual with their approach to the game. And of course those who are casual with time and approach, and those hardcore with their time and approach.

One of the main reason, why Wow, at least pre wotlk wow, were so successful is because they designed the game to suit an identity, a theme and not around the players that they have. They made the game accessible, but yet still hard enough to give an impact, or meaningful choices for the players. The player had to 'game' around the limitations that they had, not expecting the game to just give it to them.

That created communities and the wow community then, is still regarded as one of the best communities the gaming industry has. They helped shaped a generation of gaming buddies and couples and players.

I also have played tsw, wildstar, gw2, lotro. I am an old school mmo gamer I must admit. And yes those are the communities I adore because they not only want the best for the game, but the best for the players they are playing with.

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

except. not everyone plays at the same time. not everyone wants to keep helping players with their quests, quest that they already did more then once.. all the time. designing the game around reliance for veteran players to keep helping new players is not going to end well. doesn't end well. community is encouraged through repeatable content. like.. you know... dolmens, among other things. story quests? relying on someone to come and help you while you are trying to do a story quest is NUTS.

you may not see people asking for help for quests in guild now, in part becasue ZoS did their best to make those quests not require help. people still sometimes ask in general. but not as often. and that is GOOD. what you are asking is for is to make so many steps backwards, its not even funny. and the worst part? and i keep repeating myself, but apparently i have to keep repeating myself. THIS. will NOT. ADD. SUFFICIENT. CHALLENGE. for PLAYERS THAT ARE ASKING FOR MORE CHALLENGE.

there is a reason this game is more accessible than it was at launch.

Of course they wouldn't want to, it's not something that everyone wants to do. But it has to start somewhere and it's not gonna come from fellow questers since questing is too easy. Mobs are too easy.

I'm going to state right here that we definitely are going to agree to disagree. I might have a compromise that can work with your notion of easy questing and have veterans be able to help out as well.

RavenSworn wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

Since most major towns/cities are phased, separating or instancing the difficulty levels outside of hubs wouldn't cause much issue with perceived player base size. If anything it would be beneficial as players wouldn't be hindered by overcrowding or more skilled players steamrolling content before them, also it could allow players of similar skill level to naturally group up. 1T was a great idea, but poorly executed, as it threw any sort of curve or sense of progression out the window. Blanket buff would cause too much fuss and would be a band-aid fix for a looming problem. Optional and phased/instanced would allow for gradual increase and if done off of % per scale group, would negate power creep. Lastly with it being optional it allows for them to test/tweak the scaling without messing up the entire game.

Thanks for a different perspective. If there might be a good compromise between increasing general difficulty, phasing and etc, I would think that reducing player efficacy from the onset (at character creation page) would be a rather novel albeit weird idea. For eg:

Veteran = reducing player stats by 15/20%

It would of course just affect the player in overland, delves, public dungeons and solo instances. The player wouldn't need to take off cp, gear and such just for the sake of veteran levels. For those new players who want a bit of a challenge, this would be fantastic.

Um... no. What I said was not an over-generalized statement. You may be misremembering the early days of MMOs, but I am not. The sheer amount of time people had to spend advertising in zone chat, "lfg, need healer/tank" just to complete basic quests was absurd. Yes, people could "play casually", but it didn't mean they were progressing or staying interested in the game for very long. Incidentally, that's why a community of 1000 people was a "huge" population at the time.

Besides, you neglected the important part of my post in pursuit of semantics.

And yet I did not ask for a complete return of the 'good ol days'. My reasoning has always been "Promoting group play but not to the extent of not being able to solo". Yes I do not know what might be a middle ground for different players but at its current state, just a slight increase in difficulty would help. Think about it, there is already in the game a way to 'duo' officially via the rings of mara.

A two man team, doing quests would absolutely steamroll overland content without a shadow of a doubt. So it pays to have slightly tuned for two man since that will invariably promote group play. But like I said previously, a good compromise would be to enable a 'Veteran' mode which will effectively reduce player stats by 10-15% (or even more) so as to accommodate those who want a harder overland content. This toggle would just affect the player in overland zones and not in dungeons, pvp, bgs and trials.

Agenericname

BrooksP wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves.

I'm honestly wanting to hear how you'd propose to maker the game harder for you, without the pointless use of hp/damage buffs, while not making it too hard for the majority of the casual player base.

---

This is the looming issue, and admittedly something I'm stuck on. Though since I'm looking at this from a optional standpoint balancing towards both casual and "hard-mode" players isn't on my mind. Also I'm trying to look at this from a "what can scale" mindset, and while AI improvements would be best, however the greater the AI complexity, the more resources it uses, so trying to limit that.

While yes damage/hp buffs would be used, but couldn't be the only solution.
-Increase NPC melee/spell mitigation as it can be gradually scaled as well as mitigated by investing in spell/melee penetration.
-Attack/spell speed increase on NPCs with a increased chance of criticals, or just an increase in crit chance.
-NPC attacks can drain either/both stamina or magika and reduce regen.
-Telegraphs are either removed or only have them displayed momentarily.
-NPC attack combo's, make the player pay for mistakes, though without insta-kills like other games.
-NPCs have greater regen and/or better resource management.

Not a definitive list, more so off the top of my head, but you asked.

I would be against the removal of telegraphs, even in an optional setting.

I spend the majority of my group PvE time in vet dungeons, including the DLCs. Usually when you see someone struggling part of the issue is, they're likely new(ish) to the content and come from easier content where the cost of ignoring a telegraphed attacks either isn't very high or isn't consequential at all. Removing them altogether removes the learning mechanism.

The mechanism is there, but it isn't reinforced well in my opinion. If they're going to do something like this, I feel like they should go in a direction that helps players improve by reinforcing certain mechanics if-you-will without making it overly difficult.

I believe that an optional setting is possible. We already have multiple instances of overland. We are already separated to some extent. Make one harder and make it optional, but do it for the right reasons. Players that have completed vMA, or the other 2 arenas, vet DLCs, trials, etc, aren't likely going to find challenge in overland regardless of what ZoS changes, if anything. Many already operate in an environment where a single mistake can kill you. Use is as a learning tool for lower to mid tier players. And if others do not want to use it, stay in normal.

Jhalin

Noblis01 wrote: »

I have said it once, and I will say it again : Don't wait for the devs to make the game "more difficult"
for you. Refund ALL of your CP and equip green gear. Then the game may be balanced.
If the devs add more HP to every mob and/or add greater resistances to every mob and/or introduce
a new NPC AI, the new and casual players will find another game. Then ESO closes. No more debate
over "this game is too easy."

Better yet, has anyone everdone HM Ruins of Mazzatun in all geen gear with only base game skills
(no caltrops, no horn, etc.?)

“The sky will implode if the game dares to challenge a player to get better as they play!!”

No, the game would be fine. Why is it people have such little belief in players these days?

We can’t have a chance for failure! All our players are big pssbabies who’ll quit because their naked, weaponless char can’t kill the super powerful mage! (/s)

It’s ridiculous. And stop bringing up dungeons holy crap, this thread is about overland questing. It IS too damn easy. Taking away CP doesn’t change that. Taking away trial gear doesn’t change that. Using mismatched attribute-weapon combos doesn’t change that. Overland still has zero threat.

If I afk for a full minute in a normal mob spawn area, I probably come back to maybe half my char’s health missing, and something dead just because my monster helm proc’d on it. This shouldn’t be possible on the most basic level.

The game refuses to punish players for stupid actions. If anyone pulls a group of 20+ mobs, and they’re underleveled, undergeared, or poorly skilled, they should have a high chance of dying to those mobs. The big quest bosses built up through an entire zone should take more than a few smacks to die.

They should have more resistances, more hp, and anything telegraphed should have its damage damn near doubled so players are at the very least required to obey those simple mechanics of the game. No one but a tank should be able to eat multiple telegraphed attacks and come out missing hardly any health, but right now most chars can.

It was pathetic fighting Cadwell in Elsweyr, absolutely disappointing. I stood there tanking anything but the heavies, LA every so often and having to turn away so my monster set didn’t take half his health in one go. I didn’t feel like a hero battling it out with the greatest warrior of that era, I felt like a kid hurting a small animal.

There was no satisfaction to any of the buildup, there was never even threat to overcome. I just show up, incidentally kill him with a few wayward sword smacks, and leave with nothing but disappointment.

srfrogg23

RavenSworn wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

When the design philosophy that you're referring to was popular, the MMO industry was much smaller and far less competitive. For good reason. Only people without much in the way of real life obligations spent any real amount of time playing it. Those communities were tiny because of that. People got to know each other and reputations mattered. I'm assuming that is the type of MMO experience you're wanting to see again.

I have good news for you: that experience still exists! There are still games that offer that. They're tiny, though. Obscure. Outdated. Borderline dead. But, they're there. You just have to find them.

Of course, you won't want to play them, though. They never get updates anymore and they're not popular... probably a reason for that. Not that you'll ever admit it. Their failure is always caused by "something else", isn't it?

That's over generalization. There are four different type of mmo players. Those who are casual with the time they have but hardcore with their approach to the game. There those who are hardcore with their time, but casual with their approach to the game. And of course those who are casual with time and approach, and those hardcore with their time and approach.

One of the main reason, why Wow, at least pre wotlk wow, were so successful is because they designed the game to suit an identity, a theme and not around the players that they have. They made the game accessible, but yet still hard enough to give an impact, or meaningful choices for the players. The player had to 'game' around the limitations that they had, not expecting the game to just give it to them.

That created communities and the wow community then, is still regarded as one of the best communities the gaming industry has. They helped shaped a generation of gaming buddies and couples and players.

I also have played tsw, wildstar, gw2, lotro. I am an old school mmo gamer I must admit. And yes those are the communities I adore because they not only want the best for the game, but the best for the players they are playing with.

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

and excludes newer or experimenting players. no. thank .you. literally 10 - 15% increase will NOT actualy make it more challenging for players that are bored now. it will not. they won't even feel it. but players who are still starting out, or may not be so good to begin with? its NOT going to encourage them to git good. players are simply going to leave for a game that's more welcoming.

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player, one that looks at their gear, at their build, at their game play, show them the ropes, show them guild activities that they can partake.

It has never been about just the game mechanics or systems that make or break the game. It's always has been about the community. "Guys, I'm having trouble with this Phaer Amuur dude, anyone can help out?" "Sure thing, let me finish up this dolmen and I'm gtg."

"dude, you're soloing a dolmen? How's that possible?! What's your build like?" "lol just some simple stuff, let me show you what I did with my gear and build" etc, etc.

This is anecdotal of course, but I've never had anyone, currently, asking for help in my guild, a small sample as it is, for questing. It's always about going to a location, or dungeon run, or perhaps WB dailies. I do have however, guildies that inquire if overland have elite mobs, or an elite zone they can have a bit of fun grinding questing.

except. not everyone plays at the same time. not everyone wants to keep helping players with their quests, quest that they already did more then once.. all the time. designing the game around reliance for veteran players to keep helping new players is not going to end well. doesn't end well. community is encouraged through repeatable content. like.. you know... dolmens, among other things. story quests? relying on someone to come and help you while you are trying to do a story quest is NUTS.

you may not see people asking for help for quests in guild now, in part becasue ZoS did their best to make those quests not require help. people still sometimes ask in general. but not as often. and that is GOOD. what you are asking is for is to make so many steps backwards, its not even funny. and the worst part? and i keep repeating myself, but apparently i have to keep repeating myself. THIS. will NOT. ADD. SUFFICIENT. CHALLENGE. for PLAYERS THAT ARE ASKING FOR MORE CHALLENGE.

there is a reason this game is more accessible than it was at launch.

Of course they wouldn't want to, it's not something that everyone wants to do. But it has to start somewhere and it's not gonna come from fellow questers since questing is too easy. Mobs are too easy.

I'm going to state right here that we definitely are going to agree to disagree. I might have a compromise that can work with your notion of easy questing and have veterans be able to help out as well.

RavenSworn wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

And yet there are already solo instances for the main quests and guild quests. I understand both groups, because I do want to solo at times as well. But it is a MMOrpg, not just an rpg, regardless of how people want it to be as.

Nowhere in my post did I say required grouping. Promoting grouping? Sure. But solo-able as well. Solo builds are available. Dungeon builds are a plenty. Hell, so many players work on their builds on their own everytime. Since gear is so prevalent and scaled to level, it's so much easier to have a good build with the right gear with all the resources we have.

Artificially reducing our capabilities does not make the game harder, it just trivializes the current difficulties.

Nor did i she is putting she only hears what she wants. this game simply is not fun in its current state and i refuse to put anymore money into it at this point. the developers are clearly just pumping out copy and paste content and charging full clip.

not fun,. for YOU.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths other then my own, you on the other hand are bound and determined to misinterpret or just not listen at all.

I'm very specifically against increasing difficulty for one time questing and overworld wholesale. becasue baseline needs to be soloable BY EVERYONE. not just you. EVERYONE. by people who don't have the build yet, because they are STILL. LEVELING. SKILL. LINES. people who don't have morphs yet, passives yet, becasue their characters haven't progressed that far. people with NO CP. people who are trying to figure out builds on their own instead of immediately going for the guides, killing any and all discovery. people who are actualy genuinely trying to play FOR FUN.

there is group content in this game. world bosses are group content. dungeons and raids are group content. for many people - public dungeons are group content. dragons in Elsweyr are group content. summerset's abyssal rifts while can be soloed, are actualy better to do in a group since as they scale to a group, you end up getting a named boss instead of a random mook AND better rewards as a result. but notice something. ALL of that content? is repeatable. which means even as it gets older, there is STILL a good chance you'll find a group for it. and that is as it should be.


optional difficulty increase? fine. whatever. I don't know how they could possibly manage to balance something to satisfy all the different ideas of what challenging is. but OPTIONAL. I was replying to a post that wanted to increase difficulty, PERIOD. for the current world. not optional increase. GENERAL increase. please for the love of god, DO read the post I was replying to.

Thats the thing, it will not only separate the harder and easier difficulties so to speak, it will separate the general population. Remember phasing? How it used to whack out questing? There's not much ZoS can do to give optional difficulties with the exception of phasing / instanced overland. Which will end up making new players question where are the population? I thought this game had opened up with 1T? Thats why I proposed a general increase of just 10-15% because we don't want dark souls overland, just hard enough that it makes it significantly easier to group but still solo able enough that all it requires is just updated gear and knowledge of mechanics.

Since most major towns/cities are phased, separating or instancing the difficulty levels outside of hubs wouldn't cause much issue with perceived player base size. If anything it would be beneficial as players wouldn't be hindered by overcrowding or more skilled players steamrolling content before them, also it could allow players of similar skill level to naturally group up. 1T was a great idea, but poorly executed, as it threw any sort of curve or sense of progression out the window. Blanket buff would cause too much fuss and would be a band-aid fix for a looming problem. Optional and phased/instanced would allow for gradual increase and if done off of % per scale group, would negate power creep. Lastly with it being optional it allows for them to test/tweak the scaling without messing up the entire game.

Thanks for a different perspective. If there might be a good compromise between increasing general difficulty, phasing and etc, I would think that reducing player efficacy from the onset (at character creation page) would be a rather novel albeit weird idea. For eg:

Veteran = reducing player stats by 15/20%

It would of course just affect the player in overland, delves, public dungeons and solo instances. The player wouldn't need to take off cp, gear and such just for the sake of veteran levels. For those new players who want a bit of a challenge, this would be fantastic.

Um... no. What I said was not an over-generalized statement. You may be misremembering the early days of MMOs, but I am not. The sheer amount of time people had to spend advertising in zone chat, "lfg, need healer/tank" just to complete basic quests was absurd. Yes, people could "play casually", but it didn't mean they were progressing or staying interested in the game for very long. Incidentally, that's why a community of 1000 people was a "huge" population at the time.

Besides, you neglected the important part of my post in pursuit of semantics.

And yet I did not ask for a complete return of the 'good ol days'. My reasoning has always been "Promoting group play but not to the extent of not being able to solo". Yes I do not know what might be a middle ground for different players but at its current state, just a slight increase in difficulty would help. Think about it, there is already in the game a way to 'duo' officially via the rings of mara.

A two man team, doing quests would absolutely steamroll overland content without a shadow of a doubt. So it pays to have slightly tuned for two man since that will invariably promote group play. But like I said previously, a good compromise would be to enable a 'Veteran' mode which will effectively reduce player stats by 10-15% (or even more) so as to accommodate those who want a harder overland content. This toggle would just affect the player in overland zones and not in dungeons, pvp, bgs and trials.

Nobody will use a "veteran mode". So it's a waste of time to try to include it. The devs would either have to create a new tier of rewards, throwing off that aspect of progression, or make it an unrewarded personal goal system that will result in copious amounts of whining elitism: "I'm better than those noobs but they're playing through the content just fine while I keep dying in vet mode!"

The overland content already has content intended to promote ad hoc group play in the form of world bosses.

In short, it would be pointless and redundant. Ultimately a waste of their time and the money I pay them for my sub fee each month. I'd rather see that money spent on creating new content. Not being wasted on e-peen verification mode.

Ragnork

RavenSworn wrote: »

And that's where we, as the community comes in. Where we encourage them, group up with them, where we as veterans show what it means to be a good player,

I wish there were more like you and less of what I saw today in Summerset.

A "new" player was looking for help with a world boss. Asked in zone chat for help.
No-one replied.
I went to join the level 9 player and then they put out another shout for help. The response?
"Stop spamming"
"Just block him"
"Newb"
"Blocked him now"

I play an MMORPG because I enjoy the RPG and am more than happy to join in the MMO.

But back to the topic.
I have two accounts;
Account 1 CP 900+ - overland is very easy.
Account 2 just hit CPs. - my newer characters die, a lot, in simple encounters (cave bosses can be a challenge). I know the mechanics, I know how to play the game. I just do not have enough sustain and am using / wearing mostly white armour and weapons. I do not have access yet to the best mundus stones or foods.

Maybe a balance between the pre-1 tam zone progression and post 1 tam everything is the same.
So you have an open world go anywhere, but if you are under level for a zone the mudcrabs will eat you.
(I remember creeping around riften as a level 10 trying to avoid everything as one hard stare would be enough to kill)

Morgha_Kul

I'll point out that you CAN remove telegraphs. In fact, I don't use them at all, and it does add a layer of challenge to the game. You actually have to watch the enemy's movements to know when they're going to do something that might hurt.

I started doing it as a RP/immersion thing, but I'm actually glad I did from a gameplay perspective too, just because the game is already plenty easy. That said, it was MY CHOICE to do this. That I enjoy the game more this way doesn't mean everyone will, or should.

Sadetius

@srfrogg23

So many assumptions made, and generalizations.

Again lets not forget that hard fun, which involves challenge and difficulty, is one of the four core pillars of fun (Lazzaro 2004).

Furthermore as quoted from game design literature : "Challenge is at the core of almost all gameplay. You could even say that a game is defined by its goals and its challenges." (Schell 2008)

Look at all other mmo forums, and you will always see the hard fun player group asking for some kind options for difficulty. There is a group that has been starving for a challenging mmo, and those players are desperately waiting for something.

And no, I don't need better rewards, I would actually say lower the drop rates to make items have more value. Dungeons have different reward tiers, so why would that suddenly be a problem? I personally would not care either way. And Easy fun players could always group up and do some content in Veteran overland for some extra rewards as well if they wanted to.

I don't play for the rewards, I want a veteran overworld option because I want to go on an adventure with friends. I don't want quests to be a running simulator.
I want to tell cool stories, how I and my friend got ambushed by bandits and just barely survived. How we sneaked by the spiders in the cave knowing that alerting them, would spell our death. And how we finally had an epic battle with a giant bear that we just survived with almost no health left, but our reward was an awesome weapon or armor. That is what I want to experience.

And sure other players might not like that kind of gameplay, and just want to unwind after a long day, feel like a hero smack some monsters around. I personally don't see the fun in that, but hey different strokes different folks. I respect that preference in gameplay. I like to come to a solution where both hard fun and easy fun players can both enjoy the game.

The developers already stated that they think that some form of difficulty options are a great idea. Instead of having a nice brainstorming session and healthy discussion to find a solution to this problem, as enthusiasts of the Elder Scrolls universe. Nope, just shove it aside and start flinging with terms like: "whining elitism" and "e-peen verification mode.", just wauw.....what great inclusive community.

barney2525

Linaleah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Khumbu wrote: »

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Why is everyone thinking in terms of absolutes? There is a middle ground. Again, the current iteration of the game doesn't allow for middle ground, which is why it would benefit everyone in the long run if we could increase overland difficulty slightly. Not till it becomes eq1 difficulty. But at the very least promoting group play, especially for quest bosses and delves. Right now, you dont even need the cake to eat it. You're full just looking at it.

no. nononononononoono

NO required grouping, ESPECIALLY not for quests. we already have "encouraged" (as in required for most people) grouping for some of the dailies. but they are dailies. so there is at least some demand for doing them again and again, so groups are more possible. one time quests should never, EVER require or even encourage grouping.

moreover. that middle ground you talk of? its different for different people depending on their skill level, and in this game? skill gap is enormous, so absolute NO to buff to overworld. optional higher difficulty zones? sure. but current overworld needs to stay EXACTLY where it is.

Completely agree

Getting from point A to point B just so you can continue on a quest should NOT REQUIRE a group.

Kamatsu

Jhalin wrote: »

“The sky will implode if the game dares to challenge a player to get better as they play!!”

No, the game would be fine. Why is it people have such little belief in players these days?

We can’t have a chance for failure! All our players are big pssbabies who’ll quit because their naked, weaponless char can’t kill the super powerful mage! (/s)

Because that IS the reality of today's gamers? They *WILL* quit a game if the game gets too hard for them, or suddenly changes from an easy game they can solo to something that close-to requires grouping (for them).

Most players of online games don't have the inclination to try and learn/relearn games, strats, plan out builds, improve their gameplay, etc ... they will grab a build guide and play to that, and if it doesn't work or they can't just spam the 1st skill they get to succeed... they will *quit* the game and go elsewhere.

I'll bring it up again - ANet with GW2's HoT expansion tried the whole 'Offer a challenge" thing, and "grouping is encouraged" thing.. you could still solo it, but it was a lot harder and the mob placement, skill use, etc encouraged travel with other players. They listened to people who said there were huge # of players craving harder gameplay, gameplay that punished players for more challenge, that players would step-up and learn and git gud and do better...

They suffered the biggest 6-month loss in revenue that they had EVER suffered in both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. The forums filled up with complaint after complaint from players about how the expansion was too hard, that it was too challenging, couldn't be solo'ed (it could be, but was harder and required re-doing strats, builds, etc)... and within weeks of the launch the forums were filled with threads complaining that the maps were dead, that there was nobody playing the expansion, that even the base game felt dead and deserted.

ANet tried the 'players are smart and will git gud' thing. They had a 67% loss of revenue over 6-months and a huge loss of players.

Other MMO's have tried the hard thing...

Wildstar - dead

Neverwinter - they recently tried making their newer content harder, requiring players 'git gud' and look at changing builds/strats, more focus on possibly grouping up, etc... they suffered player loss and revenue loss as well. They ended up having to nerf the content to try and stop the player loss.

WoW - Cataclysm's dungeons were harder the prior. Guess what? Massive complains about this and players left. They did nerf the dungeons to be 'easier'

This is just something people have to realize and accept - players as a whole will not get better or more skillfull, will not change and/or adjust builds if the game gets tougher as they play... they will keep playing their way till it gets too hard and/or unenjoyable for them, and then quit and leave the game for other games that they can breeze through without thought.

---

A thought for those wanting challenge in openworld - why not start small, and instead of pushing ZOS for a harder openworld (as that is a huge endeavor that will cost a lot of $$$ to do)... you instead push for an optional 'instanced' difficulty.

So push for an optional difficulty that will only effect content that gets instanced... and thus can have 2 completely separate instances... one for the normal players and another for the 'harder content' playes - such as Delves & public dungeons.

Why? Because it would likely take less $$$ for ZOS to edit Delves/PD's mobs for more hp, damage, the skillset used, etc, which means ZOS would be more likely to actually do this. It would also be a way for you to show ZOS just how many people are craving harder fights - if there is as many people as you all feel that there is... then the #'s ZOS see's would support this.

And this way you could show that there is a good business case for ZOS to work on trying to provide you with an optional harder overland, but separated from other players so they do not cut into their casual players either.

Sylvermynx

Kamatsu wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

“The sky will implode if the game dares to challenge a player to get better as they play!!”

No, the game would be fine. Why is it people have such little belief in players these days?

We can’t have a chance for failure! All our players are big pssbabies who’ll quit because their naked, weaponless char can’t kill the super powerful mage! (/s)

Because that IS the reality of today's gamers? They *WILL* quit a game if the game gets too hard for them, or suddenly changes from an easy game they can solo to something that close-to requires grouping (for them).

Most players of online games don't have the inclination to try and learn/relearn games, strats, plan out builds, improve their gameplay, etc ... they will grab a build guide and play to that, and if it doesn't work or they can't just spam the 1st skill they get to succeed... they will *quit* the game and go elsewhere.

I'll bring it up again - ANet with GW2's HoT expansion tried the whole 'Offer a challenge" thing, and "grouping is encouraged" thing.. you could still solo it, but it was a lot harder and the mob placement, skill use, etc encouraged travel with other players. They listened to people who said there were huge # of players craving harder gameplay, gameplay that punished players for more challenge, that players would step-up and learn and git gud and do better...

They suffered the biggest 6-month loss in revenue that they had EVER suffered in both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. The forums filled up with complaint after complaint from players about how the expansion was too hard, that it was too challenging, couldn't be solo'ed (it could be, but was harder and required re-doing strats, builds, etc)... and within weeks of the launch the forums were filled with threads complaining that the maps were dead, that there was nobody playing the expansion, that even the base game felt dead and deserted.

ANet tried the 'players are smart and will git gud' thing. They had a 67% loss of revenue over 6-months and a huge loss of players.

Other MMO's have tried the hard thing...

Wildstar - dead

Neverwinter - they recently tried making their newer content harder, requiring players 'git gud' and look at changing builds/strats, more focus on possibly grouping up, etc... they suffered player loss and revenue loss as well. They ended up having to nerf the content to try and stop the player loss.

WoW - Cataclysm's dungeons were harder the prior. Guess what? Massive complains about this and players left. They did nerf the dungeons to be 'easier'

This is just something people have to realize and accept - players as a whole will not get better or more skillfull, will not change and/or adjust builds if the game gets tougher as they play... they will keep playing their way till it gets too hard and/or unenjoyable for them, and then quit and leave the game for other games that they can breeze through without thought.

---

A thought for those wanting challenge in openworld - why not start small, and instead of pushing ZOS for a harder openworld (as that is a huge endeavor that will cost a lot of $$$ to do)... you instead push for an optional 'instanced' difficulty.

So push for an optional difficulty that will only effect content that gets instanced... and thus can have 2 completely separate instances... one for the normal players and another for the 'harder content' playes - such as Delves & public dungeons.

Why? Because it would likely take less $$$ for ZOS to edit Delves/PD's mobs for more hp, damage, the skillset used, etc, which means ZOS would be more likely to actually do this. It would also be a way for you to show ZOS just how many people are craving harder fights - if there is as many people as you all feel that there is... then the #'s ZOS see's would support this.

And this way you could show that there is a good business case for ZOS to work on trying to provide you with an optional harder overland, but separated from other players so they do not cut into their casual players either.

@Kamatsu - that's a very good summation. It probably does fit many players these days. People are looking for easy fun to take away the stress of everyday life. They have enough interaction that's unsatisfactory IRL that they really don't want to interact in a game. I can understand that. I'm.... not social at all. I'm a hermit. Interacting with people I don't know in a game is very stressful for me. Add to that 700+ ms ping.... so most people are going to be nasty if I group.... because I can't do what needs doing....

I can group with a couple of people I know IRL, because they KNOW my only connect is satellite. And they aren't dinging me for it, they're patient, and we can work through things. The only way I got through group content in WoW and RIFT was due to having family and friends who played, and we were all in my guilds. It's.... VERY hard to be the "gimped" player in an online game - the one who can't do what needs to be done for whatever reason (in my case, only connect available is satellite). One of my girls almost died today to three Iron Orcs because lag didn't show her they were there until WAY too late - and the only reason she didn't die was that someone else happened along. Mega ping can be a literal killer....

And even with "real broadband" I might not be willing to "go hard or go home". I'm old; my reflexes aren't real great any more (not like back when I played WoW for instance). I just want to play a game for fun.... and I've worn out Skyrim even with LotD. ESO IS fun.... but making overland a lot more difficult will mean I won't have as much fun, and won't pay two subs (soon to be three) and won't buy stuff from the store.... Yep. I have to say.... I'm a whale. I can afford to buy what I want....