Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.

srfrogg23

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Now, compound that with the slower speed of non-dps builds, like tanking and healing builds. Talk about a slog...

Can we please stop pretending that these hypothetical players are tanks and healer. Well maybe they are people with heals on their bars. But tanks know what dodge roll, blocking and interrupting is. Tanks have no issues with overland content because they can be hurt even less than dps specced players. Tanks actually take the time to learn the game because in order to be a tank, you need to have an understanding of the content that goes beyond what the normal player needs to know so you can tank what hurts the most, and control the fight for your team.

There is no real tank in this game that think overland content is difficult. There is no actual tanks that don't understand how this game works that they have any issues killing overland mobs fast. These hypothetical tanks are not being held back. They do NOT need paper-thin enemies for them to effectively make it through content without slogging it.

You can't just throw heals and health on your character and call them a tank or healer. And most people serious about those roles are serious about knowing the game. Also, healers can dps superbly since the same magicka gear they are using to heal, is giving more than enough stats for their dps abilities to hit hard. And they have even smaller chance of dying than derp dps specs.

I don't have to pretend. This isn't just about whether or not people are dying in the content. It's about how quickly they kill things. Pacing, pacing, pacing.

People use a variety of builds for different roles and come with all levels of familiarity and skill. The open world content is made to accommodate for the widest range of players possible. And, while you may believe it's "too easy", not everyone feels that way.

Things get real redundant real fast when fights take too long. People lose interest when that happens. There's a reason why end game raiders are usually, if not always, the smallest subset of an MMO playerbase.

WoW classic is just around the corner, though. If you don't believe me, go try that out for a bit and see for yourself.

no one was talking about making the game hard for end game raiders. what gets redundant is 5 years into the game they release a new class and slog through insignifcant non rewarding content. truthfuly a little challenge in something that is already tedious by design is not such a bad thing. i dont hink half the people would mind so much if there was a slight bit vertical progression involved . And im not talking about adding more CP to that broken mess of an alternate advancement system they call CP. And dont say ZOs says they are looking into it. they have been looking into spell crafting for near for years. ZOS track record is not stellar with their game systems new,old or half finished unimplemented ideas.

You might want to have a chit-chat with all the people who post these kinds of threads so yall can get your stories straight.

I honestly don't think you all have a defined request. A nebulous demand like "make it harder, but not too much" isn't exactly actionable. "Make it less boring" doesn't provide much direction either.

Your definition of "just the right amount of challenge" probably differs drastically from mine or anyone else's.

Besides that, as I said before, the current balance is based on ensuring the widest number of character builds and player skill levels will be able to progress through the content at a reasonable pace.

That's just the nature of leveling content. You will outgrow it eventually. Especially after 5 years. That being said, you figure out what you actually want and define it in a way that ensures everyone understands exactly what you have in mind, then you might see less opposition to your ideas.

Until, then, do try to keep in mind that just because you claim that "no one is asking for that", it doesn't make it true.

the option is to have actual progression in the game. right now in all the chapter releases you have nothing but here as a half ass story with some landscape with speed bumps everywhere.

I felt that there was plenty of progress. I quite enjoyed it.

Aireal

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Leocaran wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Besides that, as I said before, the current balance is based on ensuring the widest number of character builds and player skill levels will be able to progress through the content at a reasonable pace.

But there's no balance at all. Literally. 'Balance' means there's some challenge for an average player (in progressing through content, of course, i.e. questing, not soloing WB and vet dungeons). There's none. And 'the widest number of character builds and player skill levels' actually means 'all of them'. (No, 2s ping and disabilities don't count. Sorry, but they also must not count.)

Says who? No challenge for whom?

I may not be skilled in ESO , but I am darn good with other games I play.. including Dark Souls and Dark Souls II..all the Witcher games..Skyrim on Legendary ..etc.. once I learned those games they were not as difficult as everyone seems to think they are.

Skill and knowledge of a game go well to making them seem like they lack challenge. Stripping a high lvl character does nothing, starting a new character only slight challenge... but put 10 people to playing that never have before and are how many would think WB and Trials are no challenge...a truly average player would find some...some of the OW a challenge.

Just because you dont, doesn't mean others don't.

there is challenge in trials and four man dungeons. the issue becomes when the leveling experience did nothing to teach you how to play a role, build a character , and work as a group. then you have a massive skill gap when players hit the end game. they meet those who have played the game long term and scream they are elietists. they are not .most of them are just tired of teaching a rotating population how to play their character. you should know how to do that already and the only thing they teach you is the mechanics. im a filthy casual , i hardly ever do Trials most of time was spent in 4 mans. its just bad game design. we should not have huge swathes of people leaving when the story is done its called retention

I agree... ahh with most of that.

Making the OW more difficult in a general way, would not help to teach new players how to build and play with others. Not unless the game was so hard that they had to play in a group.

4 months later and not one of my characters is over 50.. but how many vids are on U-tube teaching ppl to level super fast? That is where a lot of the issue is with newbies. They don't DO the OW quest's and content slow enough to learn on their own. They are following a guide, but instead of using it as a 'guide' it is their bible of leveling.

And I will admit, I have a 'build' I found on-line for a Mag/Plar - healing.. and If I followed it, I'm sure I'll have a great PvP character.. But I also won't know until I have him at a high enough lvl I think he'll survive.

One PvE and one PvP character...`Quite frankly as ling as they are good enough to run with my Friends and Guildies.. I will be happy.

As a person that played vanilla Oblivion ( 4 yrs) and Skyrim (3 yrs) on 360 ..till I got a PC.. and I still play Skyrim, Retention has much to do with the type of players.. not the difficulty only. Yes I can ( and do at times ) make Skyrim harder than Dark Souls II...BUT not every character! My Barbarian is on Master - Dead is Dead.. with mods of course.. the mod list if you are interested,

Deadly Dragons ( 2 spawn average 50%) Diverse Dragons ( same ), Immersive Creatures ( only thing toggled off is the Ore Guardians and that is because they can and DO spawn during the mining animation) , OBIS, SkyTest, CoT, Northern Encounters, Sea of Spirits, Better Vampire NPC's, Enemy Enhancer, Disable Combat Boundry, You are Not the Dragonborn ( this allows dragons to spawn right away and no dragon soul animation), ASIS, Lost Grimoire - not a difficulty mod on it's own but paired with ASIS it allows NPC's to use all it's spells. Loot and Degradation, Better Vampire Weapons, Wet and Cold.

Yes I DO use mods that keep Quest givers from being killed, and campfire and Wearable Lanterns and a TON of armor and weapon mods.. plus ones that make NPC's not quite the annoying P.I.T.A.'s they are!

At the same time, my Bard is on Adept, has a follower and really good armor.. her RP isn't about fighitng, it's about the adventure and exploring. This is what will keep me playing.. and buying new expansions.. the exploration factor.

Perhaps when I have played for a few years... the OW might not seem as challenging.. but then again.. I will find that Roleplay that takes my world view into account.. same as I do in Skyrim and Oblivion ( which I don't play as much ).

Sylvermynx

99.9% of people who play this game have "real" broadband. The remaining 1% of us really have no gripe (well, my portion of that percentage doesn't as I knew what I was getting into from the get go).

Honestly, with HughesNet instead of wildblue, things are better for me. Still there are going to be "outliers" - people who just want to play this marvelous game - but their connection is worse than mine on wildblue. And that's bound to cause issues, make unhappy people....

Bottom line is, I live in a "marginal" area - in the lower 48 states (yeah, we exist: not only do I not have "real" broadband, I also do not have "real tv" - which I might just say, is fine with me as I have no use for tv). I have the cleanest air and water, and the lowest prices for power, water, and propane in the whole US. But I don't have "real" broadband. And, since "real" broadband is somewhat dependent on fiber, I won't be seeing it in my lifetime. NO ONE is going to replace 60+ year old analog copper lines with fiber, for less than 150 full time residents.

Ain't hap'nin. I am nothing if not a realist (my despised brother calls me a cynic....) But really - no one's going to spend millions to run fiber into where I live, in my lifetime.

So, I make do with satellite. Nice thing is, I got so pissed at wildblue I canceled them, and HughesNet is twice as good.

Ysy me.

Bryath

Cireous wrote: »

From Yesterdays AUA on r/elderscrollsonline:

NerubianAssassin - 81 points
Hi Matt! Firstly, congratulations on the new Chapter, I had a blast playing it!

My question is related to new game systems, specifically new weapons.

Since the beginning I've always wanted to use spears as a weapon type, are there any plans to add them as a new skill line to ESO? Like a hybrid weapon that could be used either as a 2-handed spear, or as a 1-handed spear/shield.

What about other highly requested skill lines such as another magicka weapon (e.g. one hand/rune as seen in the classic Elder Scrolls games)?

EDIT: Bonus question, are there any plans to implement a more challenging overworld for veteran players (e.g. a difficulty toggle like Battle Spirit where you'd get debuff like 50% more damage taken and 50% less healing and damage done in exchange for a chance for mobs to drop zone furnishings and/or other rare items). It is disappointing to see solo quest bosses being hyped up as super powerful, then dying in 10 seconds.

ZOS_MattF - Zenimax - 87 points
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

-- So it sounds like they are at least wanting to do it some time in the future. It's really a shame this couldn't come out with 1T.

I'm encouraged that their answer wasn't just a flat 'no, never', but... they tried to get it in with One Tamriel (how long ago?) yet have nothing currently planned? Doesn't really make sense.

RavenSworn

Why are people blaming 1T for? That's asinine, 1T WAS the reason why the game came back alive in the first place! You know how vacant it was when you wanted to quest? Esp in the vet zones? And the grind to vet16-18 dear God.. Most players gave up with the game because

1) they couldn't play well with low chars anywhere, sure you can feel like a god coming into low levels but it just felt useless coming there. You gain nothing.

2) most vet zones were almost empty because everyone sticked to the 'endgame' zones. Even the capital cities, because of how the Cadwell silver and gold works, felt lesser than usual.

3) because it was so empty, new players coming into the game was always asking, is this game even alive? Why am I not seeing another player? This creates a false impression that the game might have been dead.


If it's one thing I like from before 1T is that quest bosses were meaningful, they had impact. You have to adapt your build, your approach, your gear setup. It made you think. That's good game design, when the game gives you the tools and let's you figure out how to manage the situation with the tools given.

Story quest bosses were solo instanced as well. And they made some sweat it out. Who wouldn't forget gut ripper pre1T? Who failed at Doshia repeatedly? But you needed to know how to defeat them, how to use the mechanics given.

Its a game but its also an mmorpg. There's no harm in trying out socializing. In trying out grouping when you are in the early stages of levelling.

Smasherx74

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why are people blaming 1T for? That's asinine, 1T WAS the reason why the game came back alive in the first place! You know how vacant it was when you wanted to quest? Esp in the vet zones? And the grind to vet16-18 dear God.. Most players gave up with the game because

1) they couldn't play well with low chars anywhere, sure you can feel like a god coming into low levels but it just felt useless coming there. You gain nothing.

2) most vet zones were almost empty because everyone sticked to the 'endgame' zones. Even the capital cities, because of how the Cadwell silver and gold works, felt lesser than usual.

3) because it was so empty, new players coming into the game was always asking, is this game even alive? Why am I not seeing another player? This creates a false impression that the game might have been dead.


If it's one thing I like from before 1T is that quest bosses were meaningful, they had impact. You have to adapt your build, your approach, your gear setup. It made you think. That's good game design, when the game gives you the tools and let's you figure out how to manage the situation with the tools given.

Story quest bosses were solo instanced as well. And they made some sweat it out. Who wouldn't forget gut ripper pre1T? Who failed at Doshia repeatedly? But you needed to know how to defeat them, how to use the mechanics given.

Its a game but its also an mmorpg. There's no harm in trying out socializing. In trying out grouping when you are in the early stages of levelling.

They didn't have to scale everything to let us play with everyone on other faction zones. They could have left the same levels, and then gave us more XP, or they could have introduced more content like craglorn for for Veteran / CP. There's multiple ways they could have open things up while not scaling. and all of this is ignoring the fact they didn't have to scale lower levels up so much, or scale monsters down so much compared to max cp.

1) Increase xp given once you reach CP.

2) There was only 1 vet zone and that was craglorn, which has always been popular hence the trader prices back then. Other faction main cities weren't populated... and that was because other factions were in a difference instance than us.

3) Same as 2, it was because we were in different instances. This wasn't an excuse to scale, as evident by 1.


Pre T1 things were actually scary while leveling up. Now it's like an amusement park.

Jeremy

Aireal wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't disagree, I just think today's gamers are missing out, because figuring things out is part of the fun... at least, it used to be.

It is.. while the OP want's more difficulty ( as do others ) in tougher OW ( and some in WB and Dungeons ).. I would like to see more difficulty in the way of puzzles, riddles... quest's you have to talk to other NPC's to get information to finish.. without great big arrows pointing the way!

I do miss the old days when obtaining information from NPCs - and more importantly from other players - was a big part of questing. It encouraged more interaction between players and made knowing experienced people with a lot of knowledge advantageous and added an interesting social dynamic modern MMORPGs don't have.

But I think that kind of game play has pretty much gone the way of the Dodo Bird. The internet killed it. All people have to do now is look things up online. So they may has well give players a quest tracker. It saves them the trouble of having to load up google.

Jeremy

Aireal wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Leocaran wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Besides that, as I said before, the current balance is based on ensuring the widest number of character builds and player skill levels will be able to progress through the content at a reasonable pace.

But there's no balance at all. Literally. 'Balance' means there's some challenge for an average player (in progressing through content, of course, i.e. questing, not soloing WB and vet dungeons). There's none. And 'the widest number of character builds and player skill levels' actually means 'all of them'. (No, 2s ping and disabilities don't count. Sorry, but they also must not count.)

Says who? No challenge for whom?

I may not be skilled in ESO , but I am darn good with other games I play.. including Dark Souls and Dark Souls II..all the Witcher games..Skyrim on Legendary ..etc.. once I learned those games they were not as difficult as everyone seems to think they are.

Skill and knowledge of a game go well to making them seem like they lack challenge. Stripping a high lvl character does nothing, starting a new character only slight challenge... but put 10 people to playing that never have before and are how many would think WB and Trials are no challenge...a truly average player would find some...some of the OW a challenge.

Just because you dont, doesn't mean others don't.

there is challenge in trials and four man dungeons. the issue becomes when the leveling experience did nothing to teach you how to play a role, build a character , and work as a group. then you have a massive skill gap when players hit the end game. they meet those who have played the game long term and scream they are elietists. they are not .most of them are just tired of teaching a rotating population how to play their character. you should know how to do that already and the only thing they teach you is the mechanics. im a filthy casual , i hardly ever do Trials most of time was spent in 4 mans. its just bad game design. we should not have huge swathes of people leaving when the story is done its called retention

I agree... ahh with most of that.

Making the OW more difficult in a general way, would not help to teach new players how to build and play with others. Not unless the game was so hard that they had to play in a group.

4 months later and not one of my characters is over 50.. but how many vids are on U-tube teaching ppl to level super fast? That is where a lot of the issue is with newbies. They don't DO the OW quest's and content slow enough to learn on their own. They are following a guide, but instead of using it as a 'guide' it is their bible of leveling.

And I will admit, I have a 'build' I found on-line for a Mag/Plar - healing.. and If I followed it, I'm sure I'll have a great PvP character.. But I also won't know until I have him at a high enough lvl I think he'll survive.

One PvE and one PvP character...`Quite frankly as ling as they are good enough to run with my Friends and Guildies.. I will be happy.

As a person that played vanilla Oblivion ( 4 yrs) and Skyrim (3 yrs) on 360 ..till I got a PC.. and I still play Skyrim, Retention has much to do with the type of players.. not the difficulty only. Yes I can ( and do at times ) make Skyrim harder than Dark Souls II...BUT not every character! My Barbarian is on Master - Dead is Dead.. with mods of course.. the mod list if you are interested,

Deadly Dragons ( 2 spawn average 50%) Diverse Dragons ( same ), Immersive Creatures ( only thing toggled off is the Ore Guardians and that is because they can and DO spawn during the mining animation) , OBIS, SkyTest, CoT, Northern Encounters, Sea of Spirits, Better Vampire NPC's, Enemy Enhancer, Disable Combat Boundry, You are Not the Dragonborn ( this allows dragons to spawn right away and no dragon soul animation), ASIS, Lost Grimoire - not a difficulty mod on it's own but paired with ASIS it allows NPC's to use all it's spells. Loot and Degradation, Better Vampire Weapons, Wet and Cold.

Yes I DO use mods that keep Quest givers from being killed, and campfire and Wearable Lanterns and a TON of armor and weapon mods.. plus ones that make NPC's not quite the annoying P.I.T.A.'s they are!

At the same time, my Bard is on Adept, has a follower and really good armor.. her RP isn't about fighitng, it's about the adventure and exploring. This is what will keep me playing.. and buying new expansions.. the exploration factor.

Perhaps when I have played for a few years... the OW might not seem as challenging.. but then again.. I will find that Roleplay that takes my world view into account.. same as I do in Skyrim and Oblivion ( which I don't play as much ).

Challenging combat makes exploration more fun because it adds a sense of danger to the environment and causes you to actually have to pay attention to it - which in turn makes it more "immersive". When everything is so easy you can literally just run through mobs and not care it turns questing into a simple game of run to point A to point B with scenery along the way. Engaging combat is a vital part of any good adventure game.

Tigerseye

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Jeremy

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

RavenSworn

Smasherx74 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why are people blaming 1T for? That's asinine, 1T WAS the reason why the game came back alive in the first place! You know how vacant it was when you wanted to quest? Esp in the vet zones? And the grind to vet16-18 dear God.. Most players gave up with the game because

1) they couldn't play well with low chars anywhere, sure you can feel like a god coming into low levels but it just felt useless coming there. You gain nothing.

2) most vet zones were almost empty because everyone sticked to the 'endgame' zones. Even the capital cities, because of how the Cadwell silver and gold works, felt lesser than usual.

3) because it was so empty, new players coming into the game was always asking, is this game even alive? Why am I not seeing another player? This creates a false impression that the game might have been dead.


If it's one thing I like from before 1T is that quest bosses were meaningful, they had impact. You have to adapt your build, your approach, your gear setup. It made you think. That's good game design, when the game gives you the tools and let's you figure out how to manage the situation with the tools given.

Story quest bosses were solo instanced as well. And they made some sweat it out. Who wouldn't forget gut ripper pre1T? Who failed at Doshia repeatedly? But you needed to know how to defeat them, how to use the mechanics given.

Its a game but its also an mmorpg. There's no harm in trying out socializing. In trying out grouping when you are in the early stages of levelling.

They didn't have to scale everything to let us play with everyone on other faction zones. They could have left the same levels, and then gave us more XP, or they could have introduced more content like craglorn for for Veteran / CP. There's multiple ways they could have open things up while not scaling. and all of this is ignoring the fact they didn't have to scale lower levels up so much, or scale monsters down so much compared to max cp.

1) Increase xp given once you reach CP.

2) There was only 1 vet zone and that was craglorn, which has always been popular hence the trader prices back then. Other faction main cities weren't populated... and that was because other factions were in a difference instance than us.

3) Same as 2, it was because we were in different instances. This wasn't an excuse to scale, as evident by 1.


Pre T1 things were actually scary while leveling up. Now it's like an amusement park.

Technically, Craglorn is a Group Zone, not veteran zone. Veteran zones were silver and gold, with regards to factions.

Your suggestions would mean gated overland content. Which defeats the purpose of opening up the world in the first place. By putting veteran overland ala Craglorn, all you are doing is putting barriers between veterans and newcomers.

While you say it's an amusement park now, there are apparently still people that are unable to play overland. But I'm not into that. I am supporting the notion that overland is easy, even for a new player. However, they don't need to add an option for different difficulties, just like the dungeons. They just need to up the ante by about 10-15%, like mob health, resistance, attack damage etc. Its still be slightly harder for vets but easy enough for the new players. You don't need group dungeon level mobs, just hard enough to promote group but still solo able.

Bryath

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

I don't know anything about Wildstar, but there are a huge range of possibilities in between the current 'kill almost any quest boss by spamming one ability while standing still', and 'need a full group to kill basic mobs'. No one is suggesting going anywhere near the extreme end of that range.
Besides, we're mostly talking about an optional veteran mode or difficulty slider.

Rolexdt

As a players who started eso only last November I am on the fence on this one.

When I started playing I had no gear, no gold, no glyphs, no mundus....etc. I remember going to summerset public dungeons and getting my ass kicked by the bosses and multiple trash enemies. I certainly did not think it was easy. I also zoned into cloudrest at one point in time thinking I'd try the "harder dungeon" solo and we know how that went...

I played regularly with my brother and we had blast taking down the public dungeons and delves and learning the game. Naturally as we started to gear up things became much easier but we found a challenge in the overland bosses. The bosses were quite different in all zones and some of the encounters were still pretty difficult.

I remember thinking how amazing the delves and dungeons are in terms of graphics and uniqueness. You have to appreciate that ESO does not cop out and recycle the same things over and over like many other games do.

After we hit CP160 I decided to try the next challenge with nMA and vMA. After dying a hundred times, watching videos, strategizing I finally beat it with my warden somewhere around CP 400 and have repeated it about 10 times. I know the mechanics well now but I definitely don't think of it as easy. This is by far the hardest solo content i have encountered in any mmo and I have played mmos since the 90s. I still dont have a perfected AS staff and I havent memorized the spawn points down to the second like some of the best players so it will be a while until I have 600+ on leaderboards.

I am now CP 750 and I created about 6 classes since to mess around on. I am.no where near finishing all content. The other day I was vHM tempest island and had some guy call me out on my tanking because we struggled with the last boss. Unfortunately he was the one running around all over the place making it very difficult to control the boss...

Anyhow the point is trying to make is that the difficulty comes early on and learning mechanics is part of it even now but i agree that once you figure out the mechanics then game gets much easier.

I too now wish the overland bosses were a bit tougher but in my opinion it's the loot that has become stale. Transmutes have destroyed value on items. On the flip side players can try out many different builds much easier with transmutes and that is a lot of fun as well.

This is a long post but it describes why I am on the fence.

barney2525

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't disagree, I just think today's gamers are missing out, because figuring things out is part of the fun... at least, it used to be.

It is.. while the OP want's more difficulty ( as do others ) in tougher OW ( and some in WB and Dungeons ).. I would like to see more difficulty in the way of puzzles, riddles... quest's you have to talk to other NPC's to get information to finish.. without great big arrows pointing the way!

Can you imagine how nuts people would go if quest markers got removed? Like holy crud there’d be millions of complaint threads because they were being forced to read dialogue and use clues

I was actually saying exactly this in chat tonight!

Actually, I played Star Trek Online for a good while, and made a few missions for the Foundry system (a mission creator system). STO has the same problem a lot of games do, where it says "Find so and so" and then puts them on the map with a giant arrow on them, PLUS they flash and glow.

So, I created a mission SPECIFICALLY without that, where the player had to find a fugitive who was hiding from the Romulans. I had the Romulans wandering around dropping hints (eg. "Search parties to the north report nothing in that section. Focus searches in the south."). SO many players left complaints that they couldn't find the guy, so I had one of the Bridge Crew NPCs offer advice if asked, telling the PCs to listen for clues... and players STILL complained.

I hate to think how players like that would have handled some of the puzzles in Arena, Dungeon Master or Pool of Radiance... or games like that.

It's so easy to criticize the players, when you are the GM who Knows all the information and Knows what the players are "supposed " to do.

RavenSworn

barney2525 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't disagree, I just think today's gamers are missing out, because figuring things out is part of the fun... at least, it used to be.

It is.. while the OP want's more difficulty ( as do others ) in tougher OW ( and some in WB and Dungeons ).. I would like to see more difficulty in the way of puzzles, riddles... quest's you have to talk to other NPC's to get information to finish.. without great big arrows pointing the way!

Can you imagine how nuts people would go if quest markers got removed? Like holy crud there’d be millions of complaint threads because they were being forced to read dialogue and use clues

I was actually saying exactly this in chat tonight!

Actually, I played Star Trek Online for a good while, and made a few missions for the Foundry system (a mission creator system). STO has the same problem a lot of games do, where it says "Find so and so" and then puts them on the map with a giant arrow on them, PLUS they flash and glow.

So, I created a mission SPECIFICALLY without that, where the player had to find a fugitive who was hiding from the Romulans. I had the Romulans wandering around dropping hints (eg. "Search parties to the north report nothing in that section. Focus searches in the south."). SO many players left complaints that they couldn't find the guy, so I had one of the Bridge Crew NPCs offer advice if asked, telling the PCs to listen for clues... and players STILL complained.

I hate to think how players like that would have handled some of the puzzles in Arena, Dungeon Master or Pool of Radiance... or games like that.

It's so easy to criticize the players, when you are the GM who Knows all the information and Knows what the players are "supposed " to do.

Of course, esp when sometimes, the clues are right in your face.

Tigerseye

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

You may have thought that, but I read player reviews and comments about it, when it was about to shut down and lots of people said it was a shame, because they thought it was a great game.

So, taking it from their perspective(s), it didn't work because it was too hard/inconvenient for the average player.

Not because they thought it was a bad game.

I can't comment, personally, because I didn't try it.

I viewed it more as a holding cell for obnoxious, elitist (or wannabe elitist, in most cases) players who wanted LFR removed from WoW.

srfrogg23

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

Wildstar was NOT trash. It was a genuinely fun game. It just wasn't accessible to the masses. That "clunky" interface was the product of a lot of moving information being provided all at once. When people learned how to use the interface, it was great, especially in raids. The combat system played into that system as well.

But, there's the problem. Carbine developed and marketed the kind of product that actually catered to hardcore gamers and MMO players, and then those same players turned around and bashed it, parroting overly harsh criticisms like "it's trash" because it turned out to be what they asked for, they just didn't know they were asking for it.

Wildstar was a fantastic game. It just doesn't work with modern audiences. Too much competition on the market these days. Which is a big reason for why Zos should NOT take ESO down that road, too. It would be a bad move.

RavenSworn

Tigerseye wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

You may have thought that, but I read player reviews and comments about it, when it was about to shut down and lots of people said it was a shame, because they thought it was a great game.

So, taking it from their perspectives, it didn't work because it was too hard/inconvenient for the average player.

Not because they thought it was a bad game.

It was actually a culmination of bad decisions and focus in actuality, than just because 'it was a game made for hardcore' players.

They shouldn't have gone ahead with the subscription model when there was already a huge game with that. Even starting with buy to play would have created enough front end capital, which eso did successfully.

Their niche marketing, goofy graphics, combat design decisions, culminating with the change to free to play model, all led to its demise.

Eve online, has some of the hardest entry level content. It's still going on today.

Not disagreeing with you but just wanted to clarify with some who think that games died due to their content, it's definitely not wildstar.

You want to see a game that is dying due to content? Retail wow BFA.

barney2525

RavenSworn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't disagree, I just think today's gamers are missing out, because figuring things out is part of the fun... at least, it used to be.

It is.. while the OP want's more difficulty ( as do others ) in tougher OW ( and some in WB and Dungeons ).. I would like to see more difficulty in the way of puzzles, riddles... quest's you have to talk to other NPC's to get information to finish.. without great big arrows pointing the way!

Can you imagine how nuts people would go if quest markers got removed? Like holy crud there’d be millions of complaint threads because they were being forced to read dialogue and use clues

I was actually saying exactly this in chat tonight!

Actually, I played Star Trek Online for a good while, and made a few missions for the Foundry system (a mission creator system). STO has the same problem a lot of games do, where it says "Find so and so" and then puts them on the map with a giant arrow on them, PLUS they flash and glow.

So, I created a mission SPECIFICALLY without that, where the player had to find a fugitive who was hiding from the Romulans. I had the Romulans wandering around dropping hints (eg. "Search parties to the north report nothing in that section. Focus searches in the south."). SO many players left complaints that they couldn't find the guy, so I had one of the Bridge Crew NPCs offer advice if asked, telling the PCs to listen for clues... and players STILL complained.

I hate to think how players like that would have handled some of the puzzles in Arena, Dungeon Master or Pool of Radiance... or games like that.

It's so easy to criticize the players, when you are the GM who Knows all the information and Knows what the players are "supposed " to do.

Of course, esp when sometimes, the clues are right in your face.

Apparently you never learned GM/DM 101

IF you want players to follow your plot, you have to Spoon Feed them the information. They do NOT know what they are looking for. They do NOT know what questions to ask. They do NOT know where to go or Why to go there.

What the WILL do is come up with ideas of their own that take them into a completely Wrong direction, because the DM/GM did not anticipate that idea.

If you are the one saying "All you had to do was ... ", then you are the problem.

To use your example - Why would the characters go around asking every Romulan in sight anything? That's NOT how they did things on the TV show, and they are in the mindset that they are playing things out the way it would be done on the show.

"Focus searches in the south".... wow... that's real helpful. how many square miles is that?

You did not look at your plotline from the position of the player who knew nothing.

Tigerseye

RavenSworn wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

You may have thought that, but I read player reviews and comments about it, when it was about to shut down and lots of people said it was a shame, because they thought it was a great game.

So, taking it from their perspectives, it didn't work because it was too hard/inconvenient for the average player.

Not because they thought it was a bad game.

It was actually a culmination of bad decisions and focus in actuality, than just because 'it was a game made for hardcore' players.

They shouldn't have gone ahead with the subscription model when there was already a huge game with that. Even starting with buy to play would have created enough front end capital, which eso did successfully.

Their niche marketing, goofy graphics, combat design decisions, culminating with the change to free to play model, all led to its demise.

Eve online, has some of the hardest entry level content. It's still going on today.

Not disagreeing with you but just wanted to clarify with some who think that games died due to their content, it's definitely not wildstar.

You want to see a game that is dying due to content? Retail wow BFA.

WoW have made a lot of bad decisions...

MoP was great - WoD (which reversed all the good done in MoP) was horrible.

Can't speak for the rest of it - left 5 years ago, in utter disgust and didn't go back.

NocturnalSonata

Is overland, delves, public dungeons etc... too easy?

Yes and no. I am not going to make the case for yes as it is easier to understand no if you think like a casual. To do so you need to step outside of your character build and play

BUILD

• Take a lvl50 character, strip the cp, strip the Armour, and strip your attribute points.
• Place a mix of stam/mag/health into attributes. My friends (causal) plays with only a marginal increase in mag over rest.
• Have a mix mash of picked up random gear on
• Weapons are far from meta e.g a mage could be using a bow and a staff
• Have a bar set-up that makes little sense (mainly use just 1 bar)
• Use no food or potions

PLAY

• In battle, stand in red frequently
• Block very occasionally
• Every now and then you may use a heal
• You may shield occasionally, but not use both shield and heal.

Ok, now you are getting close to what i reproduced from how my friend had their character set-up (was a dk for reference). I tried this myself, and while i still managed to do overland stuff without too much hassle, getting 3-4 mobs at a time was sometimes tricky and i even managed to die.

I don't believe this is an extreme case among casual story mode gamers. So for them, the only saving grace is starting out at lvl3 with buffed stats, if they dont get any better by the time they hit 50, the game can be surprisingly difficult.

All that said - if you are cp, have some gaming chops on you, and can actually chain some skills together. Then overland is very easy. However, tbh, i dont mind, as questing becomes almost therapeutic.

srfrogg23

Tigerseye wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

You may have thought that, but I read player reviews and comments about it, when it was about to shut down and lots of people said it was a shame, because they thought it was a great game.

So, taking it from their perspectives, it didn't work because it was too hard/inconvenient for the average player.

Not because they thought it was a bad game.

It was actually a culmination of bad decisions and focus in actuality, than just because 'it was a game made for hardcore' players.

They shouldn't have gone ahead with the subscription model when there was already a huge game with that. Even starting with buy to play would have created enough front end capital, which eso did successfully.

Their niche marketing, goofy graphics, combat design decisions, culminating with the change to free to play model, all led to its demise.

Eve online, has some of the hardest entry level content. It's still going on today.

Not disagreeing with you but just wanted to clarify with some who think that games died due to their content, it's definitely not wildstar.

You want to see a game that is dying due to content? Retail wow BFA.

WoW have made a lot of bad decisions...

MoP was great - WoD (which reversed all the good done in MoP) was horrible.

Can't speak for the rest of it - left 5 years ago, in utter disgust and didn't go back.

I agree. Blizzard went too far in the opposite direction. They streamlined and dumbed-down WoW way too much. Their crusade against flying only served to rub it in players faces just how on-rails WoW has become.

I think ESO is at a nice middle ground between WoW and Wildstar. Complex enough to allow for tinkering and personalization while being accessible enough to promote a growing customer interest and sustainability.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Tigerseye wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

Wildstar was trash with a clunky interface and horrid combat scheme. I promise you - what made Wildstar fail was not a challenging overworld.

You may have thought that, but I read player reviews and comments about it, when it was about to shut down and lots of people said it was a shame, because they thought it was a great game.

So, taking it from their perspectives, it didn't work because it was too hard/inconvenient for the average player.

Not because they thought it was a bad game.

It was actually a culmination of bad decisions and focus in actuality, than just because 'it was a game made for hardcore' players.

They shouldn't have gone ahead with the subscription model when there was already a huge game with that. Even starting with buy to play would have created enough front end capital, which eso did successfully.

Their niche marketing, goofy graphics, combat design decisions, culminating with the change to free to play model, all led to its demise.

Eve online, has some of the hardest entry level content. It's still going on today.

Not disagreeing with you but just wanted to clarify with some who think that games died due to their content, it's definitely not wildstar.

You want to see a game that is dying due to content? Retail wow BFA.

WoW have made a lot of bad decisions...

MoP was great - WoD (which reversed all the good done in MoP) was horrible.

Can't speak for the rest of it - left 5 years ago, in utter disgust and didn't go back.

I did not get better, in fact quite the opposite. For me WoW died along with the Lich King, everything else was just bad fan fiction like Babylon 5 season 5 or Defiance Season 3.

Smasherx74

RavenSworn wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why are people blaming 1T for? That's asinine, 1T WAS the reason why the game came back alive in the first place! You know how vacant it was when you wanted to quest? Esp in the vet zones? And the grind to vet16-18 dear God.. Most players gave up with the game because

1) they couldn't play well with low chars anywhere, sure you can feel like a god coming into low levels but it just felt useless coming there. You gain nothing.

2) most vet zones were almost empty because everyone sticked to the 'endgame' zones. Even the capital cities, because of how the Cadwell silver and gold works, felt lesser than usual.

3) because it was so empty, new players coming into the game was always asking, is this game even alive? Why am I not seeing another player? This creates a false impression that the game might have been dead.


If it's one thing I like from before 1T is that quest bosses were meaningful, they had impact. You have to adapt your build, your approach, your gear setup. It made you think. That's good game design, when the game gives you the tools and let's you figure out how to manage the situation with the tools given.

Story quest bosses were solo instanced as well. And they made some sweat it out. Who wouldn't forget gut ripper pre1T? Who failed at Doshia repeatedly? But you needed to know how to defeat them, how to use the mechanics given.

Its a game but its also an mmorpg. There's no harm in trying out socializing. In trying out grouping when you are in the early stages of levelling.

They didn't have to scale everything to let us play with everyone on other faction zones. They could have left the same levels, and then gave us more XP, or they could have introduced more content like craglorn for for Veteran / CP. There's multiple ways they could have open things up while not scaling. and all of this is ignoring the fact they didn't have to scale lower levels up so much, or scale monsters down so much compared to max cp.

1) Increase xp given once you reach CP.

2) There was only 1 vet zone and that was craglorn, which has always been popular hence the trader prices back then. Other faction main cities weren't populated... and that was because other factions were in a difference instance than us.

3) Same as 2, it was because we were in different instances. This wasn't an excuse to scale, as evident by 1.


Pre T1 things were actually scary while leveling up. Now it's like an amusement park.

Technically, Craglorn is a Group Zone, not veteran zone. Veteran zones were silver and gold, with regards to factions.

Your suggestions would mean gated overland content. Which defeats the purpose of opening up the world in the first place. By putting veteran overland ala Craglorn, all you are doing is putting barriers between veterans and newcomers.

While you say it's an amusement park now, there are apparently still people that are unable to play overland. But I'm not into that. I am supporting the notion that overland is easy, even for a new player. However, they don't need to add an option for different difficulties, just like the dungeons. They just need to up the ante by about 10-15%, like mob health, resistance, attack damage etc. Its still be slightly harder for vets but easy enough for the new players. You don't need group dungeon level mobs, just hard enough to promote group but still solo able.

Oh I see what you mean sorry i thought you were referring to Max CP/VR16.

I disagree I've seen countless people pick this game up and just breeze right through the overworld content like it's nothing. In contrast to other MMOs such as WoW the questing and overworld is incredibly easy as I explained in my OP. Low levels are scaled too high, and monsters are scaled too low relative to CP players. I never called for an option for different difficulties, I just want the scaling to be nerfed or to go back to the classic leveling system, and preferably do away with champion points and instead make them separate stat points similar to Oblivion or Morrowind's character creation.

Leocaran

Rolexdt wrote: »

This is a long post but it describes why I am on the fence.

Well, it's a nice post, but mostly it isn't what people are talking about. Public dungeons are the hardest content closest to overland (but isn't overland), and they are in a fine place, I think (still soloable for a high-level char, and not supposed to be a solo for lower levels: they are public dungeons). Summerset difficulty is measurably higher than that of the base game (at least for world bosses and local 'dolmens'). Veteran dungeons, trials, MA - all of these is not the topic here (even though some people rarely mention them or even think them easy). Even if you read only the TS post, it's not about those at all. It's about quest fights and bosses, overland and probably delves (which are mostly part of quest content too).
So, quest bosses. Too hard?

marius_buys

If end game players find the overworld too easy go do some end game HM content or PvP and stfu. The game is set at different levels for a reason.

And DK's are way too tanky and need a nerf in PvP.

Rolexdt

Touche.

I was just trying to point out that overland was not easy when I first started and although it is easy now there is a lot of much harder content available.

Khumbu

Cataclysm (WoW) spiked up its dungeon’s difficulty? Player dropoff.
BFA? Tried to implement scaling, destroyed all sense of progression.
Wildstar? Practically stillborn.
EQ2? Nerfed from group overland mobs to a solo steamroll by 2005. Still didn’t stop the masses from migrating to WoW at the time, why? Because it was more casual.
Even in this game, where DLC vet dungeons have tangible rewards like important monster helms, very few people feel like they can’t wait to do them. Instead you sigh, open up your friend list, and pray enough good players are on to form a group.
Also, as someone who was around since Beta, Craglorn was a miserable wasteland and the “difficulty” of the Cadwell zones felt artificial and tedious.

I’m all for an EQ1 style challenge...IN ANOTHER GAME. I like that I can play in vet trials while my elderly father chills in the overworld. I like feeling the effects of my progression by mowing down mobs in a victory lap after doing a trial or dlc dungeon. This isn’t an old-school MMO or a classic roguelike. Go for flawless VMA, solo dungeon runs, vet progression, no death achievements. Go play in the big kid’s sandbox. Leave the overworld alone.

Jhalin

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Is overland, delves, public dungeons etc... too easy?

Yes and no. I am not going to make the case for yes as it is easier to understand no if you think like a casual. To do so you need to step outside of your character build and play

BUILD

• Take a lvl50 character, strip the cp, strip the Armour, and strip your attribute points.
• Place a mix of stam/mag/health into attributes. My friends (causal) plays with only a marginal increase in mag over rest.
• Have a mix mash of picked up random gear on
• Weapons are far from meta e.g a mage could be using a bow and a staff
• Have a bar set-up that makes little sense (mainly use just 1 bar)
• Use no food or potions

PLAY

• In battle, stand in red frequently
• Block very occasionally
• Every now and then you may use a heal
• You may shield occasionally, but not use both shield and heal.

Ok, now you are getting close to what i reproduced from how my friend had their character set-up (was a dk for reference). I tried this myself, and while i still managed to do overland stuff without too much hassle, getting 3-4 mobs at a time was sometimes tricky and i even managed to die.

I don't believe this is an extreme case among casual story mode gamers. So for them, the only saving grace is starting out at lvl3 with buffed stats, if they dont get any better by the time they hit 50, the game can be surprisingly difficult.

All that said - if you are cp, have some gaming chops on you, and can actually chain some skills together. Then overland is very easy. However, tbh, i dont mind, as questing becomes almost therapeutic.

That whole “build” and “play” should be discouraged as you advance because it’s taking a lowest common denminator and framing it as acceptable when it isn’t. It will hurt players in the long run to not be given any requirements to fine tune their build. A new player should be led into strengthening their character. Something that’s throw together poorly should struggle and yes, have an increasing chance for failure, as the game progresses

Linaleah

Bryath wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wildstar.

Will you people ever learn?

No company, in their right mind, wants to follow down that road to nowhere.

I don't know anything about Wildstar, but there are a huge range of possibilities in between the current 'kill almost any quest boss by spamming one ability while standing still', and 'need a full group to kill basic mobs'. No one is suggesting going anywhere near the extreme end of that range.
Besides, we're mostly talking about an optional veteran mode or difficulty slider.

I've been playing for years and at none of those times i have ever killed any bosses by spamming a single ability while standing still. even on lowbie characters whose bars are basically "I'm leveling everything all at once becasue skill leveling system in this game is ridiculous and therefore only one of the skills on my bars is actualy useful with this particular weapons" - I have to move around, I have to block, or dodge or interrupt... or die. yes. in delves. in story bosses. I mean few pages up, Martini was showing how he was killing a troll with light attacks... while dodging like crazy. sure he was using light attacks but her was NOT standing still. you can't actualy stand still unless your burst is so high, things die before you have to move. and herein lays the rub. for a good number of players? their damage burst is nowhere NEAR that high and its not getting anywhere NEAR that high. (and if your burst is that high, you are NOT just spamming a single attack, are you)

P.S. Neverwinter just tried to make their questing more challenging. they lasted what.. a month? before apparent player dropoff forced them to roll out the nerfs to content.