Incap Changes in 5.0.4.

The_Lex

If there was ever a demonstration ZOS' lack any unified direction and approach for combat balance, it's the nightblade in this patch.

And I'm not even a NB main.

Rob Garrett:

To that effect, the team is currently investing a portion of its time into codifying our vision and long-term strategy for combat.

See, kids, not everyone is to be believed.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

After all the posts joking about how they were probably trying to shoehorn in some dumb way to keep this original bad idea alive, that's exactly what they went and did.

Now it's a officially a NB nerf and still a dumb idea. NBs were fine, the other classes needed some attention.

Err, what? What class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?

The general consensus from best on worst on live is:

Stamwarden, Magsorc
MagWarden, MagDK
StamDK, Stamsorc
Templars
Nightblades

Then opinions change depending on some people who need to L2P and blame the class for their own failures. I see tons of classes and players, I don’t play a stamblade and think it’s underpowered, I say they’re terrible from seeing how they perform.

That looks like a BG’s best to worst honestly. That doesn’t translate to cp open world. In CP-OW Stamblade gets pushed up there with Magsorc and stamwarden.

Let me add, there’s is no definitive best to worst that successfully encompasses all areas and scenarios. Except Magsorc is top dawg in all formats.

The only thing going for stamblade in CP pvp is dodge rolling. People haven’t clued into dodge rolling having nothing to do with Nightblade, any stamina class can do the same thing, and in fact it’s stronger on a stamsorc.

I also think stamwardens are stronger then magsorcs.

Most people confuse the class with things that have nothing to do with the class’ toolkit. Like dodge rolling as a stamblade or reach for sorcs with the weapon that buffs a DESTRO staff ability.

darkblue5

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

please take notice of what happens on this forums.
if there is a nerf to nightblades it is done with very little effect and we swallow it accept it and learn to still kill people in other ways.
but when a nerf happens that effects magicka builds or anything that magicka builds dont like then we see a huge uproar in threads and complaints that everything is changed to not only remove that nerf but also attack and nerf even more to nightlbades and thier class skills even further.

here in this thread we see that in full effect.

PREPOSTEROUS!

The reason NBs don't complain much is because deep down they know how lucky they are. You guys have NEVER been nerfed. EVER! Not with a *real* nerf. If they gave Cloak an exponentially increasing cost like Bolt Escape, THAT would be a nerf. You guys get tweaks, not nerfs. Don't even talk to me about nerfs.

LOL, even when you guys get buffs, like 15% mitigation just for weaving light attacks, you guys cry as if you've been nerfed. Do unappreciated buffs count as nerfs for you guys? Stop while you're ahead!

Fair on the 15% mitigation . Not correct if you've paid attention to the repeated nightblade nerfs. The harshest one, slow bow firing, was partly reverted this PTS cycle because it was too harsh.

Xvorg

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

please take notice of what happens on this forums.
if there is a nerf to nightblades it is done with very little effect and we swallow it accept it and learn to still kill people in other ways.
but when a nerf happens that effects magicka builds or anything that magicka builds dont like then we see a huge uproar in threads and complaints that everything is changed to not only remove that nerf but also attack and nerf even more to nightlbades and thier class skills even further.

here in this thread we see that in full effect.

PREPOSTEROUS!

The reason NBs don't complain much is because deep down they know how lucky they are. You guys have NEVER been nerfed. EVER! Not with a *real* nerf. If they gave Cloak an exponentially increasing cost like Bolt Escape, THAT would be a nerf. You guys get tweaks, not nerfs. Don't even talk to me about nerfs.

LOL, even when you guys get buffs, like 15% mitigation just for weaving light attacks, you guys cry as if you've been nerfed. Do unappreciated buffs count as nerfs for you guys? Stop while you're ahead!

The nerf to the purge on cloak was a strong one imho, the rest has not been has strong as that one.

darkblue5

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Cagro wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

IMO stun was better and more fair, I still dont get it why they changed it to end up with a breakable silence.

Elder Scrolls Online is a good game but the changes the developers keep making to active skills and racial passives are weird. They should keep things simple so they do not confuse and frustrate players. This skill is a perfect example of their weirdness. Why will I want a breakable silence when I can stun with a different ability?

TBF most (!) of the racial stuff was at least okay and overall races are closer together now. Sure, 2-3 wierd and bad exceptions.
I'm also not sure what I should prefer: is it better to have a clear vision and follow that through with just minor adjustments or shall is it better to make those huge jumps like in this patch on NBs that don't seem to have a fixed aim.

But anyway, we have still the usual, untested surprise changes when stuff goes live.

I think boldly leaping and then reverting is preferable even if annoying to those of us who closely follow the PTS. Few players do and suggesting wild and out there things, and feeling free to so, is important.

A clear vision should then guide the response to those suggested changes but shouldn't preclude them from coming up or even being tried out on PTS.

darkblue5

Xvorg wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

please take notice of what happens on this forums.
if there is a nerf to nightblades it is done with very little effect and we swallow it accept it and learn to still kill people in other ways.
but when a nerf happens that effects magicka builds or anything that magicka builds dont like then we see a huge uproar in threads and complaints that everything is changed to not only remove that nerf but also attack and nerf even more to nightlbades and thier class skills even further.

here in this thread we see that in full effect.

PREPOSTEROUS!

The reason NBs don't complain much is because deep down they know how lucky they are. You guys have NEVER been nerfed. EVER! Not with a *real* nerf. If they gave Cloak an exponentially increasing cost like Bolt Escape, THAT would be a nerf. You guys get tweaks, not nerfs. Don't even talk to me about nerfs.

LOL, even when you guys get buffs, like 15% mitigation just for weaving light attacks, you guys cry as if you've been nerfed. Do unappreciated buffs count as nerfs for you guys? Stop while you're ahead!

The nerf to the purge on cloak was a strong one imho, the rest has not been has strong as that one.

That was longer ago. There are even more nightblade nerfs from longer ago if Emma has the time.

Iki

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

After all the posts joking about how they were probably trying to shoehorn in some dumb way to keep this original bad idea alive, that's exactly what they went and did.

Now it's a officially a NB nerf and still a dumb idea. NBs were fine, the other classes needed some attention.

Err, what? What class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?

The general consensus from best on worst on live is:

Stamwarden, Magsorc
MagWarden, MagDK
StamDK, Stamsorc
Templars
Nightblades

Then opinions change depending on some people who need to L2P and blame the class for their own failures. I see tons of classes and players, I don’t play a stamblade and think it’s underpowered, I say they’re terrible from seeing how they perform.

When will you learn that it`s pointless to make such best to worst listings if you are not very specific about context. What do you mean with pvp? Zerging? Organized raiding? Small-group, duo, 1 vs X, dueling, ganking, battlegrounds, no-cp or cp-pvp? Different classes shine in different situations and if you fail to see difference between those contexts then you for sure are not the right person to make best to worst list about classes.

I also despise the attitude I often find in your comments, as you tend to imply that people who disagree with you got L2P-issues. That`s just arrogant approach to conversation.

Finally, you asked: "What other class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?" That question very clearly demonstrates how narrow your point of view is. Had you used "higher-mmr battlegrounds" instead of "pvp", that question would make sense, but you used pvp. At least for me that give impression that you seriously lack experience in other aspects of pvp. There is pvp outside of battlegrounds, lots of different kind of pvp, and I can assure you that nightblades are not terrible or underpowered there.

Have a nice day.

Emma_Overload

darkblue5 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

please take notice of what happens on this forums.
if there is a nerf to nightblades it is done with very little effect and we swallow it accept it and learn to still kill people in other ways.
but when a nerf happens that effects magicka builds or anything that magicka builds dont like then we see a huge uproar in threads and complaints that everything is changed to not only remove that nerf but also attack and nerf even more to nightlbades and thier class skills even further.

here in this thread we see that in full effect.

PREPOSTEROUS!

The reason NBs don't complain much is because deep down they know how lucky they are. You guys have NEVER been nerfed. EVER! Not with a *real* nerf. If they gave Cloak an exponentially increasing cost like Bolt Escape, THAT would be a nerf. You guys get tweaks, not nerfs. Don't even talk to me about nerfs.

LOL, even when you guys get buffs, like 15% mitigation just for weaving light attacks, you guys cry as if you've been nerfed. Do unappreciated buffs count as nerfs for you guys? Stop while you're ahead!

The nerf to the purge on cloak was a strong one imho, the rest has not been has strong as that one.

That was longer ago. There are even more nightblade nerfs from longer ago if Emma has the time.

It's OK, I trust you.

I'm sure if you went all the way back to launch, there would be something I never even heard of. But for the last couple years, Nighblades have been consistently strong while other classes have had ups and downs.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

After all the posts joking about how they were probably trying to shoehorn in some dumb way to keep this original bad idea alive, that's exactly what they went and did.

Now it's a officially a NB nerf and still a dumb idea. NBs were fine, the other classes needed some attention.

Err, what? What class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?

The general consensus from best on worst on live is:

Stamwarden, Magsorc
MagWarden, MagDK
StamDK, Stamsorc
Templars
Nightblades

Then opinions change depending on some people who need to L2P and blame the class for their own failures. I see tons of classes and players, I don’t play a stamblade and think it’s underpowered, I say they’re terrible from seeing how they perform.

That looks like a BG’s best to worst honestly. That doesn’t translate to cp open world. In CP-OW Stamblade gets pushed up there with Magsorc and stamwarden.

Let me add, there’s is no definitive best to worst that successfully encompasses all areas and scenarios. Except Magsorc is top dawg in all formats.

The only thing going for stamblade in CP pvp is dodge rolling. People haven’t clued into dodge rolling having nothing to do with Nightblade, any stamina class can do the same thing, and in fact it’s stronger on a stamsorc.

I also think stamwardens are stronger then magsorcs.

Most people confuse the class with things that have nothing to do with the class’ toolkit. Like dodge rolling as a stamblade or reach for sorcs with the weapon that buffs a DESTRO staff ability.

On live- stamblade kit is incredible. That’ll change in Elsweyr. But don’t be fooled into thinking that class hasn’t been OP strong in damage and ability to leave and re-enter the fight at will. Yes dodge roll has a lot to do with that, but so does cloak, ability to run full sustain sets and hit like a freight liner with just their spammable. Plenty of class specific traits that have made them op outside of dodge roll spam.

Stamden might be stronger in some group comps because of AOE burst skills.

Magsorc is laughably broken though. It’s honestly a carry class right now with certain sets. And that has nothing to do with reach. More so how easy they can survive and kite dmg while waiting for burst windows. 27k health and 20k shields, max resistances, spammable streak (don’t be fooled by the increase cost... dark exchange overcomes that) 8k heals from the matriarch.... 3 delayed burst skills. It’s funny af

Chilly-McFreeze

Insco851 wrote: »

27k health and 20k shields, max resistances, spammable streak (don’t be fooled by the increase cost... dark exchange overcomes that) [...]... 3 delayed burst skills. It’s funny af

Tells a lot about your experience.

gepe87

Can devs think about a solid change? Incap version 1, v2, v3, v4, v5... Basically 2 patches just to adjust 1 skill...that is 5 years old...

pieratsos

The changes to incap are funnier than pet changes and rune cage changes.

First they nerf it cause it was overloaded and add a mechanic which is completely useless and the skill had to be buffed again, then they remove the cc and add a mechanic which is worse than a cc and make the skill even more broken than it is and their way to fix it is to make people cc break that mechanic which brings you back to square one but now with the added effect that the skill is clunky to use even for the NB so now everyone complains about it. Lmao i cant stop laughing.

And to think that we were actually blaming wrobel and praised wheeler. lol. But hey, at least you tried.

TequilaFire

Just wait for when they finally get around to the long promised Sorc toolkit rework.
Pepperidge Farm will remember.

Spizzie

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Because the point was to nerf it.
And it's nerfed.
Magika builds are not being shut down.
Incap is nerfed against stamina builds and to a lesser extend against magika builds.
There you have it.
Now buff stamDK
Nerf SnB
Nerf DB
Nerf sorc
Delete Fury

Honestly, all of these changes are probably healthy. I'm not sure what you need to do to SnB to make it more fair, but it's obviously overloaded right now considering how effective it is on both Mag builds and DPS builds. StamDK desperately needs buffs outside of Fury, Sorc is being carried by that Twilight which acts as an insanely strong burst heal, an unavoidable DoT that hits crazy hard, and a LoS tool that absorbs attacks intended for the player. Dawnbreaker should cost 25 points more, at least. Compare Dawnbreaker and Meteor and you'll see how grossly unbalanced DB is.

Spizzie

darkblue5 wrote: »

I mean maybe when stamina healers are a real thing and there are reasonable stamina support skills? Part of the reason that Silence is the way it is is that there is still an imbalance as far as what sorts of and strength of effects mag builds have access to compared with stam builds.

Also new Incap is unslottable unless you're going around only targeting magicka builds with it and calling that "target selection" and "skill intensive play". Even then might not be slottable except in the highest of lag where no one can reliably break free.

My StamDen is a legit small group healer and will be even stronger once the expansion hits. Troll King and Powerful Assault combined with Vigor, Spores, Trees, Leeching Vines, and with Elsweyr, the Spider-Man vine will be a powerful heal as well.

Insco851

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

27k health and 20k shields, max resistances, spammable streak (don’t be fooled by the increase cost... dark exchange overcomes that) [...]... 3 delayed burst skills. It’s funny af

Tells a lot about your experience.[/quote

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

27k health and 20k shields, max resistances, spammable streak (don’t be fooled by the increase cost... dark exchange overcomes that) [...]... 3 delayed burst skills. It’s funny af

Tells a lot about your experience.

TequilaFire wrote: »

Just wait for when they finally get around to the long promised Sorc toolkit rework.
Pepperidge Farm will remember.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This is gone from bad to worse. For once, I wish ZOS would learn to just say, “oops, my bad, we are just going to call it a mistake and revert it.”

I am not saying the silence is OP, it just doesn’t make sense to design a completely new mechanic (a CC breakable silence) to help balance a skill that was only slightly over performing to begin with. Not to mention the fact that they don’t have the best track record with getting CC break and immunity to work reliably.

Please stop doubling down on bad decisions. I was under the impression with the recent few patches that your goal was to standardize and simplify your toolkit to help with future balance. This is in direct conflict with that philosophy.

Sandman929

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This is gone from bad to worse. For once, I wish ZOS would learn to just say, “oops, my bad, we are just going to call it a mistake and revert it”

I am not saying the silence is OP, it just doesn’t make sense to design a completely new mechanic (a CC breakable silence) to help balance a skill that was only slightly over performing to begin with. Not to mention the fact that they don’t have the best track record with getting CC break and immunity to work reliably.

Absolutely agree. They could have taken off Major Defile and called it done.

Insco851

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

27k health and 20k shields, max resistances, spammable streak (don’t be fooled by the increase cost... dark exchange overcomes that) [...]... 3 delayed burst skills. It’s funny af

Tells a lot about your experience.

Tells more about every Tom and Harry that’s playing them right now.

ZarkingFrued

Galarthor wrote: »

Incapacitating Strike: The Silence from this ability can now be CC broken, and cannot be activated on targets who are already affected by a CC effect.
Note that this change is exclusive to Incapacitating Strike, and will not apply to other Silences, such as Negate Magic, since those are area effect-based pulsing durations, versus instantaneous duration-based effects.

Developer Comment: As mentioned in the 5.0.3 patch notes, the goal with the change to Incapacitating Strike’s conditional bonus was to tone down some of the shut-down mechanic to it, since Silences are essentially stuns that allow the target to continue moving, blocking, and dodging. We are aware of the nature that Silences have in terms of effectiveness on varying builds, which is why we found the ability to CC break this effect would be an ideal compromise; it still has the counter play options of a traditional stun, but no longer needs to always be broken.

How about we get some abilities that hurt stamina builds but are harmless to magicka builds for a change? It's not enough that magicka builds have already had negate only affecting them and were lacking counters to roots and slows, no the magicka bashing has had to continue ... . We are 5 years into the game and we are still waiting for a "Silence" equivalent to stamina builds.

Stamblades run this game
They cannot be silenced, as we have already tried.

ZarkingFrued

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Because the point was to nerf it.
And it's nerfed.
Magika builds are not being shut down.
Incap is nerfed against stamina builds and to a lesser extend against magika builds.
There you have it.
Now buff stamDK
Nerf SnB
Nerf DB
Nerf sorc
Delete Fury

Someone plays Stam DK, huh?

Derra

Maulkin wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Silence on Incap is a bad idea in general and should be removed completly....

The new change just show how far Devs are from PvP in this game. Just seeing a Nightblade fearing someone and not being able to use Incap on its target....

Why incap needs to be this overloaded?

- Huge single target burst
- 20% increased damage taken
- Sustain just by slotting it

Why it needs more? Just remove the silence completly and it will still be a really good ultimate..... I thought we wanted to go away from overloaded skills? Now you just put everything into one ultimate that someone can ever dream of.... Wtf ZOS

Yeah, I don't get it either. Compare it with Take Flight, Crescent Sweep and Overload, it's so much better as a damage ult even without the Silence/Stun. Add that in and it's overloaded pure and simple.

Anyhow, did I understand correctly that if your enemy is CC immune, you can't cast Incap at all? Cause that would be terrible!

The thing is though - the old incap was fun to use.

I´ve always wished for overload, take flight and crescent sweep to be more like incap or dawnbreaker - because those were cool and fun to play with.
Well i guess dawnbreaker still is - for now.

Savos_Saren

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

After all the posts joking about how they were probably trying to shoehorn in some dumb way to keep this original bad idea alive, that's exactly what they went and did.

Now it's a officially a NB nerf and still a dumb idea. NBs were fine, the other classes needed some attention.

Err, what? What class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?

The general consensus from best on worst on live is:

Stamwarden, Magsorc
MagWarden, MagDK
StamDK, Stamsorc
Templars
Nightblades

Then opinions change depending on some people who need to L2P and blame the class for their own failures. I see tons of classes and players, I don’t play a stamblade and think it’s underpowered, I say they’re terrible from seeing how they perform.

Wow. Just 100% wrong here.

The tiers are:

#1. StamBlade, MagSorc, StamDen.
#2. Everyone else.

DeadlyRecluse

There are different contexts for PvP in the game, and the "tier list" looks different in all of them.

Stamblades are certainly strong in some contexts.

GeorgeBlack

olsborg wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Nerf SnB
Nerf DB

Agreed.

Why do you select what's convenient for you?
As a stamDK I've put down what I find OP, fury and snb

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Because the point was to nerf it.
And it's nerfed.
Magika builds are not being shut down.
Incap is nerfed against stamina builds and to a lesser extend against magika builds.
There you have it.
Now buff stamDK
Nerf SnB
Nerf DB
Nerf sorc
Delete Fury

Someone plays Stam DK, huh?

Without Fury 7th BS SnB. I also call for nerfs to an unkillable build can can two shoot you.

CleymenZero

Galarthor wrote: »

Incapacitating Strike: The Silence from this ability can now be CC broken, and cannot be activated on targets who are already affected by a CC effect.
Note that this change is exclusive to Incapacitating Strike, and will not apply to other Silences, such as Negate Magic, since those are area effect-based pulsing durations, versus instantaneous duration-based effects.

Developer Comment: As mentioned in the 5.0.3 patch notes, the goal with the change to Incapacitating Strike’s conditional bonus was to tone down some of the shut-down mechanic to it, since Silences are essentially stuns that allow the target to continue moving, blocking, and dodging. We are aware of the nature that Silences have in terms of effectiveness on varying builds, which is why we found the ability to CC break this effect would be an ideal compromise; it still has the counter play options of a traditional stun, but no longer needs to always be broken.

How about we get some abilities that hurt stamina builds but are harmless to magicka builds for a change? It's not enough that magicka builds have already had negate only affecting them and were lacking counters to roots and slows, no the magicka bashing has had to continue ... . We are 5 years into the game and we are still waiting for a "Silence" equivalent to stamina builds.

I'm much more comfortable with that version of incap but haven't to say that my only gripe with this is that it still only targets magicka.

Lord-Otto

Silence on Incap is a terrible idea, period. It makes sense having it as an expensive support ult on THE mag class. Much like THE stealth class has the best stealth counter, Mark. And both do just that, apply the effect and don't add another 10k burst damage.
Btw, "Disarm", like in Oblivion, would be the stamina-suppressing equivalent. It not being in the game really is telling how badly designed stam vs mag is.

The stun on overcharged Incap was fine and necessary. Soul Harvest should have it, too. It's either the Defile or the unique vulnerability debuff that was overkill on a cheap ult like that. And WTF is that mumbo jumbo with having it slotted to gain a bonus? That just screams "don't ever look for alternatives, you need the slotting bonus!".

Hhh... Just remove the darned Defile and stop playing around, you're wasting everyone's time.

Lord-Otto

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

After all the posts joking about how they were probably trying to shoehorn in some dumb way to keep this original bad idea alive, that's exactly what they went and did.

Now it's a officially a NB nerf and still a dumb idea. NBs were fine, the other classes needed some attention.

Err, what? What class was in a worse spot then NB for pvp?

The general consensus from best on worst on live is:

Stamwarden, Magsorc
MagWarden, MagDK
StamDK, Stamsorc
Templars
Nightblades

Then opinions change depending on some people who need to L2P and blame the class for their own failures. I see tons of classes and players, I don’t play a stamblade and think it’s underpowered, I say they’re terrible from seeing how they perform.

Wow. Just 100% wrong here.

The tiers are:

#1. StamBlade, MagSorc, StamDen.
#2. Everyone else.

#1. mDK (against vamps)

ilcavallo

Has there ever been a conditional skill or ultimate that gives certain targets what amounts to free CC immunity?

Just laughably bad

Sanguinor2

ilcavallo wrote: »

Has there ever been a conditional skill or ultimate that gives certain targets what amounts to free CC immunity?

Just laughably bad

Magplar with eclipse says hello.