Please nerf cloak so that everyone has fewer feel bad moments

darkblue5

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

What ticks me off is the number of people at this point who come in with two different wrong responses. 1) "Yeah nerf cloak to nerf NB! NB is overperforming!" and 2) "You just want Cloak nerfed cause you're getting ganked. L2P"

I suggest you actually read your title. Your title sets the stage and tone and that is pretty much setting things up for both type of comments.

darkblue5 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?

People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.

Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.

It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.

BTW not everyone favors Cloak as it is actually. .

If you have spent some time in the forums you would find a great deal of people do not favor a great deal of skills. Pretty much anything that challenges them in one form or another. Some worthy thoughts but much is really due to inexperience or poor play style.

Zos is reviewing all aspects of combat including cloak. Pretty sure we will see changes across the board over the next few updates and Cloak does not have any special protection. However I am pretty sure they will not remove it so those that you mention have "feel bad moments" will still have to learn to play against it or just suffer by their own choice.

Til then I will prolly only gank on medium and light armor nightblades, and maybe consider being a boring meta heavy armor bleedblade. Detect pots aren't too strong against heavy armor bleedblades in solo fights lol.

Moonsorrow

darkblue5 wrote: »

Til then I will prolly only gank on medium and light armor nightblades, and maybe consider being a boring meta heavy armor bleedblade. Detect pots aren't too strong against heavy armor bleedblades in solo fights lol.

That is sort of the class defining thing as a possible playstyle for Nighblades, as it should be. So it should not be a guilty pleasure. Enjoy it proudly.

Risk and reward. I enjoy gank attempts on me, especially at IC and so on, where i can get possibly Tel Vars from the ganker. They also have a chance of success. Makes things exciting for both.

I know i know, there are people who not enjoy dying in pvp (i always wonder why.. one cannot be immortal killing machine, can try but yeah..) but in pvp game IS combat, sometimes win and sometimes death and respawn. Some just have hard time accepting death.

Things will change eventually. I guess in a couple years all classes are the same, but with different color animations and most skills are weapon line skills, since most class skills are nerfed to oblivion by then. People then complain (already do when good vs good team/players mostly end up on stalemates ) since no one dies because of nerfed skills.

So until all the skills that kill or help at killing are nerfed, enjoy the game as it is. Then when it is too late, can only remember the good old times.

Rock, paper & scissors will be gone eventually and we all are nerfed weapon lines walking around killing no one. Atleast no one gets their ego smashed then heh.

idk

darkblue5 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

What ticks me off is the number of people at this point who come in with two different wrong responses. 1) "Yeah nerf cloak to nerf NB! NB is overperforming!" and 2) "You just want Cloak nerfed cause you're getting ganked. L2P"

I suggest you actually read your title. Your title sets the stage and tone and that is pretty much setting things up for both type of comments.

darkblue5 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?

People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.

Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.

It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.

BTW not everyone favors Cloak as it is actually. .

If you have spent some time in the forums you would find a great deal of people do not favor a great deal of skills. Pretty much anything that challenges them in one form or another. Some worthy thoughts but much is really due to inexperience or poor play style.

Zos is reviewing all aspects of combat including cloak. Pretty sure we will see changes across the board over the next few updates and Cloak does not have any special protection. However I am pretty sure they will not remove it so those that you mention have "feel bad moments" will still have to learn to play against it or just suffer by their own choice.

Til then I will prolly only gank on medium and light armor nightblades, and maybe consider being a boring meta heavy armor bleedblade. Detect pots aren't too strong against heavy armor bleedblades in solo fights lol.

This comment makes it sound like my first comments in this thread are spot on. If you work at it I expect you could become pretty good at pulling players out of cloak. Though I suggest trying more than just a detect pot since it seems you are finding their use a little challenging.

darkblue5

If I had complete control of the game I'd reduce Detect pot areas by 1-2 meters or the duration by 1-2 seconds. Light armor/medium armor nightblades are hurt a lot by detect pots if the person using it is competent. Sure a lot are not, I have no trouble with them. But sometimes you're a good player and you play against another good player. The best thing to do in that case is "not crutch on Cloak". The only build IMO that can do that is stamblade. Impenetrable armor/Protective traits or heavy stamblade at that. Magblade is just bad right now so maybe that isn't fair. I was playing magblade a lot when I made this post.

darkblue5

Just one counter is fine and workable to deal with on a stamblade. Even one counter right now is almost too much for magblade to deal with. AOE damage and detect pots vs Magblade is pretty much game over. IF your Shadow Image doesn't bug out you can escape. If your opponents are potatoes you can escape. I've still been escaping plenty well against potatoes.

But light armor magblade just doesn't have the survivability or pressure to deal with Detect Pots besides a Shadow Image to look for softer targets. Magblade just often dies snares unless you're a vampire. If you're a vampire you die to everything.

Shadow Image isn't a reliable defense (it is bugged). Cloak isn't a reliable defense (easily countered). Most of the magblades I've seen running around Cyrodiil still are 1) ganking, or 2) Akinos PVP with his heavy armor Dark Cloak build. I'm going with the only counter to detect pots magblade has which is target selection aka ganking. If you have a play style change that fixes the fact that magblade is bad in part because Cloak is bad when not supplemented with heavy armor or stamina OPness please inform me.

Machete

Why would they do that? They would rather take DK's class ability reflect away to make whining Magblades who cloak all the time more viable. Duh.

darkblue5

They wouldn't and it probably would be worse for the game overall. If I was actually suggesting selfish balance changes those are the more reasonable suggestions. If I was being very selfish I'd be advocating making nightblade essentially the only viable solo spec because it would be so overtuned to counter the fact that it is mostly useless in groups besides mag ulti-bot and maybe heals. Again I don't think that would be good for the game overall. PvP nightblade has been repeatedly nerfed these last few patches gutting magblade so I don't think that vision matches ZOS's either. I don't actually think that'd be good for PVP overall either.

So I suggest the only thing I can think of that would be easy to balance and good for the game overall. Cloak might be easier to balance if the combat code wasn't the horrid spaghetti that results in the in combat bug and forces them to suppress DoTs during Shadowy Disguise. I don't think they can balance cloak with spaghetti code like that. Whenever they've tried in the past it usually resulted in months of bugged Cloak. Since I don't think ZOS's current coders and combat team can fix the messy broken legacy code from teams that pushed ESO out like an unwanted I suggested removing Cloak.

Otherwise Shadowy Disguise does justify the current Detect pots. Currently the other counters besides AOEs and Detect Pots need buffs. It just means magblade is either going to gank, go Dark Cloak and underperform, or try to stay normal and underperform.

idk

darkblue5 wrote: »

Just one counter is fine and workable to deal with on a stamblade. Even one counter right now is almost too much for magblade to deal with.

This makes no sense. Generally players only have one counter max, outside of any AoE damage. Having multiple counters available is a great idea.

I really have no idea why you are even talking about this as it does absolutely nothing for your argument. It also does nothing for clarity of thought stemming from the OP.

Also, you are suggesting selfish balance changes. It is why it is meeting such resistance. Do not try to spin it as anything else because it is to transparent for you to be able to pull it off.

Moonsorrow

When i am on my 5p light armor Magblade, yeah - Cloak counters make things challenging, but still i enjoy it a lot (one of my favourite playstyles, playing all classes/specs) and even with Detect pots i get the benefit of the first strike most of the times, and using Shade and speed & LoS instead of Cloak when needs until can hide & strike again if things not go as planned first.

I also enjoy when on any melee spec when against Cloakers, it is part of the game, to try hunt and finish them. Feel good moments and in both sides of the situation can be enjoyable. To some searching and hunting can be annoying i guess. I like it. I like as NB to also when keep sieged or when sieging and things go wrong i like to hide and then hunt some people inside, good fun.

So many things on pvp in this game can be either enjoyable or annoying - depends on attitude and vision on how see the pvp and classes. I like there are different styles of play. Does not make things unbalanced. I see as interesting. To me its just weird when so many on forum always seem to want to not die to anything but want to kill with their favourite playstyle.

This is how forum often looks to me:

Player1: "Dizzy Swing is a real mans skill, only kills with that counts so come 1vs1 me bruh!"
Player2: "Nah, Dizzy cannot hit anyone with its targeting, should still be nerfed it hits too hard man.."
Player1: "NB should be nerfed, you only win me because of your class bruh!"
Player2: "Your face should be nerfed buddy.
Player1: "I`m not your buddy, mate."
Player2: "Nerf sorc"
Player1: "Yes them shield stackers bruh need big nerf!!"
*Player1 sends friend request to Player2*

TheBonesXXX

Sypherioth wrote: »

Are people realy complaining about cloak still?? Wtf...

Please nerf warden bomb combo because it kills me.
Please nerf snipe cause it kills me.
Please nerf total dark cause it kills me.
Please nerf bleed cause it kills me.
Please nerf spin2win cause it kills me.
Please nerf soul assault cause it kills me.
Please nerf ballista cause it kills me.
Please nerf destro staff aoe cause it kills me.
Please nerf wolf cause it kills me.

Anyone wanna add some?

Yep

Durham wrote: »

Logged on to my bow night blade Friday night ... Easily got 40 kills no deaths.. Dark cloak counters are a joke.. One roll dodge and sprint I'm gone.... or just port to my pet... Dark cloak snipe Dark cloak snipe hitting people for up to 13k I do see a ton of misses but this class is so easy to play with no hard counter at the moment... Vevic is loaded with these builds .. I'm sorry but potions are next to worthless , AOE is easy to avoid because you have tools to avoid it.... I was only in trouble 1 time out there and it was another nightblade that marked me .. but I just roll dodged and took off..

Keep in mind I almost never play this guy..

I don't think sniping casuals and pug slaying is a great measure of an ability.

TheBonesXXX

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

psychotic13

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

TheBonesXXX

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

psychotic13

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

TheBonesXXX

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

TheBonesXXX

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

darkblue5

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

How would you suggest a normal PC user gain data on Shadowy Disguise usage? It isn't like an armor set or DOT ability where you can use the game's calculations to look at how it is functioning relative to other abilities in a very objective way. It is a skill where sometimes you can't even tell if someone is hitting you by luck, by Detect Pot, or by lag.

ZOS might be able to collect data on damage incoming, single targets negated, DoT ticks suppresed, time of death after cloak usage etc. if they had infinite resources. We know they can at least look at who's got what morphs (e.g. þe olde skill rework to balance morphs) but beyond that I'm not sure what kind of data set and storage ZOS would have. Without a huge and complicated data set I'm not sure how we could quantify what is going on with Cloak.

Also I think we would need to consider Cloak in the context of the build. It does have to be a secondary defense IMO. Target selection, roll dodge, HoTs, armor rating, and impen based bulk each individually make Shadow Disguise better. Given how different the context is for Cloak between stamblades and magblades how would we evaluate it mathematically/statistically even with a sufficient data set to work with?

What's the criteria for a balanced class and build v.s. the real consideration of net game play experience? What play styles and game modes are we looking at? How do we synthesize the likely different results at different tiers of competition? If bow gank builds would be BIS in low MMR BGs would it balance out them being dead in high MMR BGs besides Ovenface?

Finally once we had that data I don't think it would help us decide what to do based on that information. Ultimately what the data would say about how Shadowy Disguise is working now doesn't inform what each member of the community wants the game to look like. It would measure what is happening now.
If the data implied that Shadowy Disguise builds overperformed in off hours and underperformed during prime time in AP gain per hour (This is totally random and not what I believe. The example could be vis versa because we don't have the data) that would have little bearing on if people would welcome a Shadowy Disguise duration nerf that included increased damage based on the number of enemies or whatever. AP gain per hour isn't even a metric that I think the majority of PvPers care the most about.

Ultimately and sadly I think there is no objective right way to balance Shadowy Disguise from a player's standpoint. There is a relatively easy metric for ZOS which is change in money gained per (unit time) based on (X time) after balance changes. I don't say that in the paranoid way that people were about ZOS selling race and name changes. However whatever results in more PvP players playing and buying long term is a much easier metric to quantify than game play quality which is totally subjective. I'm assuming if Shadowy Disguise is ever changed it would likely be based on that, hopefully instead of short term profit.

psychotic13

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

How does that make my playstyle strongest lol? Like i said i play several classes, they don't all play the same.

I used to think CP was hugely a problem, but im not so sure after people run vet trials with no CP, the gear gets better and better patch after patch, maybe thats where the problem lies. Theres so much diversity when it comes to sets theyll never be able to balance it.

idk

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

I would suggest that we do not have actual data on such things as cloak. All we have is players who are challenged with going against players with cloak and using counters which is why threads like this crop up and on the other wise we have players who are good at using cloak and more importantly good at using the counters and explain it is a player skill issue as well as choice to ignore the counters.

It is nothing more than that.

NeroBad

I remember one of the reason devs nerfed shields was because it wasn't fun to play against. I have hard time to have a fond memory about an NB who spam cloaking every 3rd second.

Interesting that they are the only class whom against we need to slot specific otherwise not good skills to have a chance to counter their invisiblity. Also cloaking is a very cheap mechanic to steal in PVE, other classes need to stack potions or be good at hide/maneuvering.

I won't be mad if they don't nerf it, but I know right now and the past year, NB is ZOS's favorite child.

darkblue5

NeroBad wrote: »

I remember one of the reason devs nerfed shields was because it wasn't fun to play against. I have hard time to have a fond memory about an NB who spam cloaking every 3rd second.

Interesting that they are the only class whom against we need to slot specific otherwise not good skills to have a chance to counter their invisiblity. Also cloaking is a very cheap mechanic to steal in PVE, other classes need to stack potions or be good at hide/maneuvering.

I won't be mad if they don't nerf it, but I know right now and the past year, NB is ZOS's favorite child.

With AOE caps removed those AOE damage abilities are at the strongest they've been in a long time. Detection Potion are still very strong. You don't need to slot a bad skill if you are running an AOE and Detect Pots. Inner Light is the strongest of the detection options on the bar. Wood elf is slightly broken with just the starting 3m Stealth Detection. There are options, but they might not make fighting NBs fun for you even when you use them.

No matter how much ZOS loves NB play style that hasn't kept them from nerfing NB in most patches over the last year. That is well and good and also doesn't prove that ZOS hates NB but it has resulted this patch in stamblades still doing well but magblades doing terribly.

Bergzorn

darkblue5 wrote: »

Inner Light is the strongest of the detection options on the bar.

Even the designated PvP morph, Radiant Magelight, is wonky.

It's useless against cloaking snipers and cloaking ranged magblades.
It's countered to a certain degree by the high mobility of stamblades.

While fine against meleeblades in the case of low server load, it behaves very strange in moderately laggy situations. It's either not revealing NBs in it's range due to bad position syncronisation or whatever , or not preventing cloak invisibility for 3 seconds.

Magelight is not useless, but it's not reliable. This is one reason why it's often frustrating to play against Cloak.

Jaxaxo

Bergzorn wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Inner Light is the strongest of the detection options on the bar.

Even the designated PvP morph, Radiant Magelight, is wonky.

It's useless against cloaking snipers and cloaking ranged magblades.
It's countered to a certain degree by the high mobility of stamblades.

While fine against meleeblades in the case of low server load, it behaves very strange in moderately laggy situations. It's either not revealing NBs in it's range due to bad position syncronisation or whatever , or not preventing cloak invisibility for 3 seconds.

Magelight is not useless, but it's not reliable. This is one reason why it's often frustrating to play against Cloak.

Hurr Durr, how dare u say cloak is good and it's frustrating to play against

HowlKimchi

darkblue5 wrote: »

Magelight is not useless, but it's not reliable. This is one reason why it's often frustrating to play against Cloak.

There's skill involved in using magelight properly, similar to how there's skill involved in utilizing cloak properly. If it worked 100% of the time just by clicking a button, then might as well give magelight a huge aoe.

TheBonesXXX

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

How does that make my playstyle strongest lol? Like i said i play several classes, they don't all play the same.

I used to think CP was hugely a problem, but im not so sure after people run vet trials with no CP, the gear gets better and better patch after patch, maybe thats where the problem lies. Theres so much diversity when it comes to sets theyll never be able to balance it.

Not you perse Psych, people on these forums come and cry for changes without any reasonable data.

I'm against that, I don't disagree with your assessment that people are bitchy. It's acing these types with some concrete data that will get the right changes. If they quit, good..

TheBonesXXX

darkblue5 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

How would you suggest a normal PC user gain data on Shadowy Disguise usage? It isn't like an armor set or DOT ability where you can use the game's calculations to look at how it is functioning relative to other abilities in a very objective way. It is a skill where sometimes you can't even tell if someone is hitting you by luck, by Detect Pot, or by lag.

ZOS might be able to collect data on damage incoming, single targets negated, DoT ticks suppresed, time of death after cloak usage etc. if they had infinite resources. We know they can at least look at who's got what morphs (e.g. þe olde skill rework to balance morphs) but beyond that I'm not sure what kind of data set and storage ZOS would have. Without a huge and complicated data set I'm not sure how we could quantify what is going on with Cloak.

Also I think we would need to consider Cloak in the context of the build. It does have to be a secondary defense IMO. Target selection, roll dodge, HoTs, armor rating, and impen based bulk each individually make Shadow Disguise better. Given how different the context is for Cloak between stamblades and magblades how would we evaluate it mathematically/statistically even with a sufficient data set to work with?

What's the criteria for a balanced class and build v.s. the real consideration of net game play experience? What play styles and game modes are we looking at? How do we synthesize the likely different results at different tiers of competition? If bow gank builds would be BIS in low MMR BGs would it balance out them being dead in high MMR BGs besides Ovenface?

Finally once we had that data I don't think it would help us decide what to do based on that information. Ultimately what the data would say about how Shadowy Disguise is working now doesn't inform what each member of the community wants the game to look like. It would measure what is happening now.
If the data implied that Shadowy Disguise builds overperformed in off hours and underperformed during prime time in AP gain per hour (This is totally random and not what I believe. The example could be vis versa because we don't have the data) that would have little bearing on if people would welcome a Shadowy Disguise duration nerf that included increased damage based on the number of enemies or whatever. AP gain per hour isn't even a metric that I think the majority of PvPers care the most about.

Ultimately and sadly I think there is no objective right way to balance Shadowy Disguise from a player's standpoint. There is a relatively easy metric for ZOS which is change in money gained per (unit time) based on (X time) after balance changes. I don't say that in the paranoid way that people were about ZOS selling race and name changes. However whatever results in more PvP players playing and buying long term is a much easier metric to quantify than game play quality which is totally subjective. I'm assuming if Shadowy Disguise is ever changed it would likely be based on that, hopefully instead of short term profit.

That's where we ask for transparency and data in their decision making. Very improbable, I'm aware but players too need to see ZOS data for comparative analysis.

TheBonesXXX

idk wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.

2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.

Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.

Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.

I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.

Gaslighting doesn't demonstrate knowledge or mechanical aptitude.

Seems like this is going to force people into different playstyles. That's not good for the health of the game.

Gaslighting? Where is the psychological manipulation lol.

I havent said other classes dont have issues, but StamNB is easy mode. I play 5 different classes with my main being StamSorc, which is rock bottom of the stamina classes. The difference is stupid.

"Majority of you are ignorant and cry when people question it."

That's apart of the process of gaslighting. The Google explanation isn't quite an explanation that is sufficient to the process. I will admit, I'm very sardonic and facetious.

Most of us play multiple classes, that's irrelevant to Cloak..

Cloak isn't broken, so much that peoples ability to think like a Nightblade lacks. Nightblades has a toolkit dedicated to misdirection. Let them get waxed if they can't be bothered.

Now, I would not disagree with the fact that Stamblades have a complete tool kit. Most classes do not.

That's a different topic.

Thats still not manipulation? Is it? What am i gaining? Its literally a fact as im sure you've seen time.and time again on these forums, people get bitchy when you tell them something is overperforming. Its almost like they feel youre saying theyre ***, which isnt the case.

Playing multiple classes is relevent, if you play several classes (at high level, dont mean making a class 2 years ago and its still only a lieutenant cause you play now and then) it gives you perspective on whats strong and whats not.

I never said cloak was broken, i believe its too reliable. And to counter that it should get the streak cost treatment, yeah misdirection should be good, but you should also have to have some skill to pull it off. Its too easy right now, honestly it wouldn't effect good nightblades that much cause it had a duration, you dont spam it. It will effect the *** ones who cant manage resources and theyll pay the price for cloaking too much, they wont be able to cloak for a few seconds.

But yeah, they have a full toolkit and dont sacrifice a thing.

Making your playstyle the strongest. That's the gain.

The problem comes that needs to be prevented is calling for nerfs without any data or demonstration. Z-Scores, bell curves, charts..

They reworked cloak because it sucked before, they already started stripping the NB kit.

I don't disagree at the strength at Stamblades, I just don't think it's just the class, but the gear and CP and design of other classes.

Level heads will prevail.

I would suggest that we do not have actual data on such things as cloak. All we have is players who are challenged with going against players with cloak and using counters which is why threads like this crop up and on the other wise we have players who are good at using cloak and more importantly good at using the counters and explain it is a player skill issue as well as choice to ignore the counters.

It is nothing more than that.

No, we don't have data on cloak. But we have data on a guaranteed crit from stealth and we can measure how powerful crit and crit damage is in this game and have the algorithm changed so it comes within a bell curve. To bring the white damage from the crit damage closer together or farther apart.

(Healing too)

A proper tuning instead of being apart of the Kneejerk Mafia.

Curtdogg47

You answered your own problem! Get counters to cloak!

darkblue5

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

You answered your own problem! Get counters to cloak!

You didn't even address the problems with Counters and Cloak brought up in the thread! Get counters to not reading!

usmcjdking

Cloak just does more than it should be doing. Suppression of DOT damage is entirely too strong which lets NBs get 2-3 seconds of uncontested heals (which is huge) while also letting them re-engage if they so choose.

Provided that the DOT functionality w/ cloak will remain in a permanently unbalanced state, the only thing that can be done is that the cloak provides an untargettable "fade-time" so it's much less jarring to deal with. The fade time should last as long as the 100% dodge window does.