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Please nerf cloak so that everyone has fewer feel bad moments
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Regardless we've heard that there is a stealth rework coming. We'll see what that looks like.Detect pots are also polarized and unbalanced. People see "darkblue5" sometimes and pop a detect pot when I'm not even on nightblade depriving themselves of a better potion for 45 seconds. Clearly it is used effectively to kill medium stamblades and light armor magblades or they wouldn't be used. I don't like the whole shebang and don't think the counters and cloak can be balanced in a way to make the encounters more interactive and interesting. You clearly do, so lets agree to disagree without insulting each other.
You seem to miss the point of balance. Cloak is a powerful skill. The counters are also very powerful but that is what makes it balanced. Considering we have multipole choices of counters for cloak it also makes it much easier to use, Must more than just a potion.
I have to agree with the previous poster, what is your source for this fairly specific information. A lot of people spew a lot of statements on behaf of Zos but never seem to provide anything to back up their comments.1 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1
Essentially I don't think there is a middle ground to be had. Maybe the upcoming stealth changes will surprise me. But this isn't a novel discussion despite what people act like. If someone has ideas for a middle ground please share them.
P.S. Clearly this is a very hot take. As long as you've actually read what I write before responding and don't harshly insult me merely because you disagree I'm glad to see any responses.
Here's the link0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p10 -
Kulvar✭✭✭✭Cloak can't be nerfed before a sneak light armor set is released.Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Literally referring to class rep update meeting notes. As I understand it they do NOT guarantee any future changes will or won't happen. They just at least let us see a little bit into the dev process and the data streams they're getting from the class reps. Still, sounds more solid than many. Unlikely to include Shadowy Disguise, but I hoped to start a community discussion ultimately about where we'd like to see Cloak at. That largely didn't happen as people mostly came in with knee jerk reactions.0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1
It may be me, but I just did a search for cloak on the OP for that class rep update and did not find a mention of it. Nothing on the first page has the word cloak.
As for the Bosmer changes, it seems more likely you are grasping at straws since I am pretty sure we still have a class with a stealth passive.
Also, they are saying, in what you typed in here, is that they plan to provide a means for everyone to get a similar stealth passive as the Bosmer had. That does not support what you stated.Edited by idk on March 27, 2019 2:49PM0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Cloak discussion in here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1
Cited it in previous post by me.
I recognized likely a Cloak changes or a counter change wouldn't be coming soon. That's why I wanted a discussion when there is a discussion of dealing with a related mechanic.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cloak discussion in here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1
Cited it in previous post by me.
I recognized likely a Cloak changes or a counter change wouldn't be coming soon. That's why I wanted a discussion when there is a discussion of dealing with a related mechanic.
Wow, 9 months ago. And why did you not post this first instead of that irrelevant information?
You are still playing the wrong game if you do not like strong skills and strong counterplay.Edited by idk on March 27, 2019 2:59PM0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Cloak discussion in here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1
Cited it in previous post by me.
I recognized likely a Cloak changes or a counter change wouldn't be coming soon. That's why I wanted a discussion when there is a discussion of dealing with a related mechanic.
Wow, 9 months ago.
You are still playing the wrong game if you do not like strong skills and strong counterplay.
The game has drastically changed in what almost 5 years live. It certainly isn't the game I started playing at launch. Ty for a more reasonable series of disagreements. There were many ways the game could have developed. There are many ways it may develop. We can certainly survive having reasonable disagreements about what the game can and should be.0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotic13 wrote: »Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.
2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.
Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.
Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.
I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.
Do players actually think stamblades are OP or do we just find them annoying. In my opinion to say a class is OP means that they are better than the other classes and I'm not so sure that's the case with stamblades. I believe a couple classes like magsorc, and stamina Warden are flat out better. Even 1v1 I feel like magden and mag dk are stronger as well as some other classes. This is leading me to believe that we are complaining about stamblades not because they are op but because they are just annoying.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cloak discussion in here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1
Cited it in previous post by me.
I recognized likely a Cloak changes or a counter change wouldn't be coming soon. That's why I wanted a discussion when there is a discussion of dealing with a related mechanic.
Wow, 9 months ago.
You are still playing the wrong game if you do not like strong skills and strong counterplay.
The game has drastically changed in what almost 5 years live. It certainly isn't the game I started playing at launch. Ty for a more reasonable series of disagreements. There were many ways the game could have developed. There are many ways it may develop. We can certainly survive having reasonable disagreements about what the game can and should be.
My disagreements in this thread were never unreasonable. I have merely stated facts about the game.2 -
psychotic13✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »psychotic13 wrote: »Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.
2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.
Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.
Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.
I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.
Do players actually think stamblades are OP or do we just find them annoying. In my opinion to say a class is OP means that they are better than the other classes and I'm not so sure that's the case with stamblades. I believe a couple classes like magsorc, and stamina Warden are flat out better. Even 1v1 I feel like magden and mag dk are stronger as well as some other classes. This is leading me to believe that we are complaining about stamblades not because they are op but because they are just annoying.
People know they're op, thats why we play it.
1v1 its the best in the game there is no comparison. MagDK is alright, mainly due to fossilize and using proc sets as a crutch (overwhelming/grothdar/skoria) but open world theyre not great. Magden is trash 1v1, dont stand infront to be hit by shalks he aint going to kill you. Magden in group play is top tier though.
As for MagSorc and Stamden, Magsorc is super tanky right now cause of the shield buff, but an average stamblade can beat a good sorc. Stamden, again also top tier for groups.
Stamblade is so strong because they can reset combat at will, without being taxed for it (needs streak treatment) and is overloaded with buffs and debuffs.
incap deals high damage, gives 20% damage for 6 seconds, major defile and stuns. The cost isnt the problem, it should be cheap as it's single target. You get major fracture off your spammable, major ward and major resolve passively from casting your spammable or another shadow ability. Freeing bar space to because every other class has to slot a skill for the ward and resolve buffs.
Minor berserk, 1 of the 2 out of the 5 classes who have access to that buff. They also have minor endurance from relentless focus, again 1 of the 2 out of the 5 classes who have access to that buff. Minor Savagery passively.
They also get 2 sources of minor maim, from fear and shadow image. Plus 3% max health for slotting each shadow ability. Major vitality from backbar healing ulti from siphoning tree.
Because all the utility is already attached to the abilitys youre going to use anyway, you dont have to sacrifice anything, all that ontop of already decent skills in surprise attack, relentless focus, incap, fear, shadow image and cloak is what makes them overpowered.
Edited by psychotic13 on March 27, 2019 5:13PM0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotic13 wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »psychotic13 wrote: »Any good player knows its overpowered thats why its abused. Best stamNBs on my server say the same thing. Majority of you are just ignorant and cry when people question it.
2 changes make NB balanced imo.
Cloak gets the streak treatment, now this isnt as bad as people first think as cloak isnt spammed like streak, it has a duration.
Take one of the effects from incap its too overloaded, keep the 20% damage buff and either lose the stun or defile.
Otherclasses obviously have there own issues too.
I do believe magblade should be compensated in someway through, its the stamNB that is over performing.
Do players actually think stamblades are OP or do we just find them annoying. In my opinion to say a class is OP means that they are better than the other classes and I'm not so sure that's the case with stamblades. I believe a couple classes like magsorc, and stamina Warden are flat out better. Even 1v1 I feel like magden and mag dk are stronger as well as some other classes. This is leading me to believe that we are complaining about stamblades not because they are op but because they are just annoying.
People know they're op, thats why we play it.
1v1 its the best in the game there is no comparison. MagDK is alright, mainly due to fossilize and using proc sets as a crutch (overwhelming/grothdar/skoria) but open world theyre not great. Magden is trash 1v1, dont stand infront to be hit by shalks he aint going to kill you. Magden in group play is top tier though.
As for MagSorc and Stamden, Magsorc is super tanky right now cause of the shield buff, but an average stamblade can beat a good sorc. Stamden, again also top tier for groups.
Stamblade is so strong because they can reset combat at will, without being taxed for it (needs streak treatment) and is overloaded with buffs and debuffs.
incap deals high damage, gives 20% damage for 6 seconds, major defile and stuns. The cost isnt the problem, it should be cheap as it's single target. You get major fracture off your spammable, major ward and major resolve passively from casting your spammable or another shadow ability. Freeing bar space to because every other class has to slot a skill for the ward and resolve buffs.
Minor berserk, 1 of the 2 out of the 5 classes who have access to that buff. They also have minor endurance from relentless focus, again 1 of the 2 out of the 5 classes who have access to that buff. Minor Savagery passively.
They also get 2 sources of minor maim, from fear and shadow image. Plus 3% max health for slotting each shadow ability. Major vitality from backbar healing ulti from siphoning tree.
Because all the utility is already attached to the abilitys youre going to use anyway, you dont have to sacrifice anything, all that ontop of already decent skills in surprise attack, relentless focus, incap, fear, shadow image and cloak is what makes them overpowered.
Mag Warden is no where near trash 1v1 and it's alot more difficult to move away from bugs on a mag Warden than it is for a Stam Warden because of shock clench and or permafrost making combing bugs easier. I would bet a mag Warden would win a 1v1 tournament before I would think a stamblade would. Really I would put almost all magicka classes over stamblade in a 1v1 because magicka overall is stronger in 1v1 combat. Stamblade is no exception.
Resetting the fight is what make stamblade good for 1vX. Because Xv1ers are overly aggressive and don't pay attention to there sustain or buffs. So you can usually reset against them and hot them hard when they are low on regen or their buffs aren't active. When you fight against a Good duelist or someone good at 1v1 resetting the fight will only make the fight end in a stalemate because you are also giving your opponent a chance to reset and maintain all their buffs and healing. You also aren't going to oneshot a good player from stealth. So cloak ends up becoming more of an annoyance than anything else and it makes 1v1 fights stupid when they are abusing it every other attack. The fight will always end in a draw.
I'm in no way saying stamblade is bad I'm just saying it's no where near as strong as the forums make it out to be. Honestly you rarely see stamblades dueling at all. Most of the dueling spots are full of pet sorcs and magdens. Stamblades strength lies in 1vX because it can pick on weaker opponents and easily escape better players1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
You seem to be under the assumption that we aren't agreeing with you because we dont comprehend your points.
(1)We get it. We are not illiterate.
(2)I disagree because your suggestions suck.1 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭
You're one of the few who read. A lot of people disagree with my position but also haven't read what I said and misunderstand my position. Especially those coming in at the end of the long thread aren't reading. The whole first 15? responses even were full of people who didn't read and people commenting on those people not reading. So while they may not be illiterate people not reading long things has been a consistent problem. Guess I've learned not to post long hot takes.0 -
Svidrir✭✭✭
There should be the same thing as on the sorcerer strike, a cost increase if cast quicklyUlaan Baator sorcier bdsm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
Just because you disagree with many responses (because they do not agree with you) doesn’t mean they disagree.
The title sets the mood very clearly for starters. After reading the OP and clearly out the smoke and distraction we see the reasoning. That many are challenged or refuse to learn to play against an NB so nerf them to make it easier to play against them.
It’s irrelevant that you suggest something else to replace the skill because that has nothing to do with your underlying reasoning.2 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.
Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.
It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.
Edited by Moonsorrow on March 31, 2019 8:43AM3 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.
Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.
It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.
Ah, I'm sorry that I forgot that "reading" and "understanding" which are required to leave "even marginally related comments" only includes reading the title of the thread. Feel free to cite a post by me justifying your characterization of my beliefs. Your "close reading" of the title doesn't support your contention that I expect for people to agree with me or be happy.
BTW not everyone favors Cloak as it is actually. If you read the thread there is substantial support for some changes to Cloak, Cloak Counters, and or both. Some of those opinions are more biased than others but actually Shadowy Disguise is a divisive skill and acting like it isn't is dishonest.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »
This sums up very clearly how OP is devolving the thread suggesting those who disagree with him either did not read or are challenged understanding what he said. It is a poor direction to bring the conversation when one has problems with their idea not being accepted.2 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.
Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.
It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.
BTW not everyone favors Cloak as it is actually.
I did not say everyone favors Cloak as it is, if you read my answer again, i specifically said "a LOT of people" like skills as they are now. Not doing the same mistake as you did.
Again, you will not make "everyone" happy with nerfs, no matter what you would give/buff then instead of it. People like their current playstyles, be it Thieves guild thief acitivities with using Cloak or anything else. Still you insist explaining it to me (and others) we would change our opinion about it just because YOU seem personally wanting to have changes.
You speak for yourself and yeah you have an opinion. And i respectfully do not agree at all.
I like Cloak and other class defining skills, using them gives me feel good moments right now. Do not need anyone taking them away from me or others that enjoy them, thank you very much.
Nothing dishonest enjoying the game right now as it is.
Or are you really saying that your opinion is more important somehow? If so, why?
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darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭didnt bother even reading all this
if anything cloak needs a buff, 3 secs is pathetic. you cant even bar swap in lag that fast.
This is the kinda stuff was going on this whole thread.
idk is a special case. Man, I had to cite a Class Rep discussion where I pulled out a quote 3 times. Three separate posts. Because after the first 2 times idk said they didn't see where that quote came from. idk then suggested I was making it up in bad faith because idk didn't read. That's just the latest in 5 pages of not reading m8y.0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭What ticks me off is the number of people at this point who come in with two different wrong responses. 1) "Yeah nerf cloak to nerf NB! NB is overperforming!" and 2) "You just want Cloak nerfed cause you're getting ganked. L2P"
Lots of people over the thread explained why they disagreed with me and what they'd like Shadowy Disguise gameplay to look like in PvP. Those have all been valuable responses I've read and paid attention to. A majority of those posts didn't agree with me on the solution. I don't see why that inherently is an indictment of me making this post at all. If this post was 5 pages of that it'd be a good thread. Even if zero people agreed with me. What I don't like is the tendency to attack me personally while disagreeing with me, and at the same time mischaracterizing my points.
And yeah Moonsorrow that was a bit of a low troll for me to mischaracterize your point that people like Cloak as everyone does. I'm just tired of this thread. I want it closed.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What ticks me off is the number of people at this point who come in with two different wrong responses. 1) "Yeah nerf cloak to nerf NB! NB is overperforming!" and 2) "You just want Cloak nerfed cause you're getting ganked. L2P"
I suggest you actually read your title. Your title sets the stage and tone and that is pretty much setting things up for both type of comments.
BTW not everyone favors Cloak as it is actually. .Moonsorrow wrote: »No one reads. Can this thread be closed because no one reads?
People do read. You just seem to expect that after reading all should agree with you.
Using the word "everyone" in the topic is always a mistake anyways... trust me, a LOT of people like skills as they are now without any changes to use on whatever playstyle they want. And you make a statement that nerfing Cloak makes "everyone" happy.
It does not. Suprisingly many like class skills that still are part of the class identity. And you want to take that away even while saying everyone would be happy? You should not wonder why you get such answers. And no, people do not want something instead of Cloak, they like and want Cloak as it is. Simple.
If you have spent some time in the forums you would find a great deal of people do not favor a great deal of skills. Pretty much anything that challenges them in one form or another. Some worthy thoughts but much is really due to inexperience or poor play style.
Zos is reviewing all aspects of combat including cloak. Pretty sure we will see changes across the board over the next few updates and Cloak does not have any special protection. However I am pretty sure they will not remove it so those that you mention have "feel bad moments" will still have to learn to play against it or just suffer by their own choice.
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