Please nerf cloak so that everyone has fewer feel bad moments

idk

darkblue5 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Slot one of the various AoEs that tear NBs up in Cloak.

If that doesn't work return here and write an "I quit" thread.

Read much?

It is still the correct answer. OP is doing nothing more than making an excuse for not using one. An excuse is a lame reason for nerfing a skill. Totally without logic.

So "read much" is rather pointless.

Are we talking about the same post? I read is as they want the, in their eyes, rather unrelianble and thus weak Cloak to be replaced by a viable defense mechanism.

My comment was pointless, I just got triggered a bit by the standard Cloak nerf request response, not even sure why.

Seems you did not read the entire OP.

OP makes it clear they are in the camp that does not use a counter to cloak which is why the opened up using that excuse and making a bold, yet very much unverified claim that most of the game refuses to use a counter.

That is their main point, making it clear where OP stands. The rest is filler and fluff in an attempt to make it look like they are thinking of the big picture, but clearly from a player who does not main an NB.

n the end, OP is merely part of the crew that refuses to use a counter to cloak and wants the game nerfed to their playstyle instead of improving theirs to the level of the game.

It really is that simple.

I main nb
Edit: If you read you'd see I run detect pots.

Then you would know that there is not an issue with cloak. Especially if you use the detect pots properly.

The counters work great. The argument that a number of players refuse to use the detect pots is irrelevant, though the numbers you claim are questionable as I doubt you can back those numbers up. But that is a different story.

Iskiab

Kulvar wrote: »

Healers right now are totally op when they run into people without any Major Defile (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil)

Crit Damage right now are totally op when they run into people without enough Crit Resistance (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil)

Resistance right now are totally op when they run into people without enough Penetration (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil)

Major defile matters but not that much tbh. If 3-4 people are beating on someone you can’t keep them up either way without a peel.

That’s where aggressive team mates come in. If you have team mates who leave the person being focused in the lurch then the focused person will die and the healer’s next. If a single team mate throws an aoe cc it will save the person.

Most people just need enough mitigation (combining crit resists and armour) to survive a burst when they’re cc’d. Once you have that it’s mostly tactics where pvpers fail.

Datthaw

Xvorg wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Cloak isn't main concern. NB's have a lot of debuffs and CCs provided by class skills that none of other classes have.

What? What does NB have besides fear on one ability?

just the best ulti which increase dmg of the comming attacks and Major defile on top of that. Cloak is not the problem, incap is too good.

Besides that, well, Cripple is an inmo + snare, Veiled Strike has a stun from invis, Lotus apply a snare, Mark Target gives you major breach and major fracture and shades give minor maim

No, no, no, no, no best ulti hands down in the game is dbos. It just is. Even stamnb run it when not ganking, and alot of gank builds are now running 2h ult... so no, just... no.

Noctus

if u nerf cloak u gotta buff magnb hardcore on all aspects.

magblades are currently allready in a bad spot and a cloak nerf which is their only defense would be the nail in the coffin.

darkblue5

Noctus wrote: »

if u nerf cloak u gotta buff magnb hardcore on all aspects.

magblades are currently allready in a bad spot and a cloak nerf which is their only defense would be the nail in the coffin.

Exactly what I think needs to happen. Cloak needs to be either very carefully balanced which I don't think is actually possible or it needs to be put out of its misery. I've given up on any reasonable idea to balance it and think it should be put out of its misery. Part of the reason Magblade is terrible open world are the overperforming Cloak counters and the lack of any other strength for the spec. I love cloak gameplay, and most of my favorite fights have been nightblade vs nightblade with neither side having more than one NB counter up.

But yes magblades are the best example of how you can neither crutch on cloak nor build without it. The nightblade class doesn't give you the tools to not crutch on cloak. Stamina heavy sets give you the tools sure but that's neither here nor there. Whenever cloak doesn't work on solo magblade you're pretty much a worse version of every other magicka class. You have the super telegraphed burst of magsorcs without the pressure, the damage of magplars without the survivability etc.

So nerf cloak so that magblade and stamblade can be buffed in a way that is consistent from fight to fight. Kill the play style that got me to like PvP, and is perhaps my favorite play style in ESO. It deserves a real death not a slow decline. ZOS already has stated that they're examining the swinginess of Cloak vs counter gameplay. I have faith in their ability to buff Nightblades in other respects, and I am nearly certain there is no way to balance cloak.

idk

Noctus wrote: »

if u nerf cloak u gotta buff magnb hardcore on all aspects.

magblades are currently allready in a bad spot and a cloak nerf which is their only defense would be the nail in the coffin.

OP is trying to force this to happen and is basing it on fake statistics and the excuse some players make that they choose to not use the counters.

Poor reasoning and lack of logic is not a good justification for a nerf. Lack of logic because it is a slippery slope of bad judgement to nerf a skill, hence a game. to the play level of some people just because they refuse to rise to the occasion. That is OP's reasoning for this.

Strider__Roshin

100% agree!

Nightblades have awful survivability without Cloak, but with it it's borderline OP, but as stated in the OP Nightblades are free AP if you slot a cloak counter. The polarity makes the class annoying for both Nightblades and non-Nightblades because of this.

My suggestion is to massively increase the duration of Cloak (15-20 seconds), but give it a huge cast time that requires you to remain stationary. This will make it an ability that will still slow you too skip past adds, and set-up attacks/ganks, but will prevent the instant-invisibility mechanic that we see currently.

I would also like the Dark Cloak morph to have a huge duration buff for the minor protection, a heal% buff, but make it so it can no longer crit.

And while we're at it remove the assassination passive and replace it with something that doesn't buff gankers.

olsborg

I am for nerf to cloak.

Kulvar

@Daus
You don't provide any suggestion on how to make Nightblade survive the cloak change.

Instead of a 15-20s buff, why not make cloak a toggle ability with a 1.5s cast time ?

Qwazzy

Give it the streak treatment.

Strider__Roshin

Kulvar wrote: »

@Daus
You don't provide any suggestion on how to make Nightblade survive the cloak change.

Instead of a 15-20s buff, why not make cloak a toggle ability with a 1.5s cast time ?

Did you read my Dark Cloak suggestion? (Heal/non-invisibility morph)

Also we could ditch the assassination passive entirely and make it so it benefits survivability. How about we make it so inflicting damage via an assassination ability inflicts minor life steal for 6 seconds?

This would fall in line with the aggressive nature of the Nightblade, and would be a nerf for gankers since the damage bonus will be gone.

NoBull

Columbine, corn flower, wormwood
Immovability magic detection
Hate nightblade potion!

idk

Daus wrote: »

100% agree!

Nightblades have awful survivability without Cloak, but with it it's borderline OP, but as stated in the OP Nightblades are free AP if you slot a cloak counter. The polarity makes the class annoying for both Nightblades and non-Nightblades because of this.

My suggestion is to massively increase the duration of Cloak (15-20 seconds), but give it a huge cast time that requires you to remain stationary. This will make it an ability that will still slow you too skip past adds, and set-up attacks/ganks, but will prevent the instant-invisibility mechanic that we see currently.

I would also like the Dark Cloak morph to have a huge duration buff for the minor protection, a heal% buff, but make it so it can no longer crit.

And while we're at it remove the assassination passive and replace it with something that doesn't buff gankers.

It is not OP for those who bother to use the counters to cloak.

HowlKimchi

darkblue5 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

if u nerf cloak u gotta buff magnb hardcore on all aspects.

magblades are currently allready in a bad spot and a cloak nerf which is their only defense would be the nail in the coffin.

...
Cloak needs to be either very carefully balanced which I don't think is actually possible or it needs to be put out of its misery. I've given up on any reasonable idea to balance it and think it should be put out of its misery.

...

So nerf cloak so that magblade and stamblade can be buffed in a way that is consistent from fight to fight. Kill the play style that got me to like PvP, and is perhaps my favorite play style in ESO. It deserves a real death not a slow decline.

God your point of view is annoying. If you remove cloak, then it isn't a mageblade anymore. Sure there are NB builds that dont use cloak. But *we* do. I enjoy the playstyle and that's why I main the class. I'm not a cloak spammer either. I can fight and roll with the punches.

Sure mageblade has trouble with snares right now and needs help in that regard, but removing cloak so NBs can have a better defense? That's stupid. We aren't *supposed* to be as tanky as DKs or Templars or Warden's. What we're *supposed* to be is the slippery class that's tricky to lockdown and has a lethal burst. Now that's pretty hard to do right now because of all the snares and all and that's the area we need help on. But in balancing the class, the essence of the class should stay the same! What you are suggesting isn't "rebalancing a class" it's "changing a class" altogether.

WuffyCerulei

Wanting to nerf Cloak because you just don't want to actually get good... As much as I hate nightblades in pvp, it's not hard to counter them. Sorc? Throw haunting curse on them. It brings them out of stealth. Templar? Unstable Core will do the same. As will any aoe. Or just have inner/radiant light. It legit is not hard to counter NBs. You also have to know to counter other classes/skills as well. You can't run into pvp and expect to not have to counter other players. That's not how things work.

dazee

Cloak should probably use a percentage of max Magicka rather than a static cost.

darkblue5

"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1

Essentially I don't think there is a middle ground to be had. Maybe the upcoming stealth changes will surprise me. But this isn't a novel discussion despite what people act like. If someone has ideas for a middle ground please share them.

P.S. Clearly this is a very hot take. As long as you've actually read what I write before responding and don't harshly insult me merely because you disagree I'm glad to see any responses.

idk

darkblue5 wrote: »

"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."

No it is not. You claim to play a NB and use a counter to cloak. If that is truly the case you know this statement if false in total.

In the hands of a skilled player going against an unskilled player it is correct in both directions. But that is the case with pretty much everything in the game. With your philosophy of nerfing skills because unskilled players find it challenging then we will end up with a very boring and overly simplistic game. Very poor logic.

Moonsorrow

And here we go again..

People keep asking to nerf things without thinking how it would affect other playstyles..

so less "feeling bad moments for everyone" huh?

How about people doing Thieving & murdering at cities in pve land? I mean, it is one thing i enjoy at pve and i like cloaking around and escaping from Guards after random acts of violence and chaos.

And you would nerf/destroy Cloak?

Thanks a lot. You would make me feel bad. Where would be MY less feel bad moments?

Noctus

Daus wrote: »

Kulvar wrote: »

@Daus
You don't provide any suggestion on how to make Nightblade survive the cloak change.

Instead of a 15-20s buff, why not make cloak a toggle ability with a 1.5s cast time ?

Did you read my Dark Cloak suggestion? (Heal/non-invisibility morph)

Also we could ditch the assassination passive entirely and make it so it benefits survivability. How about we make it so inflicting damage via an assassination ability inflicts minor life steal for 6 seconds?

This would fall in line with the aggressive nature of the Nightblade, and would be a nerf for gankers since the damage bonus will be gone.

u can kill of cloak only if u make all magblade attacks ignore reflects and we have a deal. i need cloak to get away from dk reflect and sorc pet ***. ur taking the ONE thing away with which we can allready only barely hold ourselfs above water nowadays.i get that stamblades might be too effective with cloak but magblades are absolutely screwed becouse they dont even have that much of a burst compared to the other classes like sorc and stamblade.

Metemsycosis

Yes I main nightblades.

My opinion: if you are already invisible, it should cost more to stay invisible. But if your cloak is broken or you let the cloak expire, recasting costs the original amount.

Now mageblades have more to build for to keep up cloak and

Stamblades will have more of challenge to sit in cloak till they're at full health again.

Both can continue using the 100% critical modifier

Moonsorrow

Also, i`m amazed that people want to destroy the last class defining skills that are left anymore. So many fun and good skills been taken away from class & other skill lines during the years, yet it just does not stop until i guess all classes are the same.

Sadly, i have a feeling ZOS will destroy Cloak when Elsweyr comes, because of too many crybabies at pvp currently. Not so many these days have big boy pants, but all act always like a soccer players when someone touches them, crying on the ground and holding their injured ego.. i mean leg and looking at the judge (zos) to nerf all enemies.

Just leave class defining skills alone already people and stop asking for nerfs that also affect pve side of things. Remember, people like to do Thieves guild & Dark Brotherhood DLC too and so on. But i guess selfishness and entitlement is too strong these days.

brandonv516

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Yes I main nightblades.

My opinion: if you are already invisible, it should cost more to stay invisible. But if your cloak is broken or you let the cloak expire, recasting costs the original amount.

Now mageblades have more to build for to keep up cloak and

Stamblades will have more of challenge to sit in cloak till they're at full health again.

Both can continue using the 100% critical modifier

Makes no sense though. So if I want to refresh Cloak while I'm already in it, you want it to cost more? You're already penalized for spamming it.

Apply that same logic to anything else (Major Expedition, Purge, Shields, etc.) and explain why the suggestion above is fair and this is not.

darkblue5

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."

No it is not. You claim to play a NB and use a counter to cloak. If that is truly the case you know this statement if false in total.

In the hands of a skilled player going against an unskilled player it is correct in both directions. But that is the case with pretty much everything in the game. With your philosophy of nerfing skills because unskilled players find it challenging then we will end up with a very boring and overly simplistic game. Very poor logic.

Literally from my Original Post
"Cloak counters are easy AP even on nightblades, I've killed much better players than me by slotting a stealth detect pot. They're even more effective on my stamsorc and my magsorc as I have AOE damage/armor buffs to supplement. Gank builds don't even let you kill people much worse than you, and cloak counters let you kill people much better."

Cloak doesn't inherently support the better player winning. Lots of better players than me on these forums have hated cloak for letting worse players kill them without them running specific potions and abilities. Or when they die as their potion is down. Sure they and their 9 friends will spend 10 minutes chasing that stamblade down after the rez but they still hate it.

Neither Dark Cloak nor Detect Potions are famous for having a low floor and a high ceiling based on the player's skills. Cloak has a low floor and a high ceiling based on the counters the opponent is running, while detect pots have a high floor and ceiling against nightblades at the cost of a potion cooldown.

Now against people on my stamblade I can often escape if they have detect pots AOES etc but that is rather the strength of the stamina spec. Partially also due to the way that dodge rolls synergize with cloak. I'm not going to pretend that on the balance stamina nightblade is a bad solo spec because it still is probably the best solo spec in open world Cyrodiil. Magblade is what reveals the fundamental issues with balancing cloak. Very good or actually worse than not casting a skill as it drains magicka for no effect.

Please recognize that reasonable people can disagree. In this case I'm not sure what you're for. I'm not sure if you like the current situation? Given that you suggest everyone just slot counters and that solves their problems with cloak I wonder if you expect people to enjoy playing with cloak while it is countered? Do you just enjoy playing against Cloak counters? That's only sorta fun the first few times on a stamblade, and then you realize it also come down to the number of dodge roll counters which are whole other can of worms. Magblade tries Undo which fails to cast right, then Shade which fails to cast right, and then dies.

dazee

To explain my earlier post, if cloak cost a % of your max magicka, it would be a buff to Stamblades who couldn't spam it anyway, and a nerf to Magblades who probably need it due to being able to stay stealthed pretty much forever. it would no longer be OP on the builds it was OP on without ruining it for those other builds.

Koensol

Datthaw wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Cloak isn't main concern. NB's have a lot of debuffs and CCs provided by class skills that none of other classes have.

What? What does NB have besides fear on one ability?

just the best ulti which increase dmg of the comming attacks and Major defile on top of that. Cloak is not the problem, incap is too good.

Besides that, well, Cripple is an inmo + snare, Veiled Strike has a stun from invis, Lotus apply a snare, Mark Target gives you major breach and major fracture and shades give minor maim

No, no, no, no, no best ulti hands down in the game is dbos. It just is. Even stamnb run it when not ganking, and alot of gank builds are now running 2h ult... so no, just... no.

Stop being so biased... I play nb as well and it is quite easy to see incap is a broken af skill. Especially playing other classes more intensively made me realize this. If you are in combat and fighting people in like a brawl, or where you are retreating while being attacked, only 1 incap will mean almost certain death. The leverage it creates with the dmg boost and defile on top of its burst dmg which is barely dodgable these days is waaay too strong for such a cheap ultimate.

Also the only reason everyone and their mother runs dbos is because it is the only good choice most stam builds have in terms of viable ults. Only stamblade and stamdk have good alternatives. 2h ult is either gank material or 1v1 duel cheese.

idk

darkblue5 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."

No it is not. You claim to play a NB and use a counter to cloak. If that is truly the case you know this statement if false in total.

In the hands of a skilled player going against an unskilled player it is correct in both directions. But that is the case with pretty much everything in the game. With your philosophy of nerfing skills because unskilled players find it challenging then we will end up with a very boring and overly simplistic game. Very poor logic.

Literally from my Original Post
"Cloak counters are easy AP even on nightblades, I've killed much better players than me by slotting a stealth detect pot. They're even more effective on my stamsorc and my magsorc as I have AOE damage/armor buffs to supplement. Gank builds don't even let you kill people much worse than you, and cloak counters let you kill people much better."

You really need to read your post again since you are clearly ignoring your opening remarks and basis for your call for a nerf that am referring to. It is literally your first sentence so I find it hard to believe you overlook it so easily. You make it about cloak counters, though your data is fabricated and seemingly false

darkblue5 wrote: »

Nightblades right now are totally op when they run into people without any cloak counters (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil) and marginal to terrible against anyone even near someone with cloak counters (75% of Cyrodiil). .

I have placed it here to help you.

Further, with what I edited out of your most recent comment, I really do doubt you have good experience using cloak counters. Especially since you are very limited with what you mention. No offense, but I think the entire OP is just another nerf cloak because it challenges me so much. It does seem clear gankers challenge you a great deal. Odd how I do not find them challenging. I like to hunt and kill them.

Digiman

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Nightblades right now are totally op when they run into people without any cloak counters (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil).

Not only is that a dangerous because the next step is we will nerf one of your skills just because we do not fell like doing whatever we need to do to mitigate or avoid the damage from it.

I love this because it was the same argument said about sorc shields and they nerfed those.... guess ZoS they are already planning it for elyswer lol

TheBonesXXX

Datthaw wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Cloak isn't main concern. NB's have a lot of debuffs and CCs provided by class skills that none of other classes have.

What? What does NB have besides fear on one ability?

just the best ulti which increase dmg of the comming attacks and Major defile on top of that. Cloak is not the problem, incap is too good.

Besides that, well, Cripple is an inmo + snare, Veiled Strike has a stun from invis, Lotus apply a snare, Mark Target gives you major breach and major fracture and shades give minor maim

No, no, no, no, no best ulti hands down in the game is dbos. It just is. Even stamnb run it when not ganking, and alot of gank builds are now running 2h ult... so no, just... no.

2h Ulti is the best single target in the game. 8 seconds cc, snare, immobilized immunity and an attack the ignores resistances is amazing.

DBOS best for cleave/cone damage imo.

TheBonesXXX

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

"The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground."

No it is not. You claim to play a NB and use a counter to cloak. If that is truly the case you know this statement if false in total.

In the hands of a skilled player going against an unskilled player it is correct in both directions. But that is the case with pretty much everything in the game. With your philosophy of nerfing skills because unskilled players find it challenging then we will end up with a very boring and overly simplistic game. Very poor logic.

Literally from my Original Post
"Cloak counters are easy AP even on nightblades, I've killed much better players than me by slotting a stealth detect pot. They're even more effective on my stamsorc and my magsorc as I have AOE damage/armor buffs to supplement. Gank builds don't even let you kill people much worse than you, and cloak counters let you kill people much better."

You really need to read your post again since you are clearly ignoring your opening remarks and basis for your call for a nerf that am referring to. It is literally your first sentence so I find it hard to believe you overlook it so easily. You make it about cloak counters, though your data is fabricated and seemingly false

darkblue5 wrote: »

Nightblades right now are totally op when they run into people without any cloak counters (roughly 25% of Cyrodiil) and marginal to terrible against anyone even near someone with cloak counters (75% of Cyrodiil). .

I have placed it here to help you.

Further, with what I edited out of your most recent comment, I really do doubt you have good experience using cloak counters. Especially since you are very limited with what you mention. No offense, but I think the entire OP is just another nerf cloak because it challenges me so much. It does seem clear gankers challenge you a great deal. Odd how I do not find them challenging. I like to hunt and kill them.

People are lazy, best way to counter a class is to play it first.