PLEASE HELP MAGBLADE!

fred4

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Let me illustrate just how weak a melee magblade is without procs. First, here is the absolutely ideal outcome of me ganking Warriorbest, a stamblade ganker. He must have been AFK (while standing on a flag in IC). This was with a Zaan proc and a Caluurion fire proc, the strongest:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/527306746709147649/542194405118050314/Warriorbest2.png

Note how weak the 2H light attacks are against a medium armor stamblade. 500. By contrast Warriorbest hits me with up to 3K light attacks when they crit.

Secondly note the pitiful Incap Strike and Concealed Weapon at 3K and 2.4K respectively, albeit non-crit.

Now, for contrast, take this gank by a stamblade, named Frongort, on me:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/527306746709147649/542194564480630794/Frongort.png

This is the infamous Lethal Arrow / Incap combo at point blank range, where you actually cast Lethal Arrow first. We have:

Crit Incap for 10.5K, obliterating my shield and then some.
9K non-crit Lethal Arrow within the same GCD.
3K crit light attack.
13.7K Killer's Blade, while he had been hit by my shade, e.g. he was debuffed with Minor Maim at that point.

He killed me within 2 GCDs with a stun on the first GCD, meaning there was zero counterplay. These are extreme, best case scenarios for the respective players. You can really only pull that Lethal Arrow move on a player standing still while turning a resource and I bet he had Balorgh fully charged. Still, please take this as an illustration of how much more damage stamblades can do with their abilities. When I said 2x to 3x I was not kidding.

You may argue that me being a proc spec, my skills just don't do a lot of damage. That is true, however there is the pesky issue that light attack damage is so poor on a 2H melee magblade and that, IMO, Incap is the superior PvP ult, but a stamina one. And I'd honestly challenge anyone to match the insane upfront damage numbers of that second gank with a magblade.

No offense, but you can’t not wear a defensive set and complain about burst. In higher MMR BGs stamblades are a bit of a joke. If you add a defensive set and 1-2 protective traits it takes 2 to kill me, or for one to jump me at half health.

Choosing speed over defense has a lot of benefits, it’s just personal survivability and being vulnerable to burst damage is the downside that goes along with it.

Myself I like balance and am trying to figure out the sweet spot between speed, defense and offense.

That post was not meant as a complaint. The main point I wanted everyone to take away is that speccing into stats works for melee stamblades and their skills do a lot more damage than a 2H melee magblade's skills. When you factor in the importance of light attacks, I don't think a 2H melee magblade can ever get close with a pure stat-based build. Now consider what you've just said: Stamblades are a bit of a joke in your experience. True. Because against tanky or experienced enough players no amount of burst works and many nightblades focus on squishy targets. However that makes a 2H melee magblade even more of a joke, because their raw damage, absent proc sets, is even worse. That's the point I wanted to make.

Of course, if you have already played your build and it works for you, great. If you want to try it anyway, great too. Certainly the destro could be an advantage, if you want to go for more of a mixed ranged / melee playstyle. You did ask for opinions, though. My comments were merely as to whether I think your build will work as a 2H melee build. Certainly it will be more defensive than mine, better able to brawl, but I think your offense will be comparatively weak on the melee bar.

ScruffyWhiskers

I've got a bad bad feeling that mag blades in general are going to be punished for the sins of their stam blade brothers. I hope that I am wrong.

fred4

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

I've got a bad bad feeling that mag blades in general are going to be punished for the sins of their stam blade brothers. I hope that I am wrong.

That's what it looks like. Magblades tend to rely on Assassin's Will much more than stamblades do on Scourge, in PvP, but many stamblades use the skill as a buff. If they left Minor Berserk on the magicka morph, stamblades would probably use that as a buff skill. However, if they made Minor Berserk a passive of the magicka morph while slotted, that would be quite a sacrifice for a stamblade to slot on their offensive bar. I don't know what ZOS' reasoning is, though.

kaithuzar

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

There are at least 3 different forum topics complaining about how weak magicka nightblade is, especially melee magicka nightblade when compared to other classes & playstyles.

A link was shared above stating you are removing the 8% damage buff from merciless resolve aka assassin’s will.
Can we trust that other areas will receive buffs to account for magicka nightblade’s drastically weakened state over the past few patches?

Is there an ETA on PTS natch potes that we can expect?
This change is obviously a top concern to us & any information would be appreciated; even if it’s a yes/no answer.

Knootewoot

Topic: please help magblade

@zos response: nerf merciless resolve

Whatever... 😑

zyk

Rikumaru wrote: »

Welp, not only is minor vitality gone but minor berserk buff is gone too.



If magblades doesn't get some serious buffs next patch it's gonna be lights out.

It's like ZOS has included nerfing Nightblade in their marketing material as a feature.

NEW in Update 22:
* large new map to explore
* x new dungeons
* x new trials
* Nightblades nerfed

casparian

Rob Garret apparently said something along these lines:

He said it’s a question they get a lot and whilst it’s not off the table they as a company do need to produce for everyone and a majority of the bugs and issues faced are not ones everyone encounters or are drastically halting gameplay, as such they need to continue creating content for people who want new content to play and and don’t play at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky.

The "everyone" are the people who play through zone storylines, will be eagerly devouring Elseweyr's story content, are excited to try out the new parse dummy, etc. When they come to PVP, they aren't going to try to mount a small scale defense of Bruma, 1vX near Sejanus, etc. They're just dropping into BGs for the daily, or hanging out with their friends for a laugh in Cyrodiil. The ones who play at "at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky" aren't important enough to concern Rob Garrett and the combat team.

So what if magblade is underperforming in one specific, endgame application? That won't impact the amount of players returning for Elseweyr.

The_Lex

As I said in another thread:

For PvE, it probably won't be that bad for either stam or mag. It will probably still be at the top of the heap for DPS.

For PvP, this will put mageblade in an even worse spot than it already is now. One can hope that they plan to give back something in the process.

LordTareq

Thankfully I wasn't using Grim Focus, so it won't personally affect me, but its still a little shady that its being brought as a "Good news everyone! We are nerfing a nightblade skill" announcement almost.

Anyhow, I think magblades will be in a good spot regardless if (and that is a big if) we ever get magicka variants of melee weapons, or a passive that does this. Balance wise it makes no sense that our light/heavy attacks are so gimped when going melee. Currently melee heavy attacks don't even restore magicka making sustain harder as well...

Iskiab

casparian wrote: »

So what if magblade is underperforming in one specific, endgame application? That won't impact the amount of players returning for Elseweyr.

Yes it will, Magblade is one of people's favourite classes.

Anyways, for those who're interested in magblade damage and healing specs for BGs, think I have the groundwork for a nice spec but it could use some fine tuning. Here's what I used:

Resto-Ice
Bright-throat, Buffer of the swift, nightflame (not sure which monster would be best). Steed. 3 jewellery transmutations: protective, triune, health. Breton.

Healthy Offering, Rapid Regen, Ward Ally, Refreshing Path, Shadowy Disguise - Ult: Soul Siphon
Crippling Grasp, Ice Blockade, Impale, Frost Ring, Inner Light - Ult: Soul Harvest

I've basicly been using my healing gear and switching in damage abilities and figured something out. Impulse is actually the best NB spammable because of reflections lol. Sad but true. I accidentally decon'd my BRP Ice staff so don't have one available but that would definitely be the way to go.

Here's the result:
https://imgur.com/NuD78b6 (embedding never works for me for some reason)

I'm happy with the front bar except maybe add combat prayer instead of ward ally, back Ice bar could use some work. Impale, Frost Ring (Impulse) and Ice Blockade I like. Rest can go. As you can see from the screen shot I have way more deaths then I'm comfortable with. I'm thinking a 'no-reflection magblade healer-dps' spec using the BRP Ice staff could be really strong.

What sets do you think? Maybe add concealed, double take and manifestation of terror and get rid of Inner Light and anything reflectable? I’m actually considering no monster and a healing master weapon and BRP Ice staff instead to keep two 5 piece bomus’, that would mean using a crafted set.

kaithuzar

@Iskiab
Good on you for trying but I see 2 issues.
1) I don’t see where your damage is
2) I think you will have sustain issues

Iskiab

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Iskiab
Good on you for trying but I see 2 issues.
1) I don’t see where your damage is
2) I think you will have sustain issues

Ah, well the BRP Ice staff adds a 8k dot per application (or something along those lines). Ice blockade is already really strong because it’s a ground effect that snares. I’ve hit 500k as a dps/healer build before, but as soon as there were a lot of reflections it’d drop to to maybe 200k. I’m happy with this one because using a similar spec and using impulse instead of swallow soul helped me maintain my normal damage against reflection classes.

Sustain isn’t too much of an issue for me. 2x recovery glyphs, Breton. Bright throat. That’s generally enough.

I’m actually thinking crafted set plus x, using BRP Ice staff and the master’s resto staff. For damage apply blockade and try to impulse to maintain the dot. If I got 500k in that BG I imagine I’d hit 700-800k doing this in a long match. Using the master’s resto staff I’ll probably add more sp runes.

kaithuzar

@KenaPKK ,
Man, we’ve talked a few times & never had any issues. But do you even play anymore?
Do you even play magblade anymore?

You’re the nightblade class representative.
I never see you in Cyrodiil, I don’t see you responding on the forums, I know that NDA stuff is like shackles to some extent, but it just means you have to watch your wording, it doesn’t mean that you aren’t allowed to comment with a personal opinion or take part in a debate.

I believe the class has changed a lot since I’ve last heard you comment & am anxious to hear your current thoughts. I thought at one point you even use to make build vids.

I’m not going to say everyone on the forums is intelligent, I know with a lot of topics I’m not, but I feel like we’ve been having pretty decent respectable debates here & there has been some distance & maybe even lost touch with the community; when I thought the position of class rep was to some extent supposed to be “the voice of the community”.

Anxiously awaiting your reply,
-Kai

brandonv516

Such a bad feeling with one small revealed change.

Can't help it that I worry this update will finish off a class on life support in some roles.

ecru

The_Lex wrote: »

As I said in another thread:

For PvE, it probably won't be that bad for either stam or mag. It will probably still be at the top of the heap for DPS.

For PvP, this will put mageblade in an even worse spot than it already is now. One can hope that they plan to give back something in the process.

Magblade is not "at the top of the heap" currently, so it certainly won't be at the top if this change goes through.

HowlKimchi

Well that change does suck... So basically it doesn't do anything unless you've done enough light attacks to proc it? I feel like that isn't the whole picture here. It cant just be a buff that needs to be up to count light attacks.

If minor berserk is getting removed, I'm hoping other aspects of the class is buffed. Otherwise it'd be GG.

We will just have to wait until the first PTS patch notes.

Iskiab

HaruKamui wrote: »

Well that change does suck... So basically it doesn't do anything unless you've done enough light attacks to proc it? I feel like that isn't the whole picture here. It cant just be a buff that needs to be up to count light attacks.

If minor berserk is getting removed, I'm hoping other aspects of the class is buffed. Otherwise it'd be GG.

We will just have to wait until the first PTS patch notes.

Agreed, I’m not really worried.

Datthaw

So after running maybe 20 bgs with heavy armor brp restp (not cp cyro because primetime lag) I'm starting to feel that even with brp restp, dark cloak is just crap...

Iskiab

Datthaw wrote: »

So after running maybe 20 bgs with heavy armor brp restp (not cp cyro because primetime lag) I'm starting to feel that even with brp restp, dark cloak is just crap...

I think it is, people have said you need to be over 30k health for it to be effective. It’s stronger than Vigor, but is about the same as Vigor and Troll King.

LordTareq

I tried it with 48k health in battlegrounds with mist form. It still felt as if normal cloak would have mitigated more damage.

Datthaw

I like zos, it's like

"Please help magnb class is struggling" - community

"Nerf focus?" -zos

"....no...no, no, that's not what I said at" -community

"NERF FOCUS!" -zos

Datthaw

It's a joke at this point. Now even gankblade and calublade is less viable

Torbschka

Datthaw wrote: »

It's a joke at this point. Now even gankblade and calublade is less viable

Calublade was the one thing which is still fun...*** this. Im not even talking about caluu ganker, but a balanced (stats wise) burst build.

LordTareq

How do you guys deal with stamsorcs by the way, its the only class I have consistent difficulties with, and also can't usually disengage from. Typically they seem to be able to do more damage to me than I to them so a straight slugging match doesn't work, cloak is basically a useless skill thanks to their constant AOE Hurricane and getting away works like only once in twenty times due to that huge AOE surrounding them. Even if I root them, dodge roll out of AOE and cloak, they just streak in my general direction and I'm again caught in their huge AOE.

thankyourat

LordTareq wrote: »

How do you guys deal with stamsorcs by the way, its the only class I have consistent difficulties with, and also can't usually disengage from. Typically they seem to be able to do more damage to me than I to them so a straight slugging match doesn't work, cloak is basically a useless skill thanks to their constant AOE Hurricane and getting away works like only once in twenty times due to that huge AOE surrounding them. Even if I root them, dodge roll out of AOE and cloak, they just streak in my general direction and I'm again caught in their huge AOE.

Stam sorcs are usually squishy so they are able to be bursted. You are going to want to use shade and crippling grasp to control them and keep your distance. Cloak is pretty useless in this fight especially if they have ST. Shade however is very useful and if the Stam sorc isn't using a gap closer you completely counter him as long as you are constantly kiting.

kaithuzar

@thankyourat
What stam sorc isn’t using streak?

thankyourat

kaithuzar wrote: »

@thankyourat
What stam sorc isn’t using streak?

I fought a good amount that don't use streak. Some do some don't. Streak isn't really going to help them 1v1 against a magblade though. It's only viable in preventing magblades from escaping. More so in 1vX situation. 1v1 if they streak at you all you have to do is root them and teleport and they just wasted all that magicka.

Overall with fear, shade, and cripple you can zone out a Stam sorc to where it's impossible to do any consistent damage against you. If you switch to a zoning playstyle over a cloaking one Stam sorcs are actually one of magblades easier matchups

Iskiab

thankyourat wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@thankyourat
What stam sorc isn’t using streak?

I fought a good amount that don't use streak. Some do some don't. Streak isn't really going to help them 1v1 against a magblade though. It's only viable in preventing magblades from escaping. More so in 1vX situation. 1v1 if they streak at you all you have to do is root them and teleport and they just wasted all that magicka.

Overall with fear, shade, and cripple you can zone out a Stam sorc to where it's impossible to do any consistent damage against you. If you switch to a zoning playstyle over a cloaking one Stam sorcs are actually one of magblades easier matchups

Yea, IDK why but sorcs never build for sustain. 3x SP glyphs or bust for them, they’re obsessed with their burst and crutch harness magicka for sustain.

I don’t play one, but this is what it looks like to me when I fight one.

Jeezye

casparian wrote: »

Rob Garret apparently said something along these lines:

He said it’s a question they get a lot and whilst it’s not off the table they as a company do need to produce for everyone and a majority of the bugs and issues faced are not ones everyone encounters or are drastically halting gameplay, as such they need to continue creating content for people who want new content to play and and don’t play at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky.

The "everyone" are the people who play through zone storylines, will be eagerly devouring Elseweyr's story content, are excited to try out the new parse dummy, etc. When they come to PVP, they aren't going to try to mount a small scale defense of Bruma, 1vX near Sejanus, etc. They're just dropping into BGs for the daily, or hanging out with their friends for a laugh in Cyrodiil. The ones who play at "at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky" aren't important enough to concern Rob Garrett and the combat team.

So what if magblade is underperforming in one specific, endgame application? That won't impact the amount of players returning for Elseweyr.

Don't forget the PvP community itself just represents a tiny fraction of the whole player base. Think about prime time, there's like 3 capped campaigns max, which is less than 1,5k players. Add the few BGs, let it be 500. How do 2000 active pvp players compare to a total base of 1 mio. active monthly users? PvP is just a niche in this game, sucks but its reality.

kaithuzar

@Jeezye
don’t forget that ~1 mil player base is spread across PC NA, EU, XBox, PS4...
& all of them have different amounts of PVP players.

I would argue that due to console players typically being FPS players, they are more pvp’ers there than on pc
Unfortunately a lot have probably left due to bugs & performance issues.