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The Elsweyr Chapter and Update 22 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the full patch notes here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599

Organized Raids This Patch

  • LeifErickson
    LeifErickson
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    frozywozy wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    frozywozy wrote: »
    I will say it again. Don't ask me a question regarding something you can't quote.

    Please direct me to the post where I downgraded such 1vX player and then we can continue this conversation.
    Downplayed 1vX players' experiences in 24 mans* (not the players themselves), and sure. All from that very same #69 post.
    frozywozy wrote: »
    I have been following this thread without saying anything so far but I gotta step in at this point. I have seen alot of people assume and declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs and what a stam support should accomplish in such group.

    When they got asked what kind of experience they had, they simply said that they ran once with a ballgroup and got a ton of kills easy mode (being carried or not). Some of them even went all in and described what is a stamina support role for them.

    First of all, it does not mean that you played once or twice or 10times in a ballgroup, got easy wins everytime, but then tried to 1vX and died very quickly that one is easier than the other. It's a question of how you challenge yourself and who you are fighting exactly.
    You never backed up your "declare with certainty that they know exactly how an organized group runs" by the way.. "First of all" in this format demonstrates an abruptness or beginning in line of thought, which in a circumstance like this usually indicates finding fault with something preceding it.

    You never pointed me out to this quote specifically. You generalized and said I straight downgraded 1vXers which I never did. Now I don't wanna point out names specifically because some people would see that as naming and shaming. Simply put, some people claimed that playing in an organized group is easy mode because they played once in a group. Then I proceeded and explained that those groups used to barely to not say never leave their front lines to challenge themselves deep in enemy territory. Really simple stuff. I'm sure you would have understood reading it twice.
    frozywozy wrote: »
    Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread.
    frozywozy wrote: »
    Before assuming make sure that you have experienced and challenged yourself against real opponents.

    Again, this was pointed to the same people and for the same reasons. I wasn't bashing on 1vXers or claiming that one playstyle is less skilful than another. I simply explained that if you wanna backup your words and claim that something is a fact, you will have to do better than running with one ballgroup one night zerg surfing and claim that this is easy.

    I'm going to assume you are talking about me here since I specifically said I did it one night. But what's funny is the fact that you somehow know what we were doing that night even though you weren't there. Zerg surfing? How can you even make that claim unless you were actually in that group that night. I literally was at Alessia when I joined their group. You know, the keep that is often the center of the EP AD frontlines? As in, we were DC fighting between EP and AD. We spent most of our time around this keep and on the bridge. To me it just seems like you are trying to bait people with your comments, saying things you have no reason to say. Maybe VE spends their time zerg surfing a lot, I have no idea. But I can tell you that one night I was with them we didn't. It's also funny too because every time I encounter you open world you are getting farmed and packed up. Your forum pvp is good but you need to get better in game my man.
  • LeifErickson
    LeifErickson
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    And @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO I don't think you have said that you think group play is on par with 1vx specifically but your replies make me think you do feel this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if you do and all you need is to strengthen your combo timing and enemy strength assessment (not really even sure what this means as a lot of solo specs don't really get to choose who they fight), why not actually start going out and 1vxing and see how you still feel about it. A 1vxer can't really put together another 15 people all in min maxed builds and start grouping together instantly but a group player can start 1vxing instantly as all they need is themselves. Go out and 1vx and see what you think.

    I've said in my replies, I consider good group play and good 1vX to be on par with each other in the sense of their respective gameplay styles and challenges which go along with them.
    Simply sticking the best group player in a 1vX scenario will be as effective as sticking the best 1vXer in a group scenario, that is to say its likely both will not perform as well as each other in the respective fields. Generally players who can understand a group scenario well are also capable of being a good 1vXer and vice versa

    Additionally almost all solo specs performing well right now can choose their encounters because there is no real tie to an objective other than LoS terrain.
    When was the last time you 1vX'd someone who had a decent chance of beating you in a duel?

    Compare this to guilds regularly fighting each other in outnumbered situations for example.

    I'm glad you think its harder to form a raid of good players than it is to start to 1vX, we can agree on this :)

    It's actually often easier to 1vx someone who could beat you in a duel because they get into the xv1 mindset and don't play properly, let their buffs fall, and die. It happens more than you think.
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    ✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    You can't possibly watch this back and think to yourself "this is exactly like what Drac does, and I didn't like it because it didn't feel skillful". Every group has bloopers and bad wipes, but when a great organized raid is at the top of their game it's miles beyond what it looks like when a bunch of people just decided to group because they were sick of getting zerged down.
    To do it that well takes practice, it takes some thought and trial and error working out support, damage, healing, and most importantly it takes focus to go from moving in a "snake" where the back of the group is 4 seconds behind the front, to a tight group.
    Any new guild or developing guild group watches videos of established raid groups to try learning what they can do better. What decision should they make facing similar circumstances? How are they utilizing their support slots? How many healers for their group size? And they use whatever answers and insight they can glean from clips to try improving their performance and engaging larger groups with greater success.
    Compared to dueling and solo content, there is very little available online for learning how to play successfully as a group, which is a shame because if there were we might have more good groups and less zergs.
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • Haashhtaag
    Haashhtaag
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    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?
    That guild was filled with a lot of good to really good players who can solo/1vX small scale. The groups were usually 6-8 members but grew to that amount because at the time zergs were gigantic on ps4 NA.

    While it may not be the most efficient group but the group from top to bottom was stacked and was effective due to player skill.








    Edited by Haashhtaag on February 28, 2019 3:03PM
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    Edited by MalagenR on February 28, 2019 8:00PM
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    And @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO I don't think you have said that you think group play is on par with 1vx specifically but your replies make me think you do feel this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if you do and all you need is to strengthen your combo timing and enemy strength assessment (not really even sure what this means as a lot of solo specs don't really get to choose who they fight), why not actually start going out and 1vxing and see how you still feel about it. A 1vxer can't really put together another 15 people all in min maxed builds and start grouping together instantly but a group player can start 1vxing instantly as all they need is themselves. Go out and 1vx and see what you think.

    I've said in my replies, I consider good group play and good 1vX to be on par with each other in the sense of their respective gameplay styles and challenges which go along with them.
    Simply sticking the best group player in a 1vX scenario will be as effective as sticking the best 1vXer in a group scenario, that is to say its likely both will not perform as well as each other in the respective fields. Generally players who can understand a group scenario well are also capable of being a good 1vXer and vice versa

    Additionally almost all solo specs performing well right now can choose their encounters because there is no real tie to an objective other than LoS terrain.
    When was the last time you 1vX'd someone who had a decent chance of beating you in a duel?

    Compare this to guilds regularly fighting each other in outnumbered situations for example.

    I'm glad you think its harder to form a raid of good players than it is to start to 1vX, we can agree on this :)

    It's actually often easier to 1vx someone who could beat you in a duel because they get into the xv1 mindset and don't play properly, let their buffs fall, and die. It happens more than you think.

    Fact. People who love to 1v1 and duel are usually garbage in open world. They don't run a build designed to counter open world players and multiple fighters. Usually they are running a dueling build, and when they are dueling they will switch their sets depending on which class they are fighting. This is not realistic in open world.

  • templesus
    templesus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    What’s your psn?
    PS4 NA

    Redguard Stamplar | Dark Elf Magplar

    | Voice Of Reason | Shadow Breaker | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Dro'Mathra Destroyer | Flawless Conqueror |

    1vX/Small Scale PvPer & Endgame PvEer
  • montiferus
    montiferus
    ✭✭✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    What’s your psn?

    [snip]

    I hear he is one of the top solo / smallscale players on [snip].

    [Edit for naming.]
    Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on March 1, 2019 4:38AM
  • templesus
    templesus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    montiferus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    What’s your psn?

    [snip]

    I hear he is one of the top solo / smallscale players on [snip].

    [Edit for naming.]

    I’ve been playing this game since launch, 1vXing, small scaling, done tons of dueling/2v2/3v3 tourneys, PvEd at the endgame level leaderboard pushing, and I have never once heard or seen anybody by that PSN. Unless they’re on EU they are definitely not what you said.
    Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on March 1, 2019 4:41AM
    PS4 NA

    Redguard Stamplar | Dark Elf Magplar

    | Voice Of Reason | Shadow Breaker | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Dro'Mathra Destroyer | Flawless Conqueror |

    1vX/Small Scale PvPer & Endgame PvEer
  • zyk
    zyk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's interesting that players are comparing the relative difficulty level of different styles without considering the most important factor: who and where you choose to fight. But as usual, ESO players are obsessed with numbers as if that's all that matters.

    In my experience, the toughest fights come from fighting strong organized groups of any size among disorganized randoms. I think too few players who regard themselves as good put them in that situation enough to realize it.

    The other factor is where and how you choose to fight. When one successfully establishes a kite, they have the advantage. They have compelled their opponents to play into their hands. This is true whether it is a 1vX player doing some premeditated los routine or a ball group kiting to their favorite chokes.

    If you are invested in an objective in the sense that it is important to you for your faction to win the fight, that is a disadvantage against an opponent that doesn't really care. Many groups just bail and kite away when they start to lose a fight because they just don't care.

    Ball groups have, by far, the highest floor and ceilings. Sure, there are lots of bad large groups out there, but they'd be even worse ungrouped or completely solo. And no matter how good a small group is, they're never going to match the crazy production of an OP ball group. I've had a lot of successful nights playing solo, but nothing matches the crazy runs we'd have in Venatus and Rage with 500+ kill streaks and hundreds of individual killing blows being par for the course with a good group comp.

    If running OP ball groups is so easy, why don't more do it? Well, a lot of us who used to do it are sick of it. A lot of the remaining oldschool ball group players from yesteryear have been small scale or solo for a long time now. Personally, Earthgore ruined large group play for me; we didn't even have to pay attention most of the time.

    Plus, when you ran a ball group in 2015, you could expect a night of fighting other ball groups. Not so much anymore. Fighting randoms in an OP optimized organized large group is just stupid to me.. at least outside of objective considerations. I think playing the map rights a lot of wrongs in this regard.

    I've also noticed a lot of ball group players note that they "need" rapids to do what they do because of the vast numbers they choose to fight. Well, obviously OP DKs could have said exactly the same thing prior to 1.6 because they were accustomed to being OP. Ball groups aren't entitled to the tools to handle fighting 50+ opponents at once.

    I look forward to see how large groups adapt to the rapids change. I hope it brings them down to earth a bit because IMO, they've been OP since at least 3.2 and completely miserable for non-ball groups to have to deal with.
    Edited by zyk on March 1, 2019 5:15AM
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
    pvp videos: eso zyk on youtube
    enjin profile
    66
    steps-on-all-toes
    lives · lived · will live - dies · died · will die
  • Edirt_seliv
    Edirt_seliv
    ✭✭✭
    emma666 wrote: »
    As someone who used to play support for years in big groups and now favour smallscale, I personally have no doubt that large scale support is one of the easiest roles in PvP. I would expect people who compare smallscale vs large scale to atleast have experience in both playstyles to truly be able to compare, but what I'm seeing is players who lack experience in one of them and just sound heavily biased and salty. Notice how every person here defending the (objectively untrue) statement that "stamina support takes as much skill as solo/smallscale play" all favour large scale zerg PvP and is rarely found outside of a big group? Hmm, I wonder why... :neutral: Whatever makes y'all feel better.

    Which players?
    Edited by Edirt_seliv on March 1, 2019 3:42AM
  • Recremen
    Recremen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    emma666 wrote: »
    As someone who used to play support for years in big groups and now favour smallscale, I personally have no doubt that large scale support is one of the easiest roles in PvP. I would expect people who compare smallscale vs large scale to atleast have experience in both playstyles to truly be able to compare, but what I'm seeing is players who lack experience in one of them and just sound heavily biased and salty. Notice how every person here defending the (objectively untrue) statement that "stamina support takes as much skill as solo/smallscale play" all favour large scale zerg PvP and is rarely found outside of a big group? Hmm, I wonder why... :neutral: Whatever makes y'all feel better.

    lol "objectively untrue". If it were objectively untrue then it should be easy to quantify and categorize all the ways it's harder. Anyone want to bite the bullet, or is everyone too scared to dive into it? Right now the only argument seems to be "it has to be hard because it feels hard", which isn't exactly a refutable analysis.
    Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
    Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster
  • fullheartcontainer
    fullheartcontainer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Irylia wrote: »
    Has anyone seen any since rapids nerf? If so how hilarious has it been to watch them move amidst the time stops/roots?

    The age of siege and dragon disruptor are upon us.

    I know the thread has moved away from the initial topic, but we're doing just fine without rapids ^_^ when you're organized, there's not a lot that can bring you down that doesn't bring everyone else down harder. Iron Legion has been taking names out here in the mud and siege
  • TheLionFromTheNorth
    Intense and interesting thread so far xD

    In the end it's the same in every game, where solo players are facing enemy groups. It's extremely frustrating to figth a group without being able to succeed and dying again and again (completely understandable for me).

    But ESO is a MMO and the big structures in Cyrodiil are definitely designed for people working together. (I'm not talking about some people smallscaling somewhere, but about taking Keeps and dominating enemy forces as long as possible.)
    So people playing a MMO solo, complaining about other people working together should just digg out ther social skills to find friends to play with.

    About the whole "Skills" discussion: I don't think that it's possible to compare PvP raiding to PvE or Smallscaling.
    In a Guild vs Guild the whole, limited "i press the correct buttons" mentality of solo playing becomes irrelevant. In this situation it's all about working as an team, communication, situational awareness. Just like a sports team or if you are part of a team at your workplace. That's the true PvP endgame. I'm talking about outnumbered raiding / GvG situations here. Also agree that those random zergs chasing few ppl over the map are stupid.

    And about the whole Stamina Support bashing: In our raids we always tried to have very experienced players on stamina support. I agree that it's not very hard to play in like 90% of the time. But in critical situations a good stamina support will make the difference between staying alive or wiping. It doesn't need alot combat skills to play it, i agree. But it requires a extreme high level of situational awarenes and positioning. Why don't you consider this to be a "skill" too?!

    Apart from this i completely disagree that Rapid Maneuver was "waay to strong". It costs like 8k stamina and it's quite diffucult to make a build that allows to use that skill often enough after the dark deal nerf (talking about noCP).
    So in every raid one out of ~10 players had to do nothing but providing a buff that wouldn't last longer than 1 sec. Thats an incredible amount of lifetime that has been spent just for this buff in the past.

    And keep in mind that there is simply no real counterplay (i don't count mistform since you can't do *** in mistform) to snares and roots for magicka chars (exept Mag DK's)!!!
    So FIRST add a snare/root counterplay to every class and THEN remove the only other way to do it on most mag chars.

    Would be great if ZOS could balance things a bit more carefully in the future. Changes like the maneuver nerf can kill a whole section of this game (PvP raiding), that has been in there for many years.
    Looking forward to see how raiding goes this patch.
    Edited by TheLionFromTheNorth on March 1, 2019 2:17PM
    @TheLionFromTheNorth
    >Check out my Youtube channel!<

    Guildmaster & Raidleader of
    PANTHERRA
    07.11.2017 - 11.01.2019


    Ebonheart Pact PvP
    PC - EU Sotha Sil


    PVP CHARS:
    RAID CHARS
    EP - L Î O N A - Bombblade
    EP - L I O N - Magicka Dragonknigth
    EP - Aéla Lionheart - Stamina Warden
    EP - The Lîon From The North - Templar Purge
    EP - Morrîgan - Templar Heal
    EP - Pee In Your Tea - Speedbuff

    AD - L Î O N X - Bombblade

    SOLO CHARS
    EP - L I O N A - Magicka Sorcerer
    EP - Bua Nó Bás - Stamina Nigthblade
    EP - Garry The Lizard - Magicka DK

    > 65.000.000 AP
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    montiferus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    What’s your psn?

    [snip]

    I hear he is one of the top solo / smallscale players on [snip].

    [Edit for naming.]

    Don't worry buddy, I got a video coming out for you, just need to wait till the build gets nerfed before I share it :)
  • emma666
    emma666
    ✭✭✭✭
    Recremen wrote: »
    emma666 wrote: »
    As someone who used to play support for years in big groups and now favour smallscale, I personally have no doubt that large scale support is one of the easiest roles in PvP. I would expect people who compare smallscale vs large scale to atleast have experience in both playstyles to truly be able to compare, but what I'm seeing is players who lack experience in one of them and just sound heavily biased and salty. Notice how every person here defending the (objectively untrue) statement that "stamina support takes as much skill as solo/smallscale play" all favour large scale zerg PvP and is rarely found outside of a big group? Hmm, I wonder why... :neutral: Whatever makes y'all feel better.

    lol "objectively untrue". If it were objectively untrue then it should be easy to quantify and categorize all the ways it's harder. Anyone want to bite the bullet, or is everyone too scared to dive into it? Right now the only argument seems to be "it has to be hard because it feels hard", which isn't exactly a refutable analysis.

    Huh? It comes down to experience for me. I'm not going to waste time doing math or rabbling all the differing things between supporting and smallscaling. I have 5 years of eso PvP experience as a rapid spamming support healer and as a smallscaling templar/sorcerer, I think it speaks for something. I can objectively say that not only is being a support in a large raid easy, just being in a large raid is way easier - especially now considering there's minimal competitive large scale PvP in eso compared to before. I'm pretty sure that we completely disagree on most things regarding this considering your first post on this thread, so I doubt a debate on this will change any minds. I just wanted to share my thoughts since I saw many players confidently comparing playstyles they are ironically inexperienced with.
    Nymeria - Ebonheart - Grand Overlady - Imperial Templar - Havoc

    I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    What’s your psn?

    What's yours? Whisper me and I'll whisper you bb.
  • templesus
    templesus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    What’s your psn?

    What's yours? Whisper me and I'll whisper you bb.

    I was already told by someone who commented that your PsN was Rahman_TK (inb4 you report to have it erased lol). Not a clue who you are and asked the entire Odyssey guild which is 200+ small scale players on every faction, pretty much every small scaler left playing the game, and nobody knows who you are. So you saying you haven’t seen anybody in the video above doesn’t really hold much weight.
    PS4 NA

    Redguard Stamplar | Dark Elf Magplar

    | Voice Of Reason | Shadow Breaker | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Dro'Mathra Destroyer | Flawless Conqueror |

    1vX/Small Scale PvPer & Endgame PvEer
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    What’s your psn?

    What's yours? Whisper me and I'll whisper you bb.

    I was already told by someone who commented that your PsN was Rahman_TK (inb4 you report to have it erased lol). Not a clue who you are and asked the entire Odyssey guild which is 200+ small scale players on every faction, pretty much every small scaler left playing the game, and nobody knows who you are. So you saying you haven’t seen anybody in the video above doesn’t really hold much weight.

    I'm not the one that reported it. I think they just caught it themselves. That is my PSN, nobody is trying to hide it lol....

    I don't even know who Odyssey is, you must be one of those Shor guilds. Nobody in that video is seen anywhere during prime time Central US on the NA server. I don't see them near Sej, I don't see them near anywhere really.

    Sounds like you think your guild is pro but based on that video.... it isn't.

    You also had no problem stating my PSN while withholding yours, wonder why that would be.
    Edited by MalagenR on March 1, 2019 9:23PM
  • templesus
    templesus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    MalagenR wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    Can you really make the argument that it would be just as easy for a Stamina support player to transition to a successful 1vX player as it would for a 1vX player to transition to a Stamina support player? I highly doubt it, for obvious reasons.

    Lets consider what skills are important for each role.

    Assessment of enemy strength. - Mainly 1vX although this comes into factor with Stam support too (for how much support vs other skills are required and when ulti is required etc)
    Combo timing - Mainly 1vX
    Raid awareness - Only raid
    Supporting allies - raid skill
    peeling damage - raid skill
    group communication - raid skill
    Cancelling and weaving - both
    Map knowledge - both
    Resource management - Both
    Buff upkeep - both
    Situational awareness - both
    enemy prediction - both

    what do you consider i've missed? now if a raid player can learn combo timing and a better level of enemy strength assessment (if they aren't necessarily using this during raids) do you think that is easier compared to learning raid awareness, how to correctly support allies, how to correctly peel damage and CC's and how to communicate within the group?

    Granted players in raids can play without some of these skills but these raids are never as successful similar to how some people could try and 1vX but struggle in most situations

    You missed:
    Proper use of LoS
    Proper use of defense mechanisms
    Proper use of heals

    Arguable some of the most important things to 1vX, your comment was a blatant Texas sharpshooter.

    As for the person who analogized vma and Vet trials to solo play and group play, I can’t even justify that with a response. You can’t compare PvE mechanics and PvP mechanics, period.

    Proper use of LoS - both
    Proper use of defense mechanisms - both
    Proper use of heals - both

    anything else? @templesus

    Just saying “both” doesn’t illustrate how in depth it has to be used. If I have a dedicated healer spamming springs and BoL with healing ults I don’t have to worry about healing myself anywhere near as much as I would solo. Same with LoS. Same with overall defense mechanisms of dodge roll, block, shield etc. Theyre used significantly less in organized groups then 1vX, and that’s speaking from experience.

    TL;DR - 1vX requires much more skill then group play. I have videos of 1vX and have videos from when I ran with the best guild on PS4 before it disbanded as proof, would be interested to see videos of the people claiming group play is easier 1vXing.

    Dodge roll - extremely important in group play, not only for avoiding damage but also preemptively mitigating it, as is blocking and shielding (stam supports often used bone shield too).
    Healing - Stam heals are the only heals which work when negated other than ongoing hots. So its important to be smart in groups too regarding healing, sure you have healers but you are also taking way more damage to go along with this.

    Not to mention that use of such mechanics in order to protect the others in the raid (for example when you have defensives up body blocking your allies)

    I can't comment on your PS4 raids ability but I think the fact they disbanded is enough proof for me, generally when raids disband its because their environment isn't healthy. feel free to post the videos if you want my opinion on it.

    No lol it disbanded because 80% of the people playing the game quit. This is one of our longest fights I could find from an old guildy (quit the game lmfao) the majority of the players in our guild were duelers/solo/small scale players that got together because we were tired of always getting zerged down.

    We didn’t have any rapids spammers btw. Our support consisted of a talons/igneous spamming dk(4-5k igneous for group on cast) several stamplars in werewolf hide tavas and bloodspawn pumping healing ults, and negate stam sorcs.

    I understand your perspective a bit more, but this isnt a high level raid in my mind. Maybe @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO thinks otherwise?

    @templesus

    I think this video quite aptly shows the difference in my mind between perspectives of a good raid vs someone who hasn't experienced a good raid .

    That isn't to say that you can't have fun in such raids but its comparing completely different things.

    Watching the video the first death occurs on an almost uncontested flag to an NPC negate and blazing shield templar who admittedly was emp for the first 2m of the clip so did provide some extra challenge for your group.
    (I appreciate it isn't you recording) but I'm sorry to say it doesn't get much better in my eyes. Your group outnumbers the enemies there for the majority if not all of the video.

    Its very clear to me that you don't have people playing group roles there based on the performance of the group and if you did and understood these group roles you would have not only secured the tick for yourselves but also cleaned up the keep and the blue raid most likely.
    Equally this might be good performance for the PS4 platform, i'd have to watch other PS4 gameplay to find out

    i play on PS4. Mostly solo. 15+ years of gaming experience. No groups on PS4 could be considered "Good". Some of the best small scalers on PS4 are total garbage at group play. It's not even their fault, it's only natural, they don't typically play on a team. You can't go from playing solo to playing as a team in one day.

    This is very much because it's a console game that is very casual friendly. Most of the players running in zergs are your average COD human who has only ever played console, and this might even be their first MMO. Exactly like I can run a 25-1 KD ratio in a game of COD, most of the time these zerg groups are filled with those types of players that I just nailed 25 kills on and they scored 1.

    Not even sure how to fix the problem. It's hard to get through to humans that they need to improve. Especially some of the younger kids I see in zone chat and in groups - they really think they know wtf they are doing but aren't that good and are unwilling to listen to anyone.

    Also - none of the people in the above video are around anymore - I've never seen them even once. They don't stand out as people that are recognizable.

    PS4 Community is very much like a bunch of small highschool clique's that are at war with each other constantly. If you move from clique to clique you quickly realize that even some of the players you would define as "great" think that other players from a different clique are "great", but they might not be.

    It's like when a kid came to school and claimed there was a guy at another school that could lay everyone out, and then when you show up at the parking lot you realize it's just some decently sized kid that has no fighting experience but a really big mouth to back up their reputation. You fight them, they die easy, you move on. Most of the best PS4 players don't even know that there are forums or that they are used.

    What’s your psn?

    What's yours? Whisper me and I'll whisper you bb.

    I was already told by someone who commented that your PsN was Rahman_TK (inb4 you report to have it erased lol). Not a clue who you are and asked the entire Odyssey guild which is 200+ small scale players on every faction, pretty much every small scaler left playing the game, and nobody knows who you are. So you saying you haven’t seen anybody in the video above doesn’t really hold much weight.

    I'm not the one that reported it. I think they just caught it themselves. That is my PSN, nobody is trying to hide it lol....

    I don't even know who Odyssey is, you must be one of those Shor guilds. Nobody in that video is seen anywhere during prime time Central US on the NA server. I don't see them near Sej, I don't see them near anywhere really.

    Sounds like you think your guild is pro but based on that video.... it isn't.

    You also had no problem stating my PSN while withholding yours, wonder why that would be.

    Cuz it’s in the video? Lol
    PS4 NA

    Redguard Stamplar | Dark Elf Magplar

    | Voice Of Reason | Shadow Breaker | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Dro'Mathra Destroyer | Flawless Conqueror |

    1vX/Small Scale PvPer & Endgame PvEer
  • Thogard
    Thogard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Glory wrote: »
    frozywozy wrote: »
    Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

    Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

    I think the only scenario I've seen that even remotely resembles a fight like that is the one from your stream from a while back against AotP.

    In something like this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA&t=109s, I paused and counted and the numbers from AotP never exceeded 30 on screen (and they were pretty well grouped)


    I think this is the clip
    • First full-force engagement I counted 31-33 EP @ 0:05
    • Second push by your group I counted somewhere around 40 EP, probably 45
    • From 1:23 to 1:44 I counted somewhere from 44-50 enemies, although it was hard to tally due to the movement

    I don't think I've seen more than a handful of clips where people are fighting legitimately more than 50 people. Fighting 50 is quite a feat for any group (especially <=16), but I haven't seen any actual 80 enemy engagements (but there is truly an issue with necro-rezzing as well as having multiple groups of 24 throughout a keep etc.)

    Note: I am in no way saying any of these fights are unimpressive. I am questioning how people perceive the quantity of opponents they are fighting. I am also a culprit: sometimes I feel like I am fighting 10 people alone when it's 3-6

    That’s why I like miat’s addon.. the box that counts nearby allies and opponents. It keeps me honest while I’m streaming.
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thogard wrote: »
    Glory wrote: »
    frozywozy wrote: »
    Your comparaison and experience in a ballgroup has no impact in this thread. People are exclusively talking about the most challenging fight where it's your group of 8-16 against 4 if not 5times your numbers and your faction out of reach.

    Off-topic, but I am genuinely interested in seeing the 16v64-80's that people are talking about as being a scenario that happens.

    I think the only scenario I've seen that even remotely resembles a fight like that is the one from your stream from a while back against AotP.

    In something like this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA&t=109s, I paused and counted and the numbers from AotP never exceeded 30 on screen (and they were pretty well grouped)


    I think this is the clip
    • First full-force engagement I counted 31-33 EP @ 0:05
    • Second push by your group I counted somewhere around 40 EP, probably 45
    • From 1:23 to 1:44 I counted somewhere from 44-50 enemies, although it was hard to tally due to the movement

    I don't think I've seen more than a handful of clips where people are fighting legitimately more than 50 people. Fighting 50 is quite a feat for any group (especially <=16), but I haven't seen any actual 80 enemy engagements (but there is truly an issue with necro-rezzing as well as having multiple groups of 24 throughout a keep etc.)

    Note: I am in no way saying any of these fights are unimpressive. I am questioning how people perceive the quantity of opponents they are fighting. I am also a culprit: sometimes I feel like I am fighting 10 people alone when it's 3-6

    That’s why I like miat’s addon.. the box that counts nearby allies and opponents. It keeps me honest while I’m streaming.

    Yeah when I said "We also checked the amount of people who damaged us at the end of that engagement and it was between 70 and 75 if I recall correctly.", thats what I was referring to.

    I suggest to anyone interested to go check it out, very useful addon.

    https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1545-MiatsPVPAlerts.html
    Edited by frozywozy on March 2, 2019 8:58PM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
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    In the end.. EP WINS!!!
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Change Retreating Maneuvers to apply only to 12 players and give it the Streak treatment
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Increase Forward Momentum snare immunity duration to 8 seconds
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Add an escape move to templars other than mist form
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack
    • Make snares only available from ground effects
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Wtb dynamic population
    • Fix long loading screens
    • Bring ResSickness
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix server lag
  • Jaxaxo
    Jaxaxo
    ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe it's harder, cuz that 40 ppl attacking exactly that one guy doesnt even exist :trollface:
    EU PC Sotha Sil
    Triggered Tryhards / Aetherius Art / Battleground Beta Tester / Just Traders / LND
    EP - Airis an'Shar 47 AR stamblade
    AD - Airis en'Shar 46 AR stamblade
    AD - Pees-under-Trees - 30 AR magden

    Youtube
  • TBois
    TBois
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Went soloing this afternoon to wind down after a week of group pvp. This was way less effort for me than most fights running in a large group.

    Current Guilds: Decibel (Small Man), Fantasia, Omni
    Former Guilds: Decibel (Large Group), Hagnado
    PC/NA
    T-Bois (AR 50 Stam Sorc) - AD
    Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
    An Unsettling Snowball (Mag Temp) - AD

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDUkIEilHdG3v6I586WzoyA?
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haven't played this patch but I never used rapids anyway... unless Tbois was online :D I felt spoilt when he was in group. :D

    I think any build can be challenging outnumbered in a group size of around 10 or less, even a support build. I think once you go over around 10 things get easier.

    Also there is a huge difference between having a skilled player on a support build and having a less skilled one... like the difference is soooooo noticeable. I once thought that maybe I could get less skilled players to run support builds... nope. Ended up having some of the most skilled players running them, the difference is huge.

    I can definitely notice the difference when different players are in group, and I notice straight away whilst already in a fight when someone went afk / disconnected. (unless paul kills them all, then I don't notice that we won the fight with only 3 of our group members there coz i'm a slack group lead.) :D :D
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
    Stalker V AR 30 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 28 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 29 Sorc | Stalker Il AR 19 DK | Nigel the Great of Blackwater
    Former Emperor x10 campaign cycles
    Venatus Officer
    RIP RÁGE
    YouTube Channel
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh actually when I think about it, groups of 24 would've been nerfed pretty hard. Coz rapids was removing effects off 24 people that's kinda OP...

    Rip 24mans
    Edited by IxSTALKERxI on March 4, 2019 3:56PM
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
    Stalker V AR 30 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 28 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 29 Sorc | Stalker Il AR 19 DK | Nigel the Great of Blackwater
    Former Emperor x10 campaign cycles
    Venatus Officer
    RIP RÁGE
    YouTube Channel
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    emma666 wrote: »
    Recremen wrote: »
    emma666 wrote: »
    As someone who used to play support for years in big groups and now favour smallscale, I personally have no doubt that large scale support is one of the easiest roles in PvP. I would expect people who compare smallscale vs large scale to atleast have experience in both playstyles to truly be able to compare, but what I'm seeing is players who lack experience in one of them and just sound heavily biased and salty. Notice how every person here defending the (objectively untrue) statement that "stamina support takes as much skill as solo/smallscale play" all favour large scale zerg PvP and is rarely found outside of a big group? Hmm, I wonder why... :neutral: Whatever makes y'all feel better.

    lol "objectively untrue". If it were objectively untrue then it should be easy to quantify and categorize all the ways it's harder. Anyone want to bite the bullet, or is everyone too scared to dive into it? Right now the only argument seems to be "it has to be hard because it feels hard", which isn't exactly a refutable analysis.

    Huh? It comes down to experience for me.... I have 5 years of eso PvP experience as a rapid spamming support healer

    Say no more :p

    P.S. Rapids back when the game released and up until the drops on healing nerf and cost increases was a significantly different (and easier) game environment.

    Anyway as for the point of this thread rapids change is fine for groups but already observed more "frontline" stacking (less group vs group only encounters)

    Also I prefer to explain a problem via maths because it eliminates the "it feels like this" and allows for like for like comparison
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on March 4, 2019 4:27PM
    NA ~ Izanerys (NB/Templar/Sorc): Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
    EU ~ Izanagi (NB/Sorc): Zerg Squad / Banana Squad
  • ZOS_AntonioP
    Hello everyone,

    A reminder for everyone to stay constructive and respectful with one another to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account. Keep in mind that flaming and baiting are both against the Forum Rules.

    Thank you for understanding.
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  • templesus
    templesus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TBois wrote: »
    Went soloing this afternoon to wind down after a week of group pvp. This was way less effort for me than most fights running in a large group.


    Well that wasn’t really a 1vX clip, sure you killed a few people but then you ran away from the fight and didn’t finish it.

    It actually proves the point that 1vXing is harder then group play, because a true 1vXer would have stayed and tried to finish it off rather then run around the tower and just end it.
    PS4 NA

    Redguard Stamplar | Dark Elf Magplar

    | Voice Of Reason | Shadow Breaker | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Dro'Mathra Destroyer | Flawless Conqueror |

    1vX/Small Scale PvPer & Endgame PvEer
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