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The Elsweyr Chapter and Update 22 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the full patch notes here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

Organized Raids This Patch

  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    I've seen ball groups, except now they have to actually be tactical if they want to be successful.
    Edited by Kadoin on February 27, 2019 3:49AM
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    CyrusArya wrote: »

    Firstly from your first paragraph it's clear you don't have an understanding of the role. A tank deals with raid mechanics affecting the group in the same way a support char in pvp deals with pvp mechanics affecting a group
    Secondly there's no reason why you couldn't utilise group sets in a smaller group and even rapids.

    The fights you engage in when smallscaling or soloing are not even close to having the same level of debuffs going out just on a pure mechanics level. Which is why you have the luxury of not having needed these roles to enjoy your prefered playstyle.
    Quite simply put you aren't taking part in the same content when compared to the type of fight a good raid would aim for. For example I don't expect you to go out and try and solo down AotP but a group could quite legitimately attempt to do this. 60 players all throwing stacking debuffs on you vs what 2-5? 10 if they are terrible and don't cast any skills in the first place when 1vXing around some LoS area in open field.

    As other comments have said I'm sure some groups will adapt. It's not the first time groups have been nerfed and I'm sure it won't be the last but every single group nerf has made the game more zergy and less interesting for the majority of players even smallscalers complaining that all they find are zergs. I would have hoped by now that message would have sunk in.

    Yes, a tank deals with raid mechanics affecting the group. In contrast the old rapids role abused an overpowered ability, allowing groups to straight up by-pass an intended mechanic. It isn’t dealing with mechanics, it is skipping them entirely. A PvE tank is a far more legitimate role than one who’s entire purpose and existence revolved around a single overtuned ability. That would be my point.

    You're mistaken in assuming I am comparing playstyles in this conversation. I am not. But I disagree with your assessments and if you wanna compare by the numbers like that, we can.
    Bihw3ul.png
    In this instance I have 13 debuffs on me while fighting 4 people. According to you, in solo/small scale PvP, players don't experience anywhere close to the level of debuffs that raid groups do. By your logic and your numbers, you want me to believe that you guys individually experience any where close to a proportionately scaled (13x15) 195 debuffs on you at a time? Probably not. Also, keep in mind that there is a major/minor debuff system. So how stacked are the debuffs a raid group is facing really? The reality is, solo & small scale deal with similar if not more extreme circumstances. The difference is, the former play style does so without the assistance of dedicated support players spamming heals, purge, and rapids that the latter has the luxury of employing.

    I am not comparing play styles as you seem to think I am. I'm stating very simply that root/snare immunity and major expedition was too powerful of a buff. Access to each, individually, requires build concessions and liberal application in combat for the vast majority of players.The ability for one cast of one skill by one player to hand out both of these lucrative buffs to a group was overpowered.

    Let's look at the severity of the debuffs on you. You have snipe, mark target (3 debuffs one of which does nothing to your character), destro staff burning again doesn't really do anything to you, enchant poison again doesn't really do anything to you. Some other random small debuffs not really affecting you. The poisons (I don't use the same tracker so I'm guessing are just ticking dot poisons, sure they can add up to hurt)

    The 2/3 people in that screenshot are all attacking you with a single target dodgeable ability.

    Now compare this vs debuffs associated with raids. Aoe abilities hitting everyone scaling dmg by 8x (assuming they hit only half the raid). Siege, oils reduce 75% of healing done, meatbags, oil cats, ballistas all applying multiple debuffs and dmg sources. Then you have the constant aoe snares reapplying the roots the multi target stuns and fears, Time stops. This is on top of all those debuffs you have on you. Which is hitting everyone in the raid at once. Then the chainers and huge single target pressure if out of position as 20-40 people start to focus you down. All whilst you try and take some objective and achieve a goal alongside just kiting and killing the people attacking you.

    The only part of that rapids affected was removal of the snare and immobilisation debuffs.

    I maintain the fact you are playing a different game. To be clear I'm not saying it is less challenging to smallscale or solo. Just different. The tools groups were using were 100% justified mechanically for the challenges they faced imo.

    Let's take a look at the combat scenarios of how many debuffs can be applied at once in both scenarios
    I'll use a group of 20 for easier maths. 1v3 vs 20v60.

    1v3
    In the first second of combat each player can cast 1 ability on you. Let's say miraculously that they all cast different abilities and they all gave 3 debuffs (being generous) that's 9 debuffs.


    20v60
    Now consider the raid. I won't say that all 60 are casting something. Because it's an unlikely situation but even if only 20 cast something. And that happens to be an aoe debuff that's 20x3x10 (ive halved the raid because its unlikely all debuffs get applied to everyone).

    Now sure there's a major minor system and there aren't so many debuffs in game and they likely aren't all casting different ones but it's a similar example to that one I gave in 1v3.

    Purge removes 6x2 debuffs. Per second. Rapids removed 24 x2 debuffs per second specifically only roots and snares. Now purge has to remove those effects as well.

    Do you see the scale of the problem in comparison?
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on February 27, 2019 12:42PM
    NA ~ Izanerys (NB/Templar/Sorc): Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
    EU ~ Izanagi (NB/Sorc): Zerg Squad / Banana Squad
  • frostz417
    frostz417
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    P
    CyrusArya wrote: »

    @CyrusArya

    Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

    The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

    It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

    There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

    Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

    Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

    So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

    There’s nothing balanced about how ridiculous snares are and how little to no snare immunities this game has for the amount of snares and roots that are so easily spammable. They need to adjust the snares and roots because they are way too prevalent. People who don’t agree are clearly those 40k useless bots who just spam roots in snares in their 40 man zerg. An absolute potatoe.
  • Haashhtaag
    Haashhtaag
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    Rapids spammers = groups who used to bypass top boss of vHRC
  • TBois
    TBois
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    TBois wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »

    @CyrusArya

    Personally I would rather remove the Murkmire nerf for smallscale and keep the group utility role but I guess some people prefer the *** for tat route.

    The point is raids were already going to quite a great level to provide this buff, which, lets not forget, was already being removed every second. It was a completely unique and dedicated role and for me that's a shame that the diversity of that role is now no longer available.

    It would be like tanking being removed from PVE because people think raids dps and healers need to handle their own mitigation. Can you imagine the rage should dps players have to buff with their own magicka steal or provide their own orbs for resource management.

    There should be advantages of playing as a group imo. Just because people go to solo or 3 man a trial (for the added challenge) don't have those advantages you haven't convinced me that groups also shouldn't have them so far ^^

    Clearly they aren’t gonna revert Murkmire, so for sake of balance things had to be evened out. First of all, to equate a rapids spammer to a tank in PvE is a ludicrous comparison and an insult to both PvPers and PvErs. Now to address your points of substance.

    Of course there should be advantages to being in a group. Are you suggesting that without a rapids monkey there are none? Groups get copious amounts of cross support, dedicated healers, coordinated ultis from dedicated dps specs, the freedom to utilize sets and builds that those without the safety net of group support cannot viably run, and the advantage of sheer numbers. That’s plenty of advantages. Furthermore I also agree and support the idea of build and role diversity. But even though we agree on these points, you still haven’t convinced me that rapids- an ability that allowed one player spamming one skill to provide both root/snare immunity AND expedition to an entire group- was balanced. Do you realize to what lengths everyone else has to go to get either of these buffs, let alone both? Put simply, rapids gave organized ball groups far too much of an advantage over everyone else.

    So sure, groups should have some advantages (which they naturally get as a function of being grouped) and build/role diversity is a good thing. But neither of these concepts are mutually exclusive with the fact that rapids in its former state was overtuned.

    I've played stam support in large groups for a while, and frankly your comment is insulting. I play all forms of pvp including small man and solo, as you know; since, I've played against and with you. Stam support, rapids spam as you call it, takes no less skill than solo roaming if both are done at the same level.

    What do you mean both done at the same level? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing there is anything other than top tier dueling (and even then I would still put that below solo pvp) more challenging than solo pvp.

    I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?
    Current Guilds: Decibel (Small Man), Fantasia, Omni
    Former Guilds: Decibel (Large Group), Hagnado
    PC/NA
    T-Bois (AR 50 Stam Sorc) - AD

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDUkIEilHdG3v6I586WzoyA?
  • Yiko
    Yiko
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    TBois wrote: »
    I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

    Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.
  • TBois
    TBois
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    TBois wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

    Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

    I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

    The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

    Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

    It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

    I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc.

    :D

    @TBois abort abort lol

    Btw I once 1v10'd some random players on NA at 350 cp. 1vX is easy confirmed.

    It's funny. I now see people I admired for being strong opponents similarly to the inexperienced people calling for nerfs all the time because they got killed. Never thought that would happen.
    Current Guilds: Decibel (Small Man), Fantasia, Omni
    Former Guilds: Decibel (Large Group), Hagnado
    PC/NA
    T-Bois (AR 50 Stam Sorc) - AD

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDUkIEilHdG3v6I586WzoyA?
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

    Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

    I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

    The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

    Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

    It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

    I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc. Never in my whole time playing this game have I gotten so many kills and won every fight thrown at us and gotten so much ap without ever dying. By the end of the night I was considering changing my name to Second Negate because that's all I really was. It was easy. I didn't even have a group build or really any good experience beforehand yet was instantly successful. I'm sorry but if you really think being a rapids spammer takes the same amount of skill as soloing then you must not be fighting that outnumbered solo.

    Got carried one night and became an authority.

    But see that's exactly the thing. Being in a big group like that allows people to get carried.

    But the group you were in had worked to effectively fight in those large battles where you got all those kills, and they worked to keep you from dying. It's not individual effort, it's a team sport. And outside of a group like that you're on the other side of the fight, and getting wiped as a part of the uncoordinated mobs.
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • Sarousse
    Sarousse
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    Good groups stay strong, even with this nerf.

    But bad ones are getting... Destroyed. Totally. It was about time. It's so insane on Vivec PC EU.
  • LeifErickson
    LeifErickson
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    TBois wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    Yiko wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »
    I mean what I said. I see you don't agree, but do you really not understand what I said?

    Do you really not understand what he was asking for? He wanted further elaboration, as your statement was shockingly absurd, to put it mildly.

    I like how everyone who is saying this is so shocking has no experience doing both roles. I play both solo and in full raids. If I'm playing stam support on my sorc for a group. I am using buffs to protect myself and my group so that we can face overwhelming odds. This is the same end goal as playing solo, facing overwhelming odds.

    The kit you build for both is quite different, but you have similar tactics, movement, buffs, debuffs, ultimate use, timing, los. Those who believe it's just spamming rapids sounds like the inexperienced people who come and complain about 1vX'ers spamming steel tornado. I may be relying on my group members for heals and damage, but that is similar to stacking vigors when you go from solo to small man. You add a person, you try and take on more numbers because your group has the heals and damage for it. On an individual basis you have the same number of skills available to use in both instances. Your job is to make sure you are making good use of them all to maximize your effectiveness in both instances. I put an equal amount of effort in both cases. If I make a mistake in both case I can be punished. If I'm not being punished when I make a mistake I'm not actively working towards my goal because I'm obviously not fighting overwhelming odds then. The same can be said about playing solo. If I get cc'ed solo and the opposing enemy or enemies dont kill me, I'm not actively working toward my goal of facing overwhelming odds, and I'm just farming inexperienced and low level players.

    Personally I enjoy soloing and bgs more than playing in a group because of impact. When I'm in a larger group I feel my impact is less. When solo it is all about me.

    It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

    I do have experience. One night I joined a VE raid just because as a mag sorc. Never in my whole time playing this game have I gotten so many kills and won every fight thrown at us and gotten so much ap without ever dying. By the end of the night I was considering changing my name to Second Negate because that's all I really was. It was easy. I didn't even have a group build or really any good experience beforehand yet was instantly successful. I'm sorry but if you really think being a rapids spammer takes the same amount of skill as soloing then you must not be fighting that outnumbered solo.

    I have no experience raiding with VE, but I did raid at that time with Decibel who fought against VE. You would have been a great liability for VE if you fought against Decibel while you were in that group. I can also say neither VE nor Decibel won every engagement against each other. I will say nothing about how out numbered I fight, as I dont feel like I need to prove anything to you. I have a large amount of experience in both arenas unlike you who has dipped his toe in and made large generalizations.

    I have no idea how detrimental I would be against a Decibel group, but I will take your word for it. The point I was trying to make is someone who has never 1vxed before can't just go out into Cyro and be successful at 1vx. I never ball grouped before and yet our group never lost a fight. While yes I may have been carried, someone who goes out to 1vx doesn't even get that luxury.

    You said you see me the same as someone crying for nerfs yet all I did was disagree with you that 1vx and rapids role require the same skill. I'm sorry that my different opinion makes you feel that way.

    I guess I didn't do a good enough job to try to change your mind with that statement (or Yiko) but you didn't for me either. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.
  • Somnilux
    Somnilux
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    Sarousse wrote: »
    Good groups stay strong, even with this nerf.

    But bad ones are getting... Destroyed. Totally. It was about time. It's so insane on Vivec PC EU.

    I believe largely its because good groups adapted already and shifted the load to their magicka support with more purge.

    That's how meta's generally work :) The good guilds adapt quickly. It doesn't confirm one way or another whether a particular change was good or bad for the game.

    I'm hopeful you all over on EU don't have the same problems we have on NA vivec with an increasingly large issue with performance due to specific guilds stacking raw numbers to the detriment of the entire server's performance. I'm not really sure these rapids changes affected those particular style of guilds because they weren't running proper rapids spam before and tend to not stand in such a stacked formation due to sheer numbers.
    Edited by Somnilux on February 27, 2019 7:10PM
    Luxe Khanna - AD, Rank 41 Argonian Magblade Healer
    Crystala Khanna - AD, Rank 31 Khajiit Stamplar Werewolf
  • montiferus
    montiferus
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    TBois wrote: »

    It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

    I've tried both. Playing in larger groups is easier...like a lot easier. Playing effectively in small groups without support roles is much harder.
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    montiferus wrote: »
    TBois wrote: »

    It's great that yall have such strong opinions and passion about this game, but dont forget that the best educator is experience. So maybe give it a try before you bash it.

    I've tried both. Playing in larger groups is easier...like a lot easier. Playing effectively in small groups without support roles is much harder.

    It's a lot easier if you're in a large group seeking the same fights as you would in a small group. That's not the point of a large organized group, even though some seem to do that. Is 16 v 10 easier than 5 v 10? Yes. 16 v 40 isn't so easy, and 5 v 40, the 5 have to run away.
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
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    1v3
    In the first second of combat each player can cast 1 ability on you. Let's say miraculously that they all cast different abilities and they all gave 3 debuffs (being generous) that's 9 debuffs.


    20v60
    Now consider the raid. I won't say that all 60 are casting something. Because it's an unlikely situation but even if only 20 cast something. And that happens to be an aoe debuff that's 20x3x10 (ive halved the raid because its unlikely all debuffs get applied to everyone).

    I do see your perspective, and that’s why I said it’s hard to compare the two playstyles in a vacuum. Never did I comment on wether or not I think either style is necessarily more challenging or requires more skill per se. But while I can entertain that the nature of incoming debuffs has nuances, so too does the degree of mitigation against said debuffs and the individual input require to deal with them. In smaller scales, the individual players have more personal responsibility whereas in groups that responsibility is distributed among support roles. But again it’s apples to oranges so I’m cautious to make value judgements.

    Now I don’t say this next bit to be cheeky, but do you actually have footage of fighting 60 people at once in one instance? Cus id like to see what that looks like. In my experience (having played both styles), Zerg goggles are a real dynamic and often skews perceptions and accurate assesment of fights. It’s very easy to see the numbers you are engaged with in a solo/duo fight but not so much in the chaos of a big AvA fight. Numbers are very often inflated in the latter if you take the time to count banners. An actual group of 60 doesn’t look like a Zerg, it looks like a sea of people.
    ShadowProc wrote: »

    Comparing play styles is completely relevant. Quite simply the more people in your group the more dedicated utility roles there are.

    Which means the more room for mistakes. If you are 20 versus 60 and make one skill mistake you will not wipe. If you are 3 versus 1 and make a mistake you might.

    And lets be real. Drac may seek out outnumbered fights but Most raids I saw when after easy targets to farm.

    I agree with most of your points, but I’d still caution making value judgements when drawing conclusions. The two playstyles are very different and emphasize different skill sets. But when it comes to fighting outnumbered I agree with you in regards to most roles, I think Crown is an extremely demanding position though and takes a lot of skill to pull off properly.
    Edited by CyrusArya on February 27, 2019 10:03PM
    A R Y A
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  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    I suppose I could just trash talk the 40 to death, but I'd rather try killing them.
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
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