Macro in Action

VaranisArano

KoultouraS wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For everyone talking about keybindings on gaming keyboards and mice, here's the thread that discusses that: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

The first response by ZOS_MollyH clarifies that actions are supposed to be performed manually by players, not automated.

ZOS_MollyH's second response is even clearer. "The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation."


So rebinding game functions to your different keys available on your keyboard or mouse is acceptable under the TOS as long as you are still manually performing one action per keypress. Using macros to automate game functions or accomplish multiple actions with one keypress is against the TOS.

Since this is probably posted as an argument against mine, i d like to answer
I know what ZOS is saying and I understand what u say too.
(However "use of gaming gear" is not actually "programming gaming gear"and when refering to rules ,
precision wording is needed, anyway I don't want to beat this already dead horse anymore).

I said i am going to the aforementioned lengths cuz I need to prove a point.
After a certain rank, which would warrant enough game time to come into some conclusions, one would definitely have a lot to say about macros in PvP.
The ones saying it is impossible or just mocking the ones who claim the same thing I do,
are either in denial, or don't want to admit what is obvious, or -- excuse me-- are already using them.
No need to create a whole sequence, just create 2-3 steps of macro for shields/health
and just press 1-2 for main dps skills . Tadah , there you are.

And before you start the ordinary l2p bashing or gitgud constructive advisory, I am not even mad about,
just stop bullshiting us...

Er, I wasnt arguing, so much as answering your original question about the distinction between using keybinds and gaming equipment vs actually using gaming equipment to use macros.

Keybinds are okay as long as you manually input all in game actions. One action, one keypress.

Macros i.e. automating in game actions or accomplishing multiple actions for one keyless, is not allowed.

I myself have no evidence of macros being used against me in PVP, but I don't really bother with perusing my combat log either.

TARAFRAKA

Ackwalan wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Remember people, ESO is the only online game in existence where it is possible to cheat, but noone actually does!

You heard it here first

On topic: Of couse the picture in the first post is a macro. "But it only shows it once!" - come on, its not like we dont see this happen in cyrodiil every efn day. If it only happened once, he wouldn't even have noticed.

"Super skilled players" who you never saw before even tho you practically live in cyrodiil, landing "light attack+skill+bash" within milliseconds like a clockwork while jumping backwards on rocks. Yeah right.

At least stop the damn denial. It is possible to do this. OF COURSE people are doing it.

Of course it's a macro?
Nah dude..that's animation cancelling.
You're bad at understanding the basic mechanics of this game. Same with the OP.

"Its a macro" and "its animation cancelling" are not mutually exclusive. Its animation cancelling performed by a macro.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Well you have certainly removed all doubt.

Nice comeback bro. Still doesn't make the OP right.

MentalxHammer

Well considering the way the game is designed it is very easy to do a light attack, skill, bash combo in less than 0.15 seconds. I play on console so I don't have access to macros. Honestly if you can not do this than it is the result of building poor gameplay practices. And you should go back to the drawing board on how you execute your combos. At this point it should be ingrained within your head that you hit light attack before and some form of cancel after a skill, if you even have to think about doing this then you're not playing ESO properly.

Bashev

jacobabado wrote: »

Well considering the way the game is designed it is very easy to do a light attack, skill, bash combo in less than 0.15 seconds. I play on console so I don't have access to macros. Honestly if you can not do this than it is the result of building poor gameplay practices. And you should go back to the drawing board on how you execute your combos. At this point it should be ingrained within your head that you hit light attack before and some form of cancel after a skill, if you even have to think about doing this then you're not playing ESO properly.

Yes you can do it for 150ms cause you can fire your skill in 50 ms without any issues but firing a skill after light attack within 0.005 seconds it is imposible without a software.

danno8

Bashev wrote: »

jacobabado wrote: »

Well considering the way the game is designed it is very easy to do a light attack, skill, bash combo in less than 0.15 seconds. I play on console so I don't have access to macros. Honestly if you can not do this than it is the result of building poor gameplay practices. And you should go back to the drawing board on how you execute your combos. At this point it should be ingrained within your head that you hit light attack before and some form of cancel after a skill, if you even have to think about doing this then you're not playing ESO properly.

Yes you can do it for 150ms cause you can fire your skill in 50 ms without any issues but firing a skill after light attack within 0.005 seconds it is imposible without a software.

Nope. As I posted in my response earlier, on the test dummy I can start combat with a light attack which is labelled at 0.000s and the next skill can occur at the 0.004s mark just using my fingers. Or at least that is what it is labelled as in the combat log.

This stuff is extremely easy to test and verify yourself.

Mr_Walker

Sharee wrote: »

No, you are not commited.

We aren't talking about chaining skills together, that would indeed take time to perform and thus make you committed because there is a 1 sec CD between skills.

But we are talking about chaining light attack + skill + bash. That does not take any longer to perform than a simple light attack, and is done virtually instantly since all three have their own separate cooldown so they do not have to wait for each other to complete.

Ah, someone gets it....

Sabbathius

I cannot confirm or deny that what OP is posted was a macro, but I can absolutely, unequivocally say this CAN be done with a macro, incredibly easily.

Using something like Logitech or Razer mouse, it's as simple as creating a macro tied to your "1" key on the mouse, and the macro goes: depress and release left mouse button -> wait a few milliseconds->depress and release 1->wait a few milliseconds->depress and release block. The same macro would be copied for 1-5. This isn't perfect, because you still have to deal with the ability you animation cancel with a bar swap, there's always one in the rotation, but it's pretty close.

Strictly speaking, bash at the end isn't necessary, simple LA->ability already saves one mouse click per second, which significantly reduces the wear and tear on the mouse, and is a HUGE BENEFIT to people with health issues (arthritis, bad joints, or just simply elderly people and/or people who work with their hands). I have a number of guildmates who make use of macros like this in PvE, and they work great. Pre-macro and post-macro DPS is significantly improved, instantly.

Also worth noting is that older Logitech software allowed this wait time in the macro to be random within a range you specify, so that it didn't look automated. Would be DAMN near impossible to catch, because you could be very generous with the wait time, so that it doesn't look like automation at all, but it still saves you an extra mouse click per global cooldown, which is huge. Hundreds, if not thousands of clicks per session. And significantly less wear on your fingers, which my old self definitely appreciates.

People who argue that this is skill, I don't know that I agree. Is it something you learn and train yourself to do, without thought, automatically? Yes. Notice the word automatically? That's not good. And if a macro that doesn't even have conditionals can do it, then I would argue it's not a skill. At least not in the classical sense. Just like I don't consider breathing or blinking a skill.

Mr_Walker

Sabbathius wrote: »

I don't consider breathing or blinking a skill.

But it keeps my eyeballs moist and juicy!

Thogard

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

It’s easy... here’s a video where I also record my fingers for you.

For the bash weave just rebind the block button to bash.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mB08rpRaNl0

alexj4596b14_ESO

Sabbathius wrote: »

I cannot confirm or deny that what OP is posted was a macro, but I can absolutely, unequivocally say this CAN be done with a macro, incredibly easily.

Using something like Logitech or Razer mouse, it's as simple as creating a macro tied to your "1" key on the mouse, and the macro goes: depress and release left mouse button -> wait a few milliseconds->depress and release 1->wait a few milliseconds->depress and release block. The same macro would be copied for 1-5. This isn't perfect, because you still have to deal with the ability you animation cancel with a bar swap, there's always one in the rotation, but it's pretty close.

Strictly speaking, bash at the end isn't necessary, simple LA->ability already saves one mouse click per second, which significantly reduces the wear and tear on the mouse, and is a HUGE BENEFIT to people with health issues (arthritis, bad joints, or just simply elderly people and/or people who work with their hands). I have a number of guildmates who make use of macros like this in PvE, and they work great. Pre-macro and post-macro DPS is significantly improved, instantly.

Also worth noting is that older Logitech software allowed this wait time in the macro to be random within a range you specify, so that it didn't look automated. Would be DAMN near impossible to catch, because you could be very generous with the wait time, so that it doesn't look like automation at all, but it still saves you an extra mouse click per global cooldown, which is huge. Hundreds, if not thousands of clicks per session. And significantly less wear on your fingers, which my old self definitely appreciates.

People who argue that this is skill, I don't know that I agree. Is it something you learn and train yourself to do, without thought, automatically? Yes. Notice the word automatically? That's not good. And if a macro that doesn't even have conditionals can do it, then I would argue it's not a skill. At least not in the classical sense. Just like I don't consider breathing or blinking a skill.

At the end of the day. ZOS could track the average response time for players on eso from the high end to the low end in reaction times and find the range. They could then release a TOS update on macro such as the ones above as guide lines for why is acceptable and what's not for those who need it. It would be fair, based on data from the eso community and would open content up to a marginalized part of the community.

They could even require the program to be random based on the range they find from the data they have, and if a player needs the extra assist due to a physical or mental condition that limit their game play they would have to use that program to use the Marco for shear fairness.

Macros designed for cheating vs Adapting will always look different.

VaranisArano

Sabbathius wrote: »

I cannot confirm or deny that what OP is posted was a macro, but I can absolutely, unequivocally say this CAN be done with a macro, incredibly easily.

Using something like Logitech or Razer mouse, it's as simple as creating a macro tied to your "1" key on the mouse, and the macro goes: depress and release left mouse button -> wait a few milliseconds->depress and release 1->wait a few milliseconds->depress and release block. The same macro would be copied for 1-5. This isn't perfect, because you still have to deal with the ability you animation cancel with a bar swap, there's always one in the rotation, but it's pretty close.

Strictly speaking, bash at the end isn't necessary, simple LA->ability already saves one mouse click per second, which significantly reduces the wear and tear on the mouse, and is a HUGE BENEFIT to people with health issues (arthritis, bad joints, or just simply elderly people and/or people who work with their hands). I have a number of guildmates who make use of macros like this in PvE, and they work great. Pre-macro and post-macro DPS is significantly improved, instantly.

Also worth noting is that older Logitech software allowed this wait time in the macro to be random within a range you specify, so that it didn't look automated. Would be DAMN near impossible to catch, because you could be very generous with the wait time, so that it doesn't look like automation at all, but it still saves you an extra mouse click per global cooldown, which is huge. Hundreds, if not thousands of clicks per session. And significantly less wear on your fingers, which my old self definitely appreciates.

People who argue that this is skill, I don't know that I agree. Is it something you learn and train yourself to do, without thought, automatically? Yes. Notice the word automatically? That's not good. And if a macro that doesn't even have conditionals can do it, then I would argue it's not a skill. At least not in the classical sense. Just like I don't consider breathing or blinking a skill.

Mmm, science teacher here.

Breathing is an autonomic function, that is, its regulated by your autonomic nervous system and happens autonomously without any conscious effort. You cannot choose to stop breathing on your own.

Blinking is semi-autonomic. The automatic blinking that keeps your eyes lubricated happens, like breathing, without conscious thought. Blinking in reflex to an object flying at your eyes - rather similar. Of course, you can deliberately choose to blink by rapidly opening and closing your eyelids.

In contrast, clicking to light attack every second to weave with other skills? Not something your body does automatically under any circumstances. For the people who have trained themselves to the point that they can perform a rotation by muscle memory - that's exactly what that is. A skill that has been trained to the point where it is muscle memory.

Breathing, Blinking and Light Attack Weaving are not in the same category at all.

A closer comparison would be to point to learned behaviors like a musician training their breath control to hold long notes. Not everyone can learn to do it well and for those who can, they don't need to think "play these four measures on one breath."


Now, I will add that the discussion of whether or not light attack weaving is a skill or not is immaterial to whether or not using a macro to automate light attack weaving is against the TOS. Which it is, according to the ZOS reps I referenced here on this thread, so unfortunately your guildmates using macros to improve their DPS are breaking the TOS. ZOs may not be able to catch them, but they are still breaking the rules they agreed to.

Diundriel

KoultouraS wrote: »

65-70% percent of players play with macro.
The other 30-35% percent of players either think they are noobs and they just lose to "skilled(aka macro) players ,
or do use macro but call it a "skill".

I see people animation canceling in cyrodiil , on the move... going in and out the zerg ball...
they must be having something more than 20 fingers per hand...

just saw this thread and this comment made me laugh

alexj4596b14_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

I cannot confirm or deny that what OP is posted was a macro, but I can absolutely, unequivocally say this CAN be done with a macro, incredibly easily.

Using something like Logitech or Razer mouse, it's as simple as creating a macro tied to your "1" key on the mouse, and the macro goes: depress and release left mouse button -> wait a few milliseconds->depress and release 1->wait a few milliseconds->depress and release block. The same macro would be copied for 1-5. This isn't perfect, because you still have to deal with the ability you animation cancel with a bar swap, there's always one in the rotation, but it's pretty close.

Strictly speaking, bash at the end isn't necessary, simple LA->ability already saves one mouse click per second, which significantly reduces the wear and tear on the mouse, and is a HUGE BENEFIT to people with health issues (arthritis, bad joints, or just simply elderly people and/or people who work with their hands). I have a number of guildmates who make use of macros like this in PvE, and they work great. Pre-macro and post-macro DPS is significantly improved, instantly.

Also worth noting is that older Logitech software allowed this wait time in the macro to be random within a range you specify, so that it didn't look automated. Would be DAMN near impossible to catch, because you could be very generous with the wait time, so that it doesn't look like automation at all, but it still saves you an extra mouse click per global cooldown, which is huge. Hundreds, if not thousands of clicks per session. And significantly less wear on your fingers, which my old self definitely appreciates.

People who argue that this is skill, I don't know that I agree. Is it something you learn and train yourself to do, without thought, automatically? Yes. Notice the word automatically? That's not good. And if a macro that doesn't even have conditionals can do it, then I would argue it's not a skill. At least not in the classical sense. Just like I don't consider breathing or blinking a skill.

Mmm, science teacher here.

Breathing is an autonomic function, that is, its regulated by your autonomic nervous system and happens autonomously without any conscious effort. You cannot choose to stop breathing on your own.

Blinking is semi-autonomic. The automatic blinking that keeps your eyes lubricated happens, like breathing, without conscious thought. Blinking in reflex to an object flying at your eyes - rather similar. Of course, you can deliberately choose to blink by rapidly opening and closing your eyelids.

In contrast, clicking to light attack every second to weave with other skills? Not something your body does automatically under any circumstances. For the people who have trained themselves to the point that they can perform a rotation by muscle memory - that's exactly what that is. A skill that has been trained to the point where it is muscle memory.

Breathing, Blinking and Light Attack Weaving are not in the same category at all.

A closer comparison would be to point to learned behaviors like a musician training their breath control to hold long notes. Not everyone can learn to do it well and for those who can, they don't need to think "play these four measures on one breath."


Now, I will add that the discussion of whether or not light attack weaving is a skill or not is immaterial to whether or not using a macro to automate light attack weaving is against the TOS. Which it is, according to the ZOS reps I referenced here on this thread, so unfortunately your guildmates using macros to improve their DPS are breaking the TOS. ZOs may not be able to catch them, but they are still breaking the rules they agreed to.

Then what do people who can't perform the same as an average human do to be helpful in content? Is it really wrong or just a law that needs refinement?

Sabbathius

VaranisArano wrote: »

so unfortunately your guildmates using macros to improve their DPS are breaking the TOS. ZOs may not be able to catch them, but they are still breaking the rules they agreed to.

Much appreciate the writeup, but as far as this last big goes, how fare are we willing to take this?


For example, ESO fires abilities on-release. That is, when you press 1, until you release it, nothing will happen. Is it cheating to make a macro that when you press 1, whether you release it or not physically, the macro goes "depress and release 1". It'll be a fraction of a second difference, but still a measurable difference, over an hour's session you'll save a few seconds, if not more, with this macro. Is this cheating? Arguably, it is, right?

Well, then, how about older hardware that doesn't detect keypress and key release separately, hardware that sees the keypress as a combo - depress and release - automatically? Is that cheating? Well, if the above macro is cheating, then using such hardware is probably cheating also.

Like...how far are we going to take this? Is using a "short" keyboard, where the downward travel distance of the key before keypress is registered is shorter than an average mechanical keyboard, would that be cheating? You're getting keystrokes much quicker with such a keyboard, compared to a standard one. It absolutely does, verifiably so, improve your performance. Is that cheating? Again, by strictest technical definition, yes.

OK, so now we have to look at all keyboards, don't we, and decide who's cheating? Because red switches vs black switches are very different. What about clicky switches versus tactile versus linear switches? Is someone using reds with linear cheating when playing someone with black clickies?

See what I mean? It's a spectrum. Where do we stop, before it gets out of hand? I'd argue removing animation canceling and making weaving automatic would solve ALL of these, in one fell swoop, AND increase the QoL for anyone who isn't exactly a spring chicken any longer.

Another argument for this is to avoid discriminating against partially disabled. We do have the ability to change the colors of telegraphs and such, for people with less-than-great vision. Many games these days also offer options for color blindness. But what about sheer mobility issues? A 60-year-old with arthritis isn't going to be bash-canceling, no matter what. This creates a barrier of entry for them, both in PvE and PvP, that they cannot go beyond with the way their body is. Would macroing be OK for that? Or do we tell these people to screw off and play something else? One of my guildies last year was in a car crash, and basically had a few working fingers. He macroed his weasely black guts out, didn't get banned (afaik? actually come to think of it I haven't seen him in a while). I myself, a few years back, messed up my hand quite badly and had to switch to a single-bar pet Sorc, where I was only using literally 3 keys, because that was the best I could do. Didn't macro (didn't need to, Sorc was so stupid I could flawless vMA with 3 working fingers), but would it have been the end of the world if I did?

I dunno. To me, manual light attacks are just stupid. These are autoattacks in ANY game released since...forever. I'm thinking back to EVE Online, released in 2003, and WoW released in 2004. They are as different as it gets - one is spaceships floating in jello, and the other is elves and orcs. Both have autoattacks. Both work fine. Both would have SUCKED if we had to do those things manually. Big time. So I do NOT see the need for ESO, released in 2016, to have this nonsense on manual control. And animation canceling is just logically flawed - creating tons of animations, only to have players cancel them? Makes no damn sense. Not to mention animations are meant to inform us what is happening. Imagine PvE in this game, if all bosses started animation canceling. Would that be fun? Not really. So why would it be fun for players?

This stuff is, honestly, by far the biggest turnoff I experienced playing this game. I'd much rather they improved this aspect of the game, and shift focus to higher tier decision making. Not bashing the keys and mouse like they owe me money.

KoultouraS

Diundriel wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

65-70% percent of players play with macro.
The other 30-35% percent of players either think they are noobs and they just lose to "skilled(aka macro) players ,
or do use macro but call it a "skill".

I see people animation canceling in cyrodiil , on the move... going in and out the zerg ball...
they must be having something more than 20 fingers per hand...

just saw this thread and this comment made me laugh

One is pleased to have served , Sir...

Thogard wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

It’s easy... here’s a video where I also record my fingers for you.

For the bash weave just rebind the block button to bash.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mB08rpRaNl0

hehehe,....
If you do this in Vivec EU while moving and protecting yourslef with shields/vigor ect , then you might have a case.
(still doesn't prove others don't use macros btw.)
Otherwise you only do this static in front of a static non attacking dummie. And that's all about there is.
(vivec EU is a joke btw...)

idk

I really find this thread so entertaining since so many people seem to think macros are required to play this game with skill. The lengths they have gone to in here to twist things is truly fascinating. It is though they cannot conceive that there are players that actually work to get good at this game. Thx for the great distraction with all the diversion presented here.

To those of us that know better, that what the OP presented does not prove anything and that we have players who are actually good because they are good at playing the game themselves I do not think there is anything we can say to convince those who are still trying to figure it out or choose not to. It is just to easy for some to suggest the use of macros is the reason some players are better at the game.

Rikumaru

For the people who think pressing 3-5 keys in certain orders is impossible mid combat, I advise you look at players who play rhythm games. And no, those players do not use macros to play those games.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Rikumaru wrote: »

For the people who think pressing 3-5 keys in certain orders is impossible mid combat, I advise you look at players who play rhythm games. And no, those players do not use macros to play those games.

That not what anyone is saying....a person with complete control of their faculties would have no problem with this. A person who is missing fingers, or can't process information and coordinate information in a high-speed rythemic matter for example someone with ADHD or ADD who have problems with coordinate and motor control.

Bashev

Thogard wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

It’s easy... here’s a video where I also record my fingers for you.

For the bash weave just rebind the block button to bash.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mB08rpRaNl0

@Thogard can you post time stamp of the attacks too? I bet you skill doesnt hit 0.005 seconds after your light attack.

Rikumaru

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

For the people who think pressing 3-5 keys in certain orders is impossible mid combat, I advise you look at players who play rhythm games. And no, those players do not use macros to play those games.

That not what anyone is saying....a person with complete control of their faculties would have no problem with this. A person who is missing fingers, or can't process information and coordinate information in a high-speed rythemic matter for example someone with ADHD or ADD who have problems with coordinate and motor control.

I agree with that though I saw a video of a player WITHOUT HANDS reach a high elo in CS GO. But for the average person with problems like that yeah, I wouldn't expect them to but do you really think ZOS should balance the game around players which cannot play the game correctly due to lacking said body parts? It's not as if you are locked out of content if you can't animation cancel, you can still do all the content in the game, it's just you lose out on some decent bonuses from weaving.

Sharee

[nevermind]

alexj4596b14_ESO

Rikumaru wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

For the people who think pressing 3-5 keys in certain orders is impossible mid combat, I advise you look at players who play rhythm games. And no, those players do not use macros to play those games.

That not what anyone is saying....a person with complete control of their faculties would have no problem with this. A person who is missing fingers, or can't process information and coordinate information in a high-speed rythemic matter for example someone with ADHD or ADD who have problems with coordinate and motor control.

I agree with that though I saw a video of a player WITHOUT HANDS reach a high elo in CS GO. But for the average person with problems like that yeah, I wouldn't expect them to but do you really think ZOS should balance the game around players which cannot play the game correctly due to lacking said body parts? It's not as if you are locked out of content if you can't animation cancel, you can still do all the content in the game, it's just you lose out on some decent bonuses from weaving.

Game play wise your right there is no "wall" stoping them from playing. But as a general community without any previous knowlage of the issue if a player with this issue came into your vet trail because there was set he needed or was in a BG and every time he was in the group he couldn't pull the weight expected by the community or ZoS depending; Eventually he would get a name for himself in those communitys for being bad. He is effectively walled off from content due to this. This is not done intentionally it just that people don't have 4 hours or whatever the time is on vet trials every raid weekend when you can do it in two or if in BGs case you lose and your looking for a specific reward you need to win to get that reward. For BGs of course this is extrem but as an example it's possible.

No I would not expect ZoS or any game company to balance the game around this and don't want them to, however it's not like can't we can't adapt the TOS to be able to accommodate this. ZoS has the ability to determine what ranage is apporate for a macro to equal the play field. They just have to look at incoming response time while people actively play the game or could request from random members of the community to submit a the most resent time stamped combat log to determine what the average response time is for animation canceling and then give a rule set for macros to accommodate this. Anything outside of this set of rules would be considered cheating and could be harshly enforced. A poster above spoke about how some softwares have a random setting within a set range is also available. This would also even the playing field for those who don't use macros and makes things less robotic.

There are solutions it's just hard so no one see them.

Juhasow

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

Have You watched elite players in games like Fortnite ? If You think that doing constant LA+skill+bash in ESO while moving is beyond human conditions then better call NASA that You've found some alien species and some of them are streaming Fortnite disguised as humans. Like seriously things that people can do in ESO are few times slower then in fortnite where for example someone will build 2-3 walls edit one of them aim and shoot enemy perfectly in the head all of that in 2 seconds while also moving and jumping. And You know those people are doing it also in tournaments where they're monitored so there is no possibility for macros. Fact that You're unable to do something doesnt mean everyone else is also unable to do it or that everyone else needs support of 3rd party software for that.

Ackwalan

Juhasow wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

Have You watched elite players in games like Fortnite ? If You think that doing constant LA+skill+bash in ESO while moving is beyond human conditions then better call NASA that You've found some alien species and some of them are streaming Fortnite disguised as humans. Like seriously things that people can do in ESO are few times slower then in fortnite where for example someone will build 2-3 walls edit one of them aim and shoot enemy perfectly in the head all of that in 2 seconds while also moving and jumping. And You know those people are doing it also in tournaments where they're monitored so there is no possibility for macros. Fact that You're unable to do something doesnt mean everyone else is also unable to do it or that everyone else needs support of 3rd party software for that.

You can literally youtube gamers caught cheating, and then throw that statement away.

Noctus

this is what my hand looks like playing ESO. back in my days the hand was a macro.

(thats the original gunz where u rly HAD to be like this to win any match)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6YvjFaoZY0

Juhasow

damtotb16_ESO wrote: »

This is a snip from BG PC/EU.
You can see a typical combo execution of this nb doing 3 attacks( Light attack+ surprise attack + Bash) within 0.15 sec on a moving target. Convince me this is not done by 3rd party software. I reported the player to Zenimax but since they did not care to reply me I will post it here
Toughts?

It's not done by 3rd party software @damtotb16_ESO . If it would be then the intervals between each hit would be the same and as we can see they're not. Not only that but in next line of attacks his time space between light attack and skill is 0,006 sec when in previous it was 0,004 so either he had some ultra complicated macro that have different intervals for each type of attack and combo he is doing or he is just doing it manually. Everyone who is doing animation cancelling manually for longer knows it's not macroed combo You've linked. Even the fact that there are 2 different time spaces between attacks with 1 being very small and 1 being larger is excatly what is happening when You're manually animation cancel. Just look at this linked picture You can see clear similarities. I did that parse without any help of 3rd party software and most of the time I was closing LA+skill+bash combo withing 0,1 second. If You think I did that parse with the use of macro go on and report me. Side note : while I was doing it I was also moving around skeleton with the change of direction every 2 combos to partiallly imitate scenario where target is moving.

VaranisArano

Sabbathius wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

so unfortunately your guildmates using macros to improve their DPS are breaking the TOS. ZOs may not be able to catch them, but they are still breaking the rules they agreed to.

Much appreciate the writeup, but as far as this last big goes, how fare are we willing to take this?


For example, ESO fires abilities on-release. That is, when you press 1, until you release it, nothing will happen. Is it cheating to make a macro that when you press 1, whether you release it or not physically, the macro goes "depress and release 1". It'll be a fraction of a second difference, but still a measurable difference, over an hour's session you'll save a few seconds, if not more, with this macro. Is this cheating? Arguably, it is, right?

Well, then, how about older hardware that doesn't detect keypress and key release separately, hardware that sees the keypress as a combo - depress and release - automatically? Is that cheating? Well, if the above macro is cheating, then using such hardware is probably cheating also.

Like...how far are we going to take this? Is using a "short" keyboard, where the downward travel distance of the key before keypress is registered is shorter than an average mechanical keyboard, would that be cheating? You're getting keystrokes much quicker with such a keyboard, compared to a standard one. It absolutely does, verifiably so, improve your performance. Is that cheating? Again, by strictest technical definition, yes.

OK, so now we have to look at all keyboards, don't we, and decide who's cheating? Because red switches vs black switches are very different. What about clicky switches versus tactile versus linear switches? Is someone using reds with linear cheating when playing someone with black clickies?

See what I mean? It's a spectrum. Where do we stop, before it gets out of hand? I'd argue removing animation canceling and making weaving automatic would solve ALL of these, in one fell swoop, AND increase the QoL for anyone who isn't exactly a spring chicken any longer.

Another argument for this is to avoid discriminating against partially disabled. We do have the ability to change the colors of telegraphs and such, for people with less-than-great vision. Many games these days also offer options for color blindness. But what about sheer mobility issues? A 60-year-old with arthritis isn't going to be bash-canceling, no matter what. This creates a barrier of entry for them, both in PvE and PvP, that they cannot go beyond with the way their body is. Would macroing be OK for that? Or do we tell these people to screw off and play something else? One of my guildies last year was in a car crash, and basically had a few working fingers. He macroed his weasely black guts out, didn't get banned (afaik? actually come to think of it I haven't seen him in a while). I myself, a few years back, messed up my hand quite badly and had to switch to a single-bar pet Sorc, where I was only using literally 3 keys, because that was the best I could do. Didn't macro (didn't need to, Sorc was so stupid I could flawless vMA with 3 working fingers), but would it have been the end of the world if I did?

I dunno. To me, manual light attacks are just stupid. These are autoattacks in ANY game released since...forever. I'm thinking back to EVE Online, released in 2003, and WoW released in 2004. They are as different as it gets - one is spaceships floating in jello, and the other is elves and orcs. Both have autoattacks. Both work fine. Both would have SUCKED if we had to do those things manually. Big time. So I do NOT see the need for ESO, released in 2016, to have this nonsense on manual control. And animation canceling is just logically flawed - creating tons of animations, only to have players cancel them? Makes no damn sense. Not to mention animations are meant to inform us what is happening. Imagine PvE in this game, if all bosses started animation canceling. Would that be fun? Not really. So why would it be fun for players?

This stuff is, honestly, by far the biggest turnoff I experienced playing this game. I'd much rather they improved this aspect of the game, and shift focus to higher tier decision making. Not bashing the keys and mouse like they owe me money.

Look, you can bring up whatever examples you like, but I've already posted the links to several dev comments about macros. Using macros to automate in game functions that you are intended to perform manually (in this case, light attack weaving) is against the TOS. Specifically, you'll find that this thread speaks to gaming mice and keyboards, though not specifically to your examples: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

If you need more specific answers about your examples, I highly recommend that you either contact Support to make sure they are okay or you go searching in the forums to see if the Devs have said anything further about them.

As for your guildies and their situation, I'm going to repeat myself from earlier this thread.

VaranisArano wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Are macros even against the rules?

Yep.

In the TOS: https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service#_EN_Toc_09

9. YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES

You further agree not to access, create, or provide any other means through which the Services, including, but not limited to, any Game(s), may be used or accessed by others, such as through server emulators.

You may not participate, take part in, initiate, or engage in actions that impose an unreasonable or disproportionate load on the infrastructure hosting the Game(s) and/or Services.

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

So mouse and key boardacros are also against the rules then?

Macros would be against the rules, yes. ZOS wants us to be actively controlling our characters. Automation is against the TOS. In the past, they've stated that even rubberbanding/taping your controller is not acceptable. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3858917#Comment_3858917

That really sucks for people with intellectual or physical restrictions who could use them for light attack weaving.

Unfortunately, while macros could be used as an adaptive tool for some gamers, its very prone to abuse by players who do not need adaptive aids. That abuse makes it prohibitive for ZOS to allow players to use macros and other forms of automation.

People. We're why we can't have nice things.

Noctus

Juhasow wrote: »

damtotb16_ESO wrote: »

This is a snip from BG PC/EU.
You can see a typical combo execution of this nb doing 3 attacks( Light attack+ surprise attack + Bash) within 0.15 sec on a moving target. Convince me this is not done by 3rd party software. I reported the player to Zenimax but since they did not care to reply me I will post it here
Toughts?

It's not done by 3rd party software. If it would be then the intervals between each hit would be the same and as we can see they're not. Not only that but in next line of attacks his time space between light attack and skill is 0,006 sec when in previous it was 0,004 so either he had some ultra complicated macro that have different intervals for each type of attack and combo he is doing or he is just doing it manually. Everyone who is doing animation cancelling manually for longer knows it's not macroed combo You've linked. Even the fact that there are 2 different time spaces between attacks with 1 being very small and 1 being larger is excatly what is happening when You're manually animation cancel. Just look at this linked picture You can see clear similarities. I did that parse without any help of 3rd party software and most of the time I was closing LA+skill+bash combo withing 0,1 second. If You think I did that parse with the use of macro go on and report me. Side note : while I was doing it I was also moving around skeleton with the change of direction every 2 combos.

omg between ur lightattack and bash are 0 seconds u monster

Ackwalan

Noctus wrote: »

this is what my hand looks like playing ESO. back in my days the hand was a macro.

(thats the original gunz where u rly HAD to be like this to win any match)

We so need the LOL button back.

Juhasow

Ackwalan wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

Katinas wrote: »

Skills have a 1 second global skill cooldown.
Light attacks have a 1 second global light attack cooldown.
Bash has a 1 second global bash cooldown.

All of them are separate and unrelated. You cannot cast a skill AND light attack, or cast a skill AND bash, or light attack AND bash in exactly same moment in time, but you can do each individual action on their own cooldowns. Go try it it out yourself on a target dummy. You can execute a combination of light attack + skill + bash in as close to 1 second as your reaction and reflexes allow you to. It could be as quick as 0,001 second in between all three actions, so the combo of light attack + skill + bash could land in 0,002 seconds. Noobs who claim that it is impossible to do two actions with less than one second inbetween them should be looked at with pity. It is the same type of actions that share a one second global cooldown. Skill GCD, light attack GCD and bash GCD are three completely separate cooldowns. You cannot do two bashes in less than 1 second or two skills in less than one second, but as mentioned before a combination of two or three actions that do not share a common cooldown can be done in as fast as you manage to.

And ofc one can do that, while moving with wsad ---with left hand fingers---(which in pvp this is constant) , checking (sometimes doing a 360 cyrcle with mouse) for foes within sight, and direct his/her toon towards or out of fighting situations---with left hand fingers---.

There might be a new breed of men, but afaik , people have only 5 fingers per hand.
And a set of 5 is already occupied holding a mouse...

Have You watched elite players in games like Fortnite ? If You think that doing constant LA+skill+bash in ESO while moving is beyond human conditions then better call NASA that You've found some alien species and some of them are streaming Fortnite disguised as humans. Like seriously things that people can do in ESO are few times slower then in fortnite where for example someone will build 2-3 walls edit one of them aim and shoot enemy perfectly in the head all of that in 2 seconds while also moving and jumping. And You know those people are doing it also in tournaments where they're monitored so there is no possibility for macros. Fact that You're unable to do something doesnt mean everyone else is also unable to do it or that everyone else needs support of 3rd party software for that.

You can literally youtube gamers caught cheating, and then throw that statement away.

How many of them were caught cheating during tournaments ? The context wasn't about wheter people are cheating or not but wheter certain combos are possible to achieve manually in ESO or not. Those fortnite players prove during tournaments it's possible to perform even more complicated combos perfectly without any help of 3rd party software.