Veteran players farming Kyne / <50lvl BGs - please read ZOS!

ColoursYouHave

Another thing to remember is that most of the veteran players farming noobs in Kyne likely started out as noobs in BWB getting farmed by veteran players too. I can't speak for everybody, but personally going through that made me a better player, and I'd be willing to bet that the same applies to a lot of players who spent a lot of time in Kyne too. If new players aren't challenged in Kyne they're not going to get significantly better, and they're just going to get steamrolled even harder once they move to vet PVP. We can argue about when the steamrolling should happen, but there is no gradual learning curve for PVP in this game, so every new player is going to get steamrolled sooner or later. Learning through defeat is how you become a better player, and if people can't deal with getting defeated in Kyne, I doubt they are any more likely to be able to deal with getting defeated in vet PVP, and probably won't stick around in PVP for very long regardless of whether or not there are veteran players in Kyne.

All that being said, I do believe that veteran players, especially those in Kyne, who care about the longevity of PVP have a responsibility of helping new players where they can, through means such as inviting them to guilds and teaching them how to fight, helping them with gear, helping them with builds, etc.. Given that I don't play much these days, I can't say how common that is in Kyne right now, but I know that when I was playing regularly a couple years ago there were tons of veteran players willing to help new players and keep the flow of players getting into PVP moving. All I can say is that I hope that the current noob-bashin' Kyne veterans are also willing to help those noobs learn and grow as players.

Commancho

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

....

In the other words:
It's good for new players to be steamrolled by vets in Kyne.
It's bad for vets to be steamrolled by other vets in 50+ xD

Fur_like_snow

No getting rolled is good for both parties. You learn more from the losses than from the wins.

ColoursYouHave

Commancho wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

....

In the other words:
It's good for new players to be steamrolled by vets in Kyne.
It's bad for vets to be steamrolled by other vets in 50+ xD

That's an awfully disingenuous conclusion to draw from my comment, but let's roll with it. Let's say that there are no experienced players in Kyne, and the campaign is filled with new players fumbling around spamming light attacks wearing green or blue non-set gear. Are these players really ever going to get significantly better fighting each other? I'm sure some players will still rise above others, but without any frame of reference for what good PVP looks like, these new players are never actually going to become good PVPers. Presumably, players will eventually decide to venture into vet PVP, and while you may consider them "veteran" players in terms of the amount of time spent PVPing, in terms of skill they would still largely be new players. For clarity, let's replace "veteran" with "skilled" and "new" with "unskilled" (since terms like "new" and "veteran" can be more associated with time spent, and what we're really looking at here is actual skill). While skill generally comes with time, if players are never challenged they're not going to gain much skill regardless of how much time they invest.

So we wouldn't really be comparing new players getting steamrolled by vets in Kyne to vets get steamrolled by vets in vet-PVP, we'd be comparing unskilled players getting steamrolled by skilled players in Kyne to unskilled players getting steamrolled by skilled players in vet-PVP. I'm not saying that either scenario is good or bad, but the takeaway here is that in both cases, it is unskilled players getting steamrolled by skilled players, and the only difference is where it is happening. And that was the point of my comment that you completely missed; in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't going to make much of a difference. One way or another, unskilled players are going to get steamrolled by skilled players, and learning from that is the only way people are going to get better. If getting steamrolled in Kyne is enough to make players give up on PVP, why would them getting steamrolled in a vet campaign be any different? When people realize the large skill gap they need to cover to compete in PVP, they'll decide whether or not they want to pursue it, and I doubt the specific campaign players are in when that happens will make much of a difference.

And that brings me to what I believe to be a more important point, which is that if people really want to encourage new players to PVP, skilled/experienced players need to be willing to help those players learn and grow. Following my premise that what really discourages new players from committing to PVP is a large skill gap, a better solution to retaining potential PVPers than arbitrarily separating people is to have a helpful, supportive, welcoming community who is willing to help new players, which can be done in countless ways. Things such as bringing new players into a guild, giving/crafting them gear, helping with their builds, teaching them how to fight, answering questions, and even just being friendly towards them. As a solo player I never really had any influence through guilds, but I always enjoyed talking to new players, crafting them gear, giving them build advice, teaching them game mechanics, etc. Again, since I don't play much anymore I can't speak to the current state of how helpful the community is in any campaign, but if there is a problem with skilled players in Kyne, it isn't their mere presence, it is that they are unwilling to help unskilled players grow.

Commancho

PVP under lvl 50 is a place to learn basis and to see for a new players if they like PVP part of the game. It takes aprox 30-40h playtime for a new players to get to lvl 50. That's enaugh to learn mechanics without a need somebody to hold your hand and if they decide that they want to learn more they should simply join PVP guilds 50+ instead of staying forever in Kyne. Apply your own advice about being a better player when playing against better opponents and leave Kyne already dude....

JamilaRaj

Let's be frank here. Genuine noobs in the noob campaign are rare and always have been (back in 2014, then Blackwater Blade, freshly added non-vet campaign, could have peak population per faction as low as 10-15 players during prime time, of which 90% were in fact vets on alts), because noobs think of it as PvP for kids and are preoccupied with getting to max level with least effort to be able to participate in adult PvP in Vivec with all the pr0 skillz0rs, therefore they are probably grinding dolmens with smug sneers, thinking how clever they are. If anyone told them that the least crap campaign is Kyne, they would not believe it, that is totally non-communicable and everyone has to find out for himself on his second, third or whatever toon.

So do not worry about poor noobs being farmed by vets. That the gear gap is real and occasional genuine noobs can not compete is another matter. But it has been this way since the Orsinium patch, which scaled noob chars up along with their gear, presumably to enable ZOS to sell the same DLC to players of all level ranges. That is how ZOS cares about the noob campaign, but let me say that if it just does not give a !@#$% and damages the campaign through side effects, we are still better off that way than if it tried to deliberately design it, because as mentioned above, campaigns that are deliberately designed suck even more.

p00tx

Lumsdenml wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

I have to admit that I don't understand your number/gear formatting, so I'm not sure how to directly answer your question. I'm referring to the players who have high level mains with maxed out crafting and can craft the most effective gear possible, which then enables them to farm the best gear possible on their alt, while newer players are in there on the garbage they've picked up from overland questing. In Vivec, when we see a bunch of max lvl players gang up on a lower level, we call that "punching babies", because that's what it amounts to. It doesn't make anyone a great player or give them any sort of prestige because they can come in with well-tuned gear and years of experience, and wipe a bunch of brand new players in green and blue gear and who barely have a clue what they're doing. Especially when it's in a server specifically designed to give new players a place to learn.

It's low hanging fruit and it looks weak.

Ydrisselle

p00tx wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

I have to admit that I don't understand your number/gear formatting, so I'm not sure how to directly answer your question. I'm referring to the players who have high level mains with maxed out crafting and can craft the most effective gear possible, which then enables them to farm the best gear possible on their alt, while newer players are in there on the garbage they've picked up from overland questing. In Vivec, when we see a bunch of max lvl players gang up on a lower level, we call that "punching babies", because that's what it amounts to. It doesn't make anyone a great player or give them any sort of prestige because they can come in with well-tuned gear and years of experience, and wipe a bunch of brand new players in green and blue gear and who barely have a clue what they're doing. Especially when it's in a server specifically designed to give new players a place to learn.

It's low hanging fruit and it looks weak.

That means 2 full 5-piece sets and one set for the last 2 pieces of gear.

TequilaFire

p00tx wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

I have to admit that I don't understand your number/gear formatting, so I'm not sure how to directly answer your question. I'm referring to the players who have high level mains with maxed out crafting and can craft the most effective gear possible, which then enables them to farm the best gear possible on their alt, while newer players are in there on the garbage they've picked up from overland questing. In Vivec, when we see a bunch of max lvl players gang up on a lower level, we call that "punching babies", because that's what it amounts to. It doesn't make anyone a great player or give them any sort of prestige because they can come in with well-tuned gear and years of experience, and wipe a bunch of brand new players in green and blue gear and who barely have a clue what they're doing. Especially when it's in a server specifically designed to give new players a place to learn.

It's low hanging fruit and it looks weak.

In the beginning when I could not craft a set, guild mates always crafted me a set sometimes even free.
So if you socialize when new you can easily get what you need.

Lumsdenml

Ydrisselle wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

I have to admit that I don't understand your number/gear formatting, so I'm not sure how to directly answer your question. I'm referring to the players who have high level mains with maxed out crafting and can craft the most effective gear possible, which then enables them to farm the best gear possible on their alt, while newer players are in there on the garbage they've picked up from overland questing. In Vivec, when we see a bunch of max lvl players gang up on a lower level, we call that "punching babies", because that's what it amounts to. It doesn't make anyone a great player or give them any sort of prestige because they can come in with well-tuned gear and years of experience, and wipe a bunch of brand new players in green and blue gear and who barely have a clue what they're doing. Especially when it's in a server specifically designed to give new players a place to learn.

It's low hanging fruit and it looks weak.

That means 2 full 5-piece sets and one set for the last 2 pieces of gear.

Yep, that exactly

xan4silkb14_ESO

I started in Kyne as a genuine noob about 2-3 days after purchasing ESO. Sure, I died plenty if caught out by myself, and even when grouped. But Kyne has siege. And a noob on siege can still take out a "vet". Also, I figure, for all the more skillful players on opposing factions there are just as many skillful players on my faction to help me.

p00tx

Ydrisselle wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

I have to admit that I don't understand your number/gear formatting, so I'm not sure how to directly answer your question. I'm referring to the players who have high level mains with maxed out crafting and can craft the most effective gear possible, which then enables them to farm the best gear possible on their alt, while newer players are in there on the garbage they've picked up from overland questing. In Vivec, when we see a bunch of max lvl players gang up on a lower level, we call that "punching babies", because that's what it amounts to. It doesn't make anyone a great player or give them any sort of prestige because they can come in with well-tuned gear and years of experience, and wipe a bunch of brand new players in green and blue gear and who barely have a clue what they're doing. Especially when it's in a server specifically designed to give new players a place to learn.

It's low hanging fruit and it looks weak.

That means 2 full 5-piece sets and one set for the last 2 pieces of gear.

Thank you

OtarTheMad

I have been running in Kyne a lot lately since I have been trying to make some EP characters and being a vet of PvP I try to teach in zone rather than berate but you can only teach so much especially in situations where the new players don't seem to be listening. I am not one of those players who runs around in gold gear or anything either. I usually am wearing two 5 piece sets (crafted) and a 2 piece set which is usually blue, enchants sometimes I make them green or blue or just buy them from the enchant vendor and my jewelry is always white.

I can see how always getting run over can turn players off from PvP but really in lowbie all you have to do more often than not is just ask for a group and you'll get invited to a guild running in that campaign. I don't see a huge problem with vet players running around in Kyne really, always seems to be a good mix of new and old. I think it's a good place to get your feet wet and get experienced with PvP because the vet campaigns aren't a whole lot different really. Whether it's Kyne or Vivec or Shor or Sotha or whatever they all have their positives and negatives. They all have idiots no one on each faction can stand, trolls and "elite" players doing shady things, just got to have fun with it and learn.

Bhelen

I'll be honest I wanted to get alliance war passives before hitting 50 on my new toon so I "twinked" up a character for the first time despite playing the game for years. Went 46 kills and 0 deaths one game and a dozen BGs later my kill counter addon stood at 200 kills and 6 deaths. Got into a conversation with a new player about how I was doing so well to find he wasn't even using full gear sets or gold weapons which to me has always been a basic requirement in a CP campaign.

The biggest obstacle for him to compete was crafting - he had none of it leveled and no traits researched. He thought sets weren't needed for below 50. This isn't even getting into nuances like animation canceling and rotations.The essential problem here is MMR is character based leaving this brand new player in a BG where people who have far more experience and practice than him. I'd never get matched with someone that new if I was on my main.

I feel a little bit guilty over it but the worst part is people are doing the same thing I was doing in premade groups and re-creating the same character over and over again to stay in the lowbie camp. Fixing BGs would be a simple overhaul of the MMR system. Cyrodill is a bit more tricky but something could possibly be done with battle spirit - or just simply a better loot system the allowed low level players to get decent sets without crafting.

ChunkyCat

Shame on you.

MrRudiculous

I felt the same after playing in Kyne for a while, though i've only played this game for a year and a half. I orignally only went into pvp because of the whole 'you need vigor and caltrops' malarky. When i started playing, BGs didn't exist and i was 100% into PvE. Kyne for me was fun at the time it lasted, i had a blast playing cyrodiil (less pvping, more siege/capture, even led a couple of PuGs) but obviously i was more annoyed about 'tryhards' the longer i played there (rerolled i think 12 chars) of course i got frustrated at it but i learned from fighting them to be able to hold my own against more experienced players and how *** LoS can be.

That experience helped me in sotha when i moved there last year, i still get absolutely destroyed in pvp but it pushed my interest into prefering PvP over keep captures etc, i'm not one to get mad about being rolled over again and again but atleast i can be last to die in a PuG if it comes to it (without avoiding the fight).

I think (90% unsure/pure assumption) that the tryhards from when i was in kyne have now slowly transitioned to the likes of sotha since i started seeing them there more frequently. I recently went back to kyne DC to level a PvE and maybe PvP magden/healer, most times i tried to go back, the campaign was just empty apart from AD being the most populated. I currently have 2 chars in kyne, at prime time, i can go in and have some fun with PuGs (yes i know...) And its nice to see some old names from when i first started out there about a year ago but i wouldn't stay there now because 1. Im lazy asf and 2. A lot of my friends/guildies are in sotha albeit opposite alliances but still its fun giving them the t-bag when it comes to it. 3. I've become attached to my characters 15/15.

Though i agree with werewolves in BGs both prevet and vet, they need to tone that down a little and i've played WW in both, they are very stronk.

Mauz

You will always have ppl who only go for the easy win. They dont want ballanced fights just easy wins.

Only thing which is wrong in kyne is that stats scale WAY too much with gear quality.

When everyone had the same stats low lvl campaign was the best pvp experience I ever had.

Dont know why zos seems to do everything to demotivate new ppl fromm pvp...

RDMyers65b14_ESO

I get questioned a lot about having my low level characters on Vivec. Yeah, I may only be level 24 but I want my CP. The worst part is having a low level mount.

KhajiitFelix

Delete PvP. Problem solved.

Enkil

I came back to game last year and have been playing in Kyne mostly. All of my toons are healers and I try to give guidance to those that need it on the basics of Cyro and siege. Many have already made lots of good points and mentioned glaring problems but some of the suggested fixes are a bit draconian. I suggest...

Twinks that farm newbs:
Re-implementing hard caps just for Kyne and <50 BGs might help.

Gear issues:
Offer a selection of quality blue PvP focused set pieces to choose from with certain milestones such as at each PvP rank (1-50), and maybe with the completion of certain achievements such as taking 1st oupost, town, keep, resource, etc.. Similar to rewards of the worthy but less random and more akin to the XP leveling system where u get to choose certain “prophet” blue gear at milestones. (if possible, could make this basic PvP gear level up with the player’s level).

Some of this type gear could also be granted thru the tutorial quest to give the player basic starter blue sets and weapon to chose from depending on healer, dps, or tank role.

The thought here is like when you join the military, they give u basic gear, and as you earn ranks and get promoted, you are given new gear appropriate for your new rank.

TequilaFire

I think I saw 5 players on Kyne the other day...

Bridges1120

I'm in a lot of Discords and it's getting harder and harder for people to find the numbers for groups given recent drama, then nobody wants to log in just to get farmed, then it's nothing but PvDoor or low population score abuse. I've moved to Vivec, personally.

Flame_of_Hades

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pzschrek
Not sure how I can "farm" AP in BGs when I've strictly played PvP solo unless I get Emperor then I'll hop groups to help whatever obj wanting to be pushed.

@Commancho
You're not in PvP where you're fighting a werewolf let alone two/more on a consistent basis, it seems you're trying obfuscate now and that's not going to solve anything. You talk about having to get more skill-points then this is a entirely different topic you're bringing up which I suggest you advocate for sky shards/quests/AvA ranks to carry over to new characters, which would solve your problem. I still don't get your point because again you just changed it from "I can't win" to "I can win but they have skill points and armor" like I don't get it mate.

@templesus
I'm glad to see that sarcasm because there's no #1 class to fight werewolves, that kind of talk like "DKs are top of the dueling food chain" nonsense is what got my damn class nerfed in passives and abilities. Werewolves are easily countered thanks to Fighter guild skill line as passives allow you to dole out more damage, and DBoS can wreck them if you follow up with a combo.
Any class can do a combo with a CC both small/hard as DoTs tick followed with ability or HA into DBoS, surely you haven't forgotten that.

Werewolves take 25% increased damage from poison.

Stam DK has 2 in class poison dots and a poison dot ultimate.

Stam DK is logically the best class to fight werewolves.

Do your homework next time. Clearly your knowledge on game mechanics was lacking so I’ll forgive your attempts at baiting me.

WHAT

Corrosive Armor deals ONLY 1338.75 damage (werewolf 25% damage included).

Most players will have max resists, corrosive lets you ignore those, effectively doubling your damage done.

Jierdanit

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pzschrek
Not sure how I can "farm" AP in BGs when I've strictly played PvP solo unless I get Emperor then I'll hop groups to help whatever obj wanting to be pushed.

@Commancho
You're not in PvP where you're fighting a werewolf let alone two/more on a consistent basis, it seems you're trying obfuscate now and that's not going to solve anything. You talk about having to get more skill-points then this is a entirely different topic you're bringing up which I suggest you advocate for sky shards/quests/AvA ranks to carry over to new characters, which would solve your problem. I still don't get your point because again you just changed it from "I can't win" to "I can win but they have skill points and armor" like I don't get it mate.

@templesus
I'm glad to see that sarcasm because there's no #1 class to fight werewolves, that kind of talk like "DKs are top of the dueling food chain" nonsense is what got my damn class nerfed in passives and abilities. Werewolves are easily countered thanks to Fighter guild skill line as passives allow you to dole out more damage, and DBoS can wreck them if you follow up with a combo.
Any class can do a combo with a CC both small/hard as DoTs tick followed with ability or HA into DBoS, surely you haven't forgotten that.

Werewolves take 25% increased damage from poison.

Stam DK has 2 in class poison dots and a poison dot ultimate.

Stam DK is logically the best class to fight werewolves.

Do your homework next time. Clearly your knowledge on game mechanics was lacking so I’ll forgive your attempts at baiting me.

WHAT

Corrosive Armor deals ONLY 1338.75 damage (werewolf 25% damage included).

Most players will have max resists, corrosive lets you ignore those, effectively doubling your damage done.

Most players will have max resists ??
My average resists are about 15k unbuffed xD

Imryll

I would love it if they offered fully-fed (speed and stamina) horses for rent in Kyne--or other campaigns, for that matter. These would be Cyrodiil use only, of course, but for me trying to keep up with my group is always the worst part of playing a new character in Cyrodiil. If I can buy siege and repair kits, why not rent a warhorse with some of my AP?

As for gearing, my new EU characters haven't been doing too badly relying on rewards for the worthy, but a little tweaking to make drops more build-sensitive would certainly be welcome.

One big thing is just learning that once you realize someone is unkillable by normally equipped/built lowbies, you need to change targets. If Nikel is impregnable for the moment, look for softer objectives. Don't just bang your head against the same wall over and over again.

Muzza45

I re-roll in Kyne.... Why? Simply because it's so much fun! I usually run in a 4-5 person group and contrary to a few assumptions that we trash noobs, we mostly fight well-organised and fully equipped enemy groups. Usually of a similar size or larger. It's far more appealing in this scale of combat than dashing about in a 24 person zerg...or being steamrolled by one. We often pick up new players and show them the ropes, kitting them in decent crafted sets. One of those 'noobs' we helped back in the day was recently Emp. When I first started in Kyne I died a lot. It made me want to learn - I still die but not as much.
Another reason why I love Kyne is that I get the opportunity to try so many different classes/ builds. I try and improve what I don't do so well. My new Stamden is pretty useless to be fair, but the small-group environment will improve my game far quicker than the free-for-all mess that is Vivec. I also run in Sotha, but personally find the emphasis is far more on gear than skill. I just don't enjoy it as much.
Lastly, my ping in Vivec is around 600. It's about 350 in Kyne. This allows me to survive a bit longer and enjoy the game I paid for. We usually run on the "underdog" faction, so I can safely say there's not a lot of PvDoor! They can do what they like with AP or XP or sets in Kyne, but until ZoS get an Asian server Kyne is mostly where I'll be.

Jierdanit

Muzza45 wrote: »

I re-roll in Kyne.... Why? Simply because it's so much fun! I usually run in a 4-5 person group and contrary to a few assumptions that we trash noobs, we mostly fight well-organised and fully equipped enemy groups. Usually of a similar size or larger. It's far more appealing in this scale of combat than dashing about in a 24 person zerg...or being steamrolled by one. We often pick up new players and show them the ropes, kitting them in decent crafted sets. One of those 'noobs' we helped back in the day was recently Emp. When I first started in Kyne I died a lot. It made me want to learn - I still die but not as much.
Another reason why I love Kyne is that I get the opportunity to try so many different classes/ builds. I try and improve what I don't do so well. My new Stamden is pretty useless to be fair, but the small-group environment will improve my game far quicker than the free-for-all mess that is Vivec. I also run in Sotha, but personally find the emphasis is far more on gear than skill. I just don't enjoy it as much.
Lastly, my ping in Vivec is around 600. It's about 350 in Kyne. This allows me to survive a bit longer and enjoy the game I paid for. We usually run on the "underdog" faction, so I can safely say there's not a lot of PvDoor! They can do what they like with AP or XP or sets in Kyne, but until ZoS get an Asian server Kyne is mostly where I'll be.

I have to agree. Kyne is IMO just so much more fun than any of the zergfests all the Vet campaigns are.(even tho i mostly run solo)