Veteran players farming Kyne / <50lvl BGs - please read ZOS!

Juhasow

MaxwellC wrote: »

Werewolves are easily countered thanks to Fighter guild skill line as passives allow you to dole out more damage, and DBoS can wreck them if you follow up with a combo.
Any class can do a combo with a CC both small/hard as DoTs tick followed with ability or HA into DBoS, surely you haven't forgotten that.

It's very common misconception that dawnbreaker is "werewolf killer" where in reality it's not. People forget that werewolfs have 10k more resistances (15% dmg reduction) which basically lowers dawnbreaker dmg to the point it hits werewolfs just slightly stronger then regular players and usuallyYou can see like 1k stronger hit. In CP campaigns it's even more noticable since dawnbraker is 20% additive bonus so with more percentage bonuses this 20% will go down to like 10-15%. If any skill would've to be called werewolf killer it would be lethal arrow which not only always deals 25% more dmg to werewolfs (since it's not dmg buff on enemy side but dmg debuff on werewolf side hence it's applied after all previous percentage bonus calculation on enemy side) but it also applies major defile. Huge counter to werewolfs are also controlling effects like snares and immobilizes since werewolfs are really clusmy with targeting when they're slowed down.

Kidgangster101

An_An wrote: »

@Commancho
Hello. I've been playing in Kyne for the last 6 months (when I started PvP) or so and have recently split time between it and vet (Sotha). While I do understand how frustrating it is dying in Kyne (you thought it'd be a piece of cake didn't you ), I should clarify some things.

1. Everyone dies in Kyne, just like everyone dies in vet. My kill to death ratio was 10:100, no exaggeration. Now I can atleast hold my own in 1v1 in vet. Barely.
2. There are re-rollers on all factions.
3. Re-rollers make up the dominant population of Kyne (atleast 50%). Kyne doesn't have a huge pop, so I can tell.
4. Apart from a few tryhards, most people don't have the time for grinding dawnbreaker and elite gear.
5. There are occasional new players who join, (I'd say 1 in 10 people in Kyne has not PvP'd for more than 2 weeks). They die a lot, get frustrated, join a group and play that way. Some like it and stay.
6. If you take away the rerollers, Kyne will die. On average we have 15 people live on each faction. Maybe 20 during prime time. That's it. If there are no rerollers, it will be a BIG loss to pop. And these things are like a self-fulfilling prophecy, since newer players like to see big fights.
7. People need to try different classes and playstyles. Do you honestly expect me to level my warden to 50, grinding undaunted (let's face it we need it for no-CP), skyshards and lorebooks and BiS gear before I realize that I don't like this class? (I love my warden this is just an example)
8. Many people (skilled and otherwise) are perfectly happy with the relatively low skill required to play in Kyne. Many of us are old and have full time jobs. We don't have time to compete with Fengrush. I'm improving, but slowly.
9. KYNE WORKS. I'm a product of Kyne. It made me want to improve and eventually move to vet. Three major guilds I know have moved to vet PvP (Vivec and Shor) in the last 3 months. Newer people have come in Kyne now. I recognize fewer people now.

And lastly -
I have just one toon for vet pvp as of now. I am trying to vet toons through Kyne to use. I REFUSE to lap Alik'r to level up. I have a life.

I'm not someone who has been playing since beta. I was a newbie in Kyne. I got frustrated at re-rollers. I met a guy who would duo with me and he taught me stuff like - use sets. (I didn't even know that!). I met a lot of people and made friends.

This is just my experience and observation as a newer member of the Kyne community (which if you didn't know is a delight, in a very very non-toxic way), who not until long was thinking along similar lines like you . If you want to group up just let me know in game (@An-An). I can also direct you to some good people on any faction who can group with you.

As for your suggestion for half AP - Great idea. It seems fair. I think some rewards are already halved.

So as far as leveling against dolmains in the dessert, just level through battle grounds, dungeons, grinding xp zones it's actually all really fast I think the dessert is very slow lol. That will actually let you try the class to see if you like it or not

But all this thread is showing that something does need to be done about <50 pvp. If people enjoy playing in it more power to them, but there should be limits.

1) ap gained should be half.

2) gear should only be allowed to be max blue quality to prevent gold gear using people. If you have gold gear they can just hard cap your stats from the gear to match that of blue gear. Blue gear is not overpowered at low level.

3) in <50 bg WW should be removed. Trust me I tried it on my low level toon and tore through people. 10k resistances plus impen gear plus I wore fortified brass lol I had over 22k resistances as a low level WW and could put out way to much damage/heal myself/ fear people/ plus bleed/ gain back more stamina. It is not cool in low level lol.

4) I also like the idea of giving out huge amounts of xp so it forces people out of low level pvp fast. That way they have to put in more work more often to farm low levels. Leveling up is a joke in this game anyways I can pop 3 xp scrolls and get max level if I just grind mobs with training gear. So that shouldn't be a huge problem at all.

TequilaFire

Kel wrote: »

I've been playing this game since shortly after launch.

That being said, where are all these players that teach? I learned PvP by doing PvP, mostly solo, while IN A PvP GUILD!
PvP players keep thier secrets...they don't teach hardly anything. Known PvP youtubers don't, or very rarely, put out builds that they themselves use. Simply because they don't want other players to have the success they have, or have thier build used against them. In short, PvP players are the most secretive...some may be willing to teach, but most do not.

So, I disagree with saying a guild will teach you anything useful. They'll let you tag along...they'll tell you things like "keep up your vigor", but honestly you should already know that type of thing.
But if you expect them to share builds or give anything beyond general advice, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

You were in the wrong guild then. The guilds I am go out of the way to teach builds and have dedicated crafters that will even make or help you farm the armor/weapons.

TequilaFire

Gold gear? Doesn't even add that much except for weapons.
It would not be worth it except for bragging rights in Kyne.
Seems like the so called vets are the noobs in this thread.

Tetrafy

Linaleah wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

People forget something about PvP: eventually someone HAS to lose, and it can very well be you. Too bad the forums full of people that refuse to accept otherwise. It's astounding sometimes.

I kinda missed this post for a moment.

there's losing and there's being crushed so horribly that you don't manage to fight back at all so you just wait out the battleground until its over. it can be very disheartening sometimes. that said... I honestly have no idea how to avoid that sort of experience.

It sounds like a skill problem. When you match a top 100 player I'm at the top of skill gap and you're the bottom 50. I used to spend two years with a team of 8 getting 30kpg in btb. We made teams quit and probably made new players quit.

Gaeliator

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Kyne is actually quite fun. Minimal cheese, no broken CP. Guards and siege matter. And yes, everyone else is also low on skill points.

Generally, people play pretty straight up.

There are a few mega Yolo swag try hards with gold gear and Meteor or Dawnbreaker at level 20.

My only issue with Kyne is the Vet players do very little to pick up or help new players. Often, they will openly berate new people in chat.

The biggest killer of PVP is not lag, it’s toxic/elite players.

I can see your point here.
But before someone grabs his/her pitchfork and torch, just wanna clarify this one plays pve and pvp equally and I'm not a "snowflake"(yes I know vet players don't have to help noobs, L2P ofc ).
Let's say some "elite player" in a "famous pvp guild" likes trolling other players in Cyro zone chat with racism...oh, boy that's something I will oppose firmly. But when folks are going to report that guy, all he/she told us is "I'm just RPing, and u can do nothing"...very typical.
ps. believe it or not, whatever. Can't naming or show any screenshot here because of the rule. And I'm shutting up, lmao.

FierceSam

My experience of BGs this Mayhem was pretty uniform. I’d land in a group of 2, there would be one full group which was obviously premade and a third group of rotating players, who’d take one look at the line ups, check the premade and bug out immediately. Meanwhile, no one would ever be assigned to our group and the whole thing crashed after 20 minutes - a total waste of everyone’s time. If that’s happening during double XP Mayhem events, it can’t be jolly during normal times.

BG’s issues are clear. Too little population, a stupidly painful learning curve that actively discourages new players from enjoying or learning from the experience. I would love to see guild organised BGs, where balance is more likely and a league table like ladder, where experience gained was related to the power/ranking of the teams/players you beat and simply milking randoms actually reduced your rewards and rank.

Simply adding new maps won’t rejuvenate BGs or encourage new players.

generalmyrick

last time i levelled a character i had such fun in bgs! it was easy to kill the under 50s with my build for some reason...but when i play with the over 50 bgs, i get owned! :-)

Juhasow

Commancho wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I do realise that this thread will get a lot of hate, but I would like to point out two things which have currently drawn my attention.

Recently I have created my new character and I have started to play BGs under lvl 50 and Kyne in Cyrodiil.
I have noticed that there are actually quite many well organised groups and good players which was kinda suprising so I have started to talk to them.

Here are my conslusions:
1. There are many high rank players who literally farm AP with their OP gear/years of experience/well organised groups in low levels Battlegrounds... Why would they do that? Because it's much easier to farm against new players than actually play against well organised groups in PVP above 50 lvl! It's because AP reward is EXACTLY THE SAME like in PVP above lvl 50! This leads straight to pathology, where experienced players with BiS gear simply DEMOLISH two other teams to clam their fast & easy AP, reward boxes etc! They search for the games without random BG bonus by checking all specific modes... Once they hit lvl 50 - they put the gear in the bank, delete their characters and start over again! That's BS!

2. Werewolves - they have to much power creep to be countered in PVP under lvl 50! Insane speed, resistance & damage while on the other side there is no knowledge how to counter them, there is even no gear or abilities which would allow comfortably to fight them back.... I mean, I have tried werewolf once in BG under lvl 50 and I went 33-0 in TDM without any issues... I have never done it again, it felt like cheating, this kind of scores are very rare especialy for werewolves in PVP +50lvl.

Let's go further and think - what will be the result when we will sum up points mentioned above? Let me answer you - 4 players being werewolves, with BiS gear, years of experience and voice communicator while on the other side there will be cannon fodder a.ka. new players and maybe some random person who has recently started new toon - I have seen games where such a team had 500 points while the others had ZERO!!!

This discourages new players from playing PVP or maybe even a game itself! After few battlegrounds a new player will simply leave the game or he will think that he can go back to PVP once he hits 50 lvl... Again wrong! He will miss entire chance of learning PVP on lower levels against players with similiar experience. Later on, even BiS gear and some PVE experience won't help him much so he will burn himself again and never comeback to PVP... That's just one of the reasons why PVE is way more popular than PVP, but really serious one which IMO should be adressed....

Possible solutions:
1. PVP under 50 lvl should have halved AP than PVP lvl 50+, so winning a match under 50 lvl would be equal to losing one in BGs lvl 50+ <also halved Tel-Var rate in Cyro>
2. Werewolves and vampires should be removed from PVP under lvl 50 or affected in some special way by battle spirit in PVP under lvl 50.
3. Premade groups could be disabled in BGs under lvl 50 or they could be spread to all teams randomly.

Umm this post is kinda wierd. it basically just states obvious , hides certain facts to prove some agenda and comes with wierd unreasonable "solutions"

What is the point of "farming AP in low lv battlegrounds" ? I mean to farm something there needs to be reward otherwise there is no farm but what's the reward of farming Ap on low lv BG ? You wont get high PvP ranks through that You wont earn lots of moneys also. The only thing is higher amount of rewards of the worthy chests You can get but seriously outside of PvP event I dont see the point of even doing that. You say that people with years of experience , BiS gear , voice communicator and lot of preparation are destroying everyone in low lv BGs but guess what same will happen in regular BG if there will be experienced BiS geared premade in one of the teams and pther teams will be just randoms. Low lv BG have same rules and duration as regular BGs so I wouldnt say it's faster way to get AP. Yeah ofc there are situations where players with bigger experience "demolish" other unexperienced players but calling it pathology is kinda silly.

Werewolfs yeah ? You went with fully prepared werewolf on Your 1st low lv BG and You destroyed everyone so werewolf is OP ? Let me tell You something. Any build You would prepare and gear up and then go on low lv BG 1st time would've do excatly same thing so maybe lets nerf every build ? I had opportunity to participate in low lv BG in different characters since it's easy way to get vigor for example and belive me You dont have to be werewolf to win BGs especially first match where matchmaker literally makes teams out of people that have like 0-5 matches played in total.

You said quote "let me answer you - 4 players being werewolves, with BiS gear, years of experience and voice communicator while on the other side there will be cannon fodder a.ka. new players and maybe some random person who has recently started new toon" but You do realize that if You switch word "werewolves" with any other build name it'll still work ? Premades simply wins BG You dont need werewolves for that.

So being killed when You just started playing disencourages You from participating PvP ? Well in that case PvP is not for You because this is what is happening in PvP in every game at the beggining You're getting owned by better players. People learn on mistakes and failures not on victories. I think it will be more disencouraging for new player if after doing pretty ok in low lv PvP where he was not bothered by anoyone decent he suddenly is getting thrown in real PvP and he is getting destroyed pretty hard because someone without any PvP experience that join campaigns like shor gets owned 10 times more then someone in Kyne. So actually that would disencourage me like hell if after spending dozens on hours in low lv PvP where I was doing pretty ok I would suddenly start to be destroyed left and right. Being destroyed early on simply encourages people earlier to get some knowledge about the game and belive me there is lot of things those low lv newbies need to be told that someone would consider as obvious. PvE is more popular in ESO because it have Elder Scrolls words in title plus Cyrodill is laggy unbalanced mess. It have nothing to do with newbies getting killed early on which happends in every MMO.

Your "solutions" are silly and to be fair it would disencourage new people from participating in low lv PvP. First there is already lowered amount of AP gained in low lv PvP. Just look at amount of AP You gain for kills in low lv campaign which is usually like 600-800 where in other campaigns it's 1,2-1,8k and it's much easier and better to get kills there. Cutting tel vars , AP and everything in half would just disencourage people from participating in that PvP because even new players kniwing that they'll be rewarded just partially would say "screw it I'll get max level so I'll be fully rewarded instead of wasting my time". IC in low lv campaign is already dead and You want to make it even more dead by lowering amount of tel vars ? LOL

Removing one build that is strong just brings another build on top. Simply removing certain skill lines from low lv PvP is silly and seriously we could create really long list of what can be removed but it would literally change nothing there would be still builds that would be strong. I think You have some personal agenda against werewolves in low lv PvP because You focus too much on that specific subject. Maybe You got owned by one so now You think it's OP. Removing option to group up in low lv battlegrounds would also disencourage new players from participating. What would be the point for new players to take part in PvP they cannot play with friends ? Also that solution would actually increase effectiveness of people with experience that are coming prepared because they would never face any premades against them and to be fair the only chance for randoms in low lv BGs to kill 1 experienced and geared player is to come as premade so You literally want to nerf new players even agaisnt single experienced player.

Linaleah

Tetrafy wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

People forget something about PvP: eventually someone HAS to lose, and it can very well be you. Too bad the forums full of people that refuse to accept otherwise. It's astounding sometimes.

I kinda missed this post for a moment.

there's losing and there's being crushed so horribly that you don't manage to fight back at all so you just wait out the battleground until its over. it can be very disheartening sometimes. that said... I honestly have no idea how to avoid that sort of experience.

It sounds like a skill problem. When you match a top 100 player I'm at the top of skill gap and you're the bottom 50. I used to spend two years with a team of 8 getting 30kpg in btb. We made teams quit and probably made new players quit.

it probably is, I'm not arguing that. just saying that when you are new or inexperienced, go into a BG and just get slaughtered over and over before you can do anything at all - farmed basically? its demoralizing. its actualy part of the reason I pvp very little, because dealing with that most of the time, takes more mental energy than I'm willing to invest into a video game that I'm supposed to be playing for fun and to relax. so unless i'm in a mental state that can handle it and not rage quit (usually when I want something I can only get via pvp, like decorations or pvp specific styles, or dyes), I dont subject myself to being a punching bag for some bored elite.

and honestly? its not something to be proud of, making new players quit.

i don't mind losing, I don't mind dying, I don't mind trying over and over. I mind feeling like I'm making NO progress, like nothing I do matters. I've had losses that I had as much fun with as wins... because I gave it my best. sometimes, you are not even given an opportunity to do that much.

its also why I absolutely despise the smug way certain players who sprint their way through dungeons, leaving everyone else behind struggling to catch up, missing out on boss loot etc - state: "you should be thankful that I carried you through" no. not really.

so anyways, I'm not sure what my point is at this point, other then... there is a hell of a difference in dying while fighting back and not even having opportunity to fight back before you are unceremoniously slaughtered. is it skill differential? yes most likely. but.. a good system will do its best NOT to put highly skilled players against beginners etc that do not stand a chance against them. this is NOT real life where you cannot expect a fair fight. its a video game. so we should strive to make sure that our fights ARE fair.

Commancho

Juhasow wrote: »

What is the point of "farming AP in low lv battlegrounds" ? I mean to farm something there needs to be reward otherwise there is no farm but what's the reward of farming Ap on low lv BG ? You wont get high PvP ranks through that You wont earn lots of moneys also. The only thing is higher amount of rewards of the worthy chests You can get but seriously outside of PvP event I dont see the point of even doing that.

You can buy items for AP/Tel-var and sell them in the guild stores. Also you can open rewards of the worthy on your main character so they will be always 160CP. I think it was obvious and it didnt require further explaination.

Juhasow wrote: »

Werewolfs yeah ? You went with fully prepared werewolf on Your 1st low lv BG and You destroyed everyone so werewolf is OP ? Let me tell You something. Any build You would prepare and gear up and then go on low lv BG 1st time would've do excatly same thing so maybe lets nerf every build ? I had opportunity to participate in low lv BG in different characters since it's easy way to get vigor for example and belive me You dont have to be werewolf to win BGs especially first match where matchmaker literally makes teams out of people that have like 0-5 matches played in total.

There is no such a thing like "fully prepared werewolf". You get a bite from friend, you craft <or ask someone to craft you> blue hunding rage + blue gladiator and woaaaah you are ready to go... Spam light attack, get kills on players who have not enaugh experience, skillpoints, gear and unlocked abilities to counter you. That's completly opposite to creating a build, mastering rotation, bursts and execution.

Juhasow wrote: »

So being killed when You just started playing disencourages You from participating PvP ? Well in that case PvP is not for You because this is what is happening in PvP in every game at the beggining You're getting owned by better players. People learn on mistakes and failures not on victories.

People learn when they have a chance. You will not become a great boxer if you gonna fight world champion everyday and everytime he will KO you before you even land a punch. You will not learn how to eliminate a threat if you are being elimineted. I'm not saying that every BG under 50 lvl or fight in Kyne is like this, but it's far too common.

Juhasow wrote: »

Your "solutions" are silly and to be fair it would disencourage new people from participating in low lv PvP. First there is already lowered amount of AP gained in low lv PvP. Just look at amount of AP You gain for kills in low lv campaign which is usually like 600-800 where in other campaigns it's 1,2-1,8k and it's much easier and better to get kills there. Cutting tel vars , AP and everything in half would just disencourage people from participating in that PvP because even new players kniwing that they'll be rewarded just partially would say "screw it I'll get max level so I'll be fully rewarded instead of wasting my time". IC in low lv campaign is already dead and You want to make it even more dead by lowering amount of tel vars ?

Don't you worry for Kyne and low level battlegrounds, because they will be fine. Silly is suggesting that they should be rewarded as much as veteran PVP. That's completly against sport spirit and fair play and it creates a pathology where playing in low rank PVP by organised veteran groups has became a buissness model. Overall, THERE IS A REASON why devs have created separate PVP for players under lvl 50, don't you think? I don't think they share your point of view, otherwise there we would have only one PVP campaign/BGs, so "everyone could learn by playing against the best"...

MajBludd

I believe some ppl have technical issues with playing vet. But to say the lag is the issue, or pop is too low, is just an excuse for most.
I know a few that are casual player but most are far from casual players in under 50.

Kyne pop is low. Shor and sotha have about the same pop. Sotha has no cps, so it will be similar to kyne.

Try playing in vet, if you say you don't have time to farm the necessary gear then how do you have time to reroll over and over again? That could have been time spent getting gear for vet, correct?

Fur_like_snow

Yeah I don’t buy the whole “gotta hit rank 20 in kyne before I decide if I like this class or not” excuse. It takes less than 8 hours played to hit level 50 on any class and that’s if you’re not grinding anchors and or zombies.

max_only

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

I had the hardest time pugging BG for a long time...then I found the simple solution. while waiting for the match to start, greet your group members, communicate a plan, and to stick together. Humiliating premades every day since. You don't need voice chat to work together, you just need to prepare yourselves.

The only times I’ve every received abuse in pvp is from my own teammates in BGs and in Cyro. I’ve never gotten hate whispers from the enemy, ever. First Midyear Mayhem my own faction members were hurling abuse at any new players they came across. Same for BGs.

Pvp in this game is the gutter and the only suggestion I can make is, make peace with yourself and meditate before joining. Don’t play hungry or angry. Accept disappointment and keep your expectations low before you even log in.

Get_Packed

I see vet players bragging about farming lowbies in kyne in multiple discords, its pretty sad. I remember going into kyne on a level 10 magdk and some level 28 magblade “kyne-tard” popped out of stealth and soul assaulted me!
These terrible players who have such little skill that they have to farm lowbies have methods for grinding fighters guild without gaining xp, and have gold sets. After you gain cp160 you should no longer be allowed in kyne.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe their is an active 500 man AD guild in PC NA Kyne that has been abusing a lot lowbies for years. Its a sad thing, at least those kyne-tards never really progress or learn enough to be great players in vet pvp.

Juhasow

Commancho wrote: »

You can buy items for AP/Tel-var and sell them in the guild stores. Also you can open rewards of the worthy on your main character so they will be always 160CP. I think it was obvious and it didnt require further explaination.

Important part about the farm of anything is how effective that farming can be. When it comes to farming AP in low lv campaingns with the purpose of making gold out of it it's basically the worst way of doing that plus farming AP to sell some AP items is not that profitable in the 1st place so it's more like Your conspiracy theory that people farm AP in low lv PvP to sell items that cost AP rather then something that is actually happening. Important part about farming is also how much time and resources You need to prepare for that because time is money and to be fair time and amount of resources needed to truly prepare low lv character to be "destroyer of low lv PvP" makes it not beneficial at all as gold famer. You can sometiems spend more gold then You would earn. The only thing worth farming in low lv PvP are tel vars but You know why ? Because IC in low lv campaign is dead place and nobody goes there. Even during double tel var event in weekend prime time there was no people there. So the only beneficial thing in low lv PvP have nothing to do with subject You're talking about. As for rewards of the worthy boxes and AP farm You can do it with the same level of effectiveness as You would do in low lv campaign and even more brainless.

Commancho wrote: »

There is no such a thing like "fully prepared werewolf". You get a bite from friend, you craft <or ask someone to craft you> blue hunding rage + blue gladiator and woaaaah you are ready to go... Spam light attack, get kills on players who have not enaugh experience, skillpoints, gear and unlocked abilities to counter you. That's completly opposite to creating a build, mastering rotation, bursts and execution.

You talk there is no such a think like fully prepared werewolf and then You describe procces of preparation lol. Fact it's short procces doesnt mean it's non existant. People in low lv PvP simply not prepare themselves for PvP at all most of the time. They very often dont even have food buff so even the shortest preparation is still preparation and the more time You'll invest in preparing build the more effective it'll be. Sure You can do werewolf the way You said but it's not the most effective way to make werewolfs effective in low lv PvP but still even that is still preparation and when You're going to low lv pvP with crafted gear , food buff , potions You are already fully prepared. Preparation is not skill curve because I think this is what You're talking about but it's obvious in low lv PvP skill curve is lower.

Commancho wrote: »

People learn when they have a chance. You will not become a great boxer if you gonna fight world champion everyday and everytime he will KO you before you even land a punch. You will not learn how to eliminate a threat if you are being elimineted. I'm not saying that every BG under 50 lvl or fight in Kyne is like this, but it's far too common.

You will also not become champion by fighting Your backyard friends. At certain point You'll have to face proffesional. Sooner it happen better for You. By Your logic somebody that never played low lv PvP but he entered PvP after he got lv 50 will never be able to learn how to play because everybody there is better then him at start. Low lv or not You'll always initially get owned by better player.

Commancho wrote: »

Don't you worry for Kyne and low level battlegrounds, because they will be fine. Silly is suggesting that they should be rewarded as much as veteran PVP. That's completly against sport spirit and fair play and it creates a pathology where playing in low rank PVP by organised veteran groups has became a buissness model. Overall, THERE IS A REASON why devs have created separate PVP for players under lvl 50, don't you think? I don't think they share your point of view, otherwise there we would have only one PVP campaign/BGs, so "everyone could learn by playing against the best"...

They'll be fine because changes like the ones You want will never happen. I dont think there is anything silly in rewarding both the same it's silly to think otherwise. Also like I said in kyne You already get less AP just look at kyne leaderboard and compare it to for example to Shor leaderboar which is also 7 days campaign with lower population. Yeah devs created campaign named "below lv 50" not "below lv 50 for those who dont have other characters with max lv". I think You add some additional meaning to the simpliest thing that is present in most of MMOs which is separate PvP for low lv characters which no other rules attached to it. Players that have some maxed character still deserve to be able to play in low lv enviroment when they are making new character You like it or not. You want to tell me that after You got Your 1st lv 50 You never again stepped into low lv pvp with different character ? And when You eneterd that PvP You want to tell me that You went there with random gear You've found in overland zone and without a food buff ? I think we both know the answer so I think we're done here.

Get_Packed

Wait, since you will eventually face a good pvper someday @Juhasow that its perfectly fine for kyners to sealclub legit newbies? So would it be ok if I brought a highschool baseball team to play against a t-ball team? Common man.

idk

Commancho wrote: »

I have changed the tittle of the thread to be more accurate - thread is about veteran players continuously farming rookie campaign and BGs under lvl 50. Please, don't turn this into PVE vs PVP flame war or "XYZ should /shouldn't be nerfed".

Regardless, my reply remains the same.

Zos is not going to tell veteran players they cannot play in sub 50 content. Besides reality that queues would be very slow to pop if it was limited only to very new players and the campaign would be even more empty, new players should not have their hands held and pampered only to receive a rude awakening once they hit level 50.

That would probably be worse.

Commancho

Dear @Juhasow I will answer you shortly, because I'm already tired of repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record. Since you are claiming that veteran players are playing Kyne/<lvl 50 BG not for AP/Tel-Var, then I assume, that you will have nothing against halving them, since new players don't really need them that much. Right?

Pevey

I think this thread raises a lot of good points. Anyone who has played competitive sports knows that the way to get any better is to “play up,” meaning play with people who are a little bit better than you are. But not a LOT better. You have to be able to contribute to the game in a meaningful way. I think the core issue here is that there is no laddering system of any kind in ESO. Having the under 50 Kyne campaign is not a good substitute for laddering, for the reasons already pointed out in this thread. I think it is worth ZOS’s attention.

People say that if the perpetual re-rollers were not allowed in Kyne, it would be even emptier, but that is a huge assumption. How many of the people who come in shortly after lvl 10 when they get the mail msg get instantly owned and leave, never to return? How many of them would stay if there were more of a skill-based segregation? Who knows. Maybe a system of campaigns where you start at the lowest and get funneled into the next one based on certain criteria (like maybe number of kills) could be considered.

EDIT: I do know first hand about the re-roller problem. These guilds do exist. I ran with one for a while in DC. I never joined the guild, just the discord, because I couldn’t see devoting one of five guild slots to under 50 PVP when I would level out of it soon. Then I saw the dynamics of how people stayed there forever. It baffled me why they would want to stay there where they could so easily dominate. But for some people that is the appeal, I guess. These were very nice people, generally helpful. But it was super weird to me.

D0PAMINE

We also have no idea the ratio of new vs old players in Kyne. There could be stretches where it's vet vs vet, everyone on alts.

Get_Packed

D0PAMINE wrote: »

We also have no idea the ratio of new vs old players in Kyne. There could be stretches where it's vet vs vet, everyone on alts.

I could give you at least 50 names of ad re-rollers on pc na without even trying.

JamilaRaj

Commancho wrote: »

Dear @Juhasow I will answer you shortly, because I'm already tired of repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record. Since you are claiming that veteran players are playing Kyne/<lvl 50 BG not for AP/Tel-Var, then I assume, that you will have nothing against halving them, since new players don't really need them that much. Right?

Of course not (having anything against halving them). Some pointed it out already: players who replay Kyne with new characters over and over do not give a !@#$%^ about APs.

Juhasow

Commancho wrote: »

Dear @Juhasow I will answer you shortly, because I'm already tired of repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record. Since you are claiming that veteran players are playing Kyne/<lvl 50 BG not for AP/Tel-Var, then I assume, that you will have nothing against halving them, since new players don't really need them that much. Right?

Since You repeat things that makes no sense I repeat my answers to them. Also it's rude to ask question before answering question that You've been asked @Commancho so I would like to see Your answers 1st.

[Deleted User]

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Recently we've had to remove several posts for baiting and flaming, which is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid action on one's own account.

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InvictusApollo

Linaleah wrote: »

you are a ray of sunshine, aren't you. new blood is lifeblood of the MMO longevity. veterans leave eventually. no matter how good the game is, no matter how much they are catered to - for most people playing the same game for years - tires them out sooner or later. you HAVE to have new players come in to replace the old and it does help to make that game more welcoming to them.

Or we could start subsidizing reproduction of veteran players. We could give them all wedding dress and suit costumes for a start.

russelmmendoza

Im just there to lvl up.
Xp, ap all good.
Dolmen is such a boreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeereeee!

I never expect to win my lvl 10 to 4 lvl 40.
We once had 4 lvl 20 fight 1 lvl 40 werewolf.
We got destroyed sufficed to say.

hmsdragonfly

Tetrafy wrote: »

You know how you fix the problem. Disallow those from joining under 50 if theyre on an alt.

Problem is, there are a lot players who only play pve until they are >CP160, they legitimately have no experience in PvP so they make an alt trying to learn PvP in below 50. What about them?

MajBludd

It should be on the player to realize it's time to leave under 50 because of their skill level or their adversaries lack of.

hmsdragonfly

Linaleah wrote: »

Tetrafy wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

People forget something about PvP: eventually someone HAS to lose, and it can very well be you. Too bad the forums full of people that refuse to accept otherwise. It's astounding sometimes.

I kinda missed this post for a moment.

there's losing and there's being crushed so horribly that you don't manage to fight back at all so you just wait out the battleground until its over. it can be very disheartening sometimes. that said... I honestly have no idea how to avoid that sort of experience.

It sounds like a skill problem. When you match a top 100 player I'm at the top of skill gap and you're the bottom 50. I used to spend two years with a team of 8 getting 30kpg in btb. We made teams quit and probably made new players quit.

it probably is, I'm not arguing that. just saying that when you are new or inexperienced, go into a BG and just get slaughtered over and over before you can do anything at all - farmed basically? its demoralizing. its actualy part of the reason I pvp very little, because dealing with that most of the time, takes more mental energy than I'm willing to invest into a video game that I'm supposed to be playing for fun and to relax. so unless i'm in a mental state that can handle it and not rage quit (usually when I want something I can only get via pvp, like decorations or pvp specific styles, or dyes), I dont subject myself to being a punching bag for some bored elite.

and honestly? its not something to be proud of, making new players quit.

i don't mind losing, I don't mind dying, I don't mind trying over and over. I mind feeling like I'm making NO progress, like nothing I do matters. I've had losses that I had as much fun with as wins... because I gave it my best. sometimes, you are not even given an opportunity to do that much.

its also why I absolutely despise the smug way certain players who sprint their way through dungeons, leaving everyone else behind struggling to catch up, missing out on boss loot etc - state: "you should be thankful that I carried you through" no. not really.

so anyways, I'm not sure what my point is at this point, other then... there is a hell of a difference in dying while fighting back and not even having opportunity to fight back before you are unceremoniously slaughtered. is it skill differential? yes most likely. but.. a good system will do its best NOT to put highly skilled players against beginners etc that do not stand a chance against them. this is NOT real life where you cannot expect a fair fight. its a video game. so we should strive to make sure that our fights ARE fair.

I mean, people say that in BG there's a hidden MMR system that they put you against players of equal skills level. It seems to be true, I rarely get matched with newbies when i play on my main PvP character where I have spent a decent amount of time in BG. Back when I was spamming BG a lot, i usually got matched with top PvPers and i couldn't see any newbie in my games.

If MMR system in this game works the same way as in other competitive games, there's probably a set of games where it can be unfair because the MMR system tries to judge your performance as well as others. I remember when I made a new character (trying out Stamblade), I destroyed everyone in my first 5 games or so, but after that I got matched with actual good PvPers and very soon after, I stopped being able to carry, my K/D went from 10-1, 15-2 to something like 5-4, 6-6, sometimes I even fed 2-7 or smt.
So probably after your first 10 games or so where the MMR trying to judge your performance, you will see more balanced games where you play against players of your skills level. The better you play, you get match with better players. The worse you play, you get matched with worse players. Sure, some games you will still get matched with a top PvPer on a blank new alt, but that should not be common. If you can't still perform after that, probably you have to step up your game, nothing else the game can do to help you.

You can't ask for a MMR system in Cyrodiil though.