Veteran players farming Kyne / <50lvl BGs - please read ZOS!

Yasha

Stripping aside simple gameplay experience, the main reason for the power gap between new comers and long time players in non-vet pvp is simply that new players don't have the resources to keep up.

Once you get a toon to CP160 you will have enough money/resources to deck yourself out in at least one set of very good gear. However, in non-vet you need to upgrade your gear every few levels or you become much weaker. A new player just does not have the funds to acquire proper set gear and upgrade it to at least blue with purple weapons every few levels. Meanwhile, someone who has been playing for a while can likely craft most sets and deck themselves out as they please.

Accusing vet-players of AP farming and insinuating that they are somehow ruining non-vet pvp is just nonsense imo. They are paying players as well and have every right to enjoy pvp on their low level toons. What's more, some of these players form dedicated non-vet guilds which go out of their way to help newbies get better and have a great experience.

It would be nice, even from the perspective of a long-time player, if we didn't have to constantly upgrade our gear in non-vet. That would help tremendously to flatten the power curve, and make the whole non-vet pvp experience less of a pain in the arse since we wouldn't have to constantly craft gear every few hours.

TequilaFire

Get_Packed wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

We also have no idea the ratio of new vs old players in Kyne. There could be stretches where it's vet vs vet, everyone on alts.

I could give you at least 50 names of ad re-rollers on pc na without even trying.

Good you realize there are rerollers playing on all factions so it evens out right?
When I level an alt on Kyne I run into some very good fights with half the AoE and proc BS of Vivec.
I often find it amusing that Kyne players play the map much better with less AP farming than Vivec.
Also quit selling new players short, some of them do very well in PvP.
The only abuse I have seen relates to some emperor farming by a handful of players, but that happens in most of the empty campaigns and is a problem with how the emp system is set up.
I also take my low level alts to Vivec but feel op with the low level battle boost plus CP. lol

Commancho

I didn't know that scale of this problem is so huge when I was creating this thread. It seems that there are even 500 people guilds playing Kyne exclusively and re-rolling their characters after they hit lvl 50 LOL

I don't want to force you to go out of Kyne, but I think that the most fair solution would be AP/Telvar rate scaling with our level, just like it is with gold & XP. For example low rank player doing daily writs will earn 200 gold, but 160CP gets 800 gold for the same activity. I wonder how many of you would stay there "for fun" xD

Lumsdenml

Commancho wrote: »

I didn't know that scale of this problem is so huge when I was creating this thread. It seems that there are even 500 people guilds playing Kyne exclusively and re-rolling their characters after they hit lvl 50 LOL

I don't want to force you to go out of Kyne, but I think that the most fair solution would be AP/Telvar rate scaling with our level, just like it is with gold & XP. For example low rank player doing daily writs will earn 200 gold, but 160CP gets 800 gold for the same activity. I wonder how many of you would stay there "for fun" xD

I know I would. I have rerolled characters and mained in bwb/kyne since summer of 2015. I generally play very little compared to many others who pvp and have not taken the time to farm msa and trials gear (in fact, just did my very first trial a couple of days ago) to be close to the meta that runs in vet. My best advice to you is to find a guild that can help. If you are on ep, PM me and I can talk to you about mine.

jaws343

I personally level alts in BGs. I consider myself an experienced player. But I would not want to put my level 10 alt into a BG with level 50s. Sub 50 characters lack the skill points and passives to combat level 50 characters.

Also, when I was around CP 300, I decided to start PVP. I spent around 6 months in Kyne leveling each class to 50 and then deleting them. I did this to learn the ins and outs of PVP in this game against players that weren't going to immediately steam roll me before I could learn counterplay to different classes. And those vets who reroll regularly were the ones who are actually in Kyne teaching newer pvp players what to actually do. They are the ones that prepare you for fighting fully leveled and max geared players. Without them, any new players coming from Kyne to Vivec are just going to be more cannon fodder.

Ultimately, you cannot restrict the access to this campaign because you will end up restricting players who actually need to be there. And limiting AP gains hurts the newer players more than it does the vets.

Lumsdenml

jaws343 wrote: »

I personally level alts in BGs. I consider myself an experienced player. But I would not want to put my level 10 alt into a BG with level 50s. Sub 50 characters lack the skill points and passives to combat level 50 characters.

Also, when I was around CP 300, I decided to start PVP. I spent around 6 months in Kyne leveling each class to 50 and then deleting them. I did this to learn the ins and outs of PVP in this game against players that weren't going to immediately steam roll me before I could learn counterplay to different classes. And those vets who reroll regularly were the ones who are actually in Kyne teaching newer pvp players what to actually do. They are the ones that prepare you for fighting fully leveled and max geared players. Without them, any new players coming from Kyne to Vivec are just going to be more cannon fodder.

Ultimately, you cannot restrict the access to this campaign because you will end up restricting players who actually need to be there. And limiting AP gains hurts the newer players more than it does the vets.

Good point. Our guild picks up new players all the time. I am also one of the master crafters for the guild and will make any gear for a new player (or anyone else in the guild, really) up to purple with no charge as long as I have the mats. Finding one of these guilds is the best way to learn.

Commancho

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I know I would. I have rerolled characters and mained in bwb/kyne since summer of 2015. I generally play very little compared to many others who pvp and have not taken the time to farm msa and trials gear (in fact, just did my very first trial a couple of days ago) to be close to the meta that runs in vet. My best advice to you is to find a guild that can help. If you are on ep, PM me and I can talk to you about mine.

Thanks for your kind offer, but I'm interested in staying in Kyne forever. I don't have nothing against those who do, but it's about time to adjust rewards to the difficulty level. Vet players in 50+ need to keep up with meta, they spend milions of gold and they compete against decent teams. I don't think you can say that killing new players in Kyne is equaly hard.

Lumsdenml

Commancho wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I know I would. I have rerolled characters and mained in bwb/kyne since summer of 2015. I generally play very little compared to many others who pvp and have not taken the time to farm msa and trials gear (in fact, just did my very first trial a couple of days ago) to be close to the meta that runs in vet. My best advice to you is to find a guild that can help. If you are on ep, PM me and I can talk to you about mine.

Thanks for your kind offer, but I'm interested in staying in Kyne forever. I don't have nothing against those who do, but it's about time to adjust rewards to the difficulty level. Vet players in 50+ need to keep up with meta, they spend milions of gold and they compete against decent teams. I don't think you can say that killing new players in Kyne is equaly hard.

I would not agree. Our guild was running in prime time this past Friday. 15-20 man group most of the evening, 80% made up of players who have played at least a year now. We ran into several similar groups on DC. Well seasoned, well geared, even fights. We won a few, we lost a few. Even though our group was made up of majority vet players, we did not find "easy" fights, and the less skilled players in our group gained experience and confidence.

You seem to think that we are all just steamrolling "noobs." That is simply not true.

MajBludd

I think they are just asking the older players to give the new players a chance to learn without getting steam rolled by organized guilds.

I don't think that's a bad thing to ask.

Lumsdenml

MajBludd wrote: »

I think they are just asking the older players to give the new players a chance to learn without getting steam rolled by organized guilds.

I don't think that's a bad thing to ask.

If the were no organized guilds in Kyne, how will that help them against organized guilds in Vivec when they vet?

Cyrodiil is meant to be played large scale, not solo or small groups. That is what BG are for. Solo and small groups are going to get rolled by big groups. Organized groups are going to roll unorganized groups. As far as I know, there are kyne only organized guilds on all three alliances that take on new players, help them, gear them, and help them grow in experience that will help them in the over 50 camps. I don't think that is a bad thing.

MajBludd

@Lumsdenml I'd think most new players would pick up the basics on their own in kyne without a guilds guiding hand.

There are also organized guilds in vet already that would be willing to show them.

I feel once you or your guild reaches a certain level of skill, you should leave and let the new players pick up the ball so to speak.

Lumsdenml

MajBludd wrote: »

@Lumsdenml I'd think most new players would pick up the basics on their own in kyne without a guilds guiding hand.

There are also organized guilds in vet already that would be willing to show them.

I feel once you or your guild reaches a certain level of skill, you should leave and let the new players pick up the ball so to speak.

Hmmm... I suppose... I'm just not sure why they have to wait going through a camp 10-50 to learn from an organized guild. And we are talking about just the mechanics of cyrodiil, and nothing about the social aspect of fighting with a group with voice chat. The real reason that I stay in Kyne is because my guild is there. If they made the move to one of the vet camps, I'd follow.

PhxOldGamer68

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

vamp_emily

Lumsdenml wrote: »

If they made the move to one of the vet camps, I'd follow.

lol. You will never be ready for vet.

Lumsdenml

vamp_emily wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

If they made the move to one of the vet camps, I'd follow.

lol. You will never be ready for vet.

Ha! Of course I won't... but I'd go and donate my AP!

TequilaFire

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

Kyne is already no CP.

Jierdanit

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

If you didnt allow players who have CP to go into Kyne, you could just as well delete it.....
As others already said, about 60+% of the Kyne population are vets.

PhxOldGamer68

TequilaFire wrote: »

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

Kyne is already no CP.

Ah I didn't know that...always thought CP was allowed.

TequilaFire

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

Kyne is already no CP.

Ah I didn't know that...always thought CP was allowed.

It was back when it was called Blackwater Blade.
Then they rightly removed CP to balance for new players.

PhxOldGamer68

Jierdanit wrote: »

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

If you didnt allow players who have CP to go into Kyne, you could just as well delete it.....
As others already said, about 60+% of the Kyne population are vets.

Are you saying Kyne allows CP? I always thought Kyne allowed CP passives on the low level toons. But Tequila said otherwise, so I searched and one wiki says no CP passives. Can't find official description.

Lumsdenml

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what would happen if Kyne became a true below Level 50 by not allowing CP. Hmm...

If you didnt allow players who have CP to go into Kyne, you could just as well delete it.....
As others already said, about 60+% of the Kyne population are vets.

Are you saying Kyne allows CP? I always thought Kyne allowed CP passives on the low level toons. But Tequila said otherwise, so I searched and one wiki says no CP passives. Can't find official description.

Agreed. CP used to be enabled... it is now disabled in Kyne.

kringled_1

MajBludd wrote: »

@Lumsdenml I'd think most new players would pick up the basics on their own in kyne without a guilds guiding hand.

There are also organized guilds in vet already that would be willing to show them.

I feel once you or your guild reaches a certain level of skill, you should leave and let the new players pick up the ball so to speak.

I'll agree and disagree here.
I've seen too many players in Kyne with no idea what they're doing - no siege, or siege that's useless for their situation, hitting postern doors, hitting keep corners, the list goes on and on. A lot of stuff about Cyrodiil map play isn't that intuitive and there's a lot to take in at once.
Personally I have mostly moved on from Kyne, although since I have 3 characters I'd like to level on my account, I will probably spend some time there or U50 BGs. I've run a U50 magDK a few times in Vivec, and I do ok, but for what I'm trying to do, I don't find the U50 stat boosts can entirely make up for the lacking passives, the skills not leveled or available yet, etc.
There's definitely a continuum of Kyne players; some of the Kyne lifers would be more than able to hold their own in vet, others are really not terribly good. In a way I'm glad that I have never been good enough to be one of the best in Kyne; there's not really the same temptation to stay and be a big fish in a small pond, and in the long run I would rather be running in vet PvP. Some of the posts in this thread, if I want to be less charitable, read a bit like 'I thought by going in here I would be king of the hill but since I wasn't I'll complain about those better than me.'
Finally, I think most of the suggestions for 'fixes' are probably going to be ineffective.
Reducing AP gain: I suspect the most hard-core Kyne regulars aren't that motivated by AP gain, and this will probably really hurt some of the new PvP players, who are often more reliant on siege to be effective (and need the AP to buy siege).
Keeping players with CP on their account out: as many have pointed out, this would remove a lot of the pop from an already low pop campaign, and a lot of the players who are new to PvP in Kyne have some CP on their account. I know when I started (brand new to PvP in ESO at the time) I had 300 some CP on the account. Base game accounts are cheap enough that someone who wanted to maximally use this by rerolling and never gaining CP would be straightforward.
Limiting items to blue quality: IDK if this could be done, but even if it was, it would narrow the gap a little bit between the very top of the heap and those below them, but blue quality is more than enough for an experienced player to demolish multiple players who are truly new to PvP.

For the record: I've leveled 5 DC characters in Kyne, and 2 non-DC characters in U50 BGs. None has been deleted, and I use most of my DC characters in vet campaigns. I use mostly crafted sets (usually a couple of pieces from overland sets), and I've rarely improved anything beyond blue (and I've never golded a weapon for U50 PvP). I've never farmed meteor or DB, although I have had destro ult on a couple of Kyne characters late in their leveling.

An_An

(Removed...)

MajBludd

Stay in kyne, enjoy it if it is fun to you. It lost its fun for me for several reasons.

@kringled_1, yup seen many scared to get off the porch in vet. The so called "big fish" of kyne.

Iskiab

Same as it ever was, those that can pvp do. Those that can't pvp well try and find newer players to take advantage of. It's been happening in pvp games since the dawn of MMOs. The worse the player the lower the bracket they look for.

p00tx

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

geonsocal

I've got 5 no cp level 35 toons fighting in vivec...

I can't kill anyone by myself (without siege that is - flaming oil doesn't care what level you are) - heck it takes me five minutes just to beat down some of those resource honor guards - but, I rez others as much if not more than i get rezzed myself...

the thought of working non vet toons through kyne never seemed that interesting...

better to simply jump in to the deep end and progress the old fashioned way: get your butt kicked early and in the middle, and start learning to use the environment and allies to win fights...

Lumsdenml

p00tx wrote: »

Yeah, going into a beginner PvP zone with a fully loaded alt to farm new players is pretty weak. Get back into the grown up servers and stop being a bottom feeder.

Just curious, but what is a "fully loaded alt" in your opinion? I'm usually running all purple gear and 2x5 1x2 craftable sets. Would that qualify?

vamp_emily

I never really understood this topic. I think most players reroll(ed) because kyne/backwaters was fun. For me it was never about farming anyone. Vet pvp is a little different, and kyne/blackwaters was always the go to place to have fun lag free.

I was born and raised in Blackwaters. I went from complete noob to an exceptional player, and I sure can't give that credit to Vet PvP. I used to jump in group and die over and over. The pain I went through would have made the average player quit and hate pvp. I kept on trying and everything I learned was from playing in low level PvP for years.

Most the time I play i'm not in a group. Often it is me vs X and there is a good chance I will die, but this has made me a better player. I'm far from elite but I now outperform in groups when playing BG.

I do have regrets for playing in low level pvp. I'm sure I would be at AW level 50 by now if I didn't reroll so many times, but it was worth it. Not only am I a better player in PvP, but playing in low level pvp also made me a better player in PvE groups ( dungeons / trials ). I recommend players to stay in kyne as long as it takes to get better.

It might seem like vet players are farming AP but there is so much more AP in Vet campaigns. I personally think Kyne would have been a dead campaign a long time ago if it wasn't for rerollers. Sometimes just having extra players ( vet or noob ) will help balance population.

I haven't played much in Kyne lately. My goal is to get one of my characters to AW 50.

Malibulove

The irony of this entire discussion is that in order to complain that people farm Kyne for months on end... you yourself have to be specifically trying to farm Kyne for months on end.

Notice the verbiage on a lot of early posts in this thread; very few specific complaints and more just a bunch of posts lamenting the fact that organized groups or geared players exist at all.

Because at the end of the day if you actually level through Kyne, you're not going to spend any significant time there, and the moment you hit 50 and move to Sotha/Vivec basically 100% of people min/max and organize the way only a small percentage of Kyne players do.

Although it is funny to see the mental gymnastics as people try to pretend they're new players playing through Kyne organically while simultaneously pulling from years of experience in order to call out the exact specific ways the pvp community has ruined Kyne for new players like them. Bit of a contradiction there.