Veteran players farming Kyne / <50lvl BGs - please read ZOS!

Commancho

Dear ZOS,

I do realise that this thread will get a lot of hate, but I would like to point out two things which have currently drawn my attention.

Recently I have created my new character and I have started to play BGs under lvl 50 and Kyne in Cyrodiil.
I have noticed that there are actually quite many well organised groups and good players which was kinda suprising so I have started to talk to them.

Here are my conslusions:
1. There are many high rank players who literally farm AP with their OP gear/years of experience/well organised groups in low levels Battlegrounds... Why would they do that? Because it's much easier to farm against new players than actually play against well organised groups in PVP above 50 lvl! It's because AP reward is EXACTLY THE SAME like in PVP above lvl 50! This leads straight to pathology, where experienced players with BiS gear simply DEMOLISH two other teams to clam their fast & easy AP, reward boxes etc! They search for the games without random BG bonus by checking all specific modes... Once they hit lvl 50 - they put the gear in the bank, delete their characters and start over again! That's BS!

2. Werewolves - they have to much power creep to be countered in PVP under lvl 50! Insane speed, resistance & damage while on the other side there is no knowledge how to counter them, there is even no gear or abilities which would allow comfortably to fight them back.... I mean, I have tried werewolf once in BG under lvl 50 and I went 33-0 in TDM without any issues... I have never done it again, it felt like cheating, this kind of scores are very rare especialy for werewolves in PVP +50lvl.

Let's go further and think - what will be the result when we will sum up points mentioned above? Let me answer you - 4 players being werewolves, with BiS gear, years of experience and voice communicator while on the other side there will be cannon fodder a.ka. new players and maybe some random person who has recently started new toon - I have seen games where such a team had 500 points while the others had ZERO!!!

This discourages new players from playing PVP or maybe even a game itself! After few battlegrounds a new player will simply leave the game or he will think that he can go back to PVP once he hits 50 lvl... Again wrong! He will miss entire chance of learning PVP on lower levels against players with similiar experience. Later on, even BiS gear and some PVE experience won't help him much so he will burn himself again and never comeback to PVP... That's just one of the reasons why PVE is way more popular than PVP, but really serious one which IMO should be adressed....

Possible solutions:
1. PVP under 50 lvl could have halved AP than PVP lvl 50+, so winning a match under 50 lvl would be equal to losing one in BGs lvl 50+ <also halved Tel-Var rate in Cyro>
2. AP/Telvar rate could scale with player's level <just like gold, XP>
3. Werewolves and vampires should be removed from PVP under lvl 50 or affected in some special way by battle spirit in PVP under lvl 50.
4. Premade groups could be disabled in BGs under lvl 50 or they could be spread to all teams randomly.

MaxwellC

@Commancho
Need a basis on how you came up with your "research" for #1 because that's some tinfoil hat tomfoolery if I say so myself.

You need to invest in fighter guild passives and skills + get a better build if you're struggling against an average werewolf player. I literally play a Stam DK in PvP (non meta so no masks/FoM) yet I steam roll them even though we're the weakest AvA class there is. So #2 is a clear L2P issue.

So your solutions also do not make any sense, after reading your complaint it seems more of a "I got steam-rolled in PvP, so let me complain about it" type of thread. Mate you honestly just need to work on your build, I solo queue battlegrounds and I still can wreck a team if my team-mates are competent or listen to what I say/stay tight-knit.

Edit: Seems people are not @ing me but to make it clear, OP changed his posts after a few comments against his idea so now my original comment is pretty much off-point thanks to that. We really need edit checks when things like this happen.

StarOfElyon

It can be bad. They go into BG like they're going into a dungeon. It's annoying but it feels good when and if we're able to beat them. There needs to be a system to sort the premades from the solos though.

Tetrafy

You know how you fix the problem. Disallow those from joining under 50 if theyre on an alt.

West1389

Tetrafy wrote: »

You know how you fix the problem. Disallow those from joining under 50 if theyre on an alt.

That wouldn't work I'm back and forth on a alt. Both my toons are below 50, just started in pc.

West1389

I do agree with OP, I know I'm gonna die so bad when I go into bg. I feel bad for my team, level 20 toon. I dont have good gear, and my good skills are not open yet. So its guaranteed I will die a lot. Wolves are brutal in there, so I see why some stay out. I never wanted to go into it until I hit 50 with my skills, and gear. I just want the bonus xp to level up quicker so I run it.

Raammzzaa

Regarding point #1, I know there are people that prefer to play in the under 50 campaign and delete toons and recycle gear just like op described. I’m sure some hit BGs too.

Point #2, I’ve never had an issue fighting werewolves in any campaign, or BGs.

technohic

Tetrafy wrote: »

You know how you fix the problem. Disallow those from joining under 50 if theyre on an alt.

I'm guessing youd have a pretty empty sub 50 PVP.

This happens in all games, btw. Just ESO has put a ton if power into gear. I'm not sure how they could make it better other than disabling gear and having battle spirit provide stats for everyone. But then you wouldn't really be learning anything for next level PVP.

Kadoin

People forget something about PvP: eventually someone HAS to lose, and it can very well be you. Too bad the forums full of people that refuse to accept otherwise. It's astounding sometimes.

pzschrek

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Commancho
Need a basis on how you came up with your "research" for #1 because that's some tinfoil hat tomfoolery if I say so myself.

You need to invest in fighter guild passives and skills + get a better build if you're struggling against an average werewolf player. I literally play a Stam DK in PvP (non meta so no masks/FoM) yet I steam roll them even though we're the weakest AvA class there is. So #2 is a clear L2P issue.

So your solutions also do not make any sense, after reading your complaint it seems more of a "I got steam-rolled in PvP, so let me complain about it" type of thread. Mate you honestly just need to work on your build, I solo queue battlegrounds and I still can wreck a team if my team-mates are competent or listen to what I say/stay tight-knit.

Found the farmer! 😆

You’re not wrong at all actually, it IS a L2P issue. He admits as much. I think, if you distill his entire point, what I’m hearing is “I can’t learn to pvp because I’m getting crushed by experts and don’t have space to learn.”

It’s a really valid concern and no small reason why the pvp pipeline of new players was cut long ago, but sadly one without an easy solution.

Girl_Number8

You said so yourself they have experience. So take the time to learn PvP and your classes that you play. A good guild can help with this and mostly the time you put into getting better yourself. You will feel a lot better if you do that because you will see actual progression. Good Luck

Girl_Number8

Tetrafy wrote: »

You know how you fix the problem. Disallow those from joining under 50 if theyre on an alt.

That makes no sense as no cp are in affect and they are below 50. It's not my cup of tea but someone should not be kept from areas of the game if they meet the requirements. That could be a new class for them to learn or they may have just started PvP after playing PvE since being on eso, just saying.

TequilaFire

The secret has already been stated, join a guild that plays in Kyne and things equal out and you learn the ropes.

Starlock

To add to your issues (as neither of those were concerns of mine):

1) The frame rate crashes down hard in Cyrodiil to the point I cannot tell what is going on, making surival or death sheer luck, chance, or group size.

2) PvP and PvE require entirely different setups ane therefore should not have been combined. I am not going to gut my characters just to play PvP on rare occasions, nor can I justify having a dedicated PvP character given the above.

Fix the terrible lag + separate PvP from PvE = castle sieging is super cool and I want to play it

MajBludd

#1 is true. Many guilds and players have stayed in kyne for years farming newbs with dungeon sets.

I've even been linked an asylum weapon, gold gear, gear ppl farm for every 4-6 levels, farming db, meteor, psijic skill, you name it.

They say the lag prevents them from moving to vet. For some it may be true for others it's an excuse to stay relevant, in vet they most likely won't.

How do I know this? I've been in guilds with some, and know many who main in kyne well enough for them to tell me these things directly.

Op is definitely correct as far as #1 goes. This even occurs in under 50 bg's. Most are the same people who game the system in kyne.

Commancho

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Commancho
Need a basis on how you came up with your "research" for #1 because that's some tinfoil hat tomfoolery if I say so myself.

You need to invest in fighter guild passives and skills + get a better build if you're struggling against an average werewolf player. I literally play a Stam DK in PvP (non meta so no masks/FoM) yet I steam roll them even though we're the weakest AvA class there is. So #2 is a clear L2P issue.

So your solutions also do not make any sense, after reading your complaint it seems more of a "I got steam-rolled in PvP, so let me complain about it" type of thread. Mate you honestly just need to work on your build, I solo queue battlegrounds and I still can wreck a team if my team-mates are competent or listen to what I say/stay tight-knit.

I think you have misunderstood my thread. I have no issues with fighting against werewolves with my lvl 50+ toons - CP or non CP doesn't matter. The problem starts when you are level 20 and you lack passives, skillpoints, gear or experience. Personaly I can solo average werewolf with my magDK lvl 20, but I use BiS gear, experience and LOTS of more efforts than actually spamming left mouse button. The problem starts when you fight against 2+ werewolves at the same time at lower lvl. You can't win, you just CAN'T, unless you will spend collecting skyshards for 20, craft yourself golden gear each 10 ranks and spend your time on farming dolmens, which meanwhile will get you to lvl 50 so your point is moot.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

By people that are discouraged to play pvp I assume that you mean people that mainly play pve and I dare to go one step ahead and add people that mostly play casual pve.
So, trying not to put labels on players I will say, as a player that started the game as a casual, that there is a continuous idea promoted mostly by casual players that end game content is too hard and it should be nerfed. The same people shut down any new idea that brings any form of challenge to the game by invoking the title of customer. And by that I mean that their main arguement is that an additional challenge to the game will discourage new players and casuals from buying or paying the game. And that's their arguement and they have any right to support it.
But here is the catch. Those players eventualy will want to try some pvp as well. But pvp is the real end game. You are playing against people and not toned down npcs. Those people are not thinking about balancing the odds. They are not lactose intolerant they embrace the cheese! If you reached the end game by experiencing only a low level of difficulty you are going to struggle with pvp. The pvpers will chew you up and spit you out, And that's the reality.
So here is what I am saying to every player that says that they are discouraged from playing pvp and ask for toned down solutions on the lower level content. Don't be afraid of challenge. It's a game you have nothing to lose. It's a safe environment to put yourself up against anything. So go on ahead and play pvp, die and then die again, make mistakes and learn and then you will start winning and all that talk will eventualy become something completely ridiculous to you. But if you go on and lowering the standards you will always be surprised by the reality of the end game.

Tan9oSuccka

Kyne is actually quite fun. Minimal cheese, no broken CP. Guards and siege matter. And yes, everyone else is also low on skill points.

Generally, people play pretty straight up.

There are a few mega Yolo swag try hards with gold gear and Meteor or Dawnbreaker at level 20.

My only issue with Kyne is the Vet players do very little to pick up or help new players. Often, they will openly berate new people in chat.

The biggest killer of PVP is not lag, it’s toxic/elite players.

Lord_Eomer

I agree with you for new players its a nigthmare but now who cares as,

Forum is no longer a place to discuss but lot of player only criticized negatively.

Community is bit out of hand!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Sy1ph5

You won't ever stop getting smacked by average players if you never play them. Killing bad players over and over doesn't leave you with anything but bad habits and a little bit of AP. Join a guild with someone who actually knows how to PvP, then be nice and ready to learn.

Sub 50 is a crap shoot you have players like me looking to win as fast as possible so my character has vigor when it hits 50 mixed in with completely new players. It ain't right. Most of the game happens after lvl50, so it's hard to see ZoS doing something about that.

TequilaFire

The campaign description reads for under level 50 characters only, nothing about new players only.
If you make the change in PvP then should low level dungeons not be available to alts of players that have an over level 50 character as well? How much more alt unfriendly could you get?

templesus

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Commancho
Need a basis on how you came up with your "research" for #1 because that's some tinfoil hat tomfoolery if I say so myself.

You need to invest in fighter guild passives and skills + get a better build if you're struggling against an average werewolf player. I literally play a Stam DK in PvP (non meta so no masks/FoM) yet I steam roll them even though we're the weakest AvA class there is. So #2 is a clear L2P issue.

So your solutions also do not make any sense, after reading your complaint it seems more of a "I got steam-rolled in PvP, so let me complain about it" type of thread. Mate you honestly just need to work on your build, I solo queue battlegrounds and I still can wreck a team if my team-mates are competent or listen to what I say/stay tight-knit.

You literally listed the #1 class to fight Werewolfs on lol. It needs a nerf.

dovakiin5574

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

I agree with you for new players its a nigthmare but now who cares as,

Forum is no longer a place to discuss but lot of player only criticized negatively.

Community is bit out of hand!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

It's not out of hand at all. Why change a game for the new people when they can literally just put the time and effort into actually learning how to play. It's nothing more than another "I'm lazy so let's make this all about me and make the game super easy and boring". I'm tired of these posts. Learn to play or don't bother. Nothing out of hand about that.

West1389

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

I agree with you for new players its a nigthmare but now who cares as,

Forum is no longer a place to discuss but lot of player only criticized negatively.

Community is bit out of hand!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

It's not out of hand at all. Why change a game for the new people when they can literally just put the time and effort into actually learning how to play. It's nothing more than another "I'm lazy so let's make this all about me and make the game super easy and boring". I'm tired of these posts. Learn to play or don't bother. Nothing out of hand about that.

Wow a lot of rage with you calm down a bit. I'm sure your idea is good business model. This is why pvp gets so much more stuff right. Get more attention and get fixes. No not at all, but come to think of it if more people played pvp it would get more attention. OP was just saying its not new player friendly. Also said in another post above about passives and gear maybe read a bit.

dovakiin5574

Commancho wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

That's not what he is saying @dovakiin5574. What s/he said about #1 is true for under 50 pvp. I don't think s/he is talking about vet pvp at all.

So, if you think what goes on in kyne is good for pvp you may be part of the problem.

It's part of the game, an intended part. So new players need to learn fast or give up. It isn't "new players only campaign" it's under level 50 so quit whining

First of all you have been reported for offensive behaviour. Second, I'm not talking in my name, but I just felt bad for the new players, when I saw how they are being farmed in PVP under lvl 50 by the guys WHO STAY THERE ON THE PURPOSE. Third, I haven't suggested separating experienced players from new players - I have suggested halving AP bonuses from under 50 lvl campaign, so experienced players will want to leave them instead of farming them over and over again.

Well I haven't done anything offensive, clearly stating how the game is intended. There is just no reason to change anything, new players are supposed to go up against tougher opponents because that's how they learn. You're never going to learn PvP just by going against other new players who have no idea what they're doing.

MajBludd

@dovakiin5574 do you reroll? If so how many times and is your home server kyne, if it is how long have you played there?

jediodyn_ESO

What a bunch of angry jerks so many posters have become to treat a new player like this. This is what happens when people who care about something don't feel like their voices are being heard. Hopefully the new community manager actually communicates with the community.

That being said @Commancho, the problem you faced is really a core issue with battlegrounds in this game where premade groups are frequently matched against pick up groups or individuals (or PUGs), there has been a post on the BG forum about it for almost a year and nothing but crickets from the devs.

Regarding your other post, Werewolves are broken and are getting "fixed", although actually still poorly balanced as an ultimate. Someone had the great idea of deciding that the Werewolf ultimate should be less of an ultimate and more of an additional class that you can just gear for and play as without really changing back and forth. ZoS has failed to balance the concept well and you will probably see people complaining about how Werewolf is a worthless ultimate not worth its bar space sometime in the near future.

dovakiin5574

MajBludd wrote: »

@dovakiin5574 do you reroll? If so how many times and is your home server kyne, if it is how long have you played there?

When I roll toons for PvE I usually start out in Kyne to get caltrops/warhorn/purge/etc early. I've maybe rerolled a few times due to various reasons. I've been playing since end of 2016

Linaleah

for point 1. I did a LOT of battlegrounds on lower level characters during the mayhem event. I am NOT an experienced pvper by any stretch of imagination, and I'm a mediocre player at best, in general. mostly, i just try to do MY best. for the entirety of the event - I queued up solo.

I can think of very few times where I'm pretty certain I went up against an actual premade group - and mostly cause it was 4 werewolves, and its just way too much of a coincidence that 4 werewolves would be randomly placed in a group together and that all 4 of them would use the same exact ulti morph.

other then that - this is what I have learned. it takes ONE person. just ONE. who has at least general idea of what they are supposed to do in any given battleground - to make a difference. especially if the group decides to follow their lead. you don't have to be premade. you don't have to be extra organized. the rest of your group can be complete and utter newbies. (and you can kinda tell, but the disparity of number of medals and kills/deaths within your own group) and in most cases - that person will lead you to victory, or at least second place.

and before you say: "but they are that person, I'm talking about!" remember they are ALSO queueing alone and its NEW players that they are leading to victory here, which is kinda the thing that can excite new players to KEEP playing.

just becasue the team is doing that much better - don't immediately assume that they are a premade group full of high end players.

ironicaly... there was even a battleground where I was that person. me... the person who has issues with aiming in this game, who has NO pvp gear, who on a good day averages about 4-5 kills per battleground and about 3-4 times as many deaths (as in, I'm not that person who deliberately stays behind to farm newbies, I'm not good enough of a player, not to mention I don't find it fun, I was just leveling some alts on a secondary account that doesn't even have CP on it yet). simple understanding of the objectives of the battleground, communicating those objectives to the group and then sticking together to take those objectives? was enough to turn the tide. YOU can do that too, OP.

Commancho

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You're never going to learn PvP just by going against other new players who have no idea what they're doing.

You will never going to learn PVP if your team is getting wiped shortly after leaving spawn by experienced guys in BiS gear over and over again. That's why every small scale fps, battle arena or rts run ladders dude. I haven't event suggested to go that far, but for sake staying on purpose in low level PVP zones/games is kinda lame and unfair for the others.

Look, if there will be no flow of new players to PVP like to PVE. then PVP will slowly continue to be abandoned. How much PVE content we have recieved last year and how much PVP? I haven't realised about this problem untill I have created a new toon recently. I think that L2P issue is on the otherside - guys who prefer to farm new players and refuse to play against other competive players won't earn my respect, I'm sorry.

stojekarcub18_ESO

I had the hardest time pugging BG for a long time...then I found the simple solution. while waiting for the match to start, greet your group members, communicate a plan, and to stick together. Humiliating premades every day since. You don't need voice chat to work together, you just need to prepare yourselves.