Calls for DK Wings Nerf, Why?

RebornV3x · January 2019

biggda76 wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

Because some people just wanna watch the world burn DK wings are fine where it is right now and does not need a nerf but thanks to Zenimax caving in to a vocal minority of crybabies on the forum in the past they think they own the place now its a shame really.
its the same people that will cry and moan until everything is nerfed to the point were all naked and fist fighting each other.

When you think there you won't see any more apes today

? Wings are annoying but fine now crushing shock and meteor doesn't reflect and most classes have counters to it now so its fine but I hate seeing these nerf threads 99/100 of these people that make nerf threads have absolutely no idea what there talking about and are learn to play issues the sad part is ZOS listens to these people.

NyassaV · January 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Can confirm there is absolutely no class in this game that gets tta 100% of their damage negated by wings

best self healing LMAO

1 heal debuff boi

Magblade's damage is all projectiles. If you play that style of build then you have Valkyn and Entropy but the damage from Entropy is negligible

c'mon, as a Mageblade when I see the projectile reflected back to me I *** CLOAK!!!

Do you want a counter to wings? Just cloak. 0 dmg and the option to reset the entire fight.

Yes and that will continue forever therefore it's not worth fighting them. I try not to cloak a lot when I can help it too.

thankyourat · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Can confirm there is absolutely no class in this game that gets tta 100% of their damage negated by wings

best self healing LMAO

1 heal debuff boi

Magblade's damage is all projectiles. If you play that style of build then you have Valkyn and Entropy but the damage from Entropy is negligible

c'mon, as a Mageblade when I see the projectile reflected back to me I *** CLOAK!!!

Do you want a counter to wings? Just cloak. 0 dmg and the option to reset the entire fight.

Yes and that will continue forever therefore it's not worth fighting them. I try not to cloak a lot when I can help it too.

Not necessarily continue for ever because dks have viable ways to effectively snare/root you as well as pull you from stealth. The only way this can go on forever is if you run away completely by LoSing and cloaking and then come back to just harass the dk. a simple detect pot can solve this though. If you are using cloak more like a defensive ability and not a escape tool you can still lose the fight because a DK can still kill you through cloak while you can't kill a dk through wings.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

MaximumFrittata · January 2019

Wings doesn't need to be nerfed, it has sufficient counters.

Wings wouldn't be an issue for magblades if you couldn't cast it between when an assassin's will fires and when it lands. It's a magblades bread and butter burst damage ability, and it's so slow and loud now it's guaranteed to be reflected. The balance of this matchup is awful, but the issue is that magblades (and pretty much all light armor ranged builds) have been overnerfed. Wings just feels the most bad to play against on those builds.

bardx86 · January 2019

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Maybe sorcs wouldn't be so salty about wings ( a class defining skill that needs adjustments,not nerfs, and should absolutely stay) if ZoS hadn't spent the last year and a half essentially removing everything class defining about the sorc.

Why because sorcs class defining skills where never nerfred?

Khydan · January 2019

Can confirm I hate Wings and want it to be nerfed. Can also confirm I'm a sneaky bowtard that likes to play hide n go snipe

Koensol · January 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

lmao another one who doesn't get the point. Read my first paragraph again. Read it carefully, especially the part where I say "I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking." And try to restrain the trigger in your overheating brain. Relax I'm not saying cloak is fine. Relaaaax.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

Koensol wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

lmao another one who doesn't get the point. Read my first paragraph again. Read it carefully, especially the part where I say "I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking." And try to restrain the trigger in your overheating brain. Relax I'm not saying cloak is fine. Relaaaax.

Cute. But why are you specifically arguing against one of the two? Seems like you have an agenda to play out.

Get woke while I'm triggered. That's lit, fam.

Mayrael · January 2019

Edziu wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@biggda76 @TheYKcid

oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use

I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)

As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem

And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea

so ok, here I understand you as magnb as magnb is in much worse spot than sorc against dk with wing
and so here is great option from @TheYKcid to make wings reflect work only if you are casting prjectiles from longer range tha this melee range/10m/15m as how it could looks to make work your build properly if you are in this melee range eve forced by your own build while having most skills as projectiles even in your own build so not reflect is forcing you to go in melee range but just your build and reflect is just K.O. for someone like you

sorry if I flamed you before or something..but you know...99% people complaing loudly about wings are just magsorcs

@TheYKcid @Edziu Agree with both of you, this is the most balanced thing I've ever seen when it goes to wings. We could even agree on changing wings to reflect 4 projectiles per person if wings wouldn't reflect anything casted closer than 8m.

Rake · January 2019

people dislike wings cause they make dk look like pretty butterflies. Its pure unrefined jealousy

Patro · January 2019

Wings are the only good thing left to Magicka DK.

Mayrael · January 2019

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade?

Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Sharee · January 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Trancestor · January 2019

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

I was wondering the same thing. I'm mostly playing on a stamblade and have zero issues with wings. It's a class-defining skill and it's in a totally fine place right now. Not sure why so many are struggling with it.

Maybe it's all the PvE snipe-spammers getting a rude awakening when they wander into PvP for the event 🤔 beats me!

So you're a stamblade and you don't have an issue vs wings...well no f***ng s**t all your skills are melee, really dude??? People like you shouldn't be able to comment on these topics.

Kadoin · January 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

Every skill in the game if you time cloak right. Though, invis pot does it too...Why ZOS doesn't address this is hard to explain, considering they nerfed block, speed, and roll because it was too useful. Cloak's "i-frame" should not exist IMO. And if it does, it should not be an entire second or two (in lag) and negate even AoE damage.

Mayrael · January 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

Every skill in the game if you time cloak right. Though, invis pot does it too...Why ZOS doesn't address this is hard to explain, considering they nerfed block, speed, and roll because it was too useful. Cloak's "i-frame" should not exist IMO. And if it does, it should not be an entire second or two (in lag) and negate even AoE damage.

Maybe because it's already here? You know you can completely disable someone's cloak?

Mayrael · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Any AoE?

Oh... And you're trying to tell me that magblade without cloak = mdk without wings when they are in melee range? xD Riiiight that's why melee magblades are the thing right now and own MDks... LOL!

TheYKcid · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Kadoin · January 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.

I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.

At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?

I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.

A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.

Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected

Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.

And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.

I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.

I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.

...just saying.

Every skill in the game if you time cloak right. Though, invis pot does it too...Why ZOS doesn't address this is hard to explain, considering they nerfed block, speed, and roll because it was too useful. Cloak's "i-frame" should not exist IMO. And if it does, it should not be an entire second or two (in lag) and negate even AoE damage.

Maybe because it's already here? You know you can completely disable someone's cloak?

Only with invis pot, otherwise its possible to never be uncloaked. Now you and the other NBs can keep defending that i-frame can pretend its not true, but you know that frame works too well and completely nullifies not just damage, but even effects of skills. To say otherwise or pretend its not a problem because of detect pot is a bad joke that shows the forums don't look for balance but instead on more things they can crutch on.

I honestly can't believe anyone would defend one class having an i-frame, but I forgot I was on this forum.

Sharee · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Mayrael · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

DK is a beast in melee range, has every possible tool that you could ever want to have, just use cinder storm or any ground based aoe and cloak is gone, or use any AoE less effective but works, and ofc detection pots, if NBs moves away he's skills are being reflected once again. If he pushes you just fossilize him and roll out of range and your safe again. This is how balance and competitive fight looks like, action and reaction. Cloak has its counters and good players know how and when to use them, same with roll dodge, bolt escape or templars BoL - each of this skills/mechanics can be countered without gimping your build, only wings require complete build change to counter.

Mayrael · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?

And nope it's not the ignore. Because when in melee range DK have advantage over any magblade as this class is designed for melee.

TheYKcid · January 2019

@Kadoin Cloak doesn't have an I-frame, though. That's an old myth.

Yes, it disjoints incoming projectiles, so any projectile en-route when you cloak will be nullified. It absolutely does not nullify anything AoE, though. We used to think it did because it seemed to make Dawnbreakers disappear, but this was recently revealed to be a unique client/server desync caused by the mechanics of DB, and that the NB actually takes full damage even if it isn't reflected client-side.

Don't get me wrong—I'm not defending cloak. It is absolutely OP in certain scenarios (eg. against builds with only single-target, in most 1v1s, etc.). It's also laughably worthless in other situations—try playing a medium Stamblade in high-MMR BGs where nearly every game has a Warden-based team dropping Shalks/DB/Spin/Perma every engagement.

It's not a whole lot different from wings, in the sense that it can be simultaneously OP & UP depending on the scenario.

Rather that resigning ourselves to this status quo, why not rebalance said abilities to make them more consistently balanced across the board? Wings could definitely use it, and I wouldn't be opposed to cloak getting a balance pass, either.

Sharee · January 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?

With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.

Mayrael · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?

With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.

Hahaha

Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.

Sharee · January 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?

With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.

Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.

You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha

Seriously?

Mayrael · January 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?

Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).

One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.

Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?

Even terms and all that.

Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.

You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.

A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.

No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.

Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.

Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?

With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.

Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.

You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha Seriously?

One? Nope, literally everything that works against melee attacks works vs ranged to, this is the one that completely disables it, it's not a speed bump it's a wall that stops ranged classes and forces them to use another road.

Kadoin · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Kadoin Cloak doesn't have an I-frame, though. That's an old myth.

Yes, it disjoints incoming projectiles, so any projectile en-route when you cloak will be nullified. It absolutely does not nullify anything AoE, though. We used to think it did because it seemed to make Dawnbreakers disappear, but this was recently revealed to be a unique client/server desync caused by the mechanics of DB, and that the NB actually takes full damage even if it isn't reflected client-side.

Don't get me wrong—I'm not defending cloak. It is absolutely OP in certain scenarios (eg. against builds with only single-target, in most 1v1s, etc.). It's also laughably worthless in other situations—try playing a medium Stamblade in high-MMR BGs where nearly every game has a Warden-based team dropping Shalks/DB/Spin/Perma every engagement.

It's not a whole lot different from wings, in the sense that it can be simultaneously OP & UP depending on the scenario.

Rather that resigning ourselves to this status quo, why not rebalance said abilities to make them more consistently balanced across the board? Wings could definitely use it, and I wouldn't be opposed to cloak getting a balance pass, either.

I don't know if you realize this, but I do have an NB and I do use that skill. The i-frame I mention is not an observation vs. an NB, its from playing one and actually being able to use it to tank a zerg. Only a few AoEs stop me from doing it, and I can list them: negate magic (ult), icy rage (ult, because immobilize), ice wall (since immobilize works even without you taking damage apparently, if it turns on you will take 1 tick even if you used the i-frame), sorc curse, sellistrix (set), bahraha curse (set). Aside from that, I've used that skill to cut all damage even from zerg spamming attacks and siege attack too. And yea, I cloaked and cut the damage from a steel tornado spammer and apparently got reported, so ZOS can see that too if that guy wasn't yanking my chain. Considering how butthurt he was, I have no doubt he sent it in "with vid"

Now you can say it doesn't work that way, but whatever. ZOS coders know whether that frame really exists or not, and I want them to see my post and do something about it because its a BAD "fix" to a problem (or an unintended effect), and it can be abused on live.

Mayrael · January 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Kadoin Cloak doesn't have an I-frame, though. That's an old myth.

Yes, it disjoints incoming projectiles, so any projectile en-route when you cloak will be nullified. It absolutely does not nullify anything AoE, though. We used to think it did because it seemed to make Dawnbreakers disappear, but this was recently revealed to be a unique client/server desync caused by the mechanics of DB, and that the NB actually takes full damage even if it isn't reflected client-side.

Don't get me wrong—I'm not defending cloak. It is absolutely OP in certain scenarios (eg. against builds with only single-target, in most 1v1s, etc.). It's also laughably worthless in other situations—try playing a medium Stamblade in high-MMR BGs where nearly every game has a Warden-based team dropping Shalks/DB/Spin/Perma every engagement.

It's not a whole lot different from wings, in the sense that it can be simultaneously OP & UP depending on the scenario.

Rather that resigning ourselves to this status quo, why not rebalance said abilities to make them more consistently balanced across the board? Wings could definitely use it, and I wouldn't be opposed to cloak getting a balance pass, either.

I don't know if you realize this, but I do have an NB and I do use that skill. The i-frame I mention is not an observation vs. an NB, its from playing one and actually being able to use it to tank a zerg. Only a few AoEs stop me from doing it, and I can list them: negate magic (ult), icy rage (ult, because immobilize), ice wall (since immobilize works even without you taking damage apparently, if it turns on you will take 1 tick even if you used the i-frame), sorc curse, sellistrix (set), bahraha curse (set). Aside from that, I've used that skill to cut all damage even from zerg spamming attacks and siege attack too. And yea, I cloaked and cut the damage from a steel tornado spammer and apparently got reported, so ZOS can see that too if that guy wasn't yanking my chain. Considering how butthurt he was, I have no doubt he sent it in "with vid"

Now you can say it doesn't work that way, but whatever. ZOS coders know whether that frame really exists or not, and I want them to see my post and do something about it because its a BAD "fix" to a problem (or an unintended effect), and it can be abused on live.

Then this requires fix, no doubts, would be nice to see some vid of it because TBH this never happened to me, or at least I didn't noticed it.