What changes should be made to reflective scales to make the ability balanced?

Xvorg

TheYKcid wrote: »

Matthros wrote: »

Like others have said DK wings have been nerfed many times over. When I use wings on my DK my opponents adapt by switching to non reflect skills and I do the same when facing another DK. It’s all about adapting.

Why on earth would anyone even complain about having to unslot projectile skills on your DK?

The optimal DK builds involve zero projectiles. You're not making any sacrifices. If anything, doing so actually improved your build. Boo hoo.

Try killing a DK on a Sorc without frags, nor reach, nor light attacks, then we'll talk.

Try killing a Sorc on a DK without wings, when whip and embers are useless, your gap closer doesn't work even if the sorc is 1mts above you and the only way to damage the sorc is burn the stam you need to block and break free.

Seriously, these nerf threads are a bad joke

Xvorg

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maybe one skill from magnbs should go through Wings, that'd be fair in my opinion other than that the skill is completely fine. Some people in this thread are seriously confused because Wings isn't a hardcounter to anything: A projectile build doesn't die to Wings and Wings don't prevent a projectile user from killing someone else. Just because you aren't able to kill a Dk because of Wings doesn't mean you got hardcountered.

I agree that it's oppressive to play against Dks but that's ok since it's a stand your ground class.

concealed weapon? But that implies ZoS buffing it. Currently it's dmg very underwhelming

TheYKcid

Other.

Xvorg wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Matthros wrote: »

Like others have said DK wings have been nerfed many times over. When I use wings on my DK my opponents adapt by switching to non reflect skills and I do the same when facing another DK. It’s all about adapting.

Why on earth would anyone even complain about having to unslot projectile skills on your DK?

The optimal DK builds involve zero projectiles. You're not making any sacrifices. If anything, doing so actually improved your build. Boo hoo.

Try killing a DK on a Sorc without frags, nor reach, nor light attacks, then we'll talk.

Try killing a Sorc on a DK without wings, when whip and embers are useless, your gap closer doesn't work even if the sorc is 1mts above you and the only way to damage the sorc is burn the stam you need to block and break free.

Seriously, these nerf threads are a bad joke

Who is asking for wings to be removed?

I'm certainly not. I'd invite you to read the rest of the thread and gain some context.

The entire point of the changes I'm suggesting would be to force Sorcs etc. to go into your melee range if they want to fight, in which case you wouldn't have to worry about getting kited and chasing. And if they want to stay at range and kite, then you get infinite reflects and are pretty much untouchable.

jcm2606

Other.

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maybe one skill from magnbs should go through Wings, that'd be fair in my opinion other than that the skill is completely fine. Some people in this thread are seriously confused because Wings isn't a hardcounter to anything: A projectile build doesn't die to Wings and Wings don't prevent a projectile user from killing someone else. Just because you aren't able to kill a Dk because of Wings doesn't mean you got hardcountered.

I agree that it's oppressive to play against Dks but that's ok since it's a stand your ground class.

concealed weapon? But that implies ZoS buffing it. Currently it's dmg very underwhelming

The stun from Cripple seriously needs to go through. I don't even think it actually is a projectile, I've never seen any projectile-esque effect from it.

TheYKcid

Other.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maybe one skill from magnbs should go through Wings, that'd be fair in my opinion other than that the skill is completely fine. Some people in this thread are seriously confused because Wings isn't a hardcounter to anything: A projectile build doesn't die to Wings and Wings don't prevent a projectile user from killing someone else. Just because you aren't able to kill a Dk because of Wings doesn't mean you got hardcountered.

I agree that it's oppressive to play against Dks but that's ok since it's a stand your ground class.

concealed weapon? But that implies ZoS buffing it. Currently it's dmg very underwhelming

The stun seriously needs to go through. I don't even think it actually is a projectile, I've never seen any projectile-esque effect from it.

Concealed's stun from invis not going through is an issue with Volatile. The returned damage seems to be registered before Concealed/Surprise connects, thereby breaking invis and not proccing the stun.

jcm2606

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maybe one skill from magnbs should go through Wings, that'd be fair in my opinion other than that the skill is completely fine. Some people in this thread are seriously confused because Wings isn't a hardcounter to anything: A projectile build doesn't die to Wings and Wings don't prevent a projectile user from killing someone else. Just because you aren't able to kill a Dk because of Wings doesn't mean you got hardcountered.

I agree that it's oppressive to play against Dks but that's ok since it's a stand your ground class.

concealed weapon? But that implies ZoS buffing it. Currently it's dmg very underwhelming

The stun seriously needs to go through. I don't even think it actually is a projectile, I've never seen any projectile-esque effect from it.

Concealed's stun from invis not going through is an issue with Volatile. The returned damage seems to be registered before Concealed/Surprise connects, thereby breaking invis and not proccing the stun.

More meant Cripple.

Xvorg

TheYKcid wrote: »

@John_Falstaff

Base regen of a cp160+ toon is 514 mag regen.

Constitution provides 541 every 4 seconds = 541/2 = 270.5 mag regen equivalent

Battle Roar analysis:

• Base ult gain is 3/s.
• Bloodspawn with an assumed 50% uptime (very lowball estimate, as you can easily see 70-80% during a brawl, even more with multiple players and DoTs) = 14 ult/12s = 1.167 ult/s
• Mountain's Blessing passive with 67% uptime = 3 ult/9s = 0.333 ult/s

Total ult generation = 4.5 ult/s
Time to build 110 ult for Leap = 110/4.5 = 24.4s
Mag sustain from Battle Roar = (110*46) / (24.4/2) = 414.8 mag regen equivalent

Total mag sustain = 1199 mag regen equivalent (rounded down).

You can indefinitely sustain 100% uptime on wings as a stamDK without Argo and without any sets dedicated to it. It doesn't even matter if the opponent tries to brute-force through wings with projectiles, the reflected pressure—and the defensive response it necessitates from them—means the DK still enjoys impunity for the next 6 or more seconds. 100% effective uptime is still achieved.

See my previous blow-by-blow breakdown:

TheYKcid wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The skill is fine.

it reflects....FOUR SKILLS. That's two light attack, reach combos...ANY DK. That spamma wing is going to die from lack resources. It's their protection from ranged builds. I completely disagree with the idea its unbalanced

...all 4 of the attacks towards wings are going to bounce right back at the originating Sorc/Magblade. 2 full GCDs worth of attacks. During these two seconds, deducting 1 GCD for the actual casting of wings, the DK will be able to fit-in one more weave + spammable completely unhindered since they're taking zero incoming pressure.

So you now have a DK that's taken zero damage, while the Sorc/Magblade has taken a full 3 GCDs worth of weaves + spammables.

What does a Sorc/Magblade do in such a scenario, having taken enough damage to whittle half their healthpool away? Well, spend the next 3-4 GCDs on defensive abilties—shields/cloak/heals, you name it—maybe even initially wasting a big chunk of stam on blockcasting, too, since you're well in burst range of a leap at that point. All the while receiving that sweet, sweet DK DoT pressure.

Oh, did I mention you should also expect to get fossilized (or otherwise CC'd) during the above sequence of events? Burn another GCD on breaking free.

The end result of this dynamic is that for every one cast of wings, the DK gains near-total control of the fight for the next 6 to 7 seconds. When people say DKs have 100% uptime on wings, they don't mean it in an absolute sense—that would just be mindless spamming, and is frankly an insult to both parties' intelligence. 100% effective uptime, on the other hand, means it's up whenever you need it, and you can see from the above example that this is really just once every 6-7 seconds.

Boy, please, go a make a mDK and show us how OP is the class. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Counting Battle roar as a resource recovery skill is the most stupid thing I've ever read here. Battle Roar works when you use an ultimate which in the case of a DK is when you are about to kill the guy. You don't go around cyro spamming ultis to recover resources, in fact, most of the time the recovery is useless because the amout you recover are not enough to keep on the fight, or you use it when you already have enough resources, or in the case you use the ulti as an execute, your enemy is half dead, so you recover resources when the battle has already ended. There is a tiny window where you can use a skill as a comeback, but any decent player in PvP won't allow you to have that window

So please, stop asking for nerfs. Do DKs counter your playing style? Off course, but that's not the DKs fault, it is your's because you cannot adapt to it. You already have all the tools in your sorc arsenal, but you keep on complaining because wing counter ONE skill.

Curse + fury + crushing shock. You can even use cage to force the DK dodge roll and burn his precious stam. But you lack imagination and go around spamming frags and reach like a mindless zergling.

TheYKcid

Other.

Xvorg wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@John_Falstaff

Base regen of a cp160+ toon is 514 mag regen.

Constitution provides 541 every 4 seconds = 541/2 = 270.5 mag regen equivalent

Battle Roar analysis:

• Base ult gain is 3/s.
• Bloodspawn with an assumed 50% uptime (very lowball estimate, as you can easily see 70-80% during a brawl, even more with multiple players and DoTs) = 14 ult/12s = 1.167 ult/s
• Mountain's Blessing passive with 67% uptime = 3 ult/9s = 0.333 ult/s

Total ult generation = 4.5 ult/s
Time to build 110 ult for Leap = 110/4.5 = 24.4s
Mag sustain from Battle Roar = (110*46) / (24.4/2) = 414.8 mag regen equivalent

Total mag sustain = 1199 mag regen equivalent (rounded down).

You can indefinitely sustain 100% uptime on wings as a stamDK without Argo and without any sets dedicated to it. It doesn't even matter if the opponent tries to brute-force through wings with projectiles, the reflected pressure—and the defensive response it necessitates from them—means the DK still enjoys impunity for the next 6 or more seconds. 100% effective uptime is still achieved.

See my previous blow-by-blow breakdown:

TheYKcid wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The skill is fine.

it reflects....FOUR SKILLS. That's two light attack, reach combos...ANY DK. That spamma wing is going to die from lack resources. It's their protection from ranged builds. I completely disagree with the idea its unbalanced

...all 4 of the attacks towards wings are going to bounce right back at the originating Sorc/Magblade. 2 full GCDs worth of attacks. During these two seconds, deducting 1 GCD for the actual casting of wings, the DK will be able to fit-in one more weave + spammable completely unhindered since they're taking zero incoming pressure.

So you now have a DK that's taken zero damage, while the Sorc/Magblade has taken a full 3 GCDs worth of weaves + spammables.

What does a Sorc/Magblade do in such a scenario, having taken enough damage to whittle half their healthpool away? Well, spend the next 3-4 GCDs on defensive abilties—shields/cloak/heals, you name it—maybe even initially wasting a big chunk of stam on blockcasting, too, since you're well in burst range of a leap at that point. All the while receiving that sweet, sweet DK DoT pressure.

Oh, did I mention you should also expect to get fossilized (or otherwise CC'd) during the above sequence of events? Burn another GCD on breaking free.

The end result of this dynamic is that for every one cast of wings, the DK gains near-total control of the fight for the next 6 to 7 seconds. When people say DKs have 100% uptime on wings, they don't mean it in an absolute sense—that would just be mindless spamming, and is frankly an insult to both parties' intelligence. 100% effective uptime, on the other hand, means it's up whenever you need it, and you can see from the above example that this is really just once every 6-7 seconds.

Boy, please, go a make a mDK and show us how OP is the class. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Counting Battle roar as a resource recovery skill is the most stupid thing I've ever read here. Battle Roar works when you use an ultimate which in the case of a DK is when you are about to kill the guy. You don't go around cyro spamming ultis to recover resources, in fact, most of the time the recovery is useless because the amout you recover are not enough to keep on the fight, or you use it when you already have enough resources, or in the case you use the ulti as an execute, your enemy is half dead, so you recover resources when the battle has already ended. There is a tiny window where you can use a skill as a comeback, but any decent player in PvP won't allow you to have that window

So please, stop asking for nerfs. Do DKs counter your playing style? Off course, but that's not the DKs fault, it is your's because you cannot adapt to it. You already have all the tools in your sorc arsenal, but you keep on complaining because wing counter ONE skill.

Curse + fury + crushing shock. You can even use cage to force the DK dodge roll and burn his precious stam. But you lack imagination and go around spamming frags and reach like a mindless zergling.

I do actually have a magDK; it was in fact my first toon. So why don't you make a Sorc, come have some duels with my DK, and show us how effective those highly-imaginative counters of yours are?

Sharee

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

I specifically stated Bloodspawn was given a 50% uptime in my calculations. As for it only proccing when projectiles? Cmon. DoTs, PBAoEs, poisons... tons of minor, incidental damage sources are ticking all the time and proccing it. 50% is a very conservative BS uptime.

And what is it with this persistent myth about people blowing through wings with 4 projectiles with no consequences? I covered it in great detail in previous posts, but I'll reiterate that each and every one of those projectiles is hitting the caster—in addition to whatever the DKs themself is dishing out—and the sheer amount of inbound damage + CCs guarantees they're on a defensive window for the next 4 GCDs. Wings may only have lasted 2 seconds, but it won you control of the fight for a full 6. You never have to cast it any more frequently then that, and that's what is meant by effective uptime, as opposed to literal uptime. If you're literally spamming it in a panic the instant it drops regardless of context, you deserve to go OoM.

Of course this is all within the context of a 1v1. I already stated I know wings doesn't scale the same way 1vX. But once again, what magicka-based ability aside from cloak does?

You see, the whole premise of this nerf thread is that wings need to be nerfed because they make the DK virtually immune to damage for any ranged class.

And then you make a calculation based around constant bloodspawn procs, which only triggers when the DK takes damage.

We both know the truth is that the DK can and does take lots of damage(curse, crushing shock, fury, rune cage and meteor are no "minor incidental damage" either), and this supposed virtual immunity is blown out of proportion( as is typically the case with most nerf threads).

Qbiken

NyassaV wrote: »

reflect 1-2 skills per person

Think something similar was proposed in the DK discord. I would personally make it 2-3 projectiles/ person but the idea feels like the best one to me.

Zatox

Reduce cost

TheYKcid

Other.

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I specifically stated Bloodspawn was given a 50% uptime in my calculations. As for it only proccing when projectiles? Cmon. DoTs, PBAoEs, poisons... tons of minor, incidental damage sources are ticking all the time and proccing it. 50% is a very conservative BS uptime.

And what is it with this persistent myth about people blowing through wings with 4 projectiles with no consequences? I covered it in great detail in previous posts, but I'll reiterate that each and every one of those projectiles is hitting the caster—in addition to whatever the DKs themself is dishing out—and the sheer amount of inbound damage + CCs guarantees they're on a defensive window for the next 4 GCDs. Wings may only have lasted 2 seconds, but it won you control of the fight for a full 6. You never have to cast it any more frequently then that, and that's what is meant by effective uptime, as opposed to literal uptime. If you're literally spamming it in a panic the instant it drops regardless of context, you deserve to go OoM.

Of course this is all within the context of a 1v1. I already stated I know wings doesn't scale the same way 1vX. But once again, what magicka-based ability aside from cloak does?

You see, the whole premise of this nerf thread is that wings need to be nerfed because they make the DK virtually immune to damage for any ranged class.

And then you make a calculation based around constant bloodspawn procs, which only triggers when the DK takes damage.

We both know the truth is that the DK can and does take lots of damage(curse, crushing shock, fury, rune cage and meteor are no "minor incidental damage" either), and this supposed virtual immunity is blown out of proportion( as is typically the case with most nerf threads).

You know that Rune Cage hasn't done damage since Wolfhunter, right? And that Fury doesn't do anything (nor does Implosion), unless your target falls below 20%, which doesn't happen when Frags, the core burst setup tool, doesn't land. Even with a meteor in the equation, you don't have nearly enough damage to secure the kill, and once meteor gets shrugged off, you have no pressure either, meaning it's a DK-dominated fight henceforth.

But as I mentioned to an another poster earlier in the thread, I welcome any DK main in here to make their first Sorc and test it against my mDK if you're on PCNA. It's exceedingly easy to theorise what a class can and can't do when you've never played one.

Sharee

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

I specifically stated Bloodspawn was given a 50% uptime in my calculations. As for it only proccing when projectiles? Cmon. DoTs, PBAoEs, poisons... tons of minor, incidental damage sources are ticking all the time and proccing it. 50% is a very conservative BS uptime.

And what is it with this persistent myth about people blowing through wings with 4 projectiles with no consequences? I covered it in great detail in previous posts, but I'll reiterate that each and every one of those projectiles is hitting the caster—in addition to whatever the DKs themself is dishing out—and the sheer amount of inbound damage + CCs guarantees they're on a defensive window for the next 4 GCDs. Wings may only have lasted 2 seconds, but it won you control of the fight for a full 6. You never have to cast it any more frequently then that, and that's what is meant by effective uptime, as opposed to literal uptime. If you're literally spamming it in a panic the instant it drops regardless of context, you deserve to go OoM.

Of course this is all within the context of a 1v1. I already stated I know wings doesn't scale the same way 1vX. But once again, what magicka-based ability aside from cloak does?

You see, the whole premise of this nerf thread is that wings need to be nerfed because they make the DK virtually immune to damage for any ranged class.

And then you make a calculation based around constant bloodspawn procs, which only triggers when the DK takes damage.

We both know the truth is that the DK can and does take lots of damage(curse, crushing shock, fury, rune cage and meteor are no "minor incidental damage" either), and this supposed virtual immunity is blown out of proportion( as is typically the case with most nerf threads).

You know that Rune Cage hasn't done damage since Wolfhunter, right? And that Fury doesn't do anything (nor does Implosion), unless your target falls below 20%, which doesn't happen when Frags, the core burst setup tool, doesn't land. Even with a meteor in the equation, you don't have nearly enough damage to secure the kill, and once meteor gets shrugged off, you have no pressure either, meaning it's a DK-dominated fight henceforth.

Rune cage isnt in the burst to do damage, its there to ensure meteor wont get blocked, as im sure you know. And the sorc can exercise plenty of pressure on the DK with 5-6K curse explosions every 3 seconds interweaved with crushing shocks/bolts while forcing the DK to maintain wings or get hit by donut/frag combo as soon as he stops. And as soon as his health drops, it's meteor->cage time. Please do not try and pretend sorcerers are helpless in a fight against a mDK.

TheYKcid wrote: »

But as I mentioned to an another poster earlier in the thread, I welcome any DK main in here to make their first Sorc and test it against my mDK if you're on PCNA. It's exceedingly easy to theorise what a class can and can't do when you've never played one.

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

TheYKcid

Other.

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

There's no disingenuity involved whatsoever. You've made it more than clear that you know precisely what options are available to a Sorc vs. a DK, to the point of talking-down to people who have actually mained Sorc for years. So clearly you know better, and there's no reason why you can't put that knowledge into practice.

The invitation stands.

Sharee

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

You do not need to be an expert sorcerer player to know what he is capable of. You only need to face one.

TheYKcid

Other.

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

You do not need to be an expert sorcerer player to know what he is capable of. You only need to face one.

Oh I'm glad you've volunteered that information. So at this point we've established that:

a) you have zero playtime on Sorc.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good Sorc once killed you using X, Y, and Z. But that's not because they were better than you—nah, that'l isn't possible—it's because Sorc vs. DK is a balanced matchup. Only possible explanation.

Sharee

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

You do not need to be an expert sorcerer player to know what he is capable of. You only need to face one.

Oh I'm glad you've volunteered that information. So at this point we've established that:

a) you have zero playtime on Sorc.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good Sorc once killed you using X, Y, and Z. But that's not because they were better than you—nah, that'l isn't possible—it's because Sorc vs. DK is a balanced matchup. Only possible explanation.

So we are in the ad hominem phase now. "You this, You that". So be it.

a) "We" established nothing. "You" made some (wrong) guesses.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good DK once killed you using wings. But that's not because he was better than you, no - it must be because wing are overpowered, despite the fact they work against a grand total of one regular sorcerer skill. Only possible explanation.

See, thats a game two can play.

TheYKcid

Other.

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

You do not need to be an expert sorcerer player to know what he is capable of. You only need to face one.

Oh I'm glad you've volunteered that information. So at this point we've established that:

a) you have zero playtime on Sorc.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good Sorc once killed you using X, Y, and Z. But that's not because they were better than you—nah, that'l isn't possible—it's because Sorc vs. DK is a balanced matchup. Only possible explanation.

a) "We" established nothing. "You" made some (wrong) guesses.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good DK once killed you using wings. But that's not because he was better than you, no - it must be because wing are overpowered, despite the fact they work against a grand total of one regular sorcerer skill. Only possible explanation.

See, thats a game two can play.

Reflecting Frags is equivalent to negating the entire Sorc combo. You'd grasp these things if you had a modicum of experience with the class you're trying to critique.

And no, I can objectively say that plenty of DKs are simply bad and crutching on the skill (which, I will once again restate, I do NOT think is OP on the whole, just very much so in specific scenarios). When a DK that facetanks me for 2 minutes proceeds to die to my melee-built teammate in under 3 seconds during a subsequent fight, it's a strong indication that they don't actually understand the mechanics of dealing with pressure and how to reciprocate, and require hardcounters to carry them against players who do.

Play it properly if you want to play.

Sharee

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Disingenuous suggestion at best. One can not just make their first sorc with no experience playing the class whatsoever and hope to to as well against a mDK as a sorc who has been playing the toon since release.

Yet the person with no experience on said class seems to be the expert of what it's capable of. The irony.

You do not need to be an expert sorcerer player to know what he is capable of. You only need to face one.

Oh I'm glad you've volunteered that information. So at this point we've established that:

a) you have zero playtime on Sorc.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good Sorc once killed you using X, Y, and Z. But that's not because they were better than you—nah, that'l isn't possible—it's because Sorc vs. DK is a balanced matchup. Only possible explanation.

a) "We" established nothing. "You" made some (wrong) guesses.
b) the entire basis of your argument is that a good DK once killed you using wings. But that's not because he was better than you, no - it must be because wing are overpowered, despite the fact they work against a grand total of one regular sorcerer skill. Only possible explanation.

See, thats a game two can play.

Reflecting Frags is equivalent to negating the entire Sorc combo.

No. Its the equivalent of negating frags.

TheYKcid wrote: »

And no, I can objectively say that plenty of DKs are simply bad and crutching on the skill (which, I will once again restate, I do NOT think is OP on the whole, just very much so in specific scenarios). When a DK that facetanks me for 2 minutes proceeds to die to my melee-built teammate in under 3 seconds during a subsequent fight, it's a strong indication that they don't actually understand the mechanics of dealing with pressure and how to reciprocate, and require hardcounters to carry them against players who do.

Play it properly if you want to play.

So some DKs are bad.

And that means wings need to be nerfed.

'kay.

ZarkingFrued

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

Well you lost. Close it up. It's not unbalanced, go back to making "nerf sorc" threads.

ZarkingFrued

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

leeux wrote: »

Is not unbalanced... it doesn't need changing.

I'm not a DK main and I often had to fight against DKs that use this against me, and it's totally fine... I stop attacking them, and switch to other targets, or back off... so it goes against me in that case, but I'm not gonna say it's unbalanced.

It's just a hard counter for range abilities, within the limit of 4 projectiles per cast, and the DK has to spend a GCD casting this ability instead of doing damage.

And it's a signature ability of DKs... I wouldn't want them to get nerfed of their signature abilities, the same I don't want my class to get nerfed of its signature abilities.

Please, stop asking for the developers to make the game simpler, and boring, where everything is an homogeneous and boring.

EDIT: missing word

This player knows

ZarkingFrued

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As it stands, dragon knights hard counter any projectile builds limiting options for ranged casters and archers. Not only can they negate a large number of combat abilities, they're free to engage, spamming talons and lava whip you to death (which also heals them significantly). This single ability limits build diversity as everyone is forced to drop projectile abilities in favor of DoTs and AoEs. For abilities like destructive reach, not only do they have to replace it with another damaging ability, they also have to add a hard CC ability to their bar. This breaks many builds as there are many important skills, and only a few available slots. Additionally, those with a bow or staff are unable to light attack weave, which further reduces damage and ultimate regeneration.

To summarize:
It's a spammable self buff that nullifies builds using projectiles, light attack weaving on staffs and bows, and allows the caster to fight while being, in some cases, invincible. All of this makes it a broken mechanic.

To summarize:
LEARN HOW TO PLAY SCRUB

Weps

Other.

Biased poll.

The only interesting change suggested with a balancing logic I've seen, is from another post in this section suggesting to make projectiles reflected infinite but with a minimum range of 8mt ( I'd say 5 because that's the real melee range ).
Everything else is not even worthy to be heard imho.

CaliMade

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

*** NEW POLL***

Every time i get close to a sorc he streaks away So i cant keep melee pressure on him.

Streak Negates 100% of melee damage AOE CC’s and does decent chip damage
THIS IS A BROKEN MECHANIC


1- Make Streak Cost 100% more each cast

2- Remove CC from streak as most sorcs are are too non resourceful to make use of such a broken tool

3-decrease streak range to only 5 meters

4- Leave as is. Im fine with it being broken.

/s

Joy_Division

I do not find it coincidental a lot of DW Wing nerf threads have popped up during the event.

Azurya

Other.

was never ever killed by it, so I have no probs with it

TheYKcid

Other.

@Weps I made that suggestion in my very first post on page 1 of this thread lol.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5720750/#Comment_5720750

Despite repeatedly stating that I do not think wings overperform on the whole, and that they could even use some buffs, it's amazing how many will jump to a knee-jerk defense.

Weps

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Weps I made that suggestion in my very first post on page 1 of this thread lol.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5720750/#Comment_5720750

Despite repeatedly stating that I do not think wings overperform on the whole, and that they could even use some buffs, it's amazing how many will jump to a knee-jerk defense.

I can argue with you but I respect logic and interest into balancing the game compared to QQing and nerf cries

Defilted

Wings does not need to be changed.

NBrookus

Y'all know that if a DK (or spell wall) reflects your attack, you can dodge or block or cloak or shield it, right? The notion that the ranged caster is sitting their eating all their own damage only applies if the ranged caster isn't paying attention.