What changes should be made to reflective scales to make the ability balanced?

Zodiac_

Other.

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

To summarize:
It's a spammable self buff that nullifies builds using projectiles, light attack weaving on staffs and bows, and allows the caster to fight while being, in some cases, invincible. All of this makes it a broken mechanic.

Where is the "I dont think this ability needs any change" as an option?

What the hell is wrong with some people in this forum asking to change / nerph unique abilities of classes they have issues facing?

Learn to play the game and adapt in its vast variety of skills which is what makes it what it is or go play something else

If YOU cant face a DK its YOUR lack of skill. Try to get better instead of asking for every game mechanic to be changed

Matthros

Other.

Like others have said DK wings have been nerfed many times over. When I use wings on my DK my opponents adapt by switching to non reflect skills and I do the same when facing another DK. It’s all about adapting.

Solariken

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

DK requires nerf . Give class change token. Its shameless OP class. If you cannot play without cheese class dont bark. DK is super cheese class. Everyone knows it. Atleast NB needs some skill and killabe. DK needs nothing except spamming skills. All will die by itself.
Easiest class to clear VMA and flawless conqueror with little or no skill go no further its DK. Just spam wings everything ranged kill by itself. One guy even soloed fang lair in hard mode veteran lol with DK lol. Its such shameless OP class.

Shall we, maybe, learn to elucidate whether we're speaking about stamDK or magDK? Since when stamDK had enough magicka to spam wings? Even magDK can't sustain spamming them all the time (and if you can't just make four light attacks to make wings continuously drop and force DK to recast them again, draining own resources - then sorry, but you shouldn't play ESO at all).

@John_Falstaff I feel like I should say that on my stamdk I have nothing invested in magicka besides full triglyphs and I can keep Wings up 100% (unless outnumbered). He's also Argonian which means I can keep Wings up 100% in addition to normal use of Hardened Armor and Frag Shield.

John_Falstaff

Solariken wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I feel like I should say that on my stamdk I have nothing invested in magicka besides full triglyphs and I can keep Wings up 100% (unless outnumbered). He's also Argonian which means I can keep Wings up 100% in addition to normal use of Hardened Armor and Frag Shield.

I wouldn't know - to keep 100% uptime on wings, you need 1170 effective magicka regen (that's if opponent just waits, if he makes the wings drop with light attacks, it'll be ~2.5k magicka regen - sic!), not every stam build has as much stamina regen in first place. Argonian passive adds something like ~350 effective regen with three infused potion cooldown reduction glyphs - by far not enough. I don't know how you're managing that. ^^

TheYKcid

Other.

Matthros wrote: »

Like others have said DK wings have been nerfed many times over. When I use wings on my DK my opponents adapt by switching to non reflect skills and I do the same when facing another DK. It’s all about adapting.

Why on earth would anyone even complain about having to unslot projectile skills on your DK?

The optimal DK builds involve zero projectiles. You're not making any sacrifices. If anything, doing so actually improved your build. Boo hoo.

Try killing a DK on a Sorc without frags, nor reach, nor light attacks, then we'll talk.

TheYKcid

Other.

@John_Falstaff

Base regen of a cp160+ toon is 514 mag regen.

Constitution provides 541 every 4 seconds = 541/2 = 270.5 mag regen equivalent

Battle Roar analysis:

• Base ult gain is 3/s.
• Bloodspawn with an assumed 50% uptime (very lowball estimate, as you can easily see 70-80% during a brawl, even more with multiple players and DoTs) = 14 ult/12s = 1.167 ult/s
• Mountain's Blessing passive with 67% uptime = 3 ult/9s = 0.333 ult/s

Total ult generation = 4.5 ult/s
Time to build 110 ult for Leap = 110/4.5 = 24.4s
Mag sustain from Battle Roar = (110*46) / (24.4/2) = 414.8 mag regen equivalent

Total mag sustain = 1199 mag regen equivalent (rounded down).

You can indefinitely sustain 100% uptime on wings as a stamDK without Argo and without any sets dedicated to it. It doesn't even matter if the opponent tries to brute-force through wings with projectiles, the reflected pressure—and the defensive response it necessitates from them—means the DK still enjoys impunity for the next 6 or more seconds. 100% effective uptime is still achieved.

See my previous blow-by-blow breakdown:

TheYKcid wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The skill is fine.

it reflects....FOUR SKILLS. That's two light attack, reach combos...ANY DK. That spamma wing is going to die from lack resources. It's their protection from ranged builds. I completely disagree with the idea its unbalanced

...all 4 of the attacks towards wings are going to bounce right back at the originating Sorc/Magblade. 2 full GCDs worth of attacks. During these two seconds, deducting 1 GCD for the actual casting of wings, the DK will be able to fit-in one more weave + spammable completely unhindered since they're taking zero incoming pressure.

So you now have a DK that's taken zero damage, while the Sorc/Magblade has taken a full 3 GCDs worth of weaves + spammables.

What does a Sorc/Magblade do in such a scenario, having taken enough damage to whittle half their healthpool away? Well, spend the next 3-4 GCDs on defensive abilties—shields/cloak/heals, you name it—maybe even initially wasting a big chunk of stam on blockcasting, too, since you're well in burst range of a leap at that point. All the while receiving that sweet, sweet DK DoT pressure.

Oh, did I mention you should also expect to get fossilized (or otherwise CC'd) during the above sequence of events? Burn another GCD on breaking free.

The end result of this dynamic is that for every one cast of wings, the DK gains near-total control of the fight for the next 6 to 7 seconds. When people say DKs have 100% uptime on wings, they don't mean it in an absolute sense—that would just be mindless spamming, and is frankly an insult to both parties' intelligence. 100% effective uptime, on the other hand, means it's up whenever you need it, and you can see from the above example that this is really just once every 6-7 seconds.

NyassaV

Other.

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

l2fp

lol k cuz negating 100% of someone's damage is balanced

NyassaV

Other.

ccmedaddy wrote: »

"Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced."

lol biased poll is biased.

With that said, I'd be ok with options #1 and #3. They sound like they could be buffs for my playstyle.

It's not biased sadly it's very true. The ability does to much as it currently is. It often can negate 100% of people damage rather than just a decent amount of it or only hard hitting actions.

Matthros

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Matthros wrote: »

Like others have said DK wings have been nerfed many times over. When I use wings on my DK my opponents adapt by switching to non reflect skills and I do the same when facing another DK. It’s all about adapting.

Why on earth would anyone even complain about having to unslot projectile skills on your DK?

The optimal DK builds involve zero projectiles. You're not making any sacrifices. If anything, doing so actually improved your build. Boo hoo.

Try killing a DK on a Sorc without frags, nor reach, nor light attacks, then we'll talk.

On a Sorc you can use lighting heavy attacks, curse, or crushing shock and none of these can be reflected. Bonus with crushing shock interrupting when wings are flapped so there is a window of time for you to use frags or reach. You can also use rune cage to pin down an opponent from range and throw combos at them.

On my DK I switch to a channel attack such as a heavy resto or lightning attack which can’t be reflected or I get into melee range and fossilize them and whip and use embers.

I find wings annoying when I play against them but at least you have an active and passive execute and can bolt away when under pressure. All I can do is run away or just kiss my butt goodbye.

Rake

Other.

delete wings and give dks leap as skill

TheYKcid

Other.

Wings is not interruptable; it is an instant ability.

Rune Cage doesn't set up burst because:
1) it deals no damage
2) It doesn't help to bring wings down. Sorc burst requires Frags to land, and it won't

Executes do nothing when your target is incapable of falling into execute range as all your burst mechanics are negated.

Your usage of Lightning/Resto heavies is completely irrelevant in this context. You get maybe 2 ticks of 500 damage in before you close the gap. You're able to fight DKs regardless of Wings because all your mechanics for dealing pressure (breath, claw, fossilize) and burst (leap, FoO, power lash) completely ignore wings.

Wings have no bearing on the fights you describe. Stop trying to falsely equivalate you spending 2 seconds channeling an irrelevant heavy attack with 2 entire classes being completely invalidated the instant a guy presses one button.

Murador178

Make the ability reflect only while blocking, then buff the duration and number of reflected projectiles. This way you have to use it defensively.

I think every stam dk player that knows how to animation cancel should vote for this option . And its not like a good sorc would die in a 1v1, the game isnt balanced around 1v1. Certain classes will always be better at different things. (except we remove the unigue things about classes)

@Priyasekarssk which of ur chars has 150k hp - didnt even know u can have over 110k. And which nb did oneshot ur 150k char in 3 sec?

p00tx

Other.

It's not unbalanced for me, because I've learned not to fire projectiles at wing users. I use a channeled ability like resto/lightning heavy attack or use a stun/CC to get them down so they can't reapply wings before I can fire off a combo. This is 100% a l2p issue. I get that it's a frustrating ability, but personally, I'd take 100 DKs with flappy wings over 5 spin-tards with Netches any day of the week.

Nord_Raseri

Other.

p00tx wrote: »

It's not unbalanced for me, because I've learned not to fire projectiles at wing users. I use a channeled ability like resto/lightning heavy attack or use a stun/CC to get them down so they can't reapply wings before I can fire off a combo. This is 100% a l2p issue. I get that it's a frustrating ability, but personally, I'd take 100 DKs with flappy wings over 5 spin-tards with Netches any day of the week.

^why I run a 2hander on my stamden. I refuse to 'spin-to-win'. I don't even slot it on duel wield pve builds. it just feels too cheesy.

John_Falstaff

TheYKcid wrote: »

@John_Falstaff

Base regen of a cp160+ toon is 514 mag regen.

Constitution provides 541 every 4 seconds = 541/2 = 270.5 mag regen equivalent

Battle Roar analysis:

• Base ult gain is 3/s.
• Bloodspawn with an assumed 50% uptime (very lowball estimate, as you can easily see 70-80% during a brawl, even more with multiple players and DoTs) = 14 ult/12s = 1.167 ult/s
• Mountain's Blessing passive with 67% uptime = 3 ult/9s = 0.333 ult/s

Total ult generation = 4.5 ult/s
Time to build 110 ult for Leap = 110/4.5 = 24.4s
Mag sustain from Battle Roar = (110*46) / (24.4/2) = 414.8 mag regen equivalent

Total mag sustain = 1199 mag regen equivalent (rounded down).

You can indefinitely sustain 100% uptime on wings as a stamDK without Argo and without any sets dedicated to it. It doesn't even matter if the opponent tries to brute-force through wings with projectiles, the reflected pressure—and the defensive response it necessitates from them—means the DK still enjoys impunity for the next 6 or more seconds. 100% effective uptime is still achieved.

So Bloodspawn isn't a set dedicated to it? Also, that implies dropping ult on cooldown (and not saving it for when it actually matters), and even so it gives just enough to support wings, without Hardened and Fragmented Shield (which are a must). And that also implies that opponent is just standing there, letting wings run out full six seconds of duration (then why do we have Bloodspawn procs, again?). So there goes the analysis.

Dojohoda

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

As a magblade I ask, is the skill actually unbalanced or have you not added a skill to your bar which is unreflectable.

I have to slot one of the channel staves, resto or lightening, and use either force pulse or crushing. I prefer crushing for the interrupt.

I also have to pay attention and not use a heavy attack with my inferno staff.. because it can reflect back at me.

Sure it's annoying, but so is my magblade.

I have more trouble with being permanently rooted.

TheYKcid

Other.

p00tx wrote: »

It's not unbalanced for me, because I've learned not to fire projectiles at wing users. I use a channeled ability like resto/lightning heavy attack or use a stun/CC to get them down so they can't reapply wings before I can fire off a combo. This is 100% a l2p issue. I get that it's a frustrating ability, but personally, I'd take 100 DKs with flappy wings over 5 spin-tards with Netches any day of the week.

Please don't conflate correlation and causation. You channeled a resto heavy. Their wings dropped. That doesn't mean the former caused the latter.

Channelling a heavy at a DK is objectively incapable of bringing wings down. It's not a projectile (obviously), thus doesn't lower the wing counter. Wings last 6 seconds, and after deducting the GCD requried to cast it, the DK still has a luxurious 5 seconds to outheal the laughable amount of incoming damage from channeled heavy attacks. Assuming you even get the opportunity to channel those heavies uninterrupted—which would be a serious case on inaction on the DK's part.

They dropped wings because they were sloppy, plain and simple. They let themselves get pressured into burst range by nothing but heavy attacks because they were sloppy. They didn't counterpressure you, despite having all the time in the world, because they were bad.

Bad players failing to properly utilise their tools is not evidence that said tools are inadequate. No marginally competent player is going to die to the combo you described.

Ragnaroek93

Do not change the ability, even if it is an unbalanced.

Maybe one skill from magnbs should go through Wings, that'd be fair in my opinion other than that the skill is completely fine. Some people in this thread are seriously confused because Wings isn't a hardcounter to anything: A projectile build doesn't die to Wings and Wings don't prevent a projectile user from killing someone else. Just because you aren't able to kill a Dk because of Wings doesn't mean you got hardcountered.

I agree that it's oppressive to play against Dks but that's ok since it's a stand your ground class.

TheYKcid

Other.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@John_Falstaff

Base regen of a cp160+ toon is 514 mag regen.

Constitution provides 541 every 4 seconds = 541/2 = 270.5 mag regen equivalent

Battle Roar analysis:

• Base ult gain is 3/s.
• Bloodspawn with an assumed 50% uptime (very lowball estimate, as you can easily see 70-80% during a brawl, even more with multiple players and DoTs) = 14 ult/12s = 1.167 ult/s
• Mountain's Blessing passive with 67% uptime = 3 ult/9s = 0.333 ult/s

Total ult generation = 4.5 ult/s
Time to build 110 ult for Leap = 110/4.5 = 24.4s
Mag sustain from Battle Roar = (110*46) / (24.4/2) = 414.8 mag regen equivalent

Total mag sustain = 1199 mag regen equivalent (rounded down).

You can indefinitely sustain 100% uptime on wings as a stamDK without Argo and without any sets dedicated to it. It doesn't even matter if the opponent tries to brute-force through wings with projectiles, the reflected pressure—and the defensive response it necessitates from them—means the DK still enjoys impunity for the next 6 or more seconds. 100% effective uptime is still achieved.

So Bloodspawn isn't a set dedicated to it? Also, that implies dropping ult on cooldown (and not saving it for when it actually matters), and even so it gives just enough to support wings, without Hardened and Fragmented Shield (which are a must). And that also implies that opponent is just standing there, letting wings run out full six seconds of duration (then why do we have Bloodspawn procs, again?). So there goes the analysis.

1) No, Bloodspawn is most definitely not a dedicated mag sustain set. All 4 other classes—who derive no mag sustain from it—continue to use it extensively, because the mitigation and ultgen on their own are already good enough to justify it in a vacuum. DKs are actually getting even more mileage out of an already-stellar set.

2) You won't need to recast Obsidian if you aren't being attacked.

3)The other consequence of the "you won't cast ults on cooldown" line of reasoning is that you're just as likely to enter a fresh fight with a full ulti bar, meaning you have a on-demand 5k burst of mag restore at your fingertips.

Look, if you want to get into the minutiae of things, there's going to be a frivolous counterpoint to every frivolous point. The fact of the matter is that stamDKs can sustain wings indefinitely in a practical combat scenario with proper resource management and understanding of how offensive/defensive windows work.

All the post-hoc justification in the world doesn't change that.

p00tx

Other.

TheYKcid wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

It's not unbalanced for me, because I've learned not to fire projectiles at wing users. I use a channeled ability like resto/lightning heavy attack or use a stun/CC to get them down so they can't reapply wings before I can fire off a combo. This is 100% a l2p issue. I get that it's a frustrating ability, but personally, I'd take 100 DKs with flappy wings over 5 spin-tards with Netches any day of the week.

Please don't conflate correlation and causation. You channeled a resto heavy. Their wings dropped. That doesn't mean the former caused the latter.

Channelling a heavy at a DK is objectively incapable of bringing wings down. It's not a projectile (obviously), thus doesn't lower the wing counter. Wings last 6 seconds, and after deducting the GCD requried to cast it, the DK still has a luxurious 5 seconds to outheal the laughable amount of incoming damage from channeled heavy attacks. Assuming you even get the opportunity to channel those heavies uninterrupted—which would be a serious case on inaction on the DK's part.

They dropped wings because they were sloppy, plain and simple. They let themselves get pressured into burst range by nothing but heavy attacks because they were sloppy. They didn't counterpressure you, despite having all the time in the world, because they were bad.

Bad players failing to properly utilise their tools is not evidence that said tools are inadequate. No marginally competent player is going to die to the combo you described.

I never said the channeled ability caused them to drop wings...

" I use a channeled ability like resto/lightning heavy attack or use a stun/CC to get them down so they can't reapply wings before I can fire off a combo".

If you disable them a few seconds after they apply wings, they are incapable of moving, therefore incapable of applying wings before you can hit them again. It requires careful timing, but it's doable. This is separate from the channel, not a result of it. I suppose I should have been more clear. The Channeled is just what I use while their wings are active, until I have a chance to disable them for the combo.

John_Falstaff

TheYKcid wrote: »

1) No, Bloodspawn is most definitely not a dedicated mag sustain set. All 4 other classes—who derive no mag sustain from it—continue to use it extensively, because the mitigation and ultgen on their own are already good enough to justify it in a vacuum. DKs are actually getting even more mileage out of an already-stellar set.

2) You won't need to recast Obsidian if you aren't being attacked.

3)The other consequence of the "you won't cast ults on cooldown" line of reasoning is that you're just as likely to enter a fresh fight with a full ulti bar, meaning you have a on-demand 5k burst of mag restore at your fingertips.

Look, if you want to get into the minutiae of things, there's going to be a frivolous counterpoint to every frivolous point. The fact of the matter is that stamDKs can sustain wings indefinitely in a practical combat scenario with proper resource management and understanding of how offensive/defensive windows work.

All the post-hoc justification in the world doesn't change that.

1) For DK, it is a dedicated sustain set. ^^ You know it. And there are other good sets other classes make heavy use of (including more defensive and more offensive sets).

2) Well not being attacked isn't the case when you need 100% wings uptime, isn't it?

3) Fights aren't always short. Dropping ult when you're dry means you won't line up that burst when you got someone to execute, and it'll be plain wasted.

Of course there will be counterplay. But you're arguing that sDK can keep 100% effective wings uptime, and you're describing theoretical situation that is very far from practical combat. "Proper resource management" is dropping ult on cooldown? That's a whole lot of stretches in your argumentation.

TheYKcid

Other.

Attacking my argument for being "theoretical" when you were the first to bring up sustain/drain numbers is quite petty. I made a lot of concessions like not including for potions, disregarding any ult you might've begun the fight with, etc, but whatever, let's just be hyperbolic about dropping ults on cooldown and the semantics of a particular set. FYI, it's a theoretical assessment of something that happens in practice—often so—and not the other way around. Whether you disagree with my theory doesn't change what happens in reality.

There's not really more I can add besides telling you to carefully reread my previous posts and refrain from misrepresenting them, so I'll leave with this—the premier duelling guild on PCNA bans wings in DK vs. ranged matchups. These are amongst extremely well-matched, top-tier players where fights can drag so long a timeout has to be called (I believe 15 minutes was the cutoff the last time I watched).

If DKs were gassing-out as fast as you seem to believe, there wouldn't remotely be grounds for such a rule.

John_Falstaff

@TheYKcid , well, the difference is, I was showing how much regen do you need, while you've been showing how can you get that regen in a clearly unrealistic scenario. Sorry, but that is petty.

And I am sorry, the gimmicks of "premier" guilds is not an argument for anything at all, let's not have that cult of personality here. Top tier guilds' rules are more of spontaneously disseminating cargo cult than anything. If that's the strongest argument against wings, then you've done yourself a disservice. I'm okay finishing the argument at that.

Solariken

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@TheYKcid , well, the difference is, I was showing how much regen do you need, while you've been showing how can you get that regen in a clearly unrealistic scenario. Sorry, but that is petty.

And I am sorry, the gimmicks of "premier" guilds is not an argument for anything at all, let's not have that cult of personality here. Top tier guilds' rules are more of spontaneously disseminating cargo cult than anything. If that's the strongest argument against wings, then you've done yourself a disservice. I'm okay finishing the argument at that.

I'm just not sure how you don't see the light my man. @TheYKcid showed some nice math which is still super conservative, not accounting for other gains in normal combat like potions, Undaunted Command procs, choice of item set, Shards, argonian, etc etc. Back when Wings was only 4 seconds in duration it actually took a bit of skill to maintain, sometimes. Now it's laughably easy.

I can no longer count on 2 hands the number of bg games I've played that have consisted of 100% Dk and Warden. Wings may not be the strongest skill in every scenario, but it is a complete shutdown vs a whole category of builds and IMO that warrants a change.

leeux

Other.

For stave users to deal with wings: Isn't it that force shock/crushing shock are immune to reflect? Weren't they made non-reflectable a long time ago?

jcm2606

Other.

Solariken wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@TheYKcid , well, the difference is, I was showing how much regen do you need, while you've been showing how can you get that regen in a clearly unrealistic scenario. Sorry, but that is petty.

And I am sorry, the gimmicks of "premier" guilds is not an argument for anything at all, let's not have that cult of personality here. Top tier guilds' rules are more of spontaneously disseminating cargo cult than anything. If that's the strongest argument against wings, then you've done yourself a disservice. I'm okay finishing the argument at that.

I'm just not sure how you don't see the light my man. @TheYKcid showed some nice math which is still super conservative, not accounting for other gains in normal combat like potions, Undaunted Command procs, choice of item set, Shards, argonian, etc etc. Back when Wings was only 4 seconds in duration it actually took a bit of skill to maintain, sometimes. Now it's laughably easy.

I can no longer count on 2 hands the number of bg games I've played that have consisted of 100% Dk and Warden. Wings may not be the strongest skill in every scenario, but it is a complete shutdown vs a whole category of builds and IMO that warrants a change.

The thing is, it is math that doesn't take into account other skills sharing the same resource pool, and it is math that conflates a 1v1 scenario with any other PVP scenario, which, as John said, is an unrealistic scenario.

Sure, you could indefinitely sustain wings in a 1v1, assuming you know precisely when to cast it when you need it, but in a 1vX or XvX scenario, you are going to have to keep it up all the time, you won't be able to drop your ultimate off of cooldown to keep resources flowing in, and it is going to be sharing the same resource pool as your armour buffs, your healing buffs, your main form of crowd control, and, if we're talking about a magDK, the rest of your kit.

People have issues sustaining wings in 1vX or XvX scenarios, not because they're bad, but because they have to dedicate a huge chunk of their magicka pool to keeping it up, while also keeping their other utility skills up, while also timing their ultimate as that is their main form of burst.

There's a reason the game isn't balanced around 1v1's. A lot of the time they don't translate over to 1vX or XvX well at all.

TheYKcid

Other.

I'm well-aware that wings don't scale well for 1vX lol (then again what does, aside from cloak & rolldodge?). Which is why I suggested early-on in the thread that while the skill should be toned-down to allow for more counterplay 1v1, it should also be counterbuffed to compensate, and make it much more useful when outnumbered. Seems like the natural way to normalise the extremes in performance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5720750/#Comment_5720750

Sharee

Other.

Solariken wrote: »

I'm just not sure how you don't see the light my man. @TheYKcid showed some nice math which is still super conservative, not accounting for other gains in normal combat like potions, Undaunted Command procs, choice of item set, Shards, argonian, etc etc.

It also assumes that 1, Bloodspawn procs on cooldown, and 2, wings only have to be cast every 4 seconds.

But if 2 is true, then 1 can't be, because bloodspawn only procs when you take damage, not when you reflect it. If someone bombards you with projectiles so often that it procs bloodspawn on cooldown, that means they are getting through the wings, and that means the wings dont last 4 seconds, and have to be spammed nonstop to prevent damage, significantly increasing the magicka drain(up to 4x if spammed every second). Ironically, doing so prevents bloodspawn from proccing, killing your magicka sustain from it, leaving you in an even deeper hole.

LaveniaRose

Other.

I'm not sure how itshould be changed. I'm not a fan of how effective it is against magicka nightblades though or even templars based on playstyle. Maybe it reflects direct damage and the first dot tick? Really not sure, but even not playing a dk I think it should be effective against snipe, javelin, etc.

TheYKcid

Other.

Sharee wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm just not sure how you don't see the light my man. @TheYKcid showed some nice math which is still super conservative, not accounting for other gains in normal combat like potions, Undaunted Command procs, choice of item set, Shards, argonian, etc etc.

It also assumes that 1, Bloodspawn procs on cooldown, and 2, wings only have to be cast every 4 seconds.

But if 2 is true, then 1 can't be, because bloodspawn only procs when you take damage, not when you reflect it. If someone bombards you with projectiles so often that it procs bloodspawn on cooldown, that means they are getting through the wings, and that means the wings dont last 4 seconds, and have to be spammed nonstop to prevent damage, significantly increasing the magicka drain(up to 4x if spammed every second). Ironically, doing so prevents bloodspawn from proccing, killing your magicka sustain from it, leaving you in an even deeper hole.

I specifically stated Bloodspawn was given a 50% uptime in my calculations. As for it only proccing when projectiles? Cmon. DoTs, PBAoEs, poisons... tons of minor, incidental damage sources are ticking all the time and proccing it. 50% is a very conservative BS uptime.

And what is it with this persistent myth about people blowing through wings with 4 projectiles with no consequences? I covered it in great detail in previous posts, but I'll reiterate that each and every one of those projectiles is hitting the caster—in addition to whatever the DKs themself is dishing out—and the sheer amount of inbound damage + CCs guarantees they're on a defensive window for the next 4 GCDs. Wings may only have lasted 2 seconds, but it won you control of the fight for a full 6. You never have to cast it any more frequently then that, and that's what is meant by effective uptime, as opposed to literal uptime. If you're literally spamming it in a panic the instant it drops regardless of context, you deserve to go OoM.

Of course this is all within the context of a 1v1. I already stated I know wings doesn't scale the same way 1vX. But once again, what magicka-based ability aside from cloak does?

TheYKcid wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The skill is fine.

it reflects....FOUR SKILLS. That's two light attack, reach combos...ANY DK. That spamma wing is going to die from lack resources. It's their protection from ranged builds. I completely disagree with the idea its unbalanced

Yeah. Sure. And if it worked like Shimmering (purely absorbing) it would be the end of story and that would be that.

However.

You conveniently omitted the fact that all 4 of the attacks towards wings are going to bounce right back at the originating Sorc/Magblade. 2 full GCDs worth of attacks. During these two seconds, deducting 1 GCD for the actual casting of wings, the DK will be able to fit-in one more weave + spammable completely unhindered since they're taking zero incoming pressure.

So you now have a DK that's taken zero damage, while the Sorc/Magblade has taken a full 3 GCDs worth of weaves + spammables.

What does a Sorc/Magblade do in such a scenario, having taken enough damage to whittle half their healthpool away? Well, spend the next 3-4 GCDs on defensive abilties—shields/cloak/heals, you name it—maybe even initially wasting a big chunk of stam on blockcasting, too, since you're well in burst range of a leap at that point. All the while receiving that sweet, sweet DK DoT pressure.

Oh, did I mention you should also expect to get fossilized (or otherwise CC'd) during the above sequence of events? Burn another GCD on breaking free.

The end result of this dynamic is that for every one cast of wings, the DK gains near-total control of the fight for the next 6 to 7 seconds. When people say DKs have 100% uptime on wings, they don't mean it in an absolute sense—that would just be mindless spamming, and is frankly an insult to both parties' intelligence. 100% effective uptime, on the other hand, means it's up whenever you need it, and you can see from the above example that this is really just once every 6-7 seconds.

You can absolutely sustain that on the mag returns from Constitution and Battle Roar, even on a StamDK. The people claiming you can't are either being dishonest, or just haven't learned proper resource management.