Kick fake dps in undaunted event?

D0PAMINE

VaranisArano wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

You get tickets from beating the final boss of any dungeon. Pledges, LFG, Random Dungeon, Groupfinder, not required.

If you want the Mysterious Reward Boxes, those you get from your Daily Random Dungeons.

For me, my threshold for kicking a DD is:
Did they go AFK for a while with no warning?
Can we literally not pass the DPS check in this dungeon?
Are they refusing to follow necessary mechanics?
Can we complete the dungeon but its going to take hours with the current DPS (and I expect to get better with a random person from groupfinder)?

Personally, I'd just queue for the Daily Random Normal, because those you can complete with first time players as long as they are willing to listen to mechanics.

I agree with all but the last bullet point. Not that I outright disagree with it, but I have a scale as to whether or not I would kick them. If they are 200 or higher CP and their DPS is so low that trash packs take 5 minutes each, then yeah. But if they are lowbies, I tend to feel more sympathetic.

For sure. I'm willing to put in a lot more effort with someone who's new, low level, or its one of their first times in the dungeon.

Some of the longest, grindiest, and best runs I've had were Darkshade 2 with people who'd never done it or never managed to conplete it before. Its something special to take someone on their first run through a dungeon and make it a success.

I took a group of newer players in DS II and on the final boss, asked them if they wanted me to just kill the boss as fast as I could and have them rez and they were fine with that. We still do dungeons and they're getting better with either doing mechanics or outright skipping them. They grow up so fast.

BretonMage

Dear ZOS,

Please give us a solo mode for dungeons and random dungeon finder. See below for reasons. Thank you.

templesus wrote: »

If they’re not pulling atleast 25-30k they’re gone. Call me “Elitist” and what not I really don’t care. At the end of the day if when I’m pulling 52k on a 3mil solo on my magplar then everyone else can put in half the effort I did and pull atleast 25-30.

Not asking much. Literally half the effort i put in myself.

Skeough11 wrote: »

If they queue as a dps and don't do atleast 20k I will kick them. Same as fake tanks so fake dps get kicked.

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

How about just be a decent human being

Yeah. I wish free loaders que vet can be decent rather than leech.

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

And here I was told PvP is toxic

Not as toxic as fake pve elitists who complain about low dps in normals. Damn, if you're so great, can't you carry a team in normals?

‘No one play real tank’ says trash tier dps.
‘Carry on your 5k dps at best actual pve tank’ says other trash dps. Srsly?

mocap

65k group DPS (25k + 25k + 15K from healer and tank together) is ok for any dungeon, if everyone follow mechanics and healer is healer and tank is tank

blacksghost

eso Is played by a huge spectrum of players with a huge range of abilities, just because not everyone gets it all perfect or to a high level doesn’t make them fake and certainly shouldn’t exclude them from taking part in events.

Dungeons are for all not just Jerks

If you kick anyone make it yourself

DirkRavenclaw

I vote to kick when people rush the Dungeon and I will run 13 random ones on EU and NA Server. Be as fast as the slowest member of your team. Last year we did the same thing, DPS or fake doesn't matter in normal, having fun and going slowly, without skipping does

heaven13

Seri wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

There's no such thing as "fake" DPS. There's bad DPS, but not fake DPS.
There are fake tanks and healers because of people queuing as those to get in a shorter queue, but nobody ever queues as a DPS because they're trying to get in a shorter line to get in.
There are only three things you can queue as: healer, tank and DPS. If people know they aren't a tank or healer, then DPS is the only other option to pick.

You're going to be using the dungeon finder. Some people are going to stink at their roles. Suck it up or don't do it at all.

On a technical level, I agree that there's no 'fake' dps for the purpose of queue jumping, but what's the realistic difference between a real tank trying (and failing) where they have multiple taunts but forgetting to block, forgetting to keep taunt up, running out of resources and dying, and a dps with 40k health light-attacking everything? Based on the various threads I read, I still feel like the tank would be kicked but everyone would defend the DPS that they're 'just bad, not fake'.

That's a bad tank, not a fake tank. There's a difference. Fake tanks have no taunts and only queued for the role to bypass the wait.

Glurin

heaven13 wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

There's no such thing as "fake" DPS. There's bad DPS, but not fake DPS.
There are fake tanks and healers because of people queuing as those to get in a shorter queue, but nobody ever queues as a DPS because they're trying to get in a shorter line to get in.
There are only three things you can queue as: healer, tank and DPS. If people know they aren't a tank or healer, then DPS is the only other option to pick.

You're going to be using the dungeon finder. Some people are going to stink at their roles. Suck it up or don't do it at all.

On a technical level, I agree that there's no 'fake' dps for the purpose of queue jumping, but what's the realistic difference between a real tank trying (and failing) where they have multiple taunts but forgetting to block, forgetting to keep taunt up, running out of resources and dying, and a dps with 40k health light-attacking everything? Based on the various threads I read, I still feel like the tank would be kicked but everyone would defend the DPS that they're 'just bad, not fake'.

That's a bad tank, not a fake tank. There's a difference. Fake tanks have no taunts and only queued for the role to bypass the wait.

Yup, pretty much this. Fake tanks are usually easy to spot because they have no taunt, keel over whenever a stiff breeze hits them and often complain about getting grouped with a bunch of "fake dps". Bad tanks at least try to do the job and can take a few hits.

It's actually kinda hard to be a fake DPS. Bad DPS is a dime a dozen, but fake DPS are basically things like trying to heal the boss to death. It just doesn't happen. At least not with any frequency beyond obvious troll level.

Royaji

Glurin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

There's no such thing as "fake" DPS. There's bad DPS, but not fake DPS.
There are fake tanks and healers because of people queuing as those to get in a shorter queue, but nobody ever queues as a DPS because they're trying to get in a shorter line to get in.
There are only three things you can queue as: healer, tank and DPS. If people know they aren't a tank or healer, then DPS is the only other option to pick.

You're going to be using the dungeon finder. Some people are going to stink at their roles. Suck it up or don't do it at all.

On a technical level, I agree that there's no 'fake' dps for the purpose of queue jumping, but what's the realistic difference between a real tank trying (and failing) where they have multiple taunts but forgetting to block, forgetting to keep taunt up, running out of resources and dying, and a dps with 40k health light-attacking everything? Based on the various threads I read, I still feel like the tank would be kicked but everyone would defend the DPS that they're 'just bad, not fake'.

That's a bad tank, not a fake tank. There's a difference. Fake tanks have no taunts and only queued for the role to bypass the wait.

Yup, pretty much this. Fake tanks are usually easy to spot because they have no taunt, keel over whenever a stiff breeze hits them and often complain about getting grouped with a bunch of "fake dps". Bad tanks at least try to do the job and can take a few hits.

It's actually kinda hard to be a fake DPS. Bad DPS is a dime a dozen, but fake DPS are basically things like trying to heal the boss to death. It just doesn't happen. At least not with any frequency beyond obvious troll level.

If you consider that the main goal of a tank is to taunt and stay alive and the main goal of a healer is to heal and keep the team alive and a fake tank/fake healer does not perform that goal it is not a big stretch to say that the main goal of DD is to do damage and someone with 5k DPS is indeed a fake DD.

Vildebill

This thread shows perfectly why the tank/healer queue is empty and the DPS queue takes 40 minutes. Everyone and their mother are DPS, and a huge amount of them are "fake" DPS, dealing 5k damage or similar. Explains all the fake DPS defense here.

Just be the decent human being you all agree upon, and don't queue for a Vet dungeon if you can't deal enough damage.

John_Falstaff

@Royaji , the size of the stretch is subjective. 5k is damage too. Someone will call it 'low damage', someone 'no damage', some will say it's all right. For a normal non-DLC dungeon, it's all right for sure. Tank and healer are more or less binary roles, they have well-defined criteria on actions they're supposed to do. There is no such criteria on damage.

John_Falstaff

And @Vildebill , it implies that you know you deal low damage, but thing is, there are plenty of people who are new to the game, or just casual players mostly doing overland and questing. They're inexperience and they don't even know what sort of damage they do. They push buttons, stuff dies, that's all they know; it falls to the people they're grouped with - experienced people - to teach them how to do more and give them a nudge in right direction.

Royaji

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Royaji , the size of the stretch is subjective. 5k is damage too. Someone will call it 'low damage', someone 'no damage', some will say it's all right. For a normal non-DLC dungeon, it's all right for sure. Tank and healer are more or less binary roles, they have well-defined criteria on actions they're supposed to do. There is no such criteria on damage.

5k is what a tank will be doing just by spamming pierce -> slash. No, it is objectively not damage.

Tatanko

I recently leveled a healer, and yesterday I decided to level a tank specifically for this event as well. I won't have the time to get my tank to L50, but he will have 750+ CP at his disposal and level-appropriate beginner tank gear and skills -- including a taunt! I may be new to tanking (and healing), but if I can help it, I won't drag the group down with me. That's the best I think we can hope for during this event.

John_Falstaff

@Royaji , that's your personal subjective opinion. ^^ Definition of damage is stuff that decreases enemy's health bar, so it is damage, if you want to be fully objective here.

There was another very embarrassing thread around that asked whether people will kick another DD if they're doing 66% of damage. Way to show just how subjective the notion of damage is. If I was to kick people every time I do 66%, I'd have to keep kicking solid DDs that do enough damage to clear vMoL. Let us not be elitist and just teach newbies how to do more. If we just want a dungeon with some minimal margin of damage - there's guild and friends for that.

Royaji

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Royaji , that's your personal subjective opinion. ^^ Definition of damage is stuff that decreases enemy's health bar, so it is damage, if you want to be fully objective here.

There was another very embarrassing thread around that asked whether people will kick another DD if they're doing 66% of damage. Way to show just how subjective the notion of damage is. If I was to kick people every time I do 66%, I'd have to keep kicking solid DDs that do enough damage to clear vMoL. Let us not be elitist and just teach newbies how to do more. If we just want a dungeon with some minimal margin of damage - there's guild and friends for that.

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD. A second tank will bring the same DPS and more survivability than a 5k DPS DD. So why bring that DD?

I'm not being elitist. As I said earlier I will do the event on a DD and solo or on a tank with a friend and duo the dungeon. What I won't do is solo queue as tank because then I have no means of carrying those fake DDs. You can only teach people who want to learn and most of those "5k heroes" do not want to learn, they want to be carried.

Coatmagic

paulychan wrote: »

Reasons to kick Dps.
1 - if they use a bow
2 - for fun, tons more out there
3 - their name
4 - failed dps check
5 - if they say hi in voice chat
6 - if they look at you too long
7 - for fun... again
8 - if they run around a lot
9 - if they die without a real tank and heals
10 - magsorc

^^ Reasons to not get involved at all ^^ is sadly the majority of EU player base mentality.

Good thing I got enough tickets already for my next feather, cause ZoS can take their 'group content' and shove it in their...

anyway, yeah thanks:
@ZOS_GinaBruno , do these guys even read the forums o.O
If you think the nastiness is only a few here on the forums maybe you should spend more time in your own £$%^&&*$! game.

Ohtimbar

This thread boosted my self esteem. I look forward to helping players during the event instead of behaving like a maladjusted trash person

Vildebill

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And @Vildebill , it implies that you know you deal low damage, but thing is, there are plenty of people who are new to the game, or just casual players mostly doing overland and questing. They're inexperience and they don't even know what sort of damage they do. They push buttons, stuff dies, that's all they know; it falls to the people they're grouped with - experienced people - to teach them how to do more and give them a nudge in right direction.

@John_Falstaff I agree, that's probably the main reason. What I don't agree upon is that it falls to the other people to teach them. Don't get my intentions wrong, I love the occasional PUG when you help new people through dungeons, making them better players, but the game itself is doing wrong not teaching new players how to do a dungeon. There should be some kind of undaunted guide where an NPC teaches players the basics of tanking, healing and damage dealing, and without completing it you shouldn't be able to use the dungeon finder. A solution like that would probably prohibit a huge amount of frustration.

Agenericname

Coatmagic wrote: »

paulychan wrote: »

Reasons to kick Dps.
1 - if they use a bow
2 - for fun, tons more out there
3 - their name
4 - failed dps check
5 - if they say hi in voice chat
6 - if they look at you too long
7 - for fun... again
8 - if they run around a lot
9 - if they die without a real tank and heals
10 - magsorc

^^ Reasons to not get involved at all ^^ is sadly the majority of EU player base mentality.

Good thing I got enough tickets already for my next feather, cause ZoS can take their 'group content' and shove it in their...

anyway, yeah thanks:
@ZOS_GinaBruno , do these guys even read the forums o.O
If you think the nastiness is only a few here on the forums maybe you should spend more time in your own £$%^&&*$! game.

I wouldn't say that the nastiness is relegated to the forums, but it is "few", at least on PC/NA.

For whatever reason people choose to focus on the bad. If many of us were to write about good or neutral encounters that we had in dungeons they would be numerous enough that "nerf" threads would be hard to spot.

I run about 5 a day, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's rare that I find someone that is truly contentious.

LeagueTroll

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

Lol, OP, was it you on PC NA server in Grathwood yelling in the zone chat that you need 100.000k dps and everyone else is a trash tier?

It looks like you queues sometimes take longer than dps queues xD Oh no, wait, even longer since you are getting kicked from groups for your 12 years old attitude.

Hmm sounds like something i say for dsa.

paulychan

Coatmagic wrote: »

paulychan wrote: »

Reasons to kick Dps.
1 - if they use a bow
2 - for fun, tons more out there
3 - their name
4 - failed dps check
5 - if they say hi in voice chat
6 - if they look at you too long
7 - for fun... again
8 - if they run around a lot
9 - if they die without a real tank and heals
10 - magsorc

^^ Reasons to not get involved at all ^^ is sadly the majority of EU player base mentality.

Good thing I got enough tickets already for my next feather, cause ZoS can take their 'group content' and shove it in their...

anyway, yeah thanks:
@ZOS_GinaBruno , do these guys even read the forums o.O
If you think the nastiness is only a few here on the forums maybe you should spend more time in your own £$%^&&*$! game.

Satire
Very obvious satire at that.
I roll dungeons a lot on my tank and heals and never kick. Rolled a low level vet last night with newer players and got them the HM finish. Took forever but at the end they were rolling good. This thread is satire imo. Ya, lots of kicks will haooen. None from me...
Unless. Well... The list lol

Tatanko

Royaji wrote: »

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD.

You need to look up the definition of the word "fake". It does not mean "failed" as you seem to think it does -- they are not synonyms. Fraud requires intent, which is something you have no proof of.

You're one of those people that uses the phrase "fake news" all the time, aren't you?

Royaji

Tatanko wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD.

You need to look up the definition of the word "fake". It does not mean "failed" as you seem to think it does -- they are not synonyms. Fraud requires intent, which is something you have no proof of.

You're one of those people that uses the phrase "fake news" all the time, aren't you?

This is going in circles. If a tank who is not taunting the boss is considered a fake tank, a healer who is not healing the group is considered a fake healer why wouldn't a DD who does so little damage that he could be replaced with a second tank without any losses (and with a second healer with a substantial DPS increase) be considered a fake DD?

Nice attempt at personal attack instead of actual arguments, btw.

jaws343

Royaji wrote: »

Tatanko wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD.

You need to look up the definition of the word "fake". It does not mean "failed" as you seem to think it does -- they are not synonyms. Fraud requires intent, which is something you have no proof of.

You're one of those people that uses the phrase "fake news" all the time, aren't you?

This is going in circles. If a tank who is not taunting the boss is considered a fake tank, a healer who is not healing the group is considered a fake healer why wouldn't a DD who does so little damage that he could be replaced with a second tank without any losses (and with a second healer with a substantial DPS increase) be considered a fake DD?

Nice attempt at personal attack instead of actual arguments, btw.

You are attempting to redefine the work Fake to mean unacceptable.

A fake tank or healer is someone who joins a queue as one of those roles with zero intentions to do those roles. A fake tank is not attempting to tank and a fake healer is not attempting to heal.

A failed tank who joins but is unsuccessful at taunting or blocking, but they are attempting to do the role they signed up for is completely different.

A DPS who queues in as DPS with sword and shield taunting the boss and tanking it, or with a restro staff healing the group is the only way a DPS can be fake.

A DPS who can only do 5K dps is just a bad dps, not a fake one.

Maybe learn to help the bad tanks, healers and dps in easy dungeons so that they get better. Rather than calling them fake and acting like you weren't bad at one point in the game. And I use the word "you" collectively and not to target you personally.

Riverlynn

This is all a moot point as far as this event goes - because now we have Fake Dungeons.

Agenericname

Riverlynn wrote: »

This is all a moot point as far as this event goes - because now we have Fake Dungeons.

That would be a failed queue as a fake queue would imply that it was something else pretending to be a real dungeon finder.

LeagueTroll

jaws343 wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Tatanko wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD.

You need to look up the definition of the word "fake". It does not mean "failed" as you seem to think it does -- they are not synonyms. Fraud requires intent, which is something you have no proof of.

You're one of those people that uses the phrase "fake news" all the time, aren't you?

This is going in circles. If a tank who is not taunting the boss is considered a fake tank, a healer who is not healing the group is considered a fake healer why wouldn't a DD who does so little damage that he could be replaced with a second tank without any losses (and with a second healer with a substantial DPS increase) be considered a fake DD?

Nice attempt at personal attack instead of actual arguments, btw.

You are attempting to redefine the work Fake to mean unacceptable.

A fake tank or healer is someone who joins a queue as one of those roles with zero intentions to do those roles. A fake tank is not attempting to tank and a fake healer is not attempting to heal.

A failed tank who joins but is unsuccessful at taunting or blocking, but they are attempting to do the role they signed up for is completely different.

A DPS who queues in as DPS with sword and shield taunting the boss and tanking it, or with a restro staff healing the group is the only way a DPS can be fake.

A DPS who can only do 5K dps is just a bad dps, not a fake one.

Maybe learn to help the bad tanks, healers and dps in easy dungeons so that they get better. Rather than calling them fake and acting like you weren't bad at one point in the game. And I use the word "you" collectively and not to target you personally.

Oh so there is supposedly to be an actual minimum requirement for tank but no mimimum requirement for dd. Sounds very fair.

Maybe to best way to encourage bad healer and bad tank is make sure they don’t get the blame when dps is trash.

StormChaser3000

LeagueTroll wrote: »

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

Lol, OP, was it you on PC NA server in Grathwood yelling in the zone chat that you need 100.000k dps and everyone else is a trash tier?

It looks like you queues sometimes take longer than dps queues xD Oh no, wait, even longer since you are getting kicked from groups for your 12 years old attitude.

Hmm sounds like something i say for dsa.

That definitely wasn't DSA. I don't remember exactly but it was 100% one of the lower tier vet dungeons, like BC 1 or FG 1. But even in case of DSA (which is actually easy too) why would anyone post stuff like that? You get the same attitude in response as you give them.

Hint: being nice to other people makes miracles and improves the aftertaste from dungeons a lot.

LeagueTroll

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

Lol, OP, was it you on PC NA server in Grathwood yelling in the zone chat that you need 100.000k dps and everyone else is a trash tier?

It looks like you queues sometimes take longer than dps queues xD Oh no, wait, even longer since you are getting kicked from groups for your 12 years old attitude.

Hmm sounds like something i say for dsa.

That definitely wasn't DSA. I don't remember exactly but it was 100% one of the lower tier vet dungeons, like BC 1 or FG 1. But even in case of DSA (which is actually easy too) why would anyone post stuff like that? You get the same attitude in response as you give them.

Hint: being nice to other people makes miracles and improves the aftertaste from dungeons a lot.

Hell no, I don’t want to play with potato and run into dps issue. I want to play with ppl who can do the dmg. Then I need to care about is mechanics.

Being nice to trash resulted in me progressing much slower in my first year of eso.

Royaji

jaws343 wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Tatanko wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Again, if a dedicated DD is doing the same damage as a dedicated tank he completely failed at his main goal and is indeed a fake DD.

You need to look up the definition of the word "fake". It does not mean "failed" as you seem to think it does -- they are not synonyms. Fraud requires intent, which is something you have no proof of.

You're one of those people that uses the phrase "fake news" all the time, aren't you?

This is going in circles. If a tank who is not taunting the boss is considered a fake tank, a healer who is not healing the group is considered a fake healer why wouldn't a DD who does so little damage that he could be replaced with a second tank without any losses (and with a second healer with a substantial DPS increase) be considered a fake DD?

Nice attempt at personal attack instead of actual arguments, btw.

You are attempting to redefine the work Fake to mean unacceptable.

A fake tank or healer is someone who joins a queue as one of those roles with zero intentions to do those roles. A fake tank is not attempting to tank and a fake healer is not attempting to heal.

A failed tank who joins but is unsuccessful at taunting or blocking, but they are attempting to do the role they signed up for is completely different.

A DPS who queues in as DPS with sword and shield taunting the boss and tanking it, or with a restro staff healing the group is the only way a DPS can be fake.

A DPS who can only do 5K dps is just a bad dps, not a fake one.

Maybe learn to help the bad tanks, healers and dps in easy dungeons so that they get better. Rather than calling them fake and acting like you weren't bad at one point in the game. And I use the word "you" collectively and not to target you personally.

Alright, this is a better argument than the previous poster presented. I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm bending the definition a bit. Although I still consider that "fake DD" is a very good way to desctibe some players.

But we are back to going in circles. You can only teach people who are willing to learn. A lot of those "fake DDs" (and I'll put that in quotation marks from now on) are not interested in getting better. They think that 5k DPS with bow light attacks on a sorc with 20 points in stamina, 30 in health (cause they stand in stupid and die otherwis) and 10 in magicka (because they are a spell-bow) is good enough and the other DD can carry them. Issues arise when two of these players end up in the same group.

I personally consider such behaviour equally selfish as fake tanking.