Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

Feric51

MacMurroughTheFirst wrote: »

"When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

"The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore."

These sound like two very interesting ideas. I'm curious to find out more about this.

They sound like conflicting ideas to me. "Let's make everyone the same, but wait, they'll still be different...."

Following that logic, they might as well let you just pick your race based on appearance and personal preference and then select from three groups of racial passives. It just feels like another attempt to make the game more vanilla than ever, and decrease diversity.

Onefrkncrzypope

For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

tinythinker

So...

...what exactly is exactly is the big-picture vision? Related goals?

We read that changes are made to "drive" player behavior in a certain direction, but are those just on-the-fly adjustments made using options with the least amount of coding/animation updates (despite side-effects? Or is there an actual, particular idea about what combat should look and feel like? Like an image in the devs mind when they picture PvE or PvP combat through their imagination?

The game had balance issues at launch, but it was fluid and fast-paced and built in some rewards for smarter Then there was the drive to push heavy attacks/nerf resources, centralize weaving/canceling, and make key skills weaker or shorter.

It still has balance issues, but now people must resource stack and the best results are limited to a narrow range of set, rotations, and ways of using input devices. Some like it, some don't, some left because of it, but it doesn't feel like a clear picture or style.

When will that be shared/described?

dpencil1

While I do appreciate the transparency here, I can't help but feel disappointed for several reasons:
1. Significant problems with changes made in U20 which have lead to players completely shelving certain builds are likely to continue to go unaddressed for 6 months+. I can't imagine that's good for player retention. We don't even know if the concerns we have are things the dev team wants to make further adjustments to. (I'm speaking here primarily as a pet sorc, frustrated with bar space issues, but lots of other playstyles have been effected as well)
2. The fact that there hasn't been a long-term goal in place, at least since Morrowind, is really concerning. It certainly lends validity to the complaints that changes have been too heavy-handed and lacking a comprehensive understanding of their effects and side-effects. I'm glad the discussion is finally being had, but it's a big ask to expect us to wait a year (which is likely how long it will take) to really see the fruits of any large-scale combat overhauls...and to hold out hope that the changes would actually be for the best.
3. I can't help but sense that rather than meaningfully buffing races with weaker passives, we are going to see major staple races like High Elf be hit with nerfs. I understand that power creep is something devs should generally attempt to avoid, but the constant nerfing of things that worked fine before just sucks the joy out of the game, especially for veteran players.

I really hope that the Community Representative program can act as a positive influence in this process in keeping the dev team and player community on the same page and making the game more fun for everyone.

Godspeed.

todokete

Fix weaving

Recremen

It's great that you're reaching out in this way, I know a lot of high-engagement players really appreciate the time you take for such things. I do have a criticism regarding the goal of racials, however. While racials have been an RPG staple for many different IPs, including most (but not all!) TES games, I think it would be better long-term to move away from them and incorporate their functionality into a different system.

I know that's controversial, but racials have simply never been consistent across TES titles, so trying to chase a lore angle is a self-defeating venture as you're basically just cherry-picking which game to use as a throwback for each race. Consider Breton as a case study. Their positive Attribute bonuses have been quite consistent, but their negative attributes have been pretty all over the place. And which powers do you give? The bonus Magicka, magicka resistance, and magic shield from Oblivion? The Fatigue and Health recovery from Shadowkey? The nothing from Battlespire because they decided to do an "Advantages" system and leave these things up to the player? Can they just be good at everything?

Moreover, and probably even more controversially, it's pretty gross in the modern age that all these races have such severe differences from each other (even just among humans or just among elves) to demonstrate palpable gameplay differences, even though that's not A Thing in real life. I don't know about anyone else, but Nords and Redguards being "strong but dumb" as far as Attribute bonuses go has always felt a little off. And by "a little off" I mean "a disgusting but persistent reflection of 1900's-era race theory which never had a basis in genetic science but still subtly fuels racist stereotyping even into the present day."

You know, not to get too political about it, but I feel like when there are better, more socially-conscious and lore-supported systems out there (again, the Advantages system from Battlespire comes to mind) it behooves us to at least open that up for discussion instead of bowing to an industry standard. Plus I imagine it would make the balance struggle easier as you don't need to juggle railroaded skill buckets and can instead make skills individually balance with each other.

LonePirate

Fewer changes to the combat system seems like a good idea. Reviewing/fixing racial passives seems like a solid approach for the next update. Please proceed.

Princess_Ciri

The most important thing is that if racial passives are largely reworked to the point where a race is no longer BiS (redguard, high elf, dark elf etc) that we are allowed to race change for free. A lot of players pick races based on what is most optimal, and it will really suck if I have to pay for race changes bc of this.

Rake

Race buffs > Race nerfs

nightstrike

IMO, it'd be better to focus an entire development cycle on bug fixes, UI improvements, graphics enhancements, etc.

Defilted

"When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

Maybe you have in mind what you are doing already, but as it has been suggested in the past is there any consideration to opening all racial passives and allowing each player to pick the passives they want within reason.

1 Stat bonus
1 recovering bonus
1 damage or mitigation bonus
1 non stat bonus like sneak speed or pickpocketing


This would allow players to choose the race they want for looks , but the passives they want for the class the are building. I am sure this would also allow more min/maxing of racial abilities and certain groups would require specific racials for this or that group type but this kind of behavior is already happening.

I am also sure this has the potential for abuse, but would allow you to balance the racials independently from each other.

macsmooth

The biggest issue here is a lot of people including myself don’t have any faith in this game anymore, you want to talk race to avoid the questions being asked, you say there’s a long term vision but then say your still checking stats and nothing is set in stone.

You make this post thinking you can divert thinking by offering a carrot after you already used the stick on everyone’s builds and what a big stick it was.

You want us to stay quiet/patient until next year keep our subscription going believing there’s a big plan when nobody is believing this anymore because of the said stick and the fact your not telling us what the plan is after you made the biggest changes to the game play so far.

Carrots don’t makeup for stick beatings be honest you messed up with the changes

CosmicChaos

I just hope this means making racial passives have more an impact and not nerfing the existing ones to be as bad as others. With what was said it definitely sounds like a good move, but I have been fooled before. And they need to offer one free race change token once the changes are made.

Hearts_Wake

idk wrote: »

No offense, but considering the seemingly lack of direction Zos has had with these changes, leading to heavy handed changes, I do not see that the message offered in this thread offers anything meaningful.

I think we all know we can expect more heavy handed changes from a group that is challenged playing their own game just as we say a month ago and multiple times this past year and before.

As long as Zos lacks a vision yet uses the word loosely this will not change. Real change starts with the leadership. Zos needs some.

This is absolutely, 100%, true.

RaddlemanNumber7

Thanks for sharing. I look forward to U21.

Kinnahz

Everyone get ready for nerfs to Redguard, Argonian and Dunmers. Start saving your crowns for race change tokens.

macsmooth

Also I would like to add that I am very disappointed in the fact that the race card was used here, there is enough issues in the world today without more racial issues being thrown about

Guess the next class to this game will be the trump class

Jakx

Racial balance changes. A ploy to get people to spend money race changing? Otherwise the good faith thing to do if sweeping power changes occur would be to allow the freedom to change races for a given time period.


Another interesting note. This is a subtle admission that the developer team actually doesn't have a long term plan for combat and wings it between updates. I'm torn between giving praise for admitting this and looking to rectify this situation to the entire games benefit versus wondering how this game has gotten so far with such poor management at the top. I've speculated about this in other posts I've made but it's evident that new leadership is necessary on the ESO development team to coincide with planning for the future of the game. This shouldn't be something you're just looking into now but to your credit thank Akatosh you are going to now.

Minno

Defilted wrote: »

"When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

Maybe you have in mind what you are doing already, but as it has been suggested in the past is there any consideration to opening all racial passives and allowing each player to pick the passives they want within reason.

1 Stat bonus
1 recovering bonus
1 damage or mitigation bonus
1 non stat bonus like sneak speed or pickpocketing


This would allow players to choose the race they want for looks , but the passives they want for the class the are building. I am sure this would also allow more min/maxing of racial abilities and certain groups would require specific racials for this or that group type but this kind of behavior is already happening.

I am also sure this has the potential for abuse, but would allow you to balance the racials independently from each other.

Some of the races already have this in a way.

breton:
1 Stat: max mag
1 recov: cost reduction
1 dmg/mit: spell resists
1 non stat: AP gain + light armor experience gain

argonian:
1 Stat: max health
1 recov: pot passive
1 dmg/mit: increased healing (10% self with 5% others) and poison + disease resistance (immune to poison and diseased from status effect procs)
1 non stat: resto staff experience + swim speed

imperial:
1 Stat: massive stam+health
1 recov: n/a
1 dmg/mit: 10% heal on melee attacks but that's it.
1 non stat: gold gain + snb experience.

nord:
1 Stat: health+stamina
1 recov: health recovery (missing stamina recovery)
1 dmg/mit: 8% mit + frost resistance
1 non stat: two hand experience + drink duration

orc:
1 Stat: health and stam
1 recov: health recovery
1 dmg/mit: sprint speed + melee damage+healing received
1 non stat: crafting inspiration + sprint cost reduction

redguard:
1 Stat: stam
1 recov: stam recovery and recovery via melee attacks
1 dmg/mit: (missing other dmg or mit )
1 non stat: food buff (missing other buff )

high elf:
1 Stat: max mag
1 recov: mag rec
1 dmg/mit: only elemental damage, but no mitigation
1 non stat: experience gain + destro experience

wood elf
1 Stat: max stam
1 recov: stam rev
1 dmg/mit: poison and disease resistance/immune to poison and disease status
1 non stat: less fall dmg

dark elf:
1 Stat: stam + mag
1 recov:
1 dmg/mit: immune to burning, fire+ice/lighting dmg
1 non stat: lava dmg reduction + dw experience

kitty:
1 Stat: (missing stats entirely)
1 recov: health+stam recov
1 dmg/mit: stealth damage+weapon critical
1 non stat: pickpocket+medium armor experience+reduces detection area

Seems balanced except bold is missing based on that lineup. Great comment!

Derra

I really fear that this means magica sorc will get stuck with being a subpar class in competetive fights for not 3 months but rather 6 or 9.

Really hope that i´m wrong and that few class changes mean that obvious flawed skills like boundless storm (cost/range), runecage (why does it not deal dmg now that it´s avoidable) or healing (just about any not consuming 2 barslots and being killable would be nice) get adressed.

But it reads like they won´t.

I think it´s good to focus on less change but doing the right ones instead. But i feel with the current classbalance this is not the point to take this approach.

Irylia

Goblin Race please

weedgenius

dpencil1 wrote: »

The fact that there hasn't been a long-term goal in place, at least since Morrowind, is really concerning. It certainly lends validity to the complaints that changes have been too heavy-handed and lacking a comprehensive understanding of their effects and side-effects. I'm glad the discussion is finally being had, but it's a big ask to expect us to wait a year (which is likely how long it will take) to really see the fruits of any large-scale combat overhauls...and to hold out hope that the changes would actually be for the best.

Could not have said it better myself. This is an appreciated effort and I thank Rob for sharing the insight, but can you really be serious that no explicit long-term internal strategy for combat currently exists? This is essentially confirmation of the feeling many players have expressed frustration with: everything revolves around a heavy push for the new content update with no concept of how it impacts a bigger picture. Nearing four years since the game was released, it seems a bit late for the combat team to start figuring out what that "big picture" is.

ZOS_RobGarrett

Turelus wrote: »

Whilst looking at racial balancing can you please go and take a look at the Orc Craftsman skill. Whilst it's awesome for new characters it's the only racial passive which doesn't remain useful throughout the game (once you've leveled all crafting skills it's useless).

The Combat team is focusing specifically on the combat-related passive abilities. We currently don't have any changes planned for the non-combat racial passives.

Minno

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Whilst looking at racial balancing can you please go and take a look at the Orc Craftsman skill. Whilst it's awesome for new characters it's the only racial passive which doesn't remain useful throughout the game (once you've leveled all crafting skills it's useless).

The Combat team is focusing specifically on the combat-related passive abilities. We currently don't have any changes planned for the non-combat racial passives.

wait, they don't decide those passives? Interesting, would be good to see a chart of who controls what!

Jake1576

you guys need to also take a look at how much time it takes for console player's to get a patch for bugs you introduce into the game after each update it's ridiculous we have to wait weeks or months for a fix for such game breaking bugs you guys cause

jypcy

What it says:

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

A balance pass on racial passive abilities

What I read:

oh no my lizards

CrimsonGTX

I somewhat expect disappointment, it will most likely be a nerf Argonian, High Elf, Dark elf and Redguard. Lore wise these race are in-line with past Elder Scrolls games. Except that Imperials should have the Resourceful passive that Argonians have, and Redguard should have 50% Poison resist included in their passives somewhere.

All zenimax can do from this point is add some buffs to other racial passives......but i doubt that would be the case.

casparian

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

• When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role.
• The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.
• Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up.
• The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

I smell multiple morphs of racial passives. That would be an interesting change.

wildbear247

The U21 forecast sounds promising. Always appreciated when you (ZOS) take the time to interact with the players, thank you very much for that.

Overall my main concern with future updates is there doesn't seem to be a mechanism in place for ZOS to identify the top concerns of players. I know you get a lot of feedback from players to sort through, and you must balance this with your vision of the game. But neither forum posts or class reps allow top concerns of ALL players ( including those that don't come to these forums) to bubble up to the surface.

AlienatedGoat

@ZOS_RobGarrett

I was wondering if you guys might do a rename on all the old sets so that they'd sort cleanly with the newer sets (e.g. Siroria's Sash).

It's really hard sometimes to find matching pieces and keep track of them in storage because they're spread out in the list. Just a small QoL change, but would make a huge difference for those of us with lots of sets.

TY for your hard work!