Nerf Ball Groups

pzschrek

^ Make no mistake, they don’t want to learn about the play style, man. They just want an “I win” button against organized groups and feel entitled to take out 20 people with 6 people for some reason.

On PC NA Vivec there’s only about 3 maybe 4 ballgroups in NA prime time that merit discussion anyway and the rest, while varying in degrees of skill, will generally wipe when slightly outnumbered by competent players.

Edit: I’ll also add that the most dangerous groups in map and score terms if you care about that are the medium organized groups that spearhead a faction attack. 10-12 organized people with emp-ring pug support get more done than the groups that go farm glade for an hour.

DivineFirstYOLO

pzschrek wrote: »

^ Make no mistake, they don’t want to learn about the play style, man. They just want an “I win” button against organized groups and feel entitled to take out 20 people with 6 people for some reason.

Exactly, that's what I said in a different thread aswell. People don't want to balance stuff, they want to ruin other play styles. Playing in a group of around 6-16 people is the last remaining thing that is fun in this game. To have less than 6 is almost impossible because you will get overrun by the pug zerg (talking about No CP, less than 6 and you will get rekt by 30..almost no way you can kill them).

In my experience there are 2 types of people crying about ballgroups:
-zerg surfers that stack up with the other "solo" players, that hunt 1 single guy over half the map for that juicy 30 AP.
- Fengrush and his close friends who feel entitled to kill good groups with way less people.

Don't get me wrong, I like Feng, he's a good guy and a great entertainer, but he makes the same mistake a lot of people do - he doesn't differ between
a) good organised groups, that do not stack with the rest of their alliance, that do not hunt single players, that have around 8-16 people in their group, that try to fight outnumbered and
b) groups with 24 people, that get carried by earthgore (yes it's still very strong), that surf on the pug zerg, that hunt single players, that are looking for fights where they can outnumber their enemies.

Oh, and latter also get carried by the resurrection system...they can have a few people that keep reviving people all the time without consequences. A change is long overdue.

So let's not nerf the good guys...

technohic

When you look at Rapids as an example, it cost the same if you buff 1 as it does buffing 10 with it.

I think personally; there should be a basic cost for abilities that effect one person. If that is 2000 resource, then affecting 2 people should be 4000, 3 people 8000, etc. You could exempt GBAOEs as those at least require placement and are not as easy to land on moving targets, although you could place limits there as well. Abilities can then be designed with that in mind. Breath of life as an example could be changed back to healing secondary targets better than Honor the dead as an example at an adjusted cost accounting for the return HTD gives in magicka and HTD should probably be self heal only.

Of course numbers and examples are just examples. My underlying point is standardized cost for number of people effected.

RedRook

rabidrufus64 wrote: »

now where does the term ball come from and what does it mean exactly? im assuming it has significance to "ball rooms" or nah

It came from "wrecking ball." A ball group was a pretty specific type of organized PVP group, not just "a large group with coms." Like most overused terms, it has lost much of its meaning. I blame EP*.









* Not really.

usmguy1234

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

If Zos would add a 25% debuff to group healing if the group size is over x number of players or if x number of allies are in x proximity that would be a start. Also needs to be a soul gem resurrection cool down.

CyrusArya

The only thing that needs to be nerfed about ball groups is rapid maneuvers. Small scalers had to adapt to the loss of mobility, and so it makes no sense that organized raids shouldn’t have to do so as well.

Joy_Division

@Tommy_The_Gun OK, what if people do think twice about joining a mindful group that has standards? "Mindless" ball groups in no way have to be nerfed because they aren't particularly strong, so why should ZOS go after them? At that point, it's just penalizing people who are actually good at the game for joining a group.

I do think the idea of multiple smaller groups has merit, but that would require quite of bit of mechanical changes. Looking for things ZOS can actually do that doesn't involve redoing the game engine or just slapping nerfs on people for playing they way they want.

@zyk 3.0? 4.2? It's been so long I don't remember which was what. If I do a search about ball groups from 2014 and even during the 3.0 patch, I will come across the same complaints that you are voicing, that because of the mechanics, "bad" players can take advantage and be much more effective than they're actual skill level. People have maintained it's always getting worse and somehow never been as pronounced as it is now because of _____________ changes that ZOS introduced. Back in the good old days, I didn't have swift jewelry, I could be snared in vamp mist, the gap closer snare was far more pronounced and the ball group rapids did not break on heals so they were relatively much more mobile than a solo player was, but somehow now it's never been worse?

You bring up that "*bad* ball groups" take large numbers to wipe because they spam heals and CC. OK, that's what all players, whether grouped or not, do. What's the issue here and what in your opinion ought to be changed?

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

@Lieblingsjunge - fair enough, the feedback ought to be objective.

I think you are right to point out that a lot of ego, one might say elitism, that gets thrown around in threads like this. A lot of the arguments reference pejoratives like "mindless zerglings" or more generally that "bad" or unskilled players are able to are somehow able to get kills and not die simply by virtue of being in a group. That players in "ball groups" are just terrible and not capable of doing these sorts of things without being carried. This is argumentation that I think ZOS is right to simply throw in the trashcan.

I play on NA and the majority of stack-on-crown groups are not something or strong enough that they are at an unfair advantage against a similar number of ungrouped players that know what they are doing. The few, and I can count them using one hand, that are noticeably stronger than a similar amount of PuGs are so because of the players in the group, as opposed the game's mechanics. I think this is the crucial point that complaints against ball group miss. People who play every night know there is a huge chasm between the best organized groups and the mediocre. Because this disparity exists, that would strongly suggest the most crucial component to the success of an organized group is not the game's mechanics, rather the skill of the players, which is how it should be.

If certain organized groups have remained very effective despite the changes made by the devs, a number of which were targeted at them, I think it's because those groups are comprised of players who have spent much of the past 4 years playing this game and know how to adapt.

@usmguy1234 - Why punish people and have different rules just for grouping up? Healers in organized groups are healing under the same conditions as those not in a group: if their healers are so much better, that's because the healers are better.

pzschrek

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically...the significant increase to the threat of siege

Case in point, I've only played in good ball groups for a year or so, and nothing has caused as much swearing and cursing in ball group comms as the siege buffs a couple patches back.

It turned breach fights and D ring defenses into a big headache for the decent ball groups...and an absolutely bloody abattoir of slaughter for everyone else, which is why they had to dial it back.

usmguy1234

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun OK, what if people do think twice about joining a mindful group that has standards? "Mindless" ball groups in no way have to be nerfed because they aren't particularly strong, so why should ZOS go after them? At that point, it's just penalizing people who are actually good at the game for joining a group.

I do think the idea of multiple smaller groups has merit, but that would require quite of bit of mechanical changes. Looking for things ZOS can actually do that doesn't involve redoing the game engine or just slapping nerfs on people for playing they way they want.

@zyk 3.0? 4.2? It's been so long I don't remember which was what. If I do a search about ball groups from 2014 and even during the 3.0 patch, I will come across the same complaints that you are voicing, that because of the mechanics, "bad" players can take advantage and be much more effective than they're actual skill level. People have maintained it's always getting worse and somehow never been as pronounced as it is now because of _____________ changes that ZOS introduced. Back in the good old days, I didn't have swift jewelry, I could be snared in vamp mist, the gap closer snare was far more pronounced and the ball group rapids did not break on heals so they were relatively much more mobile than a solo player was, but somehow now it's never been worse?

You bring up that "*bad* ball groups" take large numbers to wipe because they spam heals and CC. OK, that's what all players, whether grouped or not, do. What's the issue here and what in your opinion ought to be changed?

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

@Lieblingsjunge - fair enough, the feedback ought to be objective.

I think you are right to point out that a lot of ego, one might say elitism, that gets thrown around in threads like this. A lot of the arguments reference pejoratives like "mindless zerglings" or more generally that "bad" or unskilled players are able to are somehow able to get kills and not die simply by virtue of being in a group. That players in "ball groups" are just terrible and not capable of doing these sorts of things without being carried. This is argumentation that I think ZOS is right to simply throw in the trashcan.

I play on NA and the majority of stack-on-crown groups are not something or strong enough that they are at an unfair advantage against a similar number of ungrouped players that know what they are doing. The few, and I can count them using one hand, that are noticeably stronger than a similar amount of PuGs are so because of the players in the group, as opposed the game's mechanics. I think this is the crucial point that complaints against ball group miss. People who play every night know there is a huge chasm between the best organized groups and the mediocre. Because this disparity exists, that would strongly suggest the most crucial component to the success of an organized group is not the game's mechanics, rather the skill of the players, which is how it should be.

If certain organized groups have remained very effective despite the changes made by the devs, a number of which were targeted at them, I think it's because those groups are comprised of players who have spent much of the past 4 years playing this game and know how to adapt.

@usmguy1234 - Why punish people and have different rules just for grouping up? Healers in organized groups are healing under the same conditions as those not in a group: if their healers are so much better, that's because the healers are better.

I'm not saying punish healers but rather punish heal stacking. This has nothing to do with the quality of the healers but more so with the quantity of outgoing healing. When you can completely negate a small groups burst with a single earthgore proc that's a problem that has absolutely nothing to do with skill.

LarsS

Just an addition to @Joy_Division, good ball groups are good because they work together as a team, same is true for good small scale teams. You cant nerf good teamwork .

frozywozy

CyrusArya wrote: »

The only thing that needs to be nerfed about ball groups is rapid maneuvers. Small scalers had to adapt to the loss of mobility, and so it makes no sense that organized raids shouldn’t have to do so as well.

No, the nerf was not needed at all for both playstyles since the snares already so hard to manage. What had to be nerfed for both playstyles was the max speed you can obtain by combining different mechanics and that was dealt with already.

There was no reason to reduce the duration of forward momentum, at least not that drastically and the proper change would be to revert what was done for Murkmire and bring it back to a good 8 seconds.

VaranisArano

The top tier ball groups, the really good organized raids, the ones that I see adapting patch after patch and staying on top?

Those have experienced players for leaders, even if their raid members may change.

And I'll be the first to admit that as someone who primarily plays as a group healer, I probably fall into the category of "bad player" if you meet me in a 1v1 on my healer. But Ive been doing organized group healing (and also PUG healing) for over a year, and I know how to do that well.

So when you see a good organized raid staying alive in siege and AOEs vs the zergs and all that? Its a highly coordinated group effort by people who practice their role in the group and working as a team. A mindless healer is a dead healer. A team that doesn't protect their rezzers is going to be a dead team. If we make it look mindless, its because we've practiced it like a basketball team practices plays over hours and hours of Cyrodiil gameplay.

Its okay if organized large group combat isn't your thing - I dont expect everyone to like it. But for those of us who enjoy it and want to do it well, there definitely is a skill set involved in playing well as a team. And its those skills and tactics we've practiced, the experience in the game, the organization and the teamwork that allows the really good organized groups to dominate - no matter what nerfs ZOS hands out to classes and gear and ultimates.

Can't really nerf organization and teamwork in a group PVP environment, or we'd have less complaints about premades in BGs too. Nerf what the good groups use, they'll adjust and still fight better than anyone else

VaranisArano

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun OK, what if people do think twice about joining a mindful group that has standards? "Mindless" ball groups in no way have to be nerfed because they aren't particularly strong, so why should ZOS go after them? At that point, it's just penalizing people who are actually good at the game for joining a group.

I do think the idea of multiple smaller groups has merit, but that would require quite of bit of mechanical changes. Looking for things ZOS can actually do that doesn't involve redoing the game engine or just slapping nerfs on people for playing they way they want.

@zyk 3.0? 4.2? It's been so long I don't remember which was what. If I do a search about ball groups from 2014 and even during the 3.0 patch, I will come across the same complaints that you are voicing, that because of the mechanics, "bad" players can take advantage and be much more effective than they're actual skill level. People have maintained it's always getting worse and somehow never been as pronounced as it is now because of _____________ changes that ZOS introduced. Back in the good old days, I didn't have swift jewelry, I could be snared in vamp mist, the gap closer snare was far more pronounced and the ball group rapids did not break on heals so they were relatively much more mobile than a solo player was, but somehow now it's never been worse?

You bring up that "*bad* ball groups" take large numbers to wipe because they spam heals and CC. OK, that's what all players, whether grouped or not, do. What's the issue here and what in your opinion ought to be changed?

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

@Lieblingsjunge - fair enough, the feedback ought to be objective.

I think you are right to point out that a lot of ego, one might say elitism, that gets thrown around in threads like this. A lot of the arguments reference pejoratives like "mindless zerglings" or more generally that "bad" or unskilled players are able to are somehow able to get kills and not die simply by virtue of being in a group. That players in "ball groups" are just terrible and not capable of doing these sorts of things without being carried. This is argumentation that I think ZOS is right to simply throw in the trashcan.

I play on NA and the majority of stack-on-crown groups are not something or strong enough that they are at an unfair advantage against a similar number of ungrouped players that know what they are doing. The few, and I can count them using one hand, that are noticeably stronger than a similar amount of PuGs are so because of the players in the group, as opposed the game's mechanics. I think this is the crucial point that complaints against ball group miss. People who play every night know there is a huge chasm between the best organized groups and the mediocre. Because this disparity exists, that would strongly suggest the most crucial component to the success of an organized group is not the game's mechanics, rather the skill of the players, which is how it should be.

If certain organized groups have remained very effective despite the changes made by the devs, a number of which were targeted at them, I think it's because those groups are comprised of players who have spent much of the past 4 years playing this game and know how to adapt.

@usmguy1234 - Why punish people and have different rules just for grouping up? Healers in organized groups are healing under the same conditions as those not in a group: if their healers are so much better, that's because the healers are better.

I'm not saying punish healers but rather punish heal stacking. This has nothing to do with the quality of the healers but more so with the quantity of outgoing healing. When you can completely negate a small groups burst with a single earthgore proc that's a problem that has absolutely nothing to do with skill.

Heal stacking, or just Earthgore Stacking?

I mean, I've fought groups that had half their group be healers prior to Earthgore. They took forever to kill but they didn't kill anything except with an Ultimate burst. (Personally I think thats a boring way to play, but not actually a problem because you give up offense as a group in exchange for defense.)

Earthgore stacking on the other hand makes it so much harder to kill an organized group for relatively little sacrifice on their part.

So there's a difference I think is worth considering.

umagon

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

Increase the amount of magckia/stamina drain the oil catapult/lighting ballista do, while lowering their damage and making the snare unpurgeable. And maybe making the turning and rate of fire speeds higher. Giving those siege weapons the option of more utility over damage. The fire ballista’s dot should not purgeable same with oils.

Abysswarrior45

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun OK, what if people do think twice about joining a mindful group that has standards? "Mindless" ball groups in no way have to be nerfed because they aren't particularly strong, so why should ZOS go after them? At that point, it's just penalizing people who are actually good at the game for joining a group.

I do think the idea of multiple smaller groups has merit, but that would require quite of bit of mechanical changes. Looking for things ZOS can actually do that doesn't involve redoing the game engine or just slapping nerfs on people for playing they way they want.

@zyk 3.0? 4.2? It's been so long I don't remember which was what. If I do a search about ball groups from 2014 and even during the 3.0 patch, I will come across the same complaints that you are voicing, that because of the mechanics, "bad" players can take advantage and be much more effective than they're actual skill level. People have maintained it's always getting worse and somehow never been as pronounced as it is now because of _____________ changes that ZOS introduced. Back in the good old days, I didn't have swift jewelry, I could be snared in vamp mist, the gap closer snare was far more pronounced and the ball group rapids did not break on heals so they were relatively much more mobile than a solo player was, but somehow now it's never been worse?

You bring up that "*bad* ball groups" take large numbers to wipe because they spam heals and CC. OK, that's what all players, whether grouped or not, do. What's the issue here and what in your opinion ought to be changed?

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

@Lieblingsjunge - fair enough, the feedback ought to be objective.

I think you are right to point out that a lot of ego, one might say elitism, that gets thrown around in threads like this. A lot of the arguments reference pejoratives like "mindless zerglings" or more generally that "bad" or unskilled players are able to are somehow able to get kills and not die simply by virtue of being in a group. That players in "ball groups" are just terrible and not capable of doing these sorts of things without being carried. This is argumentation that I think ZOS is right to simply throw in the trashcan.

I play on NA and the majority of stack-on-crown groups are not something or strong enough that they are at an unfair advantage against a similar number of ungrouped players that know what they are doing. The few, and I can count them using one hand, that are noticeably stronger than a similar amount of PuGs are so because of the players in the group, as opposed the game's mechanics. I think this is the crucial point that complaints against ball group miss. People who play every night know there is a huge chasm between the best organized groups and the mediocre. Because this disparity exists, that would strongly suggest the most crucial component to the success of an organized group is not the game's mechanics, rather the skill of the players, which is how it should be.

If certain organized groups have remained very effective despite the changes made by the devs, a number of which were targeted at them, I think it's because those groups are comprised of players who have spent much of the past 4 years playing this game and know how to adapt.

@usmguy1234 - Why punish people and have different rules just for grouping up? Healers in organized groups are healing under the same conditions as those not in a group: if their healers are so much better, that's because the healers are better.

Buffing snare immunity is kind of needed though with the changes to mobility and large groups being able to stay on your tail because you don't have someone to spam rapids and purge. Shuffle should be 4 secs and FM 5 or 6, and since dodge rolling was nerfed, the increase cost for using it too rapidly should not be there. The shield nerf was way too much, too. Having shields affected by pen, crit, and whatever was enough, but restricting them with health was too much and didn't target the problem itself. Sets like shadowrend, zaan, earthgore, and skoria carry ESPECIALLY Xv1ing players. Removing the damage on shadowrend and preventing it from proccing necro, spreading out earthgores heal over a larger time and increasing the cooldown, and making skoria dodgeable would fix that. A large skill gap in a game is healthy. A long time player who knows his class in-and-out, who also knows how to read players and kite while lining up burst, should be able to kill 7 or 8 who don't know what they're doing. You can't do that now with how many carry sets there are and zergs/ball groups overperform not because of skill, but because their sets do work for them.

Bergzorn

umagon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll bite.

We're going to have a meeting with the devs.

OP, tell me, specifically without pouring a carton of Morton's on me, exactly what feedback you would like me to communicate to the devs that might attain your objective that does not involve tearing apart existing game mechanics and redesigning them in 6 weeks to suit your particular play-style at the exclusion of all others. Or nerfing the crap out of something you don't like, which will adversely affect the game when ball groups aren't around.

I would also think it would be helpful not to just throw around the term "ball-group" as if everyone group out there in cyrodiil with voice coms are all the same. The majority of "ball groups" out there quite frankly aren't super strong to warrant major changes and can fail to take defended keeps Vs. an similar amount of Pugs who know what they are doing.

Good players, whether alone, in small-group, or in a larger group are going to be hard to kill. At some point, people should stop asking ZOS to nerf good players.

Increase the amount of magckia/stamina drain the oil catapult/lighting ballista do, while lowering their damage and making the snare unpurgeable. And maybe making the turning and rate of fire speeds higher. Giving those siege weapons the option of more utility over damage. The fire ballista’s dot should not purgeable same with oils.

Buffing siege even further is not the way to go. It might hurt organized groups, but it hurts everyone else more.

Sarousse

The simple fact that they added a monster set like Earthgore in game shows how they are totally clueless about ballgroups.

They will never fix them. Never. Period. They just can't.

Qbiken

If there´s one thing I´ve learned about ball-groups, its that the good ones always find a way to minimize the "damage" from nerfs. Their strength lies in good organization and coordination. You could delete rapid manouver from the game, increase cost of certain abilities depending on how many you´re grouped with, decrease the potency of "healstacking" etc, etc.... and the good ball groups would still be un-touchable.

I used to despise these ball-groups until I decided to join one to see what it was actually like. Changed my attitude completely towards that kind of playstyle, when I realised that it takes a lot of effort and practice to execute it successfully.

Moosey27

When you go into Vivec I expect ball groups. I think you should try battlegrounds for small man stuff.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

A few points here:

-If you have 4 people, don't be where the ball groups are, hit a resource, burn camps, intercept reinforcements as they trickle in. The keeps that are on the frontline are going to be swarming with pugs even if there aren't any ball groups. You can't run into Zerg central and then be surprised when you get swamped 10-to-1.

-Yes, running in ball, even high-tier organized group is less skilltesting than other types of pvp like 1v1,BGs or small group. It doesn't mean that these players are unskilled, it just means that "follow crown closely, listen to directions on discord and cast proxydet/ults on command" doesn't leave a lot of room for exceptional personal play even if you are highly capable.

-Dueling, BGs and small group all still exist. So it's totally fine that there's a gameplay style that's based around raid composition and group cohesion where individual skill takes a backseat.

usmguy1234

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

A few points here:

-If you have 4 people, don't be where the ball groups are, hit a resource, burn camps, intercept reinforcements as they trickle in. The keeps that are on the frontline are going to be swarming with pugs even if there aren't any ball groups. You can't run into Zerg central and then be surprised when you get swamped 10-to-1.

-Yes, running in ball, even high-tier organized group is less skilltesting than other types of pvp like 1v1,BGs or small group. It doesn't mean that these players are unskilled, it just means that "follow crown closely, listen to directions on discord and cast proxydet/ults on command" doesn't leave a lot of room for exceptional personal play even if you are highly capable.

-Dueling, BGs and small group all still exist. So it's totally fine that there's a gameplay style that's based around raid composition and group cohesion where individual skill takes a backseat.

So AvAvA should be about numbers, not skill. Got it.

frozywozy

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

It doesn't mean that these players are unskilled, it just means that "follow crown closely, listen to directions on discord and cast proxydet/ults on command" doesn't leave a lot of room for exceptional personal play even if you are highly capable.

VaranisArano

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

A few points here:

-If you have 4 people, don't be where the ball groups are, hit a resource, burn camps, intercept reinforcements as they trickle in. The keeps that are on the frontline are going to be swarming with pugs even if there aren't any ball groups. You can't run into Zerg central and then be surprised when you get swamped 10-to-1.

-Yes, running in ball, even high-tier organized group is less skilltesting than other types of pvp like 1v1,BGs or small group. It doesn't mean that these players are unskilled, it just means that "follow crown closely, listen to directions on discord and cast proxydet/ults on command" doesn't leave a lot of room for exceptional personal play even if you are highly capable.

-Dueling, BGs and small group all still exist. So it's totally fine that there's a gameplay style that's based around raid composition and group cohesion where individual skill takes a backseat.

So AvAvA should be about numbers, not skill. Got it.

So...a game mode originally based around groups of 8 to 24 players (as listed in the groupfinder, now 2 to 24 players) shouldn't be about numbers?

You can have your small group players who are good, who know how to play, and who will work together as a team...and most of the time you will get rolled by 12-24 players who know how to play together and work as a larger team.

What's the problem with that?

Your small man team can probably still take on 2, 3, 4 times your number of disorganized players who don't know how to play or dont know how to work together as a team. Because organization, teamwork, and skill does make a big difference in Cyrodiil! Can't tell you how many times Ive been zerg-surfing and we get broken by disciplined small groups because no one in the zerg is working together.

But by the same token, organization, teamwork, skill, and nunbers make a big difference in Cyrodiil. And that's why its the large organized raids of 12-24 players working as a team who dominate Cyrodiil on the battlefield, not the small man groups or the 1vXers.

usmguy1234

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

A few points here:

-If you have 4 people, don't be where the ball groups are, hit a resource, burn camps, intercept reinforcements as they trickle in. The keeps that are on the frontline are going to be swarming with pugs even if there aren't any ball groups. You can't run into Zerg central and then be surprised when you get swamped 10-to-1.

-Yes, running in ball, even high-tier organized group is less skilltesting than other types of pvp like 1v1,BGs or small group. It doesn't mean that these players are unskilled, it just means that "follow crown closely, listen to directions on discord and cast proxydet/ults on command" doesn't leave a lot of room for exceptional personal play even if you are highly capable.

-Dueling, BGs and small group all still exist. So it's totally fine that there's a gameplay style that's based around raid composition and group cohesion where individual skill takes a backseat.

So AvAvA should be about numbers, not skill. Got it.

So...a game mode originally based around groups of 8 to 24 players (as listed in the groupfinder, now 2 to 24 players) shouldn't be about numbers?

You can have your small group players who are good, who know how to play, and who will work together as a team...and most of the time you will get rolled by 12-24 players who know how to play together and work as a larger team.

What's the problem with that?

Your small man team can probably still take on 2, 3, 4 times your number of disorganized players who don't know how to play or dont know how to work together as a team. Because organization, teamwork, and skill does make a big difference in Cyrodiil! Can't tell you how many times Ive been zerg-surfing and we get broken by disciplined small groups because no one in the zerg is working together.

But by the same token, organization, teamwork, skill, and nunbers make a big difference in Cyrodiil. And that's why its the large organized raids of 12-24 players working as a team who dominate Cyrodiil on the battlefield, not the small man groups or the 1vXers.

8 to 24? I would love to face such favorable numbers even if I was on the 8 person side. Most of the time it's 10 to 50 or greater odds for those of us who bother to defend keeps on my platform. The only thing skillful about AvAvA is the methods people have found to bypass cyrodiil's terrible scoring system. It's literally zerging from keep to keep and steam rolling a dozen people and if an alliance is making a push for emp the opposing alliance just zergs and backdoors them. If you consider this skilled play then case closed- cyrodiil is working as intended.

Delsskia

These "ball group" threads always start off in the wrong direction and derail from there. The best thing ZOS could do is help the group players by creating a campaign for us. I would love to be able to consistently fight other guilds on a campaign that REQUIRED a group of 12 or more to even enter. Granted, there are a couple of guilds who prefer sheer numbers to actual tactics, but that's fine too. There would be a place for them too on a Guild v Guild campaign as long as population balance was maintained to some degree. And honestly, I think the guild groups could probably maintain that ourselves.

Bergzorn

Delsskia wrote: »

These "ball group" threads always start off in the wrong direction and derail from there. The best thing ZOS could do is help the group players by creating a campaign for us. I would love to be able to consistently fight other guilds on a campaign that REQUIRED a group of 12 or more to even enter. Granted, there are a couple of guilds who prefer sheer numbers to actual tactics, but that's fine too. There would be a place for them too on a Guild v Guild campaign as long as population balance was maintained to some degree. And honestly, I think the guild groups could probably maintain that ourselves.

While this is a good idea in priciple, I bet such a server would be basically empty on PC/EU apart maybe from some organized guild tournaments. The PvP population is just to low already.

zyk

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

I believe the main issue at the moment is the advantage that the 4.2 changes to mobility have given to large groups. This is because Rapid Maneuver was not changed. As you know, it is standard for medium and large groups to utilize it. It is far less common for small groups or solo players to utilize it in combat because of its cost.

This is is bad because prior to 4.2, solo and small group players had various means to match the speed and uptime of a large group utilizing Rapid Maneuver. This gives large groups a huge advantage they did not have before, creating an imbalance between large groups and other play styles.

Whatever adjustments have been made with ball groups in mind previously should have no impact on solving issues that exist today. If ball groups have gained a significant advantage, then that must be addressed.

Beyond that and Earthgore, I don't really have anything objective to add, but my general opinion is that it goes a bit deeper than those things.

frozywozy

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS is going to say, not incorrectly, that they have done things to nerf ball groups: specifically the nerfing of groups skills like barrier and rapids, the significant increase to the threat of siege, and the removal of AOE caps. Aside from giving mobility back and Earthgore set (two things I can agree on), what exactly are these nuanced mechanics that have titled the balance too far despite the afore-mentioned siege and AOE caps changes?

I believe the main issue at the moment is the advantage that the 4.2 changes to mobility have given to large groups. This is because Rapid Maneuver was not changed. As you know, it is standard for medium and large groups to utilize it. It is far less common for small groups or solo players to utilize it in combat because of its cost.

This is is bad because prior to 4.2, solo and small group players had various means to match the speed and uptime of a large group utilizing Rapid Maneuver. This gives large groups a huge advantage they did not have before, creating an imbalance between large groups and other play styles.

Whatever adjustments have been made with ball groups in mind previously should have no impact on solving issues that exist today. If ball groups have gained a significant advantage, then that must be addressed.

Beyond that and Earthgore, I don't really have anything objective to add, but my general opinion is that it goes a bit deeper than those things.

This being said, the problem remains that snares are a huge quality of life issue and over performing. ZOS decided to nerf the duration, then nerf the snares remove duration which did nothing but reduced the overall damage during 1v1 or small scale fights. When outnumbered, or during large battle, this change has no impact at all because the number of snares being thrown at you overcome the reduced duration (still 100% active) and their effect is still important.

What should have been done instead of nerfing the duration of snares and the duration of snares removal :

1) Reduce the effect of snares to a maximum of 25%
2) Reduce the amount of snares from abilities / passives / sets
3) Bring new ways to get ride of snares such as potions

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Cyrodiil is designed for large scale pvp. And ball groups are a part of this. Problem is not ball groups being so overpowered rather than people who want to try and face them by doing some kind of harashment on their backlines or time a nice negate when they pass through a narrow point find this impossible because there is so much lag going on whenever there are people stacking in certain areas of the map. To be honest there are very few ball groups that are good. Rest pretty much get their kills simply because nobody can have descent reactions cause of the lag. So imo, no matter how many nerfs or buffs or reworks you do on ball groups the result will be the same untill something meaningfull is done with server performance. Or you can keep cracking open your heads trying to fix every reoccuring bug everytime you implement a new change in cyrodiil.

dtsharples

Delsskia wrote: »

These "ball group" threads always start off in the wrong direction and derail from there. The best thing ZOS could do is help the group players by creating a campaign for us. I would love to be able to consistently fight other guilds on a campaign that REQUIRED a group of 12 or more to even enter. Granted, there are a couple of guilds who prefer sheer numbers to actual tactics, but that's fine too. There would be a place for them too on a Guild v Guild campaign as long as population balance was maintained to some degree. And honestly, I think the guild groups could probably maintain that ourselves.

This is possibly the most sensible post on this topic yet.
But, it would require the community to make some changes themselves, instead of placing the blame on ZOS.
Petition ZOS to implement a Campaign that has a minimum requirement of 12 person groups, maximum of 18 persons.
That way you would immediately see the ball-groups that remained in the 'standard' campaign for what they are.

To be honest this could have been done already solely by the community, with no involvement from ZOS at all.
All that would be needed is an agreement that a particular campaign was for groups, another campaign for smaller scale, limiting the small scale campaign to 8 person teams maximum.
But as we see time and time again, what people say they want and what they actually want are very different things. Very few of the large groups that currently steam-roll over pugs / individuals would survive against other groups of the same size.