[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - September 25

Tornaad

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Possible change to the champion point system. Turn it into something that will allow for grater customization to a class.
For example a Nightblade would have different champion point options than a Warden.
The champion points would allow for each class to tailor every skill (but class and non class skills) to have a unique flavor to its use that is customized by the use of champion points.

John_Falstaff

@Zuboko , I see a space for introducing further imbalance in that idea. I mean, of course, as always, nightblades will receive most boring and useless and least dynamic and fun CP options in the game, right? ^^

Tornaad

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Zuboko , I see a space for introducing further imbalance in that idea. I mean, of course, as always, nightblades will receive most boring and useless and least dynamic and fun CP options in the game, right? ^^

@John_Falstaff Way to be positive.
Is there a possibility for imbalance? Simple answer is yes. There will always be possibilities for that happening. That being said, it is amply evident that the game is finding its groove and thus is (despite what the neigh sayers might try to convince you of) getting better. Yes, there are changes to the game that many people do not like, but that is the nature of change. People go back to areas that flood out every few years, because they don't like change more than they don't like having their homes flooded out.

If we look for what might go wrong we will create what we are looking for.

Here is what I see, imagine having the possibility to have your abilities with the bow harmonize with your Nightblade abilities. Let me make one up right now.
...
Imagine Snipe working with Mark Target and Teleport Strike. First you mark the target and then you perform a Teleport Strike through your Snipe taking you to the opposite side of your foe. Yes I know that sounds powerful. I just barely through of it.
…
Here is another possibility I thought of as I was writing up the previous.
Add some cosmetic effects with the Champion Point customizations
Example, as you fear your opponent and then do more and more damage to them you gain a demonic appearance to go along with the fear and a boost to its effects at the same time.

The possibilities are endless, and if they build out a separate champion point system for each class that affects every skill in the game then suddenly it will be a lot harder to have builds feel the same. That could also, if done properly, create a situation where depending on how you apply your champion points will determine what equipment you get.

For example
If part of your customization requires a certain armor, or weapon trait to be equipped then that will change your build. Or if the customization required a specific set and even a specific number of pieces of that set, say 3 instead of 5 or 7 instead of 5, then that again would change your build.

It is also possible that they could add a customization option that might require you to go without certain pieces of equipment. Say a spirit bow of sorts, that makes it so you have to not equip a bow but generate one instead. These are all possibilities they could throw in with the kind of change I am talking about with the change I am suggesting.

The possibilities are virtually endless for what they could add for customization. No, this would not likely stop the power creep, but it would make it so that the it would only add more diversity to the game if it did continue which is a trade off I think a lot of people could happily live with.

John_Falstaff

@Zuboko , I'm sorry; I was being slightly sarcastic with my remark about NB abilities. I main a stamina DK, that explains why it's very difficult for me to be positive as of late. ^^

I definitely see your point, and I wholeheartedly would welcome it - if only the company that's doing it had a good track record of managing combat balance well. There are endless ways of making each class unique and versatile and more fun to play. But as things stand now, I simply fear that it would break little still unbroken and even firmer shoehorn classes into their niches (or lack thereof). The possibilities are endless, but that also means that it'll be all the more difficult for ZOS to see all those special corner cases and combinations that will push certain classes and specs far ahead - and as a result, we'll see all the more nerf bombardments, more feverish meta swings, more tears with each patch. The combat team already struggles with balance too hard as it is, I'm simply not sure that added complexity is what game needs at this point. If you proposed it at the moment when game was balanced and there wasn't any glaring issues? I'd have said - great idea, should introduce it right this moment.

joaaocaampos

.

Tornaad

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Zuboko , I'm sorry; I was being slightly sarcastic with my remark about NB abilities. I main a stamina DK, that explains why it's very difficult for me to be positive as of late. ^^

I definitely see your point, and I wholeheartedly would welcome it - if only the company that's doing it had a good track record of managing combat balance well. There are endless ways of making each class unique and versatile and more fun to play. But as things stand now, I simply fear that it would break little still unbroken and even firmer shoehorn classes into their niches (or lack thereof). The possibilities are endless, but that also means that it'll be all the more difficult for ZOS to see all those special corner cases and combinations that will push certain classes and specs far ahead - and as a result, we'll see all the more nerf bombardments, more feverish meta swings, more tears with each patch. The combat team already struggles with balance too hard as it is, I'm simply not sure that added complexity is what game needs at this point. If you proposed it at the moment when game was balanced and there wasn't any glaring issues? I'd have said - great idea, should introduce it right this moment.

@John_Falstaff Fair enough, and sorry about being a little overzealous with my positive nature.
And on the note of being overzealous, to me the idea of it being difficult only makes it more appealing and worthwhile.

Minno

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

This nerfs mag builds that need it while stamina builds won't see much of a nerf.

Better change is to cap your speed via battlespirit with no immunity granted for snares.

But are we ready to go back to a snare meta game? I am not; best to leave swift as it is and make the devs fix the lag/hitboxes some more.

What mage builds "need" it? Many already have gap closers, ranged abilities, natural snares, and other speed modifiers/teleports.

Another two ideas on swift:

1. Increase speed on heavy attacks and reduce/remove the run speed
2. A change to mechanics in general, but allow moving while in root similar to the hand change, common tactic is to root and circle targets quickly where channel and cones can't track.

Gap Closers, while great while moving with snares, leaves you open to take damage during it.

Ranged abilities does not replace escape/movement. For example, rangplar doesn't have an escape mechanic like sorc or NB so once you face off against those builds you quickly yearn to reposition like they can.

Zuboko wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Possible change to the champion point system. Turn it into something that will allow for grater customization to a class.
For example a Nightblade would have different champion point options than a Warden.
The champion points would allow for each class to tailor every skill (but class and non class skills) to have a unique flavor to its use that is customized by the use of champion points.

I agree. Would bring really fun ways to balance classes. Like templar could get something like "x% increase effectiveness of purge" or passives after healing a target while NB could get things that let them dodge or burst in interesting ways.

Tornaad

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

This nerfs mag builds that need it while stamina builds won't see much of a nerf.

Better change is to cap your speed via battlespirit with no immunity granted for snares.

But are we ready to go back to a snare meta game? I am not; best to leave swift as it is and make the devs fix the lag/hitboxes some more.

What mage builds "need" it? Many already have gap closers, ranged abilities, natural snares, and other speed modifiers/teleports.

Another two ideas on swift:

1. Increase speed on heavy attacks and reduce/remove the run speed
2. A change to mechanics in general, but allow moving while in root similar to the hand change, common tactic is to root and circle targets quickly where channel and cones can't track.

Gap Closers, while great while moving with snares, leaves you open to take damage during it.

Ranged abilities does not replace escape/movement. For example, rangplar doesn't have an escape mechanic like sorc or NB so once you face off against those builds you quickly yearn to reposition like they can.

Zuboko wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Possible change to the champion point system. Turn it into something that will allow for grater customization to a class.
For example a Nightblade would have different champion point options than a Warden.
The champion points would allow for each class to tailor every skill (but class and non class skills) to have a unique flavor to its use that is customized by the use of champion points.

I agree. Would bring really fun ways to balance classes. Like templar could get something like "x% increase effectiveness of purge" or passives after healing a target while NB could get things that let them dodge or burst in interesting ways.

@Minno They could even add separate champion point sections that focus exclusively on PVP and PVE which would make it easier to balance the two.

Minno

Zuboko wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

This nerfs mag builds that need it while stamina builds won't see much of a nerf.

Better change is to cap your speed via battlespirit with no immunity granted for snares.

But are we ready to go back to a snare meta game? I am not; best to leave swift as it is and make the devs fix the lag/hitboxes some more.

What mage builds "need" it? Many already have gap closers, ranged abilities, natural snares, and other speed modifiers/teleports.

Another two ideas on swift:

1. Increase speed on heavy attacks and reduce/remove the run speed
2. A change to mechanics in general, but allow moving while in root similar to the hand change, common tactic is to root and circle targets quickly where channel and cones can't track.

Gap Closers, while great while moving with snares, leaves you open to take damage during it.

Ranged abilities does not replace escape/movement. For example, rangplar doesn't have an escape mechanic like sorc or NB so once you face off against those builds you quickly yearn to reposition like they can.

Zuboko wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Possible change to the champion point system. Turn it into something that will allow for grater customization to a class.
For example a Nightblade would have different champion point options than a Warden.
The champion points would allow for each class to tailor every skill (but class and non class skills) to have a unique flavor to its use that is customized by the use of champion points.

I agree. Would bring really fun ways to balance classes. Like templar could get something like "x% increase effectiveness of purge" or passives after healing a target while NB could get things that let them dodge or burst in interesting ways.

@Minno They could even add separate champion point sections that focus exclusively on PVP and PVE which would make it easier to balance the two.

Agreed!

lokulin

ezio45 wrote: »

@Masel92

Im not really worried about the shield changes in pvp, its manageable. Pve on the other hand im very concerned with. I dont see alot of ways we can compensate for this in end game pve. Im especially worried about vma were I dont have a healer. Some of those attacks im routinely getting hit for 8k per attack and my shields going to be around 6k.

Also Boundless storm nerf kinda bothers me. Its not the stam morph and stamina builds were the ones benefiting form the high player movement speed not the mag builds. magsorc mobility has been raise as a concern even by the reps and this hurts that for those of us who were willing to slot boundless.

I'm really worried about vMA as well. I am not an elite tier player and have been slowly working on getting flawless. Am down to under an hour, 500K+ score and only one death but when I logged in to the PTS I almost felt like I was a new player again.

It was horrible. I was burning magicka a lot faster than before to reapply shields or heal myself meaning my damage output was almost negligible. Some will say this is a learn to play issue but to be honest I've put over a hundred hours in to my main, have had to respec multiple times and learn new builds. I'd rather spend time suing my current build to learn new dungeons and trials rather than have to go back and re-learn a class just to clear content that I have already done.

I understand that vMA is not meant to be easy but going by the leaderboard scores on PC NA and the people who are regularly getting good scores there isn't a sizable number of players that can actually hit good scores let alone get flawless.

Of course people who are good are often in good guilds where a lot of players have flawless or high scores so they tend to think everyone has it. Some time spent in pugs or running around open world with the average player can really be handy to reset expectations of difficulty.

Krymzonbladez

Well kinda ghetto fabulous since Magplars use the now crappy light armor shield, so using our class shield is now almost as good as using the LA shield...almost...

Krymzonbladez

But really, the LA annulment nerf hurts all La users, making them ALL get less sustain for having to trade pieces you need for sustain and dps for resistances and more hp and so forth. Still think these combat designers are idiots.

Raraaku

Scaling 1H&Shield to health would be a much appreciated QoL change for tank players, scaling would probably need to be roughly 50% to how magicka/stamina scales damage for DPS players. Kind of a drag having to completely swap gear sets and investing skill points to either DW/2H and Bow just to simply complete overland/solo content.

Stabby_Longshot

Everyone ignored the fact they nerfed overload light attack by 50% with sorc and was completely blind sided with dark deal nerf and sorc shield. It was and is a one trick pony that you have to run a certain set up to get anything out of it. A snipe can hit as hard and now I'd have to say harder and trust me i'm not asking you to nerf that also. Just a comparison. No doubt this will get flamed down by someone that cant dodge roll block or reflect.

Stabby_Longshot

Some good buffs and adjusts to Templar though.

Mojomonkeyman

Thanks ZOS for crushing a struggling PvP class (magicka warden) even further.

With Arctic Blast you have robbed us off one enabling (key) skill, replaced it with a terrible (slow) stun and called it a day. My Arctic Blast was in general averaging for about 15-20% of my overall self-healing in BGs according to combat metrics before murkmire, now down to 4-6% because it needs a target.

Same goes for Bird of Prey, a key skill for 18 months - now just not worth its cost anymore.

And yet, somehow this patch was supposed to help us out and show some love? Thanks to making balance a popularity contest, sorcs managed to turn heavy nerfs into buffs (from what I've seen in Cyro and BGs today) due to having a big lobby - while wardens get a slap in the face during the patch that was supposed to give us finally some attention.

I can't describe how disappointed I am in the Developer team. No insights, no commitment, no passion - just lazy bandaids with as little effort as humanly possible.

VaxtinTheWolf

About Major Expedition;

I am unsure why Nightblade's Path of Darkness was not increased to 4 seconds after leaving the path, instead of the current value of 2 seconds, to match the same duration that they have changed many other sources to be at.

Ranger209

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

About Major Expedition;

I am unsure why Nightblade's Path of Darkness was not increased to 4 seconds after leaving the path, instead of the current value of 2 seconds, to match the same duration that they have changed many other sources to be at.

making it 4 seconds whether you are on the path or off is more in line with everything else

m12d12_ESO

There was alot to this I can agree with. But a fair amount I didn't. Im not certain while Templars were hit so hard this patch but it made playing one harder and much less enjoyable. Biting Jabs and it morph didnt need a cool down and certainly 1.1 sec is rough when its your main weapon. Magicka doesn't play the same way as a stamina build for the most part. A magplar is very reliant on their base skills. On small mobs the cool down was noticeable but not critical. However on alonger drawn out fight it was brutal to try to stay on my magicka templars base skill of biting jabs. Radiant does less damage than a destro staff, at about 1517k per button press and then roughly 5k on critical. Again a staff does more. Templars are becoming broken again. Im not sure why the constant balancing on the magicka characters but as a player since 2013. It is getting frustrating.

kaithuzar

Perhaps this would help, cast your vote!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442732/a-hidden-communitys-qol-request#latest

VaxtinTheWolf

I'm not making a new thread for this tiny suggestion, but where is Minor/Major Snare at this point?


Minor/Major Hindrance: Reduce target speed by 10/30% for (x) amount of time.

Allow some specific skill effects to have a unique snare amount, like those found on some Ultimates or Class Passives, but every other active ability that also snares could use the Minor/Major system.

TrinityBreaker

When is the next clsss reps meeting?

Suddwrath

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

When is the next clsss reps meeting?

I would like to know this as well. I'm curious to see what sort of feedback the class reps have given to ZOS (and vice versa) after all of this nerfmire shenanigans lol.

BxBourne

No talk of MAG DK execute ability??? It wasn't mentioned in the notes. It's the #1 issue with MAG DK... Imo.

jeskah

Any new meetings maybe notes? I understand, you do not really like the uproar following them, however, this slow withering is... well, not good either.

ochsinator

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Yesterday afternoon, we met with our Class Reps to discuss the changes currently on the PTS. But first, before we get to the meeting notes - we know everyone feels strongly about the changes made to Annulment and Conjured Ward in last week’s PTS patch, and we’ve been reading everyone’s feedback both in-game and across various forums and chats. As we mentioned during our meeting with the Class Reps yesterday, we are open to making adjustments as long as we are still meeting our original goals.

We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health. Our goal with the damage shield changes has been to address the fact that you can create builds that maximize damage while ignoring defense. We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. By limiting damage shield strength on max health, it makes the health stat much more attractive than it was previously for damage shield users.

So with that, below are the meeting notes compiled by the Reps themselves (mainly @JoyDivsion - thank you!).

---

Class Rep Meeting with ZOS for Update 20

We approached this meeting differently. Previously we went for more of a “here’s a list of all the pain points” approach, which meant that while the Devs heard a lot of concerns, there was too little time for interaction as to why those were concerns. This meeting we wanted to actually discuss and communicate with the Devs why they made certain controversial changes. This meant we got a lot more insight into their thinking and, importantly, they got more on why we (and thus the community) felt some changes would not improve the game. We felt the drawback to this approach could be minimized by emailing ZOS the list of class/role specific issue we had. Basically, this means there is stuff we emailed and otherwise communicated to ZOS that isn’t in this document.

Sorcerer Shields:
We spent at least 30 minutes discussing shields. The gist of ZOS’s explanation to us what that they wanted to even the survivability between Stamina and Magicka (the specific example that a Magicka build could spam shields without paying attention to a Boss was used), ZOS wanted sorcerers to make more difficult decision regarding their class defense rather than just stack Magicka and have large shields, and ZOS feels that shields are quite a potent defense mechanic in that they are both excellent reactive and can be used proactively (something Breath of Life cannot do).

Every rep that spoke remarked that sorcerers already have to make difficult decisions with builds because sustain is an issue and lack of bar space, which means they already have trouble securing legit kills in PvP (i.e. not kill stealing by spamming mage’s wrath). We also noted that making shields so they can be critically hit was already a significant nerf that deserved testing on its own, and that the one-second cast-time will get sorcerers killed in a competitive PvP environment. We also said that ZOS has hit sorcerer offensive capability pretty hard the past year, which makes the sort of build diversity they want harder. They acknowledged this and did more than insinuate that sorcerer offense is going to be reformed in the future (at one point, a dev asked out loud if they could be specific. They could not). We told them without these offensive changes it was asking too much to hit the sorcerers with a nerf to their defense first and make them wait for this vague promise in the future. We also mentioned, numerous times, that the mechanic of cast-times is something that is disliked by many people because it breaks the flow of the fluid and ast paced combat that defines ESO. We also went through a bunch of other various reasons that folks on the forums and discords brought up. In short, we pressed and that’s why it lasted over 30 minutes.

With the changes to resistances, having instant cast damage shields is even going to make them even stronger in PvE. We acknowledged this as a potential issue and agreed some adjustment was going to be needed. ZOS seems to be open to refinements and reforms that match their desired goals. The Devs have indicated they are well aware of the feedback, they saw the memes, they know this is a huge change. Some ideas were bounced around. Someone (I forget who) brought up the possibility of lowering the shields to a desired size for PVE and adjusting Battlespirit so they aren’t useless in PvP. My impression is that ZOS is agreeable to making a different sort of adjustment, but they still want to keep their goals of Stamina Vs. Magicka survivability, want some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves, they don’t want a Magicka build spamming shields while ignoring PvE mechanics. The Devs ended our conversation with the thought whether or not a morph choice would be well received, that is if one morph had a one-second cast time and you got a large shield and another morph which removed the cast-time, but you’d get a smaller shield (the strengths were not mentioned specifically).

There’s only so much I can type and not every detail from our conversation is printed above. I came way from this conversation with the impression that the Devs are open. They know it’s a big change, they know there are potentially better ways to achieve their goals.

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Dragonknights
Stamina DKs still want some form of identity. Poison changes only affected their cheap skills. We made it crystal clear that players don’t like Noxious Breath and wouldn’t like it even if it miraculously always hit. We got the impression the Devs are aware stam DKs want some sort of damage skill and could be nudged further in that direction if it was something more than asking for a generic “stamwhip!”

Magicka DKs. ZOS told us according to the target dummy parse, the sustain loss from Flame Lash is made up for the higher damage from Eruption and heavy attacking. We acknowledged that may be correct, however PVP gameplay is a dynamic beast, where Eruption is not easily used for an offensive DK and heavy staff attacks are easily dodge or blocked. The reps were clear in communicating that the changes have made PvP sustain a pain point. The Devs accepted this logic.

Reps also talked about how the core issues revolving MagDK is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that MagDKs can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in a sort of limbo when it comes to open world PvP.

Player Speed
ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue.

Sorcerers:
Much of their feedback was included in the discussion with shields. Sustain isn’t good, mobility took a hit, offense was nerfed, etc.

The week 2 changes to Dark Deal were needed and the skill is something that sorcerers can work with now.

We talked about sorcerer ultimates. The loss of a third bar from Overload has crowded sorcerers’ bars and ZOS is asking players to completely change how the class is played. ZOS indicated that they were thinking of changing one of the Ultimates into a Stamina morph since they were the only class that didn’t have one and the reps simultaneously said “Air Atronach”.

Overall we felt that from a Stamina sorcerer perspective, update 20 was more about what was being taken away, rather than was being added to make the class more interesting to play. The same, of course, is true from a Magicka perspective.

Wardens:
We raised concerns that even if a Warden’s DPS parse was now within acceptable standards (we feel this is debatable as some testing indicate a DPS loss), how this came about could have been done differently. The Netch and Shalk changes were welcome for sustain, but it was puzzling why Swarm, a skill many Wardens think is dull and dislike the cast twice and get higher damage mechanic, got such a high cost increase. ZOS stated magicka Warden sustain was better than Stamina after all of the buffs (Betty Netch restore, Shalk cost reduction) which is why they focused on the Swarm ability, which was extremely cheap and not used by stam Warden.

The Bird of Prey change was nice in that a player could gain the benefit with less buff spamming, but the option to actually cast the skill to also buff damage on the other bar is an unfortunate loss.

The return of a stun was welcome, though the Artic Blast change was the one instance where there was disagreement between the reps. One of the reps strongly felt that the stun should have been put on the other morph as the damage on Artic Blast was an ability that enabled the very sort of build diversity ZOS seeks. This was answered that difficult choices had to be made and that it was not possible to please everyone. The Rep still felt if people had to be displeased, it should have been the other morph.

Nightblades:
There was a feeling the patch was more about what was being taken away rather than what was gained. Nightblades DPS is still good, but tank and healing NBs were particularly affected by the changes. More of this will be put into the respective sections

It was also mentioned that the cumulative changes to Nightblades, in particular the loss of healing, has turned the class into more of a “brawler” that relies on non-Nightblade stuff like gear that defines their builds.

We were running low on time, so specific Nightblade feedback will be sent to the Developer team.

Pets:
No critical resistance and the shield change mechanic means they are squishier. ZOS indicated to us they are willing to look at specific problematic PvE fights in which pets do more harm than good via triggering boss mechanics, dying, etc. The reps already have a thorough list and will send it to the Devs.

Soldier of Anguish set:
We voiced our displeasure over the abusive potential of this set. The debuff cannot stack, but it can be refreshed, which the reps said was still problematic. The reps also indicated that this set should not be compared to a damage oriented proc set such as Viper since damage is affected by battle-spirit and other resistances whereas this set is not. ZOS indicated they are willing to adjust the parameters of the set, specifically whether the cooldown should be lengthened and the value of how much debuffed healing. The reps indicated that perhaps it was better to redesign the set, in light that similar one-target proc sets (such as Sloads) have often caused problems and had to be eventually be nerfed. The idea that it would debuff a group of players (obviously for a lower amounts) was one suggestion.

Tanks:
DKs are still the top, the shield change made them even more desirable.

Templar tanking is much improved, although they are still lacking in the control department.

Nightblade tanking was centered on Tavas and that is going away. In general, it’s probably a good thing not to have classes depend on a single set of gear, but update 20 is not offering an attractive alternative for nightblades. ZOS indicated they are aware NB tanking sustain is dependent on light attacking (not easy) and avoiding certain hits (now not possible). There was some back and forth as to exactly what sort of fights and scenario NBs fall short on, however we were running out of time. We will follow up with an email to get everyone on the same page.

More tanking feedback was sent to ZOS in lieu of time constraints

Healers
Healers did not believe that shield changes would make them more desirable. What healers want most of all is too have impactful skills that make a tangible difference to other players such that groups would genuinely feel they were better off to have the healer than another DPS. This led into another discussion about how we think the CP system and power creep has made it easier for groups to avoid mechanics and just DPS burn stuff without the need for healers.

Nightblade and sorcerer healers have concerns with Update 20. Twilight Matriarch will have less shielding and loss of Overload bar and additional skills means sorcerers have to make adjustments and do so without getting any buffs to compensate. Nightblade healers won’t be able to be as offensive or aggressive in their healing, which again compels change via nerfs rather than buffs.

We also mentioned that it would be a good idea if healers had access to impactful skills that could not be replicated via gear or overlapping buffs from DPS. The Siphon Spirit skill, to take one example, is terrible (cast time, has a cooldown, and offers redundant buffs more efficiently acquired elsewhere). This used to be an interesting and dynamic skill that was a stable of healers back in the day.

Tasear has an extensive list of more specific feedback that was passed to ZOS.

Templars
Considering time constraints, it was agreed that it would be better if Joy Division provided the critical feedback in a comprehensive written email rather than rush through stuff. Note from Joy: “Jabs damage, evasion mitigating templar spammable, minor vitality loss, minor protection uptime, Crescent Sweep mechanics are the main points. Other minor ones will be included as well.”

Other Mechanics
Duel Wield Enchantments are much more powerful than other weapons as both are full strength (so is infused) and will have more uptime. ZOS indicated they are aware of this.

ZOS asked us about our feelings about heavy attacks, whether or not we felt they were worthwhile. We indicated the Stamina model was smoother mostly because they were faster, easier to connect in PVP (or would be if players weren’t zooming around) for the sustain, and fit the pace of the game better. In contrast, Ice and Inferno attacks feel slow, not very impactful, and were too easy to deny resources in PvP via dodge or tapping block. Lightning staff as a channel felt ok because the user was always doing something (although single target damage is not great).

The class reps indicated that speeding heavy attacks them up would be desirable, but players are mostly looking for impact and to feel like they accomplished something worthwhile by taking the time to do a heavy attack rather than using a skill. Resources are ok, but it feels more of a chore and something that had to be done just to resume a DPS rotation rather than the heavy attack itself being impactful.

Forward Momentum, Shuffle, and Evasion. We were under a time crunch and did not discuss these related mechanics nearly enough. Forward Momentum enabling heavy armor builds to be more maneuverable than medium armor was identified, and ZOS indicated this was undesirable. Forward Momentum was also identified as one of the mechanics that enabled players to be too fast. It would not surprise me if this skill was adjusted. Evasion is a topic that deserved more discussion. We indicated it was difficult to judge the impact it would have in PvP and PvE setting as only so much can be done on the PTS. We did express our concerns that heavy armor, mostly in conjunction with non-heavy armor things (specific sets like Fury, Evasion, Forward Momentum, mostly Stamina stuff), will still make for stronger PvP builds than medium.

Healing Ward:
The reps believed that the initial small heal played a critical role in PVP (e.g. getting out of execute range) and would upset the already precarious power balance between Magicka Vs. Stamina in PVP. Magicka is already going to get hit with whatever change comes about with Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka, and this is going to exacerbate matters such that people may just roll a heavy armor Stamina warden.

Blackrose Weapons and other arena weapons: Did not have time to discuss. We will email our feedback about them as well as the proposal that all the arena weapon should receive a 1-piece bonus.

Wrapping Up:
We ended on DPS parses and we wish we had more than 3 minutes to continue this conversation as it finally got to the heart of many “pain points” the community has. In terms of damage output, at least when it comes to a target dummy parse, we did acknowledge the classes are relatively close to each other (especially Stamina). So from the perspective of a class not being allowed to a trial raid, that is the fault of an uniformed raid lead, rather than the damage capability of a class.

However, we felt how players were getting that DPS and how these goals were achieved could be done better. Specifically, we felt there’s a lot of heavy attacking, certain classes have to spell symmetry while other can infinitely sustain a light-attack rotation, certain skills got nerfed (e.g. DK Flame Lash), and other things that are either not fun or have negative effects in other aspects of the game.

In short, it is fair to say DPS parses are better and more in-line, but the gameplay to get the DPS is not as enjoyable. This statement made an impression on the Devs (one made a point to repeat it).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Yesterday afternoon, we met with our Class Reps to discuss the changes currently on the PTS. But first, before we get to the meeting notes - we know everyone feels strongly about the changes made to Annulment and Conjured Ward in last week’s PTS patch, and we’ve been reading everyone’s feedback both in-game and across various forums and chats. As we mentioned during our meeting with the Class Reps yesterday, we are open to making adjustments as long as we are still meeting our original goals.

We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health. Our goal with the damage shield changes has been to address the fact that you can create builds that maximize damage while ignoring defense. We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. By limiting damage shield strength on max health, it makes the health stat much more attractive than it was previously for damage shield users.

So with that, below are the meeting notes compiled by the Reps themselves (mainly @JoyDivsion - thank you!).

---

Class Rep Meeting with ZOS for Update 20

We approached this meeting differently. Previously we went for more of a “here’s a list of all the pain points” approach, which meant that while the Devs heard a lot of concerns, there was too little time for interaction as to why those were concerns. This meeting we wanted to actually discuss and communicate with the Devs why they made certain controversial changes. This meant we got a lot more insight into their thinking and, importantly, they got more on why we (and thus the community) felt some changes would not improve the game. We felt the drawback to this approach could be minimized by emailing ZOS the list of class/role specific issue we had. Basically, this means there is stuff we emailed and otherwise communicated to ZOS that isn’t in this document.

Sorcerer Shields:
We spent at least 30 minutes discussing shields. The gist of ZOS’s explanation to us what that they wanted to even the survivability between Stamina and Magicka (the specific example that a Magicka build could spam shields without paying attention to a Boss was used), ZOS wanted sorcerers to make more difficult decision regarding their class defense rather than just stack Magicka and have large shields, and ZOS feels that shields are quite a potent defense mechanic in that they are both excellent reactive and can be used proactively (something Breath of Life cannot do).

Every rep that spoke remarked that sorcerers already have to make difficult decisions with builds because sustain is an issue and lack of bar space, which means they already have trouble securing legit kills in PvP (i.e. not kill stealing by spamming mage’s wrath). We also noted that making shields so they can be critically hit was already a significant nerf that deserved testing on its own, and that the one-second cast-time will get sorcerers killed in a competitive PvP environment. We also said that ZOS has hit sorcerer offensive capability pretty hard the past year, which makes the sort of build diversity they want harder. They acknowledged this and did more than insinuate that sorcerer offense is going to be reformed in the future (at one point, a dev asked out loud if they could be specific. They could not). We told them without these offensive changes it was asking too much to hit the sorcerers with a nerf to their defense first and make them wait for this vague promise in the future. We also mentioned, numerous times, that the mechanic of cast-times is something that is disliked by many people because it breaks the flow of the fluid and ast paced combat that defines ESO. We also went through a bunch of other various reasons that folks on the forums and discords brought up. In short, we pressed and that’s why it lasted over 30 minutes.

With the changes to resistances, having instant cast damage shields is even going to make them even stronger in PvE. We acknowledged this as a potential issue and agreed some adjustment was going to be needed. ZOS seems to be open to refinements and reforms that match their desired goals. The Devs have indicated they are well aware of the feedback, they saw the memes, they know this is a huge change. Some ideas were bounced around. Someone (I forget who) brought up the possibility of lowering the shields to a desired size for PVE and adjusting Battlespirit so they aren’t useless in PvP. My impression is that ZOS is agreeable to making a different sort of adjustment, but they still want to keep their goals of Stamina Vs. Magicka survivability, want some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves, they don’t want a Magicka build spamming shields while ignoring PvE mechanics. The Devs ended our conversation with the thought whether or not a morph choice would be well received, that is if one morph had a one-second cast time and you got a large shield and another morph which removed the cast-time, but you’d get a smaller shield (the strengths were not mentioned specifically).

There’s only so much I can type and not every detail from our conversation is printed above. I came way from this conversation with the impression that the Devs are open. They know it’s a big change, they know there are potentially better ways to achieve their goals.

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Dragonknights
Stamina DKs still want some form of identity. Poison changes only affected their cheap skills. We made it crystal clear that players don’t like Noxious Breath and wouldn’t like it even if it miraculously always hit. We got the impression the Devs are aware stam DKs want some sort of damage skill and could be nudged further in that direction if it was something more than asking for a generic “stamwhip!”

Magicka DKs. ZOS told us according to the target dummy parse, the sustain loss from Flame Lash is made up for the higher damage from Eruption and heavy attacking. We acknowledged that may be correct, however PVP gameplay is a dynamic beast, where Eruption is not easily used for an offensive DK and heavy staff attacks are easily dodge or blocked. The reps were clear in communicating that the changes have made PvP sustain a pain point. The Devs accepted this logic.

Reps also talked about how the core issues revolving MagDK is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that MagDKs can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in a sort of limbo when it comes to open world PvP.

Player Speed
ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue.

Sorcerers:
Much of their feedback was included in the discussion with shields. Sustain isn’t good, mobility took a hit, offense was nerfed, etc.

The week 2 changes to Dark Deal were needed and the skill is something that sorcerers can work with now.

We talked about sorcerer ultimates. The loss of a third bar from Overload has crowded sorcerers’ bars and ZOS is asking players to completely change how the class is played. ZOS indicated that they were thinking of changing one of the Ultimates into a Stamina morph since they were the only class that didn’t have one and the reps simultaneously said “Air Atronach”.

Overall we felt that from a Stamina sorcerer perspective, update 20 was more about what was being taken away, rather than was being added to make the class more interesting to play. The same, of course, is true from a Magicka perspective.

Wardens:
We raised concerns that even if a Warden’s DPS parse was now within acceptable standards (we feel this is debatable as some testing indicate a DPS loss), how this came about could have been done differently. The Netch and Shalk changes were welcome for sustain, but it was puzzling why Swarm, a skill many Wardens think is dull and dislike the cast twice and get higher damage mechanic, got such a high cost increase. ZOS stated magicka Warden sustain was better than Stamina after all of the buffs (Betty Netch restore, Shalk cost reduction) which is why they focused on the Swarm ability, which was extremely cheap and not used by stam Warden.

The Bird of Prey change was nice in that a player could gain the benefit with less buff spamming, but the option to actually cast the skill to also buff damage on the other bar is an unfortunate loss.

The return of a stun was welcome, though the Artic Blast change was the one instance where there was disagreement between the reps. One of the reps strongly felt that the stun should have been put on the other morph as the damage on Artic Blast was an ability that enabled the very sort of build diversity ZOS seeks. This was answered that difficult choices had to be made and that it was not possible to please everyone. The Rep still felt if people had to be displeased, it should have been the other morph.

Nightblades:
There was a feeling the patch was more about what was being taken away rather than what was gained. Nightblades DPS is still good, but tank and healing NBs were particularly affected by the changes. More of this will be put into the respective sections

It was also mentioned that the cumulative changes to Nightblades, in particular the loss of healing, has turned the class into more of a “brawler” that relies on non-Nightblade stuff like gear that defines their builds.

We were running low on time, so specific Nightblade feedback will be sent to the Developer team.

Pets:
No critical resistance and the shield change mechanic means they are squishier. ZOS indicated to us they are willing to look at specific problematic PvE fights in which pets do more harm than good via triggering boss mechanics, dying, etc. The reps already have a thorough list and will send it to the Devs.

Soldier of Anguish set:
We voiced our displeasure over the abusive potential of this set. The debuff cannot stack, but it can be refreshed, which the reps said was still problematic. The reps also indicated that this set should not be compared to a damage oriented proc set such as Viper since damage is affected by battle-spirit and other resistances whereas this set is not. ZOS indicated they are willing to adjust the parameters of the set, specifically whether the cooldown should be lengthened and the value of how much debuffed healing. The reps indicated that perhaps it was better to redesign the set, in light that similar one-target proc sets (such as Sloads) have often caused problems and had to be eventually be nerfed. The idea that it would debuff a group of players (obviously for a lower amounts) was one suggestion.

Tanks:
DKs are still the top, the shield change made them even more desirable.

Templar tanking is much improved, although they are still lacking in the control department.

Nightblade tanking was centered on Tavas and that is going away. In general, it’s probably a good thing not to have classes depend on a single set of gear, but update 20 is not offering an attractive alternative for nightblades. ZOS indicated they are aware NB tanking sustain is dependent on light attacking (not easy) and avoiding certain hits (now not possible). There was some back and forth as to exactly what sort of fights and scenario NBs fall short on, however we were running out of time. We will follow up with an email to get everyone on the same page.

More tanking feedback was sent to ZOS in lieu of time constraints

Healers
Healers did not believe that shield changes would make them more desirable. What healers want most of all is too have impactful skills that make a tangible difference to other players such that groups would genuinely feel they were better off to have the healer than another DPS. This led into another discussion about how we think the CP system and power creep has made it easier for groups to avoid mechanics and just DPS burn stuff without the need for healers.

Nightblade and sorcerer healers have concerns with Update 20. Twilight Matriarch will have less shielding and loss of Overload bar and additional skills means sorcerers have to make adjustments and do so without getting any buffs to compensate. Nightblade healers won’t be able to be as offensive or aggressive in their healing, which again compels change via nerfs rather than buffs.

We also mentioned that it would be a good idea if healers had access to impactful skills that could not be replicated via gear or overlapping buffs from DPS. The Siphon Spirit skill, to take one example, is terrible (cast time, has a cooldown, and offers redundant buffs more efficiently acquired elsewhere). This used to be an interesting and dynamic skill that was a stable of healers back in the day.

Tasear has an extensive list of more specific feedback that was passed to ZOS.

Templars
Considering time constraints, it was agreed that it would be better if Joy Division provided the critical feedback in a comprehensive written email rather than rush through stuff. Note from Joy: “Jabs damage, evasion mitigating templar spammable, minor vitality loss, minor protection uptime, Crescent Sweep mechanics are the main points. Other minor ones will be included as well.”

Other Mechanics
Duel Wield Enchantments are much more powerful than other weapons as both are full strength (so is infused) and will have more uptime. ZOS indicated they are aware of this.

ZOS asked us about our feelings about heavy attacks, whether or not we felt they were worthwhile. We indicated the Stamina model was smoother mostly because they were faster, easier to connect in PVP (or would be if players weren’t zooming around) for the sustain, and fit the pace of the game better. In contrast, Ice and Inferno attacks feel slow, not very impactful, and were too easy to deny resources in PvP via dodge or tapping block. Lightning staff as a channel felt ok because the user was always doing something (although single target damage is not great).

The class reps indicated that speeding heavy attacks them up would be desirable, but players are mostly looking for impact and to feel like they accomplished something worthwhile by taking the time to do a heavy attack rather than using a skill. Resources are ok, but it feels more of a chore and something that had to be done just to resume a DPS rotation rather than the heavy attack itself being impactful.

Forward Momentum, Shuffle, and Evasion. We were under a time crunch and did not discuss these related mechanics nearly enough. Forward Momentum enabling heavy armor builds to be more maneuverable than medium armor was identified, and ZOS indicated this was undesirable. Forward Momentum was also identified as one of the mechanics that enabled players to be too fast. It would not surprise me if this skill was adjusted. Evasion is a topic that deserved more discussion. We indicated it was difficult to judge the impact it would have in PvP and PvE setting as only so much can be done on the PTS. We did express our concerns that heavy armor, mostly in conjunction with non-heavy armor things (specific sets like Fury, Evasion, Forward Momentum, mostly Stamina stuff), will still make for stronger PvP builds than medium.

Healing Ward:
The reps believed that the initial small heal played a critical role in PVP (e.g. getting out of execute range) and would upset the already precarious power balance between Magicka Vs. Stamina in PVP. Magicka is already going to get hit with whatever change comes about with Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka, and this is going to exacerbate matters such that people may just roll a heavy armor Stamina warden.

Blackrose Weapons and other arena weapons: Did not have time to discuss. We will email our feedback about them as well as the proposal that all the arena weapon should receive a 1-piece bonus.

Wrapping Up:
We ended on DPS parses and we wish we had more than 3 minutes to continue this conversation as it finally got to the heart of many “pain points” the community has. In terms of damage output, at least when it comes to a target dummy parse, we did acknowledge the classes are relatively close to each other (especially Stamina). So from the perspective of a class not being allowed to a trial raid, that is the fault of an uniformed raid lead, rather than the damage capability of a class.

However, we felt how players were getting that DPS and how these goals were achieved could be done better. Specifically, we felt there’s a lot of heavy attacking, certain classes have to spell symmetry while other can infinitely sustain a light-attack rotation, certain skills got nerfed (e.g. DK Flame Lash), and other things that are either not fun or have negative effects in other aspects of the game.

In short, it is fair to say DPS parses are better and more in-line, but the gameplay to get the DPS is not as enjoyable. This statement made an impression on the Devs (one made a point to repeat it).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Yesterday afternoon, we met with our Class Reps to discuss the changes currently on the PTS. But first, before we get to the meeting notes - we know everyone feels strongly about the changes made to Annulment and Conjured Ward in last week’s PTS patch, and we’ve been reading everyone’s feedback both in-game and across various forums and chats. As we mentioned during our meeting with the Class Reps yesterday, we are open to making adjustments as long as we are still meeting our original goals.

We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health. Our goal with the damage shield changes has been to address the fact that you can create builds that maximize damage while ignoring defense. We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. By limiting damage shield strength on max health, it makes the health stat much more attractive than it was previously for damage shield users.

So with that, below are the meeting notes compiled by the Reps themselves (mainly @JoyDivsion - thank you!).

---

Class Rep Meeting with ZOS for Update 20

We approached this meeting differently. Previously we went for more of a “here’s a list of all the pain points” approach, which meant that while the Devs heard a lot of concerns, there was too little time for interaction as to why those were concerns. This meeting we wanted to actually discuss and communicate with the Devs why they made certain controversial changes. This meant we got a lot more insight into their thinking and, importantly, they got more on why we (and thus the community) felt some changes would not improve the game. We felt the drawback to this approach could be minimized by emailing ZOS the list of class/role specific issue we had. Basically, this means there is stuff we emailed and otherwise communicated to ZOS that isn’t in this document.

Sorcerer Shields:
We spent at least 30 minutes discussing shields. The gist of ZOS’s explanation to us what that they wanted to even the survivability between Stamina and Magicka (the specific example that a Magicka build could spam shields without paying attention to a Boss was used), ZOS wanted sorcerers to make more difficult decision regarding their class defense rather than just stack Magicka and have large shields, and ZOS feels that shields are quite a potent defense mechanic in that they are both excellent reactive and can be used proactively (something Breath of Life cannot do).

Every rep that spoke remarked that sorcerers already have to make difficult decisions with builds because sustain is an issue and lack of bar space, which means they already have trouble securing legit kills in PvP (i.e. not kill stealing by spamming mage’s wrath). We also noted that making shields so they can be critically hit was already a significant nerf that deserved testing on its own, and that the one-second cast-time will get sorcerers killed in a competitive PvP environment. We also said that ZOS has hit sorcerer offensive capability pretty hard the past year, which makes the sort of build diversity they want harder. They acknowledged this and did more than insinuate that sorcerer offense is going to be reformed in the future (at one point, a dev asked out loud if they could be specific. They could not). We told them without these offensive changes it was asking too much to hit the sorcerers with a nerf to their defense first and make them wait for this vague promise in the future. We also mentioned, numerous times, that the mechanic of cast-times is something that is disliked by many people because it breaks the flow of the fluid and ast paced combat that defines ESO. We also went through a bunch of other various reasons that folks on the forums and discords brought up. In short, we pressed and that’s why it lasted over 30 minutes.

With the changes to resistances, having instant cast damage shields is even going to make them even stronger in PvE. We acknowledged this as a potential issue and agreed some adjustment was going to be needed. ZOS seems to be open to refinements and reforms that match their desired goals. The Devs have indicated they are well aware of the feedback, they saw the memes, they know this is a huge change. Some ideas were bounced around. Someone (I forget who) brought up the possibility of lowering the shields to a desired size for PVE and adjusting Battlespirit so they aren’t useless in PvP. My impression is that ZOS is agreeable to making a different sort of adjustment, but they still want to keep their goals of Stamina Vs. Magicka survivability, want some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves, they don’t want a Magicka build spamming shields while ignoring PvE mechanics. The Devs ended our conversation with the thought whether or not a morph choice would be well received, that is if one morph had a one-second cast time and you got a large shield and another morph which removed the cast-time, but you’d get a smaller shield (the strengths were not mentioned specifically).

There’s only so much I can type and not every detail from our conversation is printed above. I came way from this conversation with the impression that the Devs are open. They know it’s a big change, they know there are potentially better ways to achieve their goals.

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Dragonknights
Stamina DKs still want some form of identity. Poison changes only affected their cheap skills. We made it crystal clear that players don’t like Noxious Breath and wouldn’t like it even if it miraculously always hit. We got the impression the Devs are aware stam DKs want some sort of damage skill and could be nudged further in that direction if it was something more than asking for a generic “stamwhip!”

Magicka DKs. ZOS told us according to the target dummy parse, the sustain loss from Flame Lash is made up for the higher damage from Eruption and heavy attacking. We acknowledged that may be correct, however PVP gameplay is a dynamic beast, where Eruption is not easily used for an offensive DK and heavy staff attacks are easily dodge or blocked. The reps were clear in communicating that the changes have made PvP sustain a pain point. The Devs accepted this logic.

Reps also talked about how the core issues revolving MagDK is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that MagDKs can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in a sort of limbo when it comes to open world PvP.

Player Speed
ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue.

Sorcerers:
Much of their feedback was included in the discussion with shields. Sustain isn’t good, mobility took a hit, offense was nerfed, etc.

The week 2 changes to Dark Deal were needed and the skill is something that sorcerers can work with now.

We talked about sorcerer ultimates. The loss of a third bar from Overload has crowded sorcerers’ bars and ZOS is asking players to completely change how the class is played. ZOS indicated that they were thinking of changing one of the Ultimates into a Stamina morph since they were the only class that didn’t have one and the reps simultaneously said “Air Atronach”.

Overall we felt that from a Stamina sorcerer perspective, update 20 was more about what was being taken away, rather than was being added to make the class more interesting to play. The same, of course, is true from a Magicka perspective.

Wardens:
We raised concerns that even if a Warden’s DPS parse was now within acceptable standards (we feel this is debatable as some testing indicate a DPS loss), how this came about could have been done differently. The Netch and Shalk changes were welcome for sustain, but it was puzzling why Swarm, a skill many Wardens think is dull and dislike the cast twice and get higher damage mechanic, got such a high cost increase. ZOS stated magicka Warden sustain was better than Stamina after all of the buffs (Betty Netch restore, Shalk cost reduction) which is why they focused on the Swarm ability, which was extremely cheap and not used by stam Warden.

The Bird of Prey change was nice in that a player could gain the benefit with less buff spamming, but the option to actually cast the skill to also buff damage on the other bar is an unfortunate loss.

The return of a stun was welcome, though the Artic Blast change was the one instance where there was disagreement between the reps. One of the reps strongly felt that the stun should have been put on the other morph as the damage on Artic Blast was an ability that enabled the very sort of build diversity ZOS seeks. This was answered that difficult choices had to be made and that it was not possible to please everyone. The Rep still felt if people had to be displeased, it should have been the other morph.

Nightblades:
There was a feeling the patch was more about what was being taken away rather than what was gained. Nightblades DPS is still good, but tank and healing NBs were particularly affected by the changes. More of this will be put into the respective sections

It was also mentioned that the cumulative changes to Nightblades, in particular the loss of healing, has turned the class into more of a “brawler” that relies on non-Nightblade stuff like gear that defines their builds.

We were running low on time, so specific Nightblade feedback will be sent to the Developer team.

Pets:
No critical resistance and the shield change mechanic means they are squishier. ZOS indicated to us they are willing to look at specific problematic PvE fights in which pets do more harm than good via triggering boss mechanics, dying, etc. The reps already have a thorough list and will send it to the Devs.

Soldier of Anguish set:
We voiced our displeasure over the abusive potential of this set. The debuff cannot stack, but it can be refreshed, which the reps said was still problematic. The reps also indicated that this set should not be compared to a damage oriented proc set such as Viper since damage is affected by battle-spirit and other resistances whereas this set is not. ZOS indicated they are willing to adjust the parameters of the set, specifically whether the cooldown should be lengthened and the value of how much debuffed healing. The reps indicated that perhaps it was better to redesign the set, in light that similar one-target proc sets (such as Sloads) have often caused problems and had to be eventually be nerfed. The idea that it would debuff a group of players (obviously for a lower amounts) was one suggestion.

Tanks:
DKs are still the top, the shield change made them even more desirable.

Templar tanking is much improved, although they are still lacking in the control department.

Nightblade tanking was centered on Tavas and that is going away. In general, it’s probably a good thing not to have classes depend on a single set of gear, but update 20 is not offering an attractive alternative for nightblades. ZOS indicated they are aware NB tanking sustain is dependent on light attacking (not easy) and avoiding certain hits (now not possible). There was some back and forth as to exactly what sort of fights and scenario NBs fall short on, however we were running out of time. We will follow up with an email to get everyone on the same page.

More tanking feedback was sent to ZOS in lieu of time constraints

Healers
Healers did not believe that shield changes would make them more desirable. What healers want most of all is too have impactful skills that make a tangible difference to other players such that groups would genuinely feel they were better off to have the healer than another DPS. This led into another discussion about how we think the CP system and power creep has made it easier for groups to avoid mechanics and just DPS burn stuff without the need for healers.

Nightblade and sorcerer healers have concerns with Update 20. Twilight Matriarch will have less shielding and loss of Overload bar and additional skills means sorcerers have to make adjustments and do so without getting any buffs to compensate. Nightblade healers won’t be able to be as offensive or aggressive in their healing, which again compels change via nerfs rather than buffs.

We also mentioned that it would be a good idea if healers had access to impactful skills that could not be replicated via gear or overlapping buffs from DPS. The Siphon Spirit skill, to take one example, is terrible (cast time, has a cooldown, and offers redundant buffs more efficiently acquired elsewhere). This used to be an interesting and dynamic skill that was a stable of healers back in the day.

Tasear has an extensive list of more specific feedback that was passed to ZOS.

Templars
Considering time constraints, it was agreed that it would be better if Joy Division provided the critical feedback in a comprehensive written email rather than rush through stuff. Note from Joy: “Jabs damage, evasion mitigating templar spammable, minor vitality loss, minor protection uptime, Crescent Sweep mechanics are the main points. Other minor ones will be included as well.”

Other Mechanics
Duel Wield Enchantments are much more powerful than other weapons as both are full strength (so is infused) and will have more uptime. ZOS indicated they are aware of this.

ZOS asked us about our feelings about heavy attacks, whether or not we felt they were worthwhile. We indicated the Stamina model was smoother mostly because they were faster, easier to connect in PVP (or would be if players weren’t zooming around) for the sustain, and fit the pace of the game better. In contrast, Ice and Inferno attacks feel slow, not very impactful, and were too easy to deny resources in PvP via dodge or tapping block. Lightning staff as a channel felt ok because the user was always doing something (although single target damage is not great).

The class reps indicated that speeding heavy attacks them up would be desirable, but players are mostly looking for impact and to feel like they accomplished something worthwhile by taking the time to do a heavy attack rather than using a skill. Resources are ok, but it feels more of a chore and something that had to be done just to resume a DPS rotation rather than the heavy attack itself being impactful.

Forward Momentum, Shuffle, and Evasion. We were under a time crunch and did not discuss these related mechanics nearly enough. Forward Momentum enabling heavy armor builds to be more maneuverable than medium armor was identified, and ZOS indicated this was undesirable. Forward Momentum was also identified as one of the mechanics that enabled players to be too fast. It would not surprise me if this skill was adjusted. Evasion is a topic that deserved more discussion. We indicated it was difficult to judge the impact it would have in PvP and PvE setting as only so much can be done on the PTS. We did express our concerns that heavy armor, mostly in conjunction with non-heavy armor things (specific sets like Fury, Evasion, Forward Momentum, mostly Stamina stuff), will still make for stronger PvP builds than medium.

Healing Ward:
The reps believed that the initial small heal played a critical role in PVP (e.g. getting out of execute range) and would upset the already precarious power balance between Magicka Vs. Stamina in PVP. Magicka is already going to get hit with whatever change comes about with Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka, and this is going to exacerbate matters such that people may just roll a heavy armor Stamina warden.

Blackrose Weapons and other arena weapons: Did not have time to discuss. We will email our feedback about them as well as the proposal that all the arena weapon should receive a 1-piece bonus.

Wrapping Up:
We ended on DPS parses and we wish we had more than 3 minutes to continue this conversation as it finally got to the heart of many “pain points” the community has. In terms of damage output, at least when it comes to a target dummy parse, we did acknowledge the classes are relatively close to each other (especially Stamina). So from the perspective of a class not being allowed to a trial raid, that is the fault of an uniformed raid lead, rather than the damage capability of a class.

However, we felt how players were getting that DPS and how these goals were achieved could be done better. Specifically, we felt there’s a lot of heavy attacking, certain classes have to spell symmetry while other can infinitely sustain a light-attack rotation, certain skills got nerfed (e.g. DK Flame Lash), and other things that are either not fun or have negative effects in other aspects of the game.

In short, it is fair to say DPS parses are better and more in-line, but the gameplay to get the DPS is not as enjoyable. This statement made an impression on the Devs (one made a point to repeat it).

Stonefist stamina morph dragonfist!!!!!!
Closer you are the more damage it does and reduces healing received!!

Lord_Eomer

When is next meeting?

Suddwrath

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

When is next meeting?

I feel like I remember a rep recently mentioned the meeting would take place during the first week of December.

sadlythebest

Thanks for this

Lord_Eomer

SaltySudd wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

When is next meeting?

I feel like I remember a rep recently mentioned the meeting would take place during the first week of December.

Thank you for information but where are meeting notes?