[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - September 25

Stigant

Steel-256 wrote: »

It starts off as The Devs listened to what everyone was not wanting in regards to the Sorc and its shields. They seemed to not listen when we didn't want Major Mending taken away from the templar. It also says Sorcs don't have sustain from doing there shields and other things, well news update ZOS you killed all sustain with Morrowind. Game keeps diminishing from what it once was. I suggest this, just revert everything back to the base game with classes being like they were meant to be.

I push for a time before Morrowind and not this garbage we have now

Yes ... give us back flashing lights and I ll go back to Templar

Shad0wfire99

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

This is so cringe to read that I can't even comment about something, without being ridiculed or attacked instantly.

It's like fighting for something that will never end. And the no lifers won...

You used "cringe" like that and called other people "no-lifers?" Ok.

Lucky28

Universe wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

stack shields in pvp is a huge problem and ZoS will keep it... omg

PvP lets you crit on the shields now, or did you forget about that? Also, the 12K Hardened Ward I have now is going to be gimped to 10K unless I figure out a way to get my Health up without damaging my Magicka.

I think the main point is they did way more than they needed to do and the main change they needed to make to shields they didn't. making it so harness magicka and Hardened ward couldn't stack would have been a great place to start. making so many changes to one mechanic in a single patch is just asking for a multitude of problems.

Not being able to stack shields isn't a viable solution.
This will only cause magicka Sorcerers to not be able to play in any form of PVP or in difficult PVE content.

That's not true. when i was still playing i played magblade in that very way, because of the nerf to strife i used force pulse in it's place. They would play almost identically with the only real difference being in the escape.

Which i'll admit. the fact that my magblade essentially became a sorc is the main reason i lost interest in ESO and stopped playing. so, i'm not a fan of it...... it seems ZoS in dead set on something tho, and it would be better.

Cinbri

From no-CP point of view: people focus on sustain builds and dont have access to offensive CP passives, that result in low crit chance for majority of builds that are not glass-cannons; means shields getting higher benefit from raw Armor as people cant stack penetration and still have nice survivability. There is no boosts of defensive mechanics, so shields never pass 40% hp anyway.
If short, crittable damage shields that take Armor into account and cap on 40% hp is buff to damage shields on no-CP, not nerf.

HeroOfNone

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

ruikkarikun

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

I tried veteran Ruin of Mazzatun on stamina dps, and it was easier then my shield OP sorc on LIVE server. Why so? I have vigor, I have roll dodge, block etc.

So why you think sorcerer are so OP on LIVE? Show me sorcerer who are viewable in vet Trials now? (pet sorc)

With so low shields in PVE how pets will survive? On live server sorcerer hasbad sustain and bad selfheal, you nerfed shield, but didn't give any alternative skills for defence and survive. Please explain why sorcerer Damage Dealer need to sacriface somesthing and think about tank setup in PVE while stamina and other magicka classes (magicka nightblade have good selfheal and sustain) all focusing on damage dealing?

idk

In the end Gina mentioned the class reps felts damage between the classes were fairly close, especially stamina.

However, one of the bigger issues is Zos tends to balance stam and magicka but has been inconsistent with melee vs ranged. There have been times melee magicka has seriously underperformed stamina melee because magicka itself was weaker.

When magicka is weaker it essentially rules out mDKs and to a degree mTemplars as a result as they cannot compete for a melee spot on a raid team.

Bergzorn

Cinbri wrote: »

From no-CP point of view: people focus on sustain builds and dont have access to offensive CP passives, that result in low crit chance for majority of builds that are not glass-cannons; means shields getting higher benefit from raw Armor as people cant stack penetration and still have nice survivability. There is no boosts of defensive mechanics, so shields never pass 40% hp anyway.
If short, crittable damage shields that take Armor into account and cap on 40% hp is buff to damage shields on no-CP, not nerf.

I agree, but your conclusion is only true if you build for resistances (armor and/or impen), at least a bit. It's a good thing that this is possible now for light armor users, where you have to sacrifice something to achieve high armor resistances.

I don't really like that heavy armor users will get a lot out of wards, if they can incorporate them in their build.

C3N50R3D

Bergzorn wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

From no-CP point of view: people focus on sustain builds and dont have access to offensive CP passives, that result in low crit chance for majority of builds that are not glass-cannons; means shields getting higher benefit from raw Armor as people cant stack penetration and still have nice survivability. There is no boosts of defensive mechanics, so shields never pass 40% hp anyway.
If short, crittable damage shields that take Armor into account and cap on 40% hp is buff to damage shields on no-CP, not nerf.

I agree, but your conclusion is only true if you build for resistances (armor and/or impen), at least a bit. It's a good thing that this is possible now for light armor users, where you have to sacrifice something to achieve high armor resistances.

I don't really like that heavy armor users will get a lot out of wards, if they can incorporate them in their build.

Rattlecage FTW! That Mad Architect will be dying a lot. XD

Minno

code65536 wrote: »

So... based on these two posts by Rob, this is basically a PvE shield nerf, then.

That is exactly what it sounds like to me. Should be kinda good now, with resists + impen values being added; sorcs might not need to invest in one build type now (obviously pending some testing).

Minno

Bergzorn wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

From no-CP point of view: people focus on sustain builds and dont have access to offensive CP passives, that result in low crit chance for majority of builds that are not glass-cannons; means shields getting higher benefit from raw Armor as people cant stack penetration and still have nice survivability. There is no boosts of defensive mechanics, so shields never pass 40% hp anyway.
If short, crittable damage shields that take Armor into account and cap on 40% hp is buff to damage shields on no-CP, not nerf.

I agree, but your conclusion is only true if you build for resistances (armor and/or impen), at least a bit. It's a good thing that this is possible now for light armor users, where you have to sacrifice something to achieve high armor resistances.

I don't really like that heavy armor users will get a lot out of wards, if they can incorporate them in their build.

He's right in that armor is one of the stats that are not locked behind CP. My armor between CP and nCP are essentially that same value, compared to things like dodge roll costs, break free costs, shield costs (due to no CP available to make LA less punishing), etc.

If you calculate the armor into the equation, all mitigation will reduce the dmg down then shield subtracts from that damage. Block is after the shield. If your LA build can get 18-21k resists, youll see a substantial boost to shield strength.

Bleeds/sloads however are entirely different discussion. But I have a feeling increased source of major protection access was their answer for the bleeds. Sloads would be better stamina management for dodge rolling (at least for templar/wardens running netch/restoring rune) or better healing over time access. Obviously some of these are not available for sorcs, which should be addressed next before Live hits (especially modernizing dark deal and it's morphs further to match restoring/netch/siphoning strikes).

Aerius_Sygale

Yeah yeah, updately ritual of nerfing Nightblades six ways to Sundas. Wow, Power Extraction buff! ...Big whoop, I never use it, I doubt it will be enough to change that. Meanwhile, Wardens got hella buffed...

SorataArisugawa

Soldier224 wrote: »

The Sorc must be the best class of all... i think not.


The M Sorc needs a big nerf in PvP. M Sorc teleport+endlessShield+maxdmg builds should not exist.

For an DK who could can't kill a sorc, your reaction is understandable... other DKs can. So L2P.

umagon

Power Slam (Power Bash morph) needs some type of improvement. The cost of the skill is 3159 stamina with the skill line passives and its cost is 1 point of stamina for ~2.38 points of damage. To maximize the damage a block has to be done which costs additional 1107 stamina with fortress passive. So, the ratio becomes for every 1 point of stamina used ~2.08 point of damage is done. You are gaining nothing other than spending resources to get less damage output over time.

This on top of power slam not effected by the champion point bashing focus and ensnare (I know it’s not a bash technically but should it be considered to be one seeing it uses a shield is the question), and power slam has no secondary functions. Such as status debuffs or crowd control.

Pierce armor gives ~4.26 points of damage for every 1 point of stamina spent and applies major fracture/breach. Which improves it’s damage efficiency.

I understand that pierce armor is a taunts and power slam doesn’t but end game pve people do not use one hand and shield for dps. If power slam is going to be the dps skill in the one hand and shield weapon line it needs some type of improvement.

There is a missed opportunity for power slam to synergize with shield discipline, because the efficiency so poor in comparison to other skills in the weapon line. I know there is a lot going on but can some please bring this up at one of those meetings. Power slam has been like this for far too long it needs a review.

Minno

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

This nerfs mag builds that need it while stamina builds won't see much of a nerf.

Better change is to cap your speed via battlespirit with no immunity granted for snares.

But are we ready to go back to a snare meta game? I am not; best to leave swift as it is and make the devs fix the lag/hitboxes some more.

Juhasow

code65536 wrote: »

So... based on these two posts by Rob, this is basically a PvE shield nerf, then.

No it's also nerf in PvP mister Rob just used numbers and ability that is not showing it. Lets assume person that uses shield have 24k health and 42k magicka which is more common plus have Dampen Magic morph. With lets say 12% in bastion and 5 light armor pieces shield value should be ~10,5k which means 1k shield loss because of the change. With Hardened Ward it'll be even higher loss since if I am correct it takes ~0,39 max magicka. So at the end sorc will have smaller shields that can now also take crit dmg etc. It's huge nerf for Hardened Ward in both PvE and PvP.

Karivaa

I have always mained a healer in every mmo I have played until the past year in ESO because when I want to get achievements in dungeons or even do the new dlc content, I am told they would rather do it with 3 dps and a tank. It has been very disappointing to have so many other classes with powerful heals.

Amdar_Godkiller

Juhasow wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

So... based on these two posts by Rob, this is basically a PvE shield nerf, then.

No it's also nerf in PvP mister Rob just used numbers and ability that is not showing it. Lets assume person that uses shield have 24k health and 42k magicka which is more common plus have Dampen Magic morph. With lets say 12% in bastion and 5 light armor pieces shield value should be ~10,5k which means 1k shield loss because of the change. With Hardened Ward it'll be even higher loss since if I am correct it takes ~0,39 max magicka. So at the end sorc will have smaller shields that can now also take crit dmg etc. It's huge nerf for Hardened Ward in both PvE and PvP.

That's kind of the point. Shields were massively over-performing in pvp and pve.

HeroOfNone

Minno wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Make swift 15%-20% speed increase outside of combat and in combat 5% max
Get to your fights faster but not able to run away quick.

It would nerf it enough not to be meta, but make it common dropped would make it useful to new players without mount upgrades.

This nerfs mag builds that need it while stamina builds won't see much of a nerf.

Better change is to cap your speed via battlespirit with no immunity granted for snares.

But are we ready to go back to a snare meta game? I am not; best to leave swift as it is and make the devs fix the lag/hitboxes some more.

What mage builds "need" it? Many already have gap closers, ranged abilities, natural snares, and other speed modifiers/teleports.

Another two ideas on swift:

1. Increase speed on heavy attacks and reduce/remove the run speed
2. A change to mechanics in general, but allow moving while in root similar to the hand change, common tactic is to root and circle targets quickly where channel and cones can't track.

dagonbeer

Soldier224 wrote: »

The Sorc must be the best class of all... i think not.


The M Sorc needs a big nerf in PvP. M Sorc teleport+endlessShield+maxdmg builds should not exist.

They don't exist. Any sorc doing endless shields is running one, if not two sustain sets. Their burst is predictable. Teleport means nothing now that stam builds can just idly stroll along at max speeds.

(Not a sorc main, but I don't feel they're OP by any measure in PvP and I don't fear them on the field.)

Anyway, good job ZOS @ZOS_RobGarrett for this change. Maybe the numbers need to be adjusted still given that shields can be crit'ed, but good move away from cast times. (Now just give us back the heal to healing ward! )

NyxWrench

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

So, as I understand it:

In PVP, a player with 20k health would need to have 46k magicka before the HP cap would begin to affect them.

46000 * 0.35 = 16100 / 2 = 8050, vs 8000 cap

Since that will basically never happen, this will have no effect on PVP.

Caveats:

The example given does not show whether the 23% bonus of Hardened Ward applies before or after the HP cap.

The example given does not show whether CP points in Bastion apply before or after the HP cap.

If Hardened Ward's bonus applies before the cap, that starts to affect PVP players at above 37k magicka, with 20k health. Still a far outlier, and not likely to happen or have any significant impact if it does.


In PVE, a player with 32k magicka (a reasonably balanced amount, rather than glass cannon amount) would create a shield of 11,200 (before Hardened Ward bonus or Bastion bonus). In order for that to not be capped, the player would need to have at least 28,000 HP. In general, this is not viable. Doing some quick math, I can't see maintaining higher than about 24k health while maintaining 32k magicka. (I may have missed something; math was quick and dirty.)

On the other hand, a 50% cap would fit that 'balanced' build reasonably well, while still penalizing the glass cannon build. 42k magicka would have a 14,700 shield, and if they're going in with 17k health, that gets capped to 8500; more than a 40% reduction.

Basically, if you want to push people to a more balanced build rather than glass cannon, you need to give enough margin that the balanced build can benefit.

A 50% cap applied before other factors (Hardened Ward's boost, and Bastion CP) would encourage an amount of health that makes the class more survivable in general. 32k magicka would want 22k health (a pretty reasonable goal) to get an 11k shield (losing only 200 points from cap), that grows to 13.5k with Hardened Ward's boost.

A total effective health of 35.5k should be very reasonable from a survivability standpoint, as it's comparable to the 17k health + 17k shields we have now. Compared to that, a 43k magicka/17k health build would have a 10.5k shield, putting total effective health at 27.5k. With that, there's a real tension between offense and defense.

However, going back to the caveats, if Hardened Ward's bonus applies before the cap, you'd need 28k health to use its full potential (with 32k magicka), even with a 50% cap. Someone with 20k health would be hitting the cap with less than 19k magicka, which is severely restrictive, and not conducive towards pushing away from the current glass cannon builds.


Conclusion: If the dev's goal is to push away from the glass cannon builds (in anticipation of whatever the future offensive changes to sorcerer will be), they should raise the HP cap to 50% of the user's max health, and bonuses to shield strength should apply after the cap, not before.

Donnasnowheart_ESO

I'm Confused on this whole air atronach thing. What exactly would it do differently just deal physical damage instead of shock or something? Because it already scales with whatever your highest resource is for it's damage... I really don't see them making it a mobile version either because the thing is pretty strong as is and gets a big damage boost along with another player when synergized for 6 seconds. As for the overload not sure why they didn't do the same thing they did atronach and make it scale with whatever resource would have been a super easy fix from a while ago damage and actual stam use wise.

The current pts version of overload is still far to weak and clunky so the 50% damage nerf on LA needs to be cut in half 25% or something to actually make it worth using and pets need to be 1 bar for some form of actual compensation for the loss of 3rd bar. Bound Aegis needs its cost reduced or its duration increased either or and the max stat buffs from it really just need to just go into the sorc passives to free up space for all sorc specs some more then others. Really crazy to just go and strip the 3rd bar from overload and not even glance at making pets and bound aegis 1 bar.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

@ZOS_RobGarrett out of interest why are you still applying battle spirit to shields? It seems that this change would be a good enough reduction without including battle spirit too?

Sgtsuspect

Yeah I’m mostly new to ESO and could hardly begin to weigh-in on any of these topics. However, if any of you need someone to refer to before submitting another disgrace to the English language(green writing included), I could use a job like that. I mean no offense but sweet mother Mary and Joseph. Some of this is hard to follow at times.

eso_lags

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

Thanks for the clarification.

Now will be another plea for the overload bar....

Please give overload one morph with the third bar for the sake of stam sorcs. Like if i were to drop overload on my stam sorc right now i would be losing 2/5 of the only class abilites i can use. Crit surge and streak. I would be losing accelerate/trap beast (either works) which makes up for SOME of the damage that i do not have compared to the buffs other classes inherently get (such as stamblade or classes with class damage skills and class spammables)..

I would be losing caltrops, which is nice for solo pvp.. And i would be losing meditate, which allows me to spec a little more into damage to, again, make up for not having a spammable or certain damage buffs.

Removing that 3rd bar would really pigeonhole this class more than it already is. Especially on a 2h, dizzswing, stam sorc. I can hop on a stamplar that i barely play and just mop people. Sometimes people who i cant beat on my stam sorc.. I have played stam sorc as a main for a long time.. Pvp and pve.. I am better at playing stam sorc than any other class. I probably have 3 days on my stamplar. But the class is so much easier to play, and has so much more to offer, that its not hard to do good. Esp when you're playing a 2h stam sorc.

And again, of course i would like more buffs to stam sorc. A damage ult, damage skills, some better passives and buffs... But i dont see you guys doing this. I hope you do, really, but i just dont see it. But if you have plans to buff stam sorc, please dont nerf us in the meantime. When it comes to skills, passives, damage skills, spammable attacks, buffs, and debuffs, we are dead last already..

eso_lags

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So people is finally getting away with nerfing forward momentum? The argument that foward momentum makes heavy armor more mobile than medium is absurd, the problem is not heavy armor or forward momentum, the problem is that medium armor SUCKS. The passives are medicore, shuffle is ***, the lack of resistences&healing&health compared to heavy doesn't work in the current burst meta, the only effective medium builds atm are with impregnable, and the only reason they work is because impregnable is broken af. The solution is not a nerf to forward momentum, is a buff to medium armor, starting with shuffle and with that useless stealth passive that is a waste of skill points.

Stamblades being more effective as brawler now is the result of the change of meta. Old nighblade playstyle doesn't work, medium is ***, the game is full of undoggeable things, people is hitting really hard, etc. Also there is nothing wrong with being able to play an effective brawler, i'm not interested in being forced to run a roly poly build again, specially on this meta.

Dimishh returns for stacking movement speed bonuses is something i've suggested since the whole swift drama started. Is the logical choice for solving this. Nerfing major expedition would be really dumb.

I couldn't avoid laughting when i read the magDK part, they can't deal with bleads and defiles? lol. The self healing of the magDKs is insane, is absurd how much healing you can get on a magDK even while going full ofensive. Get real, if the magDKs lacks healing then i will make a post saying that stamblades lacks damage lol.

Hey @ManDraKE!

I would highly encourage you to read the post again.

No one said that mdks healing is bad, it was said that they have an unproportional hard time dealing with defiles - that’s a completely different argument. Careful to not fall into the scarecrow fallacy. Taking the most common playstyles into consideration:

-Both templars possess purge.
- Magsorcs have shields, so basically ignore defiles.
- Nightblades can cloak to mitigate damage and partially heal while clocked, as defiles aren’t an issue in a vacuum.
-Most of the stamina classes are mobile enough to avoid a lot of damage, specially with swift currently. Yet they are obviously also affected by defiles.

That essentially leaves DKs to take defiles entirely. Even though DKs have great healing (which noone is debating against) having them cut bu 80% negates that, thus the point being made about defiles.

Everyone is affected by defiles, thats for sure. But defiles were buffed to the point to where they are right now to essentially nerf tanks, which have common defense mechanisms as those as dk. So it is reasonable to assume that they arguably get affected the hardest by that change.

Hopefully I was able to clarify some points!

Have a good one!

Do you think a mag dk is worse off than a stam sorc against defile? I would say stam sorc have a disproportionately hard time dealing with defile more than any other class since we do not have shields or any healing passives or healing buffs.

That being said i personally think defile should have never been nerfed and should maybe even be buffed. We can build to counter defile. If i can do it on my stam sorc then anyone can do it. However a lot of us cant build to counter these disgusting healer builds. Mainly earthgore and perma blocking. Carry builds. Even with 6k + weapon damage in a full damage build you cant always break through that. The defile nerf was silly.

Stamsorcs do deal with it a lot easier due to them having access to mobility and other tools that DKs do not have. Compare this: Burning Embers is a pain to land on Swift running builds and really heal depends on how much damage it does or any stam builds, Crit Surge heal is much reliable especially when you have crit stat. Vigor is a nice HoT while DKs don't really have true HoT besides Power Lash heal and Power Lash is more or less dodged almost always. Dragonblood is a magicka sink when you get defiled. 1k~3k heal for 4k magicka? No thanks. Cauterize becomes unreliable the moment you are in combat near 2 or more people and gets cut by Defile severely. Spammable due to it being cheaper. Oh, and Defile is usually accompanied with strong bleed these days. Stamsorcs can actually disengage a lot better than mDK, with or without Swift. Then build back up with Dark Exchange and re-engage. DKs cannot do that all. Stam DKs basically only has Vigor unless they forego FM for Rally.

I disagree. Dks have major mending which should mitigate a lot of defile. They have minor vitality which is more healing ( from dragons blood if you choose the morph with it).. And im pretty sure they have an extra 12% healing while you have a draconic power ability up? I think. Also health recovery passives which helps with healing.

Thats a lot of extra heals. Dragons blood, cauterize, the claw, even using an ultimate will heal you.

But im not sure if you mean stam dk or mag dk so lets go over both. A stam dk could play a high mobility build just like a stam sorc. Maybe not as good but it also has a lot more to work with. But most stam dks play turtle builds. Sword and board back bar with a damage front bar. That way they can swap to their back bar and put their good heals/defensive skills to use. And they also have access to vigor. And they have the battle roar passive that can be very good for sustain when you build with a little ult regen (and even if you dont build for it). Finally, they have corrosive which allows dks to have huge defense while going on offense (and ignoring all the enemies resistance)..

Mag dk has so much to offer. In fact i think mag dk and magplar are the only classes where it is common to find ONLY class abilities on their skill bars. For heals and damage. And mag dks do damn good in duels. Its defiantly one of the top classes for it. And the heals are solid, im sorry they are. Plus most people use all 3 of those heals. I have one for a class skill. If you want to throw vigor at me, ill throw healing ward at you. And healing ward is extremely strong.

As for mobility.. Stam dks have shuffle and FM (as do I), as well as wings if they want. And while its not common i see mag dks with a 2h running FM. But mag dks have wings and mist form if they want. And a lot of mag dks use mist form. But i will agree that stam sorc is more mobile and may be one of the best classes for open world solo pvp, but thats only because of mobility, overload and dark deal. And thats just kiting. Its different when you are caught and have to deal damage against certain builds. Then its nice to have damage skills and debuffs.

And as for the claw. I play mag dk every now and again. I run wings. That way people have no choice but to come close. Although i will never abuse them in a 1v1 against a sorc or magblade, id rather lose then keep the wings up 100% of the time. But you have petrify and talons which should give you enough time to apply the claw. I dont usually have a huge problem with it. But those swift builds you're describing are tough for everyone to deal with.

At the end of the day it comes down to counters and combos. If you have more skills and passives then you can have more combos to use. You can make different builds. And you can counter more builds and playstyles. Dks have very high dot damage, high burst, and very high CC. They have solid healing and a complete counter to range. They counter many builds well. And really only someone like a templar will counter mag dk... What does a stam sorc counter 1v1?

Ranger209

Galarthor wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett

You do realize that these changes will only aggravate the shield stacking.
6k shield is a sad joke in PvP, especially now that it can be critted. That means sorcs will have to stack at least 2 shields to get around 12k shielding.

At the same time you are forcing sorcs to always carry around at least 2 shields neglecting the fact that sorcs already have about 0 build diversity and now will have even less.

In addition the sustain issue that sorcs have will also be aggravated b/c Hardened+ Annulment on PTS = Hardened on Live, and Annulment is considereably more expensive than Hardened.

Why not go the easiest route?
Half Shield size in PvE
Drop nerf from Battle Spirit
Prevent Conmjured and Annulment from stacking

Problem solved.

If you think shields are still to strong in PvE you could just nerf them to whatever value you deem appropriate and then just use a reveresed version of Battle Spirit and buff shields in PvP that way

I think this really is the simplest, most efficient, and best solution. Shield stacking in pvp is what makes the tankiest msorcs. They can run lower magicka and higher spell damage and have better survivability than non shield stacking msorcs. Do sorcs stack in end game pve? This would halve the individual shields value and eliminate the possibility of stacking the 2 strongest magicka base shields. Either one of them would still stack with healing ward so that would be the only stack they could use.

Delsskia

Hey Y'all

First off, I want to thank y'all for taking on the role of Class Rep and doing all the work needed. I'm sure your efforts have an impact and I'm just as sure that it's a pain in the neck. So, a tip of the hat to all of you.

I honestly believe that, on the topic of balance, everyone needs to take a few steps back and look at a much bigger picture. Right now it's just an exercise in futility because it's just not addressing the problems that complicate and exacerbate the balance issues. Balance discussions assume that things work as intended or at the very least as expected. Anyone who's stepped into Cyrodiil knows that nothing works as expected. It's a complete mess.

Obviously, the performance issues are the first things we all notice. Often times we have to cast instant cast skills multiple times just to get them to fire off once. Anything with a cast time has about as much chance of never firing as it does of eventually firing. Compounding that, you can be silenced, poisoned, stunned, snared, rooted, feared, defiled, have your armor, resistance, weapon/spell damage and regeneration lessened and all of that can occur at the same time. If you manage to break free and roll dodge out of some of that, 2 steps later you're frozen in place again with all of the same cc's and debuffs hitting you all over again.

All the while that's going on, sets are proccing left and right. If you're one of the lucky classes that has a decent heal, hopefully it's on the bar that you're stuck on because you can't reliably weapon swap to get to the other bar. While all that's happening, trying to synergize a Templar cleanse is almost impossible and purge only hits 6 people. On top of that, that cleanse or purge seems to have no priority list. It's just as likely to purge off the 5 minor debuffs that you aren't all that concerned about and leave the major debuffs that are the main culprits doing you in. And that's if the purge actually fires. If, by some miracle, you manage to live through all of that, chances are all of your skills are greyed out because the game thinks that you're sprinting and you die while spamming the "E" key trying to get through the door of a Keep.

There's simply no way to have a meaningful discussion about balance when the most basic things in the game don't work correctly.

I'm pretty sure that most of the PvE folks would be fine with, and all of the PvPers would be dancing in the streets if, ZOS suspended new content creation and reskinned Crown Store mounts for a quarter and concentrated all of their resources and efforts on performance. Most likely that would entail rewriting the code, with real documentation, on top of a modern game engine that's actually suited to mass combat. That would be the perfect time to code in real diminishing returns and immunities on debuffs and cc's against players.

Once the game is performing like a Gold Master then, and only then, will discussions about fine tuning balance have any real meaning.

Juhasow

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

So... based on these two posts by Rob, this is basically a PvE shield nerf, then.

No it's also nerf in PvP mister Rob just used numbers and ability that is not showing it. Lets assume person that uses shield have 24k health and 42k magicka which is more common plus have Dampen Magic morph. With lets say 12% in bastion and 5 light armor pieces shield value should be ~10,5k which means 1k shield loss because of the change. With Hardened Ward it'll be even higher loss since if I am correct it takes ~0,39 max magicka. So at the end sorc will have smaller shields that can now also take crit dmg etc. It's huge nerf for Hardened Ward in both PvE and PvP.

That's kind of the point. Shields were massively over-performing in pvp and pve.

And what excatly overperformed in PvE and PvP ? Which shields and why ? Problem is many people (including You) just likes to say "sorc bad , shields OP" without even fully understanding why or understanding it completly wrong. For the recond shields taking crit dmg , status effects and dmg from poisons/enchants is already strong nerf and fix of shields. Also saying "massively overperforming in pvp and pve" is little farfetched.

ruikkarikun

Masel92 wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Instant cast is required in this fast paced combat.

40% of max hp is pretty freaking low considering most DPS only run ~17k.

A 7k shield isn't worth anything, even my DK Tank's Igneous shield is more than that.

Yeah this actually may or may not be worse than a cast time for PVE...

It's better and worse at the same time. They reverted one nerf and gave us another.

Reducing the power of Shields in pve was the whole point. You wanna survive, get yourself a healer or a bit more health on magicka toons in pve. With 20k health the shield is already 8k. They have resistances now, something that many people don't seem to consider here. PvE mobs are at level 50, so the resistance will mitigate a lot of damage on you, because you are level 66.

Because light armor has low resistance? Because white mob deals 8-32k hit in FH dungeon for example? You think all players are good equipped and played? I was with pugs causals VROM, they didn't do mechanic at second boss even after I copy-pasted full step-by step tactics to chat.

Why stamina dps with 16k health (for example briatheart+relequen or any other meta setup) with access to roll dodge/block/run a lot with high stamina pool don't invest any point to HP, etc and doing 30-40k+ dps, and sorcerer after this changes need to be 25k HP tank with 15k dps?

ARE YOU PEOPLE INSANE?