make major defile also reduce magic shields size by 30%

boaz733

this should help balance the game,
also change the cp tree accourdinly to increase the effect.

Starlight_Knight

Make the most OP de-buff in the game become more OP.. i vote no, sorry

Apherius

Reduce the amount of nerf sorc thread by 30% would be a good start.

Septimus_Magna

And buff the detect effect so revealed enemies take 30% more dmg.

Just to balance ‘things’

Kidding aside, major defile is arguably the strongest status effect which usually comes from Incap. One of the cheapest and strongest single target ults in the game. If you think that should get a massive buff then I dont think you’re reasoning objectively.

IZZEFlameLash

How about no? This hurts non-Sorcs more. And defile needs to be toned down.

Pijng

People still qq and have problems against sorcs? Am I dreaming?

CyrusArya

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Waffennacht

The Stam bias is strong here

R_K

boaz733 wrote: »

this should help balance the game,
also change the cp tree accourdinly to increase the effect.

Slippery slope. Should it also reduce the dodge window of time by 30%? Or make it cost 30% more? What about block effectiveness or cost? All of these?

Iki

So, you basically want game to consider damage-shields as healing.. Do you understand that then they would also be buffed by major/minor mending/vitality? Sure we could try that. One thing would not change though, we would still see new nerfsorc-threads every day.

usmguy1234

boaz733 wrote: »

this should help balance the game,
also change the cp tree accourdinly to increase the effect.

Damage modifiers already outnumber shield modifiers 10:1. If you have trouble with shields it can squarely be placed on lack of skill, inadequate build or a combination of the two.

Strider__Roshin

The main gripe I have with damage shields is the ability of hardened ward to stack with harness. Fix that and magsorcs would be a lot more balanced. Yes cloak needs some adjustment as well. Maybe have it so when someone attacks you they cannot be hidden from you specifically for 4 seconds.

ak_pvp

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

kookster

If befoul wasn't so over performing I could get behind this. But as is befoul is broken AF, so no this would be WAAAY too strong.

SergeantPink

That suggestion seems a little extreme to me. Imagine a shieldbreaker defile combo build.

I do agree magsorc shields are a little overtuned. As a ranged light amor class, I don’t believe they should be able to face tank tons of damage. It’s so easy at the moment to spam harness magicka until you get enough ultimate to turn the fight. Spamming a button to stay alive is stupid in my opinion.

Mag sorcs should be forced to focus more on staying ranged than spamming shield. Shields should be weaker and cost more which will force sorcs to focus their resources on bolt escape, stuns and slows. This will obviously cause issues with other light armor classes (which will need to be addressed).

VeiledCriticism

You know that shields are ALREADY reduced by 50% in PvP?

Chilly-McFreeze

SergeantPink wrote: »

That suggestion seems a little extreme to me. Imagine a shieldbreaker defile combo build.

I do agree magsorc shields are a little overtuned. As a ranged light amor class, I don’t believe they should be able to face tank tons of damage. It’s so easy at the moment to spam harness magicka until you get enough ultimate to turn the fight. Spamming a button to stay alive is stupid in my opinion.

Mag sorcs should be forced to focus more on staying ranged than spamming shield. Shields should be weaker and cost more which will force sorcs to focus their resources on bolt escape, stuns and slows. This will obviously cause issues with other light armor classes (which will need to be addressed).

Trust me, even sorcs would welcome a change away from shield stacking to improved kiting. But for that it would require more of a rework than simply nerfing shields.

Btw Harness magicka isnt even a sorc skill

Twohothardware

They need to completely remove the damage bonus to shields CP and then make one debuff like Defile apply to healing, health recovery AND shields.

The way they did it currently was just really dumb. You have to give up damage against more than half the players in the game in order to have more damage against just MagSorc's and MagNB's and most players don't even invest CP into shield damage. It also doesn't make sense why there are numerous Skills in the game that apply a strong debuff to healing and health recovery but not one Skill that does anything to shields.

Outside of Sloads there is only one Set in the game that's made for countering shields and that's Shield Breaker and again you're having to equip something that takes away damage against the majority just to fight MagSorc's and MagNB's.

There either needs to be a universal debuff that applies to shields as well or they need to change the way shields scale and stop letting players stack 50-60K magicka for big shields on top of getting high damage.

Twohothardware

Hiddle wrote: »

You know that shields are ALREADY reduced by 50% in PvP?

You know that healing is ALREADY reduced by 50% in PvP?

LegendaryMage

I'm gonna pretend I didn't see this and hope devs never see it either. Might give them some bad ideas.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a few nonconstructive comments. Please remember that comments should adhere to our forum rules and remain constructive/civil. Thank you.

Twohothardware

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

Waffennacht

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

Bastion stacks with no other CP, shattering blows stacks with like 2 others

Twohothardware

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

Bastion stacks with no other CP, shattering blows stacks with like 2 others

Bastion stacks with all damage reduction CP and increased Resistances because of the way shields work. If you take 15% less physical damage because of CP then your shield takes 15% less damage from physical attacks.

Galarthor

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

SergeantPink

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

I want to understand this but I cannot. How is bastion not a buff to shields? And what about shattering blows?

Strider__Roshin

ak_pvp wrote: »

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Considering the fact that CP adds +20% max magicka I would argue that damage shields already have an innate buff.

Galarthor

Have you really been reading what I wrote?

Maybe this will help:

Buffs work in both CP and nonCP environments.

CPs only work in the CP environment.

Each of these 2 systems is designed so that the positive effects and negative effects within that system counter each other. (see examples above).

If there was a debuff for shields (without a corresponding buff), then in a nonCP environment you could debuff shields without them getting any boost, since there is neither an equivalent buff in the buff system nor do CPs work in the nonCP environment.

Twohothardware

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

usmcjdking

Yeah, no. I detest shields because I think they blatantly support bad design, but they do not need to be net-nerfed in that manner for PVP purposes.

Although I do support a significant increase in shield destroying mechanics for PVE.

Twohothardware

usmcjdking wrote: »

Yeah, no. I detest shields because I think they blatantly support bad design, but they do not need to be net-nerfed in that manner for PVP purposes.

Although I do support a significant increase in shield destroying mechanics for PVE.

I'm not an expert on Trials mechanics but pretty sure enemies don't apply Major Defile to you in PvE. So this would be a PvP affecting only change.