make major defile also reduce magic shields size by 30%

usmcjdking

Twohothardware wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Yeah, no. I detest shields because I think they blatantly support bad design, but they do not need to be net-nerfed in that manner for PVP purposes.

Although I do support a significant increase in shield destroying mechanics for PVE.

I'm not an expert on Trials mechanics but pretty sure enemies don't apply Major Defile to you in PvE. So this would be a PvP affecting only change.

A few trash mobs do but I believe you are correct in that trial bosses do not apply Major Defile. They apply worse *** like Ultra Defile Stank Breath in VMOL where my 5k vigor tick gets reduced to 750. VAS isn't classified as Major Defile either although it's called major defile and crushes your healing by much more than 30%.

Twohothardware

usmcjdking wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Yeah, no. I detest shields because I think they blatantly support bad design, but they do not need to be net-nerfed in that manner for PVP purposes.

Although I do support a significant increase in shield destroying mechanics for PVE.

I'm not an expert on Trials mechanics but pretty sure enemies don't apply Major Defile to you in PvE. So this would be a PvP affecting only change.

A few trash mobs do but I believe you are correct in that trial bosses do not apply Major Defile. They apply worse *** like Ultra Defile Stank Breath in VMOL where my 5k vigor tick gets reduced to 750. VAS isn't classified as Major Defile either although it's called major defile and crushes your healing by much more than 30%.

They apply a defile healing debuff yes but I'm guessing that it's probably different from the player version of Major and Minor Defile is it not? Either way, as you said, PvE needs more shield destroying mechanics because of the large difference in survivability between Magicka shield users and Stamina users.

Galarthor

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

Merlin13KAGL

Twohothardware wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Yeah, no. I detest shields because I think they blatantly support bad design, but they do not need to be net-nerfed in that manner for PVP purposes.

Although I do support a significant increase in shield destroying mechanics for PVE.

I'm not an expert on Trials mechanics but pretty sure enemies don't apply Major Defile to you in PvE. So this would be a PvP affecting only change.

Pretty sure Thurvokun and his shalks would like word.

pieratsos

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Considering the fact that CP adds +20% max magicka I would argue that damage shields already have an innate buff.

Heals are also buffed with that 20% max magicka. What are you even talking about. Should we make heals not affected by mending and vitality now?

Its really not that hard to understand. Bastion is countered by shattering blows and thats the end of it. The CP system is completely irrelevant with the major/minor buff system. Shields cannot be debuffed through any major/minor debuff because they also cant be buffed through any major/minor buff.

pieratsos

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Wait wait wait. Did you actually insinuate that shields having no resistances is good for them because opponents have waisted points in penetration CP? Can you even comprehend the stupidity of that comment?

But sure, if you feel like that running around with no resistances is good then by all means. Go ahead in cyrodiil with broken gear. You are making everyone waist their CP points into penetration. Brilliant tactic. How did anyone never thought of it.

Twohothardware

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

Strider__Roshin

pieratsos wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Considering the fact that CP adds +20% max magicka I would argue that damage shields already have an innate buff.

Heals are also buffed with that 20% max magicka. What are you even talking about. Should we make heals not affected by mending and vitality now?

Its really not that hard to understand. Bastion is countered by shattering blows and thats the end of it. The CP system is completely irrelevant with the major/minor buff system. Shields cannot be debuffed through any major/minor debuff because they also cant be buffed through any major/minor buff.

Yes but the strength of heals aren't increased by 20% with 20% more magicka. The strength of shields however are.

Twohothardware

pieratsos wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Wait wait wait. Did you actually insinuate that shields having no resistances is good for them because opponents have waisted points in penetration CP? Can you even comprehend the stupidity of that comment?

But sure, if you feel like that running around with no resistances is good then by all means. Go ahead in cyrodiil with broken gear. You are making everyone waist their CP points into penetration. Brilliant tactic. How did anyone never thought of it.

As I said in my previous post, the size of shields have been scaled by ZOS to take into account that they have no resistances and can't crit, and shields have continued to get larger as users have been able to more easily achieve 50K+ Magicka builds whereas the Resistance cap for armor is still the same.

Shields are also instantly reset to full every recast so even at 1% health your shields will still absorb as much damage as if you had 100% health. If you're at the max 33,100 Resistance cap as a Stamina user and have 1% health left you're dead if you take any damage at all. As long as you have the sustain you essentially have 100% resistance with shields because your health doesn't drop until the shields go down unless that user is running Sloads or Shield Breaker.

That's where the issue with Defile + Befoul CP is coming in with 45-50% Major Defile and then potentially another 20%+ from Minor Defile enchant. Non shield users are getting a huge decrease in their ability to survive while there is no similar debuff that has close to the same affect on Shield stackers.

Feanor

Twohothardware wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Wait wait wait. Did you actually insinuate that shields having no resistances is good for them because opponents have waisted points in penetration CP? Can you even comprehend the stupidity of that comment?

But sure, if you feel like that running around with no resistances is good then by all means. Go ahead in cyrodiil with broken gear. You are making everyone waist their CP points into penetration. Brilliant tactic. How did anyone never thought of it.

Read my below post. The size of shields have been scaled by ZOS to take into account that they have no resistances and can't crit, and shields have continued to get larger as users have been able to more easily achieve 50K-60K Magicka builds whereas the Resistance cap for armor is still the same.

Shields are also instantly reset to full every recast so even at 1% health your shields will still absorb as much damage as if you had 100% health. If you're at the max 33,100 Resistance cap as a Stamina user and have 1% health left you're dead if you take any damage at all.

I’d like ZOS to scale my damage shields properly for noCP then.

SergeantPink

Shields are also instantly reset to full every recast so even at 1% health your shields will still absorb as much damage as if you had 100% health. If you're at the max 33,100 Resistance cap as a Stamina user and have 1% health left you're dead if you take any damage at all.

This.

It’s not stamina users can spam vigor in pressing situations to avoid damage. Stamina has to dodge roll, cast vigor, forward momentum or shuffle and sprint out of line of sight in order to survive. except for night blade who can just cloak out....

As I said before the issue is the ability of sorcs being to shield and face tank. They don’t have to worry about range or kite even though they are considered a ranged class/build

Waffennacht

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

Bastion stacks with no other CP, shattering blows stacks with like 2 others

Bastion stacks with all damage reduction CP and increased Resistances because of the way shields work. If you take 15% less physical damage because of CP then your shield takes 15% less damage from physical attacks.

All damage reduction is subject to deminishing returns, especially in CP. Meaning, unlike damage, you still are limited when modifying Shields.

So when I say stack, I was thinking about how they actually get better rather than worse, as it does with damage reduction

The-Baconator

Daus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Considering the fact that CP adds +20% max magicka I would argue that damage shields already have an innate buff.

Heals are also buffed with that 20% max magicka. What are you even talking about. Should we make heals not affected by mending and vitality now?

Its really not that hard to understand. Bastion is countered by shattering blows and thats the end of it. The CP system is completely irrelevant with the major/minor buff system. Shields cannot be debuffed through any major/minor debuff because they also cant be buffed through any major/minor buff.

Yes but the strength of heals aren't increased by 20% with 20% more magicka. The strength of shields however are.

And what does that mean at the end of the day if shields are balanced to be competitive with that bonus in mind? I don't know how anyone could argue that anything beyond hardened + harness stacking against another mag build is even close to over performing atm. Letting defiles reduce shields would butcher sorc even more in the one area in which they are already the weakest.

Waffennacht

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Twohothardware

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

Waffennacht

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

That same increase benefits stamina, damage, etc

hakan

he is obviously trolling lol @:every s(alt)orc

DuskMarine

boaz733 wrote: »

this should help balance the game,
also change the cp tree accourdinly to increase the effect.

so if you want it to be less op make shields less broken win win situation. you gotta give up something to see something else get it as well brother.

Kikke

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

Uhm, no. They changed how the health / stamina / magica gain from CP works. Currently and it has for a while, it stops at 300cp. so does not matter if you have 750cp. You ONLY get health / stam / mag for the first 300.

And with summerset Stamina and any other class could also use 2h weps for 2 slots. nothing special there.
Also, did you know that stacking only mag to get 50k is a huge dps loss for said sorc. Right?
Most sorcs run around with 35-40k mag. Just sayin.

So stop spreading lies please? While dmg gets higher and higher, shields gets left alone, and is quickly turning into the games weakest defense ingame.

Kikke

DuskMarine wrote: »

boaz733 wrote: »

this should help balance the game,
also change the cp tree accourdinly to increase the effect.

so if you want it to be less op make shields less broken win win situation. you gotta give up something to see something else get it as well brother.

shields are not broken. It's been proven over and over that only scrubs cannot kill a shielded player. So this is a L2P issue, and not a balance issue.

usmguy1234

I'm ok with getting rid of shields if they also get rid of cloak... also make major defile make it to where nightblades can't go into stealth for the entire duration.

IZZEFlameLash

The fact that we are even discussing about shield strength is just... omg... is this post-IC drop all over again?

Twohothardware

kikkehs wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

Uhm, no. They changed how the health / stamina / magica gain from CP works. Currently and it has for a while, it stops at 300cp. so does not matter if you have 750cp. You ONLY get health / stam / mag for the first 300.

And with summerset Stamina and any other class could also use 2h weps for 2 slots. nothing special there.
Also, did you know that stacking only mag to get 50k is a huge dps loss for said sorc. Right?
Most sorcs run around with 35-40k mag. Just sayin.

So stop spreading lies please? While dmg gets higher and higher, shields gets left alone, and is quickly turning into the games weakest defense ingame.

2 Handed was terrible before the Summerset update and still is for anything other than Nightblade that relies on it's own class spammable Surprise Attack instead of Dizzying Swing. Duel Wield is the choice completely for PvE and mostly for PvP as well so the Summerset change made little difference in overall damage for Stamina. They also nerfed light/heavy attack damage with 2 Handed. The same cannot be said for Staves counting as 2 pieces or the buff light/heavy attack damage Staves got on top of it.

You're also wrong about stacking 45-50K+ Magicka being a huge dps loss. In PvE builds yes but in PvP the difference in damage is negligible while your shields are what is huge. And I don't even know what to say to your opinion that shields are quickly turning into the games weakest defense.

Feanor

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

That’s wrong. You don’t gain stat pools after CP 300.

IZZEFlameLash

Twohothardware wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

Uhm, no. They changed how the health / stamina / magica gain from CP works. Currently and it has for a while, it stops at 300cp. so does not matter if you have 750cp. You ONLY get health / stam / mag for the first 300.

And with summerset Stamina and any other class could also use 2h weps for 2 slots. nothing special there.
Also, did you know that stacking only mag to get 50k is a huge dps loss for said sorc. Right?
Most sorcs run around with 35-40k mag. Just sayin.

So stop spreading lies please? While dmg gets higher and higher, shields gets left alone, and is quickly turning into the games weakest defense ingame.

2 Handed was terrible before the Summerset update and still is for anything other than Nightblade that relies on it's own class spammable Surprise Attack instead of Dizzying Swing. Duel Wield is the choice completely for PvE and mostly for PvP as well so the Summerset change made little difference in overall damage for Stamina. They also nerfed light/heavy attack damage with 2 Handed. The same cannot be said for Staves counting as 2 pieces or the buff light/heavy attack damage Staves got on top of it.

You're also wrong about stacking 45-50K+ Magicka being a huge dps loss. In PvE builds yes but in PvP the difference in damage is negligible while your shields are what is huge. And I don't even know what to say to your opinion that shields are quickly turning into the games weakest defense.

Stacking max stat of any kind have diminishing return, and I believe much more severe ones at that than stacking 4~6k SD/WD.

pieratsos

@Twohothardware

Just a simple question. Do you actually believe that shields should be affected by major defile?

pieratsos

Daus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If they make buffs apply to shields too sure. That way shields require some investments to counter the counter as healing does. But doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Considering the fact that CP adds +20% max magicka I would argue that damage shields already have an innate buff.

Heals are also buffed with that 20% max magicka. What are you even talking about. Should we make heals not affected by mending and vitality now?

Its really not that hard to understand. Bastion is countered by shattering blows and thats the end of it. The CP system is completely irrelevant with the major/minor buff system. Shields cannot be debuffed through any major/minor debuff because they also cant be buffed through any major/minor buff.

Yes but the strength of heals aren't increased by 20% with 20% more magicka. The strength of shields however are.

And more max stats give you more dmg which counteracts the bigger shields. Whats ur point. Are you seriously saying that scaling issues is a reason for shields to be affected by a debuff which is irrelevant with the CP system ? Or do you actually believe that shields being affected by defile would make shields balanced?

Galarthor

Twohothardware wrote: »

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

First of all, most sorcs in pvp run somewhere between 35k and 40k max magicka.
Second, you basically provide the counter argument to your argument complaining about shields not suffering from penetration: The shield size already takes that into account. Yet you are complaining about it.
Third, dodge roll is far more pontent than shields. You can see magicka users dodge rolling when they are under a lot of pressure. If shields were superior they would use shields. Also if shields were so great, you would see stamina users using shields instead of magicka users dodging. The only reason magicka builds don't dodge more is b/c of their limited stamina pool. Sure mag builds could increase their stamina pool, but that would effectively make the stamina builds ...

Twohothardware wrote: »

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Well that of course depends on the math behind it. But you perform a 1:1 comparision. That is 1 attack ability vs 1 shield casted. This, however, is wrong. You have to look at it based on the whole rotation / cycle. Shields are meant to absorb the damage of more than 1 attack (even though they often don't anymore) b/c otherwise the shield user will never be able to use an offensive ability. So the multiplier of both the Bastion CP and the Shattering Blow CP affect the whole side of their respecitve equation, not just a single variable on that side.

Here is a simple example so you can understand it better. Assume that it takes 1.5 attacks to bring down 1 shield, i.e. the damage dealt by 1.5 attacks equals the size of 1 shield. To make that easier for you to visualize, let's multiply those numbers by 2 (i.e. 2 full cycles instead of just 1) so we obtain intergers. The equation the looks as follows without CP:

3*DPS = 2*SD

Now we introduce CPs: (Yes I know the brackets aren't necessary, but I want to make easily understandable as possible):

CP1*(3*DPS) = CP2*(2*SD)

Of course it now depends on the values CP1 and CP2 which side is larger, i.e. which effect is stronger. However, for this to remain an equation CP1 must equal CP2. And if we look at the size of Bastion and Shattering Blow then we can see that this is given ... if you actually invest the points into shattering blows that is.

So the added strength of the shields is gone. The damage remains increased via CP, and the additional mitigation through the CP system is lower than the damage increase due to the fact that you can specialize your offensive CPs but have to diversify your defensive CPs (see above).

Funny thing is:
Dodge roll, unlike heals and shields, doesnt even have to increase it's effectiveness in the CP environment. A 100% mitigation always negates all damage, no matter its size. That leaves them with more CP to put into the other mitigation CPs, further increasing their advantage over magicka users.

And it gets even better:
Not only do Dodge Rollers not have to spent CPs to adjust their defensive tool to the increased damage, no they also get a cost reduction for they already superior defensive tool .... something that is not available for heals and shields (which both have to be adjusted via CP).

Now you might argue:
But you can also indirectly increase the cost of dodge roll by reducing the regen via the Siphoner CP. Well ... that affects magicka users as well, and they CANNOT reduce their cost for shields, heals, cloak.

You stamina NBs really got it bad! We should start a charity for you guys.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

Same is true for Penetration for example. But you can still specalize way more into damage CP than into defensive CP. Here is why:

On the offensive you basically have 2 separate 2 option choices (there are more but I want to keep it simple for now):

1) Direct Damage VS DoT Damage
2) Magica Damage VS Elemental Damage

Depending on your build you will focus in 1 option each. So you will put CPs in a total of 2 stars.
HOWEVER, in the defensive trees you will have to spent CPs on all 4 stars if you don't want to be without a chance against certain builds. This is true whether there are the CPs Bastion and Shattering Blow or not.

The problem is only amplified by including the CPs for the damage of the Weapons and Penetration.

The equivalent to your argument would be that if you choose to spent CPs on increasing your shield strength then you have to sacrifice the strength of your heals.


Btw, same pointed out for Dodge Roll is also true for blocking. That's why we got so many people that can't let go of the right mouse.

brandonv516

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Defile exists cus mending and vitality exist. Shields cannot be buffed, therefore they can’t be debuffed. Next.

Bastion which boosts shields by 25%+ and escaped any nerf last year doesn't buff Shields? Healing CP was all majorly nerfed as well as sources for Major Mending which was either completely removed from the Class or reduced to only a few seconds. Befoul was also given a huge buff.

You really have no idea how CPs are working and independent of the Major/Minor buff system.

Blessed (your Healing counterpart to Bastion) and Bastion exist to counter the damage increase from CP (Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge). There are other damage reducing CPs as well, but that's due to addition damage increasing CPs such as Elemental Expert and Mighty. They are designed to cancel each other out!

The major/minor buff system is a separate system. Where you also got buffs and debuffs to counter each other. For example, Major Mending and Major Defile. Since there is no buff for Shields in this system, there is also equivalent debuff.

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Not going to get too much into this thread but this is inaccurate.

First passive of Restoration Staff says otherwise.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

And you have no idea the math behind how shields are calculated.

Blessed is not a counterpart to Bastion. Blessed affects healing for shield users the same as users that rely solely on healing, it's just not as important. MagNB's run points in Blessed because on top of shields they also rely on heals from class skills like Strife and it's one of the reasons Argonian is so ridiculously strong in PvP as a MagNB because of the 10% healing bonus. Any CP, passives, or potions that boost healing also affects Healing Ward.

The same is true vice versa and classes that rely solely on heals have a greater benefit from the Blessed CP. Classes the rely solely/mostly on shields have very little added benefit from Blessed. The overperformance of Argonians is due to their race passives and should thus be addressed there and not at the level of CPs and Buffs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Only two classes in the game, DK and Warden, even have access to Major Mending so Major Defile is not a counter to Major Mending, it is a counter to all healing. And like I said previously, Bastion is just one of the modifiers that affects shield strength.

That's true for all debuffs. They reduce the respective parameter no matter if the target got teh equivalent buff or not. Besides, as a healer you have to advantage of usually having access to purge to get rid of the debuffs. Something non-healers oftentimes don't have.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Any CP that reduces player damage taken effectively increases the size of the shield because that shield takes the same reduced damage. That is on top of the actual size increase of the shield from Bastion. And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Oh great the old "but but but ... shields can't be critted and don't take extra damage from penetration" arguement. It's not like we have been over this 100 million times. Here is a short summary for you to freshen up your memory:

1) Shields can't be critted b/c they don't cirt themselves. Heals can crit b/c the damage you take can crit. And people relying on shields ONLY have to heal when they have taken damage to their HP ... damage that can crit. So your arguement that shield users also can use heals is invalid.

2) Shields don't suffer additional damage from penetration b/c they don't have resistances. You already deal maximum damage to them.

As for your arguement that shields also benefit from the damage reduction via CP. Again, you don't understand how the CP system works. Please compare the amount of damage increasing CPs and mitigation increasing CPs. You will notice that while you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase, but you have to spread your defensive CPs over more stars. (For example, I can put 100 in Elemental Expert b/c I know I will deal elemental damage. But in the defensive trees I cannot put 100 in Elemental Defener, b/c I dont know what kind of attacks my opponent will use or rather I will have to face enemies that use elemental and enemies that use physical damage. So the Mitigation is always lower than the damage increase (except for rofl rolling NBs).

And to top it all off, there is literally a CP star that increases the amount of damage you deal against shields. This CP completely negates the effects of bastion. So the additional shield strength is gone, but the increased damage is still there.

To your first two points, it doesn't matter that shields take full damage because the size of shields have been balanced and scaled to take that into account and shields have become so large with these 45-50k+ Magicka builds that they allow the player to sustain more damage with refreshing shields than players in medium/heavy armor. Roll dodging is really the only thing that keeps Stamina users even close to shield stackers for mitigating damage.

And as to your second point I actually understand pretty well how the CP system works but I'll indulge you and use your own argument you're trying to make which doesn't in fact work. For starters, nothing is 1:1 because it is not calculated that way. Increasing your Elemental Expert damage by 15% and increasing your damage reduction with Elemental Defender 15% does not cancel each other out. Shattering Blows vs Bastion doesn't work that way either because one CP increases damage to shields while the other further increases the size of the shield, they're two entirely different numbers. It's not like Major Defile vs Major Mending.

Finally, you said that you can specialize in the kind of damage you want to increase but you have to spread your defensive CP's over more stars because you don't know what kind of attacks your opponent will use. That's not true, in the case of Shattering Blows you're having to spread your damage CP heavily into a stat that effectively does nothing against non shield stackers. You're having to take away damage against Stamina users and Magicka non shield users in order to boost damage against a MagSorc/MagNB fight.

No, they have not been adjusted for power creep. Not in the slightest. Shields still scale to Max mag the same ratio, and if you are saying the overall max CP increase doesn't increase your damage more than shield strength added, you're wrong.

Increasing Damage modifiers are additive, meaning they'll give you a consistent increase the more you stack

Mitigation damage modifiers are multiplicative, meaning they get weaker the more sources you gain. Bastion, Ele defender, etc become weaker when paired together.


Next you mention about "spreading your CP too thin" for shattering blows to be used. Well back in CP 600 something, it was proven that you could allocate 10 points into shattering blows and suffer less than a 1% dmg loss. With the CP increase you can choose to add more. Again this argument is not valid

Every time they increase CP it increases max stats a little more which includes more Max Magicka and the additional CP also allows for much more investment into both Bastion and other damage reduction trees instead of choosing between the two. Shield stackers are benefiting much more from the additional CP and power creap because Major Defile and the CP to load up on Befoul is a hard counter for healing on Stamina and non shield classes.

They also in Summerset just made Staves count as 2 set pieces which means you can run sets like Necropotence and another high Magicka set on both bars without giving up your Monster Set. They also just buffed light and heavy attack damage scaling from max magicka and stamina which means you can build for 55k+ max magicka with lower spell dmg and still put out high damage.

As to Shattering Blows 10 points is not even 5% increased damage to shields. With the size of shields now you need at least 40-50 points in Shattering Blows to make any real difference.

That same increase benefits stamina, damage, etc

@Waffennacht @Twohothardware

this has been changed over a year ago - maxCP no longer increase maxstats past 20% which is reached at 300cp - ever since this change shields become relatively weaker in relation to dmg because of item powercreep and offensive CP scaling better than defensive ones.

additionally shields suffer from itemisation limitations moreso than other skills. at this point in the game scaling purely on magica is not an advantage anymore because it severly impacts possible sets to use.
further it has a set maximum on setcombinations to utilize and past that isn´t expandable anymore (contrary to weapon/spelldmg scaling mechanics which get continuously provided with new itemsets raising their potential).