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What do you think makes WOW so "community-ish" while ESO lacks the feeling?
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.
You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.
The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.
I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.
The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.
You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.
If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.
And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.
yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.
Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.
feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.
Okay, again, you continue to speak as if your anecdotal experience is both empirical and universal—it’s neither. We all have different experiences in different games, in the end the only thing we can look at is data, such as subscription numbers (only rising in FFXIV) and completion rates (also higher than ever and you can check this out via the FFXIV lodestone and census). So contrary to whatever you’re feeling or have experienced, people ARE clearing top tier content on a regular basis using the game’s robust social tools. Any other argument falls flat because its not based upon facts or data that we have to examine. That’s all I’m saying. FFXIV (and WOW) have fantastic social tools and completion rates through using those tools. The end.
The OP asked why those games did better, socially, and I gave my reasons, which are backed up with actual data, and which you contested (without facts). And here we are. Not gonna argue with you all day about facts or logic. Believe whatever you want, but its just not supported by reality.
I guess its a matter of semantics or personal experience, but I have found nothing social about those grouping tools. personaly. in my experience they have been about as social as public transit commute. sure it makes it easier to get to places, the more robust public transit is. but you don't exactly socialize there. you just get from place to place with more convenience, no need to make friends or connections, bus will still be there as long as you buy a ticket and show up on time.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Jailbirdy✭✭✭✭✭
...from the campaign switch artist
Disclaimer: The statements and information from this account are for entertainment & informational purposes only. Any interpretation, implied or otherwise does not constitute negligence on any part of this forum posting.1 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....
What?
It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".
As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.
Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.
no. you are the one excluding the games, not the other guy.
Really if you are going to flat out lie...
I haven't excluded a single game, no one has come out with game X as an argument and I've said no you can't use that game as an example, where as the other guy decided any game which he doesn't like was "comparing apples to oranges" so didn't count.
But you feel free to quote where I've excluded a game, I won't hold my breath.
Edited by Sylosi on July 22, 2018 6:13PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....
What?
It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".
As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.
Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.
no. you are the one excluding the games, not the other guy.
Really if you are going to flat out lie...
I haven't excluded a single game, no one has come out with game X as an argument and I've said no you can't use that game as an example, where as the other guy decided any game which he doesn't like was "comparing apples to oranges" so didn't count.
But you feel free to quote where I've excluded a game, I won't hold my breath.
you made a claim, that accessible themepark MMO's have smaller populations than hardcore mmos.
the ONLY way for this claim to be in any way true is to exclude every highly successful populated accessible MMO, including THIS ONE, while simultaneously ignoring every MMO that attempted to reach hardcore audience and crashed and burned in a process.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....
What?
It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".
As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.
Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.
no. you are the one excluding the games, not the other guy.
Really if you are going to flat out lie...
I haven't excluded a single game, no one has come out with game X as an argument and I've said no you can't use that game as an example, where as the other guy decided any game which he doesn't like was "comparing apples to oranges" so didn't count.
But you feel free to quote where I've excluded a game, I won't hold my breath.
you made a claim, that accessible themepark MMO's have smaller populations than hardcore mmos.
the ONLY way for this claim to be in any way true is to exclude every highly successful populated accessible MMO, including THIS ONE, while simultaneously ignoring every MMO that attempted to reach hardcore audience and crashed and burned in a process.
LOL, if you are going to join in a conversation then read it properly, I assume the thing that is confusing you (quite why I have to guess...) is this:Nah, I'm comparing more difficult games with a larger playerbase to easier games with a smaller playerbase that shows your imagined rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases to be the nonsense it is. It is exactly because those games are more difficult and have meaningful gameplay that they have larger playerbases than MMORPGs where the gameplay (PvE) is trash tier so is mainly limited to a niche audience of Skinner Box zombies.
Now the problem is you've just jumped in on that without looking at what it is referring to, it isn't referring to hardcore MMOs, it is referring to games like those I mentioned previously in an earlier post to the guy I was responding to (CS:GO, Overwatch, DOTA 2, etc), all of which are more difficult than MMORPGs, all which have larger playerbases and it is partly down to the difficulty as to why they have larger playerbases, because it produces better gameplay than the trash that passes for gameplay in PvE in MMORPGs.Edited by Sylosi on July 22, 2018 8:44PM0 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply what split me was the Cheating and Exploiting going on in ESO.
When Zarzeer flew around and exposed it the community was strong at first to confront the issue. When i seen the results, temporary bans and ZOS being very lenient on this behaviour over the years i distanced myself with the intention it is obviously everyone against everyone now and get away with what you can get away with.1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....
What?
It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".
As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.
Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.
no. you are the one excluding the games, not the other guy.
Really if you are going to flat out lie...
I haven't excluded a single game, no one has come out with game X as an argument and I've said no you can't use that game as an example, where as the other guy decided any game which he doesn't like was "comparing apples to oranges" so didn't count.
But you feel free to quote where I've excluded a game, I won't hold my breath.
you made a claim, that accessible themepark MMO's have smaller populations than hardcore mmos.
the ONLY way for this claim to be in any way true is to exclude every highly successful populated accessible MMO, including THIS ONE, while simultaneously ignoring every MMO that attempted to reach hardcore audience and crashed and burned in a process.
LOL, if you are going to join in a conversation then read it properly, I assume the thing that is confusing you (quite why I have to guess...) is this:Nah, I'm comparing more difficult games with a larger playerbase to easier games with a smaller playerbase that shows your imagined rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases to be the nonsense it is. It is exactly because those games are more difficult and have meaningful gameplay that they have larger playerbases than MMORPGs where the gameplay (PvE) is trash tier so is mainly limited to a niche audience of Skinner Box zombies.
Now the problem is you've just jumped in on that without looking at what it is referring to, it isn't referring to hardcore MMOs, it is referring to games like those I mentioned previously in an earlier post to the guy I was responding to (CS:GO, Overwatch, DOTA 2, etc), all of which are more difficult than MMORPGs, all which have larger playerbases and it is partly down to the difficulty as to why they have larger playerbases, because it produces better gameplay than the trash that passes for gameplay in PvE in MMORPGs.
I read that and you are deliberately excluding larger easy games as well as failed harder games to CREATE A NARRATIVE YOU WANT. which was my point.
moreover. did you just... call overwatch difficult? are you serious? the whole point and the reason why overwatch is as popular as it is is that it has INCREDIBLY LOW BARRIER OF ENTRY. it was deliberately designed to be accessible even to people who don't normaly play competetive first person shooters. its literaly core design of overwatch. popularity of DOTA and other mobas lays in that they are games that allow you to jump in, play and jump out. they are far more casual friendly than traditional mmo's its also why shooters like CS:GO are generaly popular. pop in, play for half an hour, pop out.Edited by Linaleah on July 22, 2018 8:52PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WoW community feels pretty hostile and disjointed if you ask me.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.3 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I read that and you are deliberately excluding larger easy games as well as failed harder games to CREATE A NARRATIVE YOU WANT. which was my point.
I wasn't excluding anything, because I wasn't making any general claim, the person I was responding to claimed that difficult games have much smaller playerbases, I merely gave some examples to show that is an incorrect statement and then explained it is in fact a certain degree of difficulty as to why those games have a large playerbase.
So sure there are easy games with large playerbases also, I never stated any different, have you drunk a lot of wine tonight?Edited by Sylosi on July 22, 2018 9:03PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I read that and you are deliberately excluding larger easy games as well as failed harder games to CREATE A NARRATIVE YOU WANT. which was my point.
No dear, I wasn't excluding anything, because I wasn't making any general claim, the person I was responding to claimed that difficult games have much smaller playerbases, I merely gave some examples to show that is an incorrect statement and then explained it is in fact a certain degree of difficulty as to why those games have a large playerbase.
So sure there are easy games with large playerbases also, I never stated any different, have you drunk a lot of wine tonight?
that person was correct. difficult games have smaller playerbases. none of the games you claimed are difficult or hardcore - are actualy difficult or hardcore. quite the opposite. their main appeal is that they ARE accessible and casual friendly.
difficult to be best at =/= difficult to play btw.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Don't want to limit the discussion so I decided to not make a poll.
I want to say that I didn't play WOW for that long...I prefer the good graphic ESO provides and the combat controll is friendier. However, WOW always provides a community feeling and their Youtube channels are thirving, while ESO players all seem to keep to themselves.
What makes this happen?
I have several possible reasons, but I also want to hear from you guys.
1.First some personal experience: I kinda have the community feeling up until I decided to get a trader for my guild. I tried and tried to win a bid, but nope the competition is way too hard for a guild that only have friends and no donation/ raffle requirements. Then I took the advice from a successful trader guild leader and start mass expanding, then it just changed. I donno more than half of the ppl from my own guild, the guild member is just a number to me and I worked my ass off to try to get things done, and when rl kicks in, I just felt tired of all that, and stopped trying so hard, and the guild turned to a ghost town.
2.Too much crown? I can imagine the conversation:
"Ohh mate your mount/pet looks so cool! how do you got it?"
WOW: "Thanks I got it from xxxx/ xxxx /xxx several possible way to obtain different mounts and stuff"
ESO: "lol crown crate man"
Granted ESO does not have a forced sub, but still, the amount of items that can be obtained by in-game play are too few and only for high-tier players.
3.Too few community events that are just for fun. We do have some timely events, but those are ALWAYS around grinds. Hey I'm not saying they are not fun, but same thing can get bored when you have to do it several times to get a reward
4.Lack of QoL and inaccessible to the masses. Like housing, currently there is still no functions other than storage (which is only to high level crafters or rich ppl), and the price of house and recipes are not something for new players.
5.Lack of "community" Youtube channels. We only have "gameplay" ESO youtubers and "build" youtubers. No one seem to bother to create videos that are just for telling stories /RP. I donno if it's the cause or the sympton of ESO lacking community feeling, but there's that.
6.Lack of "progressing" stories. We have "Molag-Bal" arc in vanilla and IC, which do not encourge team up since most of main quest are solo instanced. We have "Three-Banner War" arc which is the main scene but have no story whatsoever, maybe except Orsinium. We have "DB & Thieves Guild" arc which have nothing to do with outside world story. And now "Triad" arc is concluded, the stories are great, but honestly, there is no impact on the world (Summerset we don't even get to see Ayrenn again)
How do you feel about this? share your opinions
I mostly agree with you. Eve was my main go to before ESO. ESO was a "break" game for me. And the community here isnt very good by any standards and its a far far cry from what i am use too in Eve where groups of people are often pretty tight knit.
I think of ESO as the solo MMO that i play with others because that is how everyone here plays. Solo. Even group content feels very much "X solo players grouped together" The highly toxic players here thrive where in other games the normal gamers push them to the fringe. Here they dominate most of the end game content meaning end game for many people ends up being about mid game.
That is what happens when you try to take a single player game and turn it into a MMO. You get a bunch of solo artists who dont even know how to use the chat system or pay attention to it mixed with a bunch of toxic elitists that get pushed out of other games. So you end up with a toxic solo game that has MMO aspects.2 -
Odnoc✭✭✭✭I’ve had a better experience in ESO than in WoW. If you’re behind, forget about finding people to group with and just quest, I recently switched from console to PC so I had to start from a clean slate and level all over again, and I’m always grouping just to quest.
Other issues you mention, the elder scrolls had well established lore and paradigms when ESO was released,I remember reading about how they didn’t want to stray and completely change the Elder Scrolls experience, so that’s why a lot of things are how they are, they just basically allowed multiple people in a single player RPG. WoW came from a RTS to an RPG so they basically had a clean slate for design. Also, with each expansion everything changes, so they don’t seem to care too much about changing their paradigms.Edited by Odnoc on July 22, 2018 9:38PM0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.
You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.
The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.
I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.
The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.
You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.
If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.
And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.
yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.
Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.
feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.
Okay, again, you continue to speak as if your anecdotal experience is both empirical and universal—it’s neither. We all have different experiences in different games, in the end the only thing we can look at is data, such as subscription numbers (only rising in FFXIV) and completion rates (also higher than ever and you can check this out via the FFXIV lodestone and census). So contrary to whatever you’re feeling or have experienced, people ARE clearing top tier content on a regular basis using the game’s robust social tools. Any other argument falls flat because its not based upon facts or data that we have to examine. That’s all I’m saying. FFXIV (and WOW) have fantastic social tools and completion rates through using those tools. The end.
The OP asked why those games did better, socially, and I gave my reasons, which are backed up with actual data, and which you contested (without facts). And here we are. Not gonna argue with you all day about facts or logic. Believe whatever you want, but its just not supported by reality.
You stated nothing of data, the lodestone and the unofficial ff14 census are poor cases of supposed data. People can and do hide their lodestone pages so numbers will never be fully accurate.
Also... i never stated all. I had a feeling this was gonna be your reply, because mine doesn't fit the narrative you want to do. Nothing i was talking about was about people completing the top tier content. Completing content isn't what makes a community a community. But how they complete it, as in work as a team. Which again i barely saw.
good MMO communities are the communities that enjoy a game, both good and bad. That come together to enjoy the game, that at the end of the day it is just people wanting to have fun. That it doesn't matter if a person is a guild mate or not you help them out.
ff14, WoW and most post WoW mmo no longer have this. I see world first races, and crude players who think the meta is the only way to play. That parser are the only way to judge of a player is good. And that even if a person has a foul attitude, if they are good at playing they "win". That "helping" is treating others like dirty till they "git gud" .
I rarely see pf used outside of doing the flavor of the week endgame. so again under utilized. Most people chat on discord as well. Like i said before, talking in dungeons or trails is this taboo thing, to the point where no one talks even when you ask questions. I can't tell you how much i tried to communicate with ppl to get no reply back.
ff14 is a ok mmo, but it does lack a community, something MMO USED to be graded on. ff14 used to have a great community winning an award for it. Then it declined with more tools for convenience. People just don;t talk with others outside their bubble. And that is a shame as tools were added and severely under used. Most ppl in df see other players as npc. And most ppl see online communities as toxic.
I mean look at the news with fall out 76, people hate/fear it simply because they assume the community will be toxic.
MMO communities used to be great because of the need ti ban together. Now with mmo going solo that is no longer the case.
edit:
heat of the moment my bad.Edited by Azuramoonstar on July 22, 2018 10:25PMLong time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.
You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.
The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.
I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.
The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.
You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.
If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.
And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.
yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.
Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.
feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.
IDK about your experience but my experience with the FFXIV community has be vastly different from your own and I've only ever played on the Famfrit server for 3-4 years. Finding people that want to do old content hasn't been extremely difficult since people still do it for Glamour purposes or the various mounts that are associated with that content and ever since the LFG tool was upgraded to be able to find players from different servers as well as the creation of the cross world linkshells, it's been a non-issue really; Hell, I even found a Static Group of players to do the current Raid tier with that is across 3 different servers and talk with them constantly thru the cross server linkshell. I completed the relic quest for 2 different classes (MNK and SCH) just recently too so even that isn't as impossible as you make it out to be either.
As for the part about starting fresh with level 1 crafting gear and how no one will craft, it is because there is NO level 1 crafting gear to make. The lowest is level 5 and you can buy that at NPCs, jewelry and all for less than 5k gold, something that you can get pretty quickly and you outlevel the gear so quickly that it's not even worth getting; it's not til you get into the ~level 10-15 range that gear starts to matter and if you supply the mats, people will often craft you whatever you need, just like in ESO.
I can't speak for Guild Halls honestly. They're mostly a vanity thing much like ESO's housing with only the workshop having any functional purpose and even then, it's a PITA to do since you need 4 crafters to be in the workshop to do pretty much ANYTHING in the workshop, short of sending out a completed airship to harvest stuff. I've also heard a lot of ERP goes on in Guild Halls and I'd rather not be involved in that.
People suffer from burn out, it happens in every game. I was burned out of FFXIV just before Heavensward dropped and I'm having a burn out again with this current Raid Tier, not sure what this has to do with the community though, it's just something that sort of happens when you're max level in everything and have done pretty much every bit of content already in a game.
Thats cool
nice to see systems get used.
But a few things. I played ff14 from 1.0 launch till a week ago with the news of the 10 slot cross role "fix". I had 25+ characters, across the NA/EU/JP datacenter, mostly looking for ppl to play with. I played 10-20 hours a day. When I try to ask questions in df runs for dungeons almost no one talks. Also look on the market board ... there is lvl 1 gathering and crafting gear a full set actually. Also famfit is a low pop server so prices are low end. Most the servers i've been on stuff was 10K-20K look up servers like goblin, exodus, sargatanas. Not all gear becomes obsolete quickly either, more so with crafting/ gathering gear lasting a good chunk of levels.
I rarely had help when i did coil with and with out cross world pf.
People never really suffered burn out till post WoW, as there was always stuff to do. It is a shame that people focus too much on their own goal instead of helping others with theres. I never got the burn out concept, more so if you run a guild and have members you should be helping out. Which is again why ff14 lacks a community. People get burn oyt and instead of helping others, they just don't play. So guilds feel dead.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Darkmage1337✭✭✭✭✭
✭Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
FFXI had one of the best MMORPG communities because of the content difficulty, haha. It really forced players to work and play together. I played FFXI from 2005 to late 2013. ESO officially released in April 2014, so that's when I jumped ship. I named my PC-NA ESO guild after Absolute Virtue (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Absolute_Virtue Trivia section). Apparently FFXI is still going today and became 'a single-player MMO' with NPCs that now follow you around, lol. The Seekers of Adoulin expansion was fun, after Abyssea, but I never completed all of the content there since all my friends had left the game already. I never touched FF14 though, and probably never will. I'd rather have an FF11 2.0 revamped/remastered version, lol.
FFXI had a great community, players actually helped each other, and external websites and guides online were actually up to date and very detailed, unlike for ESO. FFXIclopedia was amazing, lol.Edited by Darkmage1337 on July 22, 2018 11:46PMESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.1 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Darkmage1337 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
FFXI had one of the best MMORPG communities because of the content difficulty, haha. It really forced players to work and play together. I played FFXI from 2005 to late 2013. ESO officially released in April 2014, so that's when I jumped ship. I named my PC-NA ESO guild after Absolute Virtue (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Absolute_Virtue Trivia section). Apparently FFXI is still going today and became 'a single-player MMO' with NPCs that now follow you around, lol. The Seekers of Adoulin expansion was fun, after Abyssea, but I never completed all of the content there since all my friends had left the game already. I never touched FF14 though, and probably never will. I'd rather have an FF11 2.0 revamped/remastered version, lol.
FFXI had a great community, players actually helped each other, and external websites and guides online were actually up to date and very detailed, unlike for ESO. FFXIclopedia was amazing, lol.
ya like i said it required you to team up, where mmo no longer do this. Its like ppl join mmo to play solo..
And ya i missed that. I play eso on and off because i am overwhelmed by some systems, yet there are not a lot of good guides for me. I have add/autism so i need specific way of teaching to learn.
And ya i jump ship after abyssea, mostly because my 360 died (again) and i had no way to get a new one. By the time i got into a position to play they shut down the console version.
soberdwarf a youtuber i ran across did a cool doc on how the difficaulty of ff11 is the reason it had a community, and how newer mmo with the solo friendly, have next to no community.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.
Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.
When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.Peekachu99 wrote: »It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.
I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.
Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.
FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.
Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.
I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.
played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.
There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.
ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.
tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.
Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.
Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.
You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.
The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.
I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.
The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.
You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.
If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.
And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.
yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.
Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.
feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.
Okay, again, you continue to speak as if your anecdotal experience is both empirical and universal—it’s neither. We all have different experiences in different games, in the end the only thing we can look at is data, such as subscription numbers (only rising in FFXIV) and completion rates (also higher than ever and you can check this out via the FFXIV lodestone and census). So contrary to whatever you’re feeling or have experienced, people ARE clearing top tier content on a regular basis using the game’s robust social tools. Any other argument falls flat because its not based upon facts or data that we have to examine. That’s all I’m saying. FFXIV (and WOW) have fantastic social tools and completion rates through using those tools. The end.
The OP asked why those games did better, socially, and I gave my reasons, which are backed up with actual data, and which you contested (without facts). And here we are. Not gonna argue with you all day about facts or logic. Believe whatever you want, but its just not supported by reality.
I guess its a matter of semantics or personal experience, but I have found nothing social about those grouping tools. personaly. in my experience they have been about as social as public transit commute. sure it makes it easier to get to places, the more robust public transit is. but you don't exactly socialize there. you just get from place to place with more convenience, no need to make friends or connections, bus will still be there as long as you buy a ticket and show up on time.
not to mention ff14 had a raid tier that broke the raid community. that was funny to watch.
Also lets look at the raid community... people treat it like jobs by having interviews, use of third party tools and sites during said interviews and kicking people out of the group if stuff not working out. Instead of helping the player get better. People see teaching as babying and that it ids the players responsibility to google ff14 yet give no tips on what to search for or is reliable. Even the novice network is a cesspool. And let us not forget the lvl 50 story end dungeons castrum and praetoriam.
i remember the shi show over Cut scenes... new players were never warned of it, and treated like crap for wanting to watch them. And when they get displeased about their treatment and vent of the forums, they are further harassed on the forums saying you are wasting other peoples times and they should be lucky to even do the content. And then the shi show when SE made the 2 dungeons cs a forced watch for all players.
All people did was complain during runs bad mouthing new players. Blaming them for wasting their time, and what was a fun finale to the base ARR story, is now a cesspool of negativity. every run i did after the change was just filled with bad attitudes.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Mettaricana wrote: »Wow was toxic neckbeards that either assimilate with other toxic neckbeards or become more toxic neckbeards with their own agenda. So eother ended up with no life number crunchers clustered in a town trying to out crunch eachother like a status symbol.
Eso almost everyone came over from the skyrim bandwagon hence a huge portion of bad builds and clueless players trying to solo content on their irrelevant skyrim build who either adapt to eso ways or rage quits and we never see them again. other portion are buncha casuals that pop in and out for new content who vanish once they finished the content so no social from them and lastly qe got the eso elites who keep so hard to themselves spamming trials and guild /alliance exclusivity we never heard or see them except on leader boards so also a social minority.
Overall wow is a toxic endgame fest social gathering.
Eso is a spread thin ghost town of people avoiding eachother.
What about the portion of eso players that are vets to TES and wanted an MMO version since trying mmo?
i'm part of that group, been a TES fan since morrowind and after discovering the mmo i wanted to see an mmo tes.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »Knootewoot wrote: »I loved the Starwars Galaxies community the best. People would sit in my camp and share their adventures with me, or we went on a roadtrip to a hidden cave.
Vanguard was also very good community wise and so was Ryzom.
I think themepark orientated mmo's which are mostly solo stuff have a lesser community (because who needs a community when you can solo 90% of the game), whereas difficult mmo's where you need groups, or sandbox mmo's which rely on an active community the community seems stronger.
At least that is what my experience is and i played a lot of mmo's. Of course the game is what you make of it, and i think the community was great in the beginning in ESO. Maybe i feel left out because most of my (ingame) friends left the game already and i find it hard to make new.
this is 100% true. ff11 was a sand box mmo, that you needed to group up. And had a good community, I remember my first few days in ff11. Meeting a galka monk who showed me around windurst. Even ff14 1.0 had a decent community even though the game sucked, people did their best to support it while the game was remade. And the "end if an era" events really brought people together like the famous goobue wall of ul'dah.
I barely remember my time in ff14 as nothing sticks out, and what does stick out was a very negative experience i had as a newbie tank. Same with WoW I played on and off for 2 years, back in wrath and cata, and only recall getting left in a dungeon after people got loot. And then starting the game, and 5 ppl ganging up on me in 5 min calling me a "lady of the evening" and me getting temp ban for asking how to report it on forums, simple because i said the word after the forum harassed me.
Key words there are "even if the game sucked".
People are under the impression that difficult games breed good communities. They breed dependant communities with much smaller playerbases. Important distinction.
they do, watch a few docs on the subject. The reason most post WoW mmo have no community is because there is 0 need to make friends. Pre wow mmo required it to play. Most content required a party, and there was no lfg outside asking for one, or building one asking for other players.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭one of the major reasons wow blew up the way it did despite horrible, buggy barely playable launch? was becasue it was the first MMo at the time to offer full fledged casual/solo mmo experience. it was solo friendly from the start. and nowadays? its even more so. you can completely and utterly avoid being guilded and/or making friends in that game while playing for YEARS. even group content doesn't require actual community. world content can easily be overleveled/overgeared and raids/dungeons are auto puggable.
I agree and wish every game was this way. I love the huge worlds and play options, but I want it to be optional to actually socialize.
Forcing people to get together is always a disaster. We don't like it unless we are willing, and no that doesn't mean we are willing automatically by downloading and playing the game. The developers of many games just forget this fact of human nature.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »one of the major reasons wow blew up the way it did despite horrible, buggy barely playable launch? was becasue it was the first MMo at the time to offer full fledged casual/solo mmo experience. it was solo friendly from the start. and nowadays? its even more so. you can completely and utterly avoid being guilded and/or making friends in that game while playing for YEARS. even group content doesn't require actual community. world content can easily be overleveled/overgeared and raids/dungeons are auto puggable.
I agree and wish every game was this way. I love the huge worlds and play options, but I want it to be optional to actually socialize.
Forcing people to get together is always a disaster. We don't like it unless we are willing, and no that doesn't mean we are willing automatically by downloading and playing the game. The developers of many games just forget this fact of human nature.
ff11 was a game that forced people to group up, had one of the best community in mmo, and still going. Yes it more solo friendly now but it wasn't always.
a lot of people didn't like how WoW changed the genre into a solo direction. communities happen when a need arises. If you don't need a community there is no point. Which is a problem in MMO the multiplayer aspect is becoming non existent. And that is a bit sad, as ff11 was my fav mmo. I liked that it forced you to meet people.
I have autism, and ff11 helped in my social skills because it forced me communicate.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Deyirn✭✭✭Retail WoW isn't built around community either - as soon as they added Random Dungeon Finder, the game became single player with other single players being grouped to do a dungeon, they don't even have to talk to each other.
ESO is the same in this aspect, although I can't see it any other way. If they changed it so people have to travel to the dungeon entrance and beg others for a group, that will cause many players to simply quit.
It's good for games to force you to interact with others, but the bottom line is that antisocial/shy people will keep to themselves and social people will be social in the most solo-friendly games.0 -
Uviryth✭✭✭✭✭ESO was Community-Unfriendly from the very beginning.
At start there wherent even Nameplates. You literally couldnt identify other players unless you hovered over them.
It still doesnt have an auction house, only hundreds of little vendors, 90% of which are so out of the way no one uses them (thanks to "Loading Screen Online" no one wants to switch zones just to shop).
Plus Dungeons are veeeeeeeeeeeryyyyyyyyyy PUGunfriendly.1 -
Jimmy✭✭✭✭✭The answer to this question is simple. ESO is a branch of the Elder Scrolls Universe, more specifically Elder Scrolls games which for decades have been single player games. The majority of gamers in ESO came here with roots in single player Elder Scrolls games. And these gamers continue to "solo" or "keep to themselves" in this game just like in the single player games.
So, to ask what's the difference between the ESO and WOW communities, its simply the mindset of the ES single player demographic of gamers that ESO has compared to the more traditional MMO demographic of WOW. Plain and simple.0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence effect is what I think is in play here. There are a number of thriving streamers for ESO, may not be where you was looking.
I do think that ZOS should have a either a pinned locked message with the list of current stream team members that you can click to find them. Yeah they did one when they first announced and let it get buried. Much less update it. Or they need a tab on their web site for it as it is free advertising for them to have someone check out the game through a streamer. Been in several streams that people said that is what they where doing and the streamer sold them on the game.
Communities are what people make of them. We also all do not agree on what should or should not be in them. I ask the OP if you are looking at the comparison equally or through the rosy glasses of nostalgia?0 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So you’re saying we need our version of the nose picker asmondgold?I definitely think the YouTube side of things is seriously lacking in ESO. The content that gets put out is so amateurish compared to other games.
The internet. So many guides and info is legit from like 2014/15 it's so outdated.
ZOS? The whole of the console community is pushed to the side when it comes to ZOS. They never include them in anything, release DLC weeks later after the hype and spoilers have all been released, twitch drops don't work for them etc etc the community seems exclusive to PC
And maybe the final one being the ignorance of some players who think the community is great when really is quite toxic.
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Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
✭GarnetFire17 wrote: »Both WOW and ESO derive from single-player precursor games, but the Warcraft games were much more faction-oriented while TES games are laser-focused on the individual hero. You still have diehards complaining that ESO is too “group focused” and not a “real” TES game.
ESO is as much a "real" TES games as Octoberfest outside of Munich, Germany is "real" Octoberfest - there is nothing like the original - and ESO is just TES-themed, but as less the real thing as Octoberfest outside of Munich would be real Octoberfest.
And too group focused is correct as well - most of the *** changes to the combat systems are due to pvp.
I disagree, it is a real TES game. The single player experience is not as immersive but it is still pretty good and on par for the series. And it there is an MMO side to it as well. Not sure why anyone insists it has to be all multiplayer or all the way singleplayer friendly to be good. Not saying it could be a better but it's enjoyable at every level.
And that there is the problem. Too many people want to play ESO like it’s Skyrim. It’s a mmorpg.0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haashhtaag wrote: »And that there is the problem. Too many people want to play ESO like it’s Skyrim. It’s a mmorpg.
Eh. Most MMOs with decent-sized playerbases these days, seem to have a good % of 'solo' players and plenty of 'solo' content for them. (because Moar Customers! = Moar Money!)
I certainly played WoW that way a decade ago, and there's apparently even more I could do now.
Edited by Kiralyn2000 on November 7, 2018 4:04PM0