What do you think makes WOW so "community-ish" while ESO lacks the feeling?

Ackwalan

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

The Sunday threads.

But it is Saturday.

Zipadeedoodah

I have the exact opposite feeling. In WoW, the community always felt so divided and extremely hostile (I was on Kil'Jaeden). In ESO, I often find players willing to share advice and help with tackling difficult content. I suppose in the end all experiences are rather subjective, as no two players deal with the exact same members of the community, but on a whole, my personal experience with the ESO community has been primarily positive. There are always a few trolls, but I don't run into them as often as I did in WoW.

Silver_Strider

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak of the WoW community but the FFXIV community and I got to say, the ESO community is really lacking.
I love watching any of the videos that people post on Youtube that are just purely for entertainment purposes (Where's ESO's answer to things like Leroy Jenkins on WoW or Mr. Face on FFXIV?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pIRo_ZAzls[/vid]

When the ESO community can pull off something even remotely close to that, then I'll be impressed.

Have you never heard of @Kevduit ? His videos are all about entertainment rather than BIS build videos or whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ1-zoVlWzE

1 player is hardly a community effort.

Tandor

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

Don't want to limit the discussion so I decided to not make a poll.

I want to say that I didn't play WOW for that long...I prefer the good graphic ESO provides and the combat controll is friendier. However, WOW always provides a community feeling and their Youtube channels are thirving, while ESO players all seem to keep to themselves.

What makes this happen?

I have several possible reasons, but I also want to hear from you guys.

1.First some personal experience: I kinda have the community feeling up until I decided to get a trader for my guild. I tried and tried to win a bid, but nope the competition is way too hard for a guild that only have friends and no donation/ raffle requirements. Then I took the advice from a successful trader guild leader and start mass expanding, then it just changed. I donno more than half of the ppl from my own guild, the guild member is just a number to me and I worked my ass off to try to get things done, and when rl kicks in, I just felt tired of all that, and stopped trying so hard, and the guild turned to a ghost town.

2.Too much crown? I can imagine the conversation:
"Ohh mate your mount/pet looks so cool! how do you got it?"
WOW: "Thanks I got it from xxxx/ xxxx /xxx several possible way to obtain different mounts and stuff"
ESO: "lol crown crate man"
Granted ESO does not have a forced sub, but still, the amount of items that can be obtained by in-game play are too few and only for high-tier players.

3.Too few community events that are just for fun. We do have some timely events, but those are ALWAYS around grinds. Hey I'm not saying they are not fun, but same thing can get bored when you have to do it several times to get a reward

4.Lack of QoL and inaccessible to the masses. Like housing, currently there is still no functions other than storage (which is only to high level crafters or rich ppl), and the price of house and recipes are not something for new players.

5.Lack of "community" Youtube channels. We only have "gameplay" ESO youtubers and "build" youtubers. No one seem to bother to create videos that are just for telling stories /RP. I donno if it's the cause or the sympton of ESO lacking community feeling, but there's that.

6.Lack of "progressing" stories. We have "Molag-Bal" arc in vanilla and IC, which do not encourge team up since most of main quest are solo instanced. We have "Three-Banner War" arc which is the main scene but have no story whatsoever, maybe except Orsinium. We have "DB & Thieves Guild" arc which have nothing to do with outside world story. And now "Triad" arc is concluded, the stories are great, but honestly, there is no impact on the world (Summerset we don't even get to see Ayrenn again)

How do you feel about this? share your opinions

The main reason is they began to re design the game to appeal to a single player RPG community and B2P console friendly model. the end game was based of a competitive DPS leaderboard that devalued other playstyles , Less tanking less healing more pew pew while moving and secondary utility abilities for all roles. arouund 2015 when some of the key leads left and Matt put full focus into his vision for eso it became more of a single player online experience. this type of playstyle does not foster building friendships guilds or player longevity. the game is designed to be a turn style visitors center with a gift shop (IE crown store). non of the launch guilds are here i dont think any of the guilds from post launch 2016 are here.

That's because they'd be competing for members with 100% exclusive trading guilds. Introduce a proper trading system open to all, reduce guild membership to a single guild per player (preferably faction-based), and those guilds or ones like them would quickly be re-established, and all that could be accomplished without in any way breaking the lore or immersion of the TES series. Whether you could achieve the secondary aim of making faction more important while maintaining the core principle of One Tamriel is another matter, however One Tamriel is only a PvE invention while factions have only ever really been about PvP for which purposes switching factions shouldn't be permitted anyway.

Azuramoonstar

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.

Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.

When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.

I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.

Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.

I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.

played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.

There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.

ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.

tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.

Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.

Wifeaggro13

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

Don't want to limit the discussion so I decided to not make a poll.

I want to say that I didn't play WOW for that long...I prefer the good graphic ESO provides and the combat controll is friendier. However, WOW always provides a community feeling and their Youtube channels are thirving, while ESO players all seem to keep to themselves.

What makes this happen?

I have several possible reasons, but I also want to hear from you guys.

1.First some personal experience: I kinda have the community feeling up until I decided to get a trader for my guild. I tried and tried to win a bid, but nope the competition is way too hard for a guild that only have friends and no donation/ raffle requirements. Then I took the advice from a successful trader guild leader and start mass expanding, then it just changed. I donno more than half of the ppl from my own guild, the guild member is just a number to me and I worked my ass off to try to get things done, and when rl kicks in, I just felt tired of all that, and stopped trying so hard, and the guild turned to a ghost town.

2.Too much crown? I can imagine the conversation:
"Ohh mate your mount/pet looks so cool! how do you got it?"
WOW: "Thanks I got it from xxxx/ xxxx /xxx several possible way to obtain different mounts and stuff"
ESO: "lol crown crate man"
Granted ESO does not have a forced sub, but still, the amount of items that can be obtained by in-game play are too few and only for high-tier players.

3.Too few community events that are just for fun. We do have some timely events, but those are ALWAYS around grinds. Hey I'm not saying they are not fun, but same thing can get bored when you have to do it several times to get a reward

4.Lack of QoL and inaccessible to the masses. Like housing, currently there is still no functions other than storage (which is only to high level crafters or rich ppl), and the price of house and recipes are not something for new players.

5.Lack of "community" Youtube channels. We only have "gameplay" ESO youtubers and "build" youtubers. No one seem to bother to create videos that are just for telling stories /RP. I donno if it's the cause or the sympton of ESO lacking community feeling, but there's that.

6.Lack of "progressing" stories. We have "Molag-Bal" arc in vanilla and IC, which do not encourge team up since most of main quest are solo instanced. We have "Three-Banner War" arc which is the main scene but have no story whatsoever, maybe except Orsinium. We have "DB & Thieves Guild" arc which have nothing to do with outside world story. And now "Triad" arc is concluded, the stories are great, but honestly, there is no impact on the world (Summerset we don't even get to see Ayrenn again)

How do you feel about this? share your opinions

The main reason is they began to re design the game to appeal to a single player RPG community and B2P console friendly model. the end game was based of a competitive DPS leaderboard that devalued other playstyles , Less tanking less healing more pew pew while moving and secondary utility abilities for all roles. arouund 2015 when some of the key leads left and Matt put full focus into his vision for eso it became more of a single player online experience. this type of playstyle does not foster building friendships guilds or player longevity. the game is designed to be a turn style visitors center with a gift shop (IE crown store). non of the launch guilds are here i dont think any of the guilds from post launch 2016 are here.

That's because they'd be competing for members with 100% exclusive trading guilds. Introduce a proper trading system open to all, reduce guild membership to a single guild per player (preferably faction-based), and those guilds or ones like them would quickly be re-established, and all that could be accomplished without in any way breaking the lore or immersion of the TES series. Whether you could achieve the secondary aim of making faction more important while maintaining the core principle of One Tamriel is another matter, however One Tamriel is only a PvE invention while factions have only ever really been about PvP for which purposes switching factions shouldn't be permitted anyway.

this is only part of the issue. and using a traditional community system would be a better idea with a true auction house. but your preaching to the choir with me . early on many of us saw the bad logic in ZOS design for community longevity.

Zardayne

Aliyavana wrote: »

wow has a faction pride that eso doesn't. Eso faction pride cant survive much as long as faction loyalty campaigns don't exist

I'd agree with this. Daoc had it, Warhammer had it, WoW had it, ESO not so much...

Mettaricana

Wow was toxic neckbeards that either assimilate with other toxic neckbeards or become more toxic neckbeards with their own agenda. So eother ended up with no life number crunchers clustered in a town trying to out crunch eachother like a status symbol.

Eso almost everyone came over from the skyrim bandwagon hence a huge portion of bad builds and clueless players trying to solo content on their irrelevant skyrim build who either adapt to eso ways or rage quits and we never see them again. other portion are buncha casuals that pop in and out for new content who vanish once they finished the content so no social from them and lastly qe got the eso elites who keep so hard to themselves spamming trials and guild /alliance exclusivity we never heard or see them except on leader boards so also a social minority.

Overall wow is a toxic endgame fest social gathering.

Eso is a spread thin ghost town of people avoiding eachother.

Lysette

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I do not PvP so i feel no Faction pride tbh..

Never played WoW hundreds of mmorpgs but WoW was never one of them.

Its hard to have Faction Pride when I can't even remember why heck they are all fighting each other. As far as I know just want to win to put an emperor on the throne, so I think they are all basically fighting for the same reason and for nothing really inspiring.

This and no one outside of Cyrrodil even cares - well, some NPC do, but even among those the war is mostly a non-issue.

To me that faction war was a good idea until they announced the release of the game - imperial edition and any race, any faction - those basically broke my interest into this war completely. Why fight over a non-issue?- And it is a non-issue everywhere but in Cyrrodil.

Linaleah

from personal experience of someone who played WoW for close to a decade... wow doesn't have much of a overall community anymore and it hasn't had one since they made cross server groupfinder. there are smaller communities that occasionally pop up here and there and sometimes servers attempt to organize something, but for the most part - its every man for themselves. and I see people keep mentioning how solo oriented ESO is and how WoW.. isn't. ummm. UMMM. have you actualy PLAYED the game? WoW is THE most solo oriented MMO I have EVER played. YES that includes ESO.

one of the major reasons wow blew up the way it did despite horrible, buggy barely playable launch? was becasue it was the first MMo at the time to offer full fledged casual/solo mmo experience. it was solo friendly from the start. and nowadays? its even more so. you can completely and utterly avoid being guilded and/or making friends in that game while playing for YEARS. even group content doesn't require actual community. world content can easily be overleveled/overgeared and raids/dungeons are auto puggable. of course if you want to play at higher difficulty, you gotta start looking for better solutions, but... at the very bottom level? you can do everything without actualy interacting with anyone.

last 3 expansions I've been playing wow on and off almost completely on my own. I had a guild at the tail end of warlords for a few months, but that didn't last and the rest of the time, it was pretty much all solo all the time. in ESO... I lasted a few months on my own before I went looking for guild, and started making friends.

in my experience, nowadays, ESO community is a lot more of a community than whatever it is happening in wow with its occasional small pockets here and there.

P.S. the fact that blizzard keeps trying to add community oriented tools doesn't change the fact that the cat is out of the bag and players keep finding ways to automate and impersonalize grouping

Mystrius_Archaion

Peekachu99 wrote: »

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

City of Heroes had this also as well as custom chat channels for player sto join that everyone could see across the world. There even was a trade chat channel.

Why do the older games, dead or otherwise, all have better ideas and better implemented than the new games that just seem built around their cash shops and loot grinds?

Knootewoot

I loved the Starwars Galaxies community the best. People would sit in my camp and share their adventures with me, or we went on a roadtrip to a hidden cave.
Vanguard was also very good community wise and so was Ryzom.

I think themepark orientated mmo's which are mostly solo stuff have a lesser community (because who needs a community when you can solo 90% of the game), whereas difficult mmo's where you need groups, or sandbox mmo's which rely on an active community the community seems stronger.

At least that is what my experience is and i played a lot of mmo's. Of course the game is what you make of it, and i think the community was great in the beginning in ESO. Maybe i feel left out because most of my (ingame) friends left the game already and i find it hard to make new.

swippy

most people i run into (away from this game and forum) who mention WoW seem embarrassed, like they're "admitting" they ever played it.

every time i come across ESO players they are proud and enthusiastic.

i'm not gonna speculate right now.

Doctordarkspawn

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

Don't want to limit the discussion so I decided to not make a poll.

I want to say that I didn't play WOW for that long...I prefer the good graphic ESO provides and the combat controll is friendier. However, WOW always provides a community feeling and their Youtube channels are thirving, while ESO players all seem to keep to themselves.

What makes this happen?

I have several possible reasons, but I also want to hear from you guys.

1.First some personal experience: I kinda have the community feeling up until I decided to get a trader for my guild. I tried and tried to win a bid, but nope the competition is way too hard for a guild that only have friends and no donation/ raffle requirements. Then I took the advice from a successful trader guild leader and start mass expanding, then it just changed. I donno more than half of the ppl from my own guild, the guild member is just a number to me and I worked my ass off to try to get things done, and when rl kicks in, I just felt tired of all that, and stopped trying so hard, and the guild turned to a ghost town.

2.Too much crown? I can imagine the conversation:
"Ohh mate your mount/pet looks so cool! how do you got it?"
WOW: "Thanks I got it from xxxx/ xxxx /xxx several possible way to obtain different mounts and stuff"
ESO: "lol crown crate man"
Granted ESO does not have a forced sub, but still, the amount of items that can be obtained by in-game play are too few and only for high-tier players.

3.Too few community events that are just for fun. We do have some timely events, but those are ALWAYS around grinds. Hey I'm not saying they are not fun, but same thing can get bored when you have to do it several times to get a reward

4.Lack of QoL and inaccessible to the masses. Like housing, currently there is still no functions other than storage (which is only to high level crafters or rich ppl), and the price of house and recipes are not something for new players.

5.Lack of "community" Youtube channels. We only have "gameplay" ESO youtubers and "build" youtubers. No one seem to bother to create videos that are just for telling stories /RP. I donno if it's the cause or the sympton of ESO lacking community feeling, but there's that.

6.Lack of "progressing" stories. We have "Molag-Bal" arc in vanilla and IC, which do not encourge team up since most of main quest are solo instanced. We have "Three-Banner War" arc which is the main scene but have no story whatsoever, maybe except Orsinium. We have "DB & Thieves Guild" arc which have nothing to do with outside world story. And now "Triad" arc is concluded, the stories are great, but honestly, there is no impact on the world (Summerset we don't even get to see Ayrenn again)

How do you feel about this? share your opinions

The main reason is they began to re design the game to appeal to a single player RPG community and B2P console friendly model. the end game was based of a competitive DPS leaderboard that devalued other playstyles , Less tanking less healing more pew pew while moving and secondary utility abilities for all roles. arouund 2015 when some of the key leads left and Matt put full focus into his vision for eso it became more of a single player online experience. this type of playstyle does not foster building friendships guilds or player longevity. the game is designed to be a turn style visitors center with a gift shop (IE crown store). non of the launch guilds are here i dont think any of the guilds from post launch 2016 are here.

That's because they'd be competing for members with 100% exclusive trading guilds. Introduce a proper trading system open to all, reduce guild membership to a single guild per player (preferably faction-based), and those guilds or ones like them would quickly be re-established, and all that could be accomplished without in any way breaking the lore or immersion of the TES series. Whether you could achieve the secondary aim of making faction more important while maintaining the core principle of One Tamriel is another matter, however One Tamriel is only a PvE invention while factions have only ever really been about PvP for which purposes switching factions shouldn't be permitted anyway.

Ew, god no. The old guild system sucked. This game was right to abandon it from the very start, one of the few things it has done well.

Peekachu99

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.

Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.

When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.

I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.

Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.

I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.

played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.

There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.

ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.

tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.

Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.

Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.

You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.

Azuramoonstar

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.

Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.

When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.

I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.

Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.

I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.

played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.

There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.

ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.

tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.

Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.

Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.

You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.

The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.

I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.

The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.

You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.

If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.

And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.

yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.

Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.

feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.

Revi_Nightfire

We just need Scrollcon to be a thing.

Let's do this!

Azuramoonstar

Knootewoot wrote: »

I loved the Starwars Galaxies community the best. People would sit in my camp and share their adventures with me, or we went on a roadtrip to a hidden cave.
Vanguard was also very good community wise and so was Ryzom.

I think themepark orientated mmo's which are mostly solo stuff have a lesser community (because who needs a community when you can solo 90% of the game), whereas difficult mmo's where you need groups, or sandbox mmo's which rely on an active community the community seems stronger.

At least that is what my experience is and i played a lot of mmo's. Of course the game is what you make of it, and i think the community was great in the beginning in ESO. Maybe i feel left out because most of my (ingame) friends left the game already and i find it hard to make new.

this is 100% true. ff11 was a sand box mmo, that you needed to group up. And had a good community, I remember my first few days in ff11. Meeting a galka monk who showed me around windurst. Even ff14 1.0 had a decent community even though the game sucked, people did their best to support it while the game was remade. And the "end if an era" events really brought people together like the famous goobue wall of ul'dah.

I barely remember my time in ff14 as nothing sticks out, and what does stick out was a very negative experience i had as a newbie tank. Same with WoW I played on and off for 2 years, back in wrath and cata, and only recall getting left in a dungeon after people got loot. And then starting the game, and 5 ppl ganging up on me in 5 min calling me a "lady of the evening" and me getting temp ban for asking how to report it on forums, simple because i said the word after the forum harassed me.

Doctordarkspawn

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I loved the Starwars Galaxies community the best. People would sit in my camp and share their adventures with me, or we went on a roadtrip to a hidden cave.
Vanguard was also very good community wise and so was Ryzom.

I think themepark orientated mmo's which are mostly solo stuff have a lesser community (because who needs a community when you can solo 90% of the game), whereas difficult mmo's where you need groups, or sandbox mmo's which rely on an active community the community seems stronger.

At least that is what my experience is and i played a lot of mmo's. Of course the game is what you make of it, and i think the community was great in the beginning in ESO. Maybe i feel left out because most of my (ingame) friends left the game already and i find it hard to make new.

this is 100% true. ff11 was a sand box mmo, that you needed to group up. And had a good community, I remember my first few days in ff11. Meeting a galka monk who showed me around windurst. Even ff14 1.0 had a decent community even though the game sucked, people did their best to support it while the game was remade. And the "end if an era" events really brought people together like the famous goobue wall of ul'dah.

I barely remember my time in ff14 as nothing sticks out, and what does stick out was a very negative experience i had as a newbie tank. Same with WoW I played on and off for 2 years, back in wrath and cata, and only recall getting left in a dungeon after people got loot. And then starting the game, and 5 ppl ganging up on me in 5 min calling me a "lady of the evening" and me getting temp ban for asking how to report it on forums, simple because i said the word after the forum harassed me.

Key words there are "even if the game sucked".

People are under the impression that difficult games breed good communities. They breed dependant communities with much smaller playerbases. Important distinction.

Revi_Nightfire

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I loved the Starwars Galaxies community the best. People would sit in my camp and share their adventures with me, or we went on a roadtrip to a hidden cave.
Vanguard was also very good community wise and so was Ryzom.

I think themepark orientated mmo's which are mostly solo stuff have a lesser community (because who needs a community when you can solo 90% of the game), whereas difficult mmo's where you need groups, or sandbox mmo's which rely on an active community the community seems stronger.

At least that is what my experience is and i played a lot of mmo's. Of course the game is what you make of it, and i think the community was great in the beginning in ESO. Maybe i feel left out because most of my (ingame) friends left the game already and i find it hard to make new.

this is 100% true. ff11 was a sand box mmo, that you needed to group up. And had a good community, I remember my first few days in ff11. Meeting a galka monk who showed me around windurst. Even ff14 1.0 had a decent community even though the game sucked, people did their best to support it while the game was remade. And the "end if an era" events really brought people together like the famous goobue wall of ul'dah.

I barely remember my time in ff14 as nothing sticks out, and what does stick out was a very negative experience i had as a newbie tank. Same with WoW I played on and off for 2 years, back in wrath and cata, and only recall getting left in a dungeon after people got loot. And then starting the game, and 5 ppl ganging up on me in 5 min calling me a "lady of the evening" and me getting temp ban for asking how to report it on forums, simple because i said the word after the forum harassed me.

Key words there are "even if the game sucked".

People are under the impression that difficult games breed good communities. They breed dependant communities with much smaller playerbases. Important distinction.

This I Eso and I the community.

Cpt_Teemo

You haven't seen Goldshire on Stormrage have you ?

Sylosi

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

People are under the impression that difficult games breed good communities. They breed dependant communities with much smaller playerbases. Important distinction.

Reality says different, in the grand scheme of video games MMORPGs are relatively easy, relatively low skilled, CS:GO, Overwatch, DOTA 2, etc are higher skilled, more competitive, essentially more difficult, they also have larger playerbases than any MMORPG, I mean Overwatch alone has more players than every major western MMORPG put together.

Beyond that what "difficult" games breed is communities with depth, what easy games breed is shallow, superficial communities, because essentially there is nothing at stake, which is why for example EVE Online often gets cited as an example of having a better community than themepark MMORPGs.

Doctordarkspawn

Sylosi wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

People are under the impression that difficult games breed good communities. They breed dependant communities with much smaller playerbases. Important distinction.

Reality says different, in the grand scheme of video games MMORPGs are relatively easy, relatively low skilled, CS:GO, Overwatch, DOTA 2, etc are higher skilled, more competitive, essentially more difficult, they also have larger playerbases than any MMORPG, I mean Overwatch alone has more players than every major western MMORPG put together.

Beyond that what "difficult" games breed is communities with depth, what easy games breed is shallow, superficial communities, because essentially there is nothing at stake, which is why for example EVE Online often gets cited as an example of having a better community than themepark MMORPGs.

Those games you listed also have vastly different audiences. You're comparing apples to oranges, and thus every point you make on them is irrelevent.

As for 'better communities', depends on your definition. Eve? Friendlier? Somehow, I very much doubt it. It's also a PVP MMO so it's also apples to oranges.

At the end of the day this game didn't sell as a difficult game and I cant speak to the community back then but it was nonexistant when I saw it. And that at the end of the day is the core difference. The size of the community dictates it's behavior, not it's quality. Smaller communities become more inwardly possessed like small towns where everyone knows everyone. You're confusing the two qualities.

Sylosi

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

You're comparing apples to oranges, and thus every point you make on them is irrelevent.

Nah, I'm comparing more difficult games with a larger playerbase to easier games with a smaller playerbase that shows your imagined rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases to be the nonsense it is. It is exactly because those games are more difficult and have meaningful gameplay that they have larger playerbases than MMORPGs where the gameplay (PvE) is trash tier so is mainly limited to a niche audience of Skinner Box zombies.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for 'better communities', depends on your definition. Eve? Friendlier? Somehow, I very much doubt it.

Funnily enough it is more friendly in certain ways that a lot of PvE "communities" are, is it as polite, no, but then a rather superficial level of "politeness" is one of the things that is valued by shallow, superficial "communities".

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The size of the community dictates it's behavior, not it's quality. Smaller communities become more inwardly possessed like small towns where everyone knows everyone. You're confusing the two qualities.

The only one who is confused here is you, I didn't state quality dictates behaviour, I simply pointed out that your magic rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases isn't actually the case much of the time, so as a rule it is nonsense.

DanteYoda

Bare in mind Faction pride can go the other way as well.. I used to play a mmorpg called RF Online where factions couldn't even talk to each other and it bred hate, hate on levels where real life customers would want to kill each other..

You never want to go down that route, its also one of the games that made me hate PVP so much, even till today..

Linaleah

Sylosi wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

You're comparing apples to oranges, and thus every point you make on them is irrelevent.

Nah, I'm comparing more difficult games with a larger playerbase to easier games with a smaller playerbase that shows your imagined rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases to be the nonsense it is. It is exactly because those games are more difficult and have meaningful gameplay that they have larger playerbases than MMORPGs where the gameplay (PvE) is trash tier so is mainly limited to a niche audience of Skinner Box zombies.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for 'better communities', depends on your definition. Eve? Friendlier? Somehow, I very much doubt it.

Funnily enough it is more friendly in certain ways that a lot of PvE "communities" are, is it as polite, no, but then a rather superficial level of "politeness" is one of the things that is valued by shallow, superficial "communities".

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The size of the community dictates it's behavior, not it's quality. Smaller communities become more inwardly possessed like small towns where everyone knows everyone. You're confusing the two qualities.

The only one who is confused here is you, I didn't state quality dictates behaviour, I simply pointed out that your magic rule that difficult games have smaller playerbases isn't actually the case much of the time, so as a rule it is nonsense.

actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative - more difficult games tend to have smaller niche playerbases than more accessible games. to bring up wow again, its literally THE reason why WoW blew up as much as it did, despite launching in awful buggy state. they were the first game to be accessible to larger variety of players.

moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.

Sylosi

Linaleah wrote: »

actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....

What?

It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".

As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.

Linaleah wrote: »

moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.

Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.

Peekachu99

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.

Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.

When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.

I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.

Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.

I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.

played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.

There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.

ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.

tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.

Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.

Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.

You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.

The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.

I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.

The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.

You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.

If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.

And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.

yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.

Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.

feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.

Okay, again, you continue to speak as if your anecdotal experience is both empirical and universal—it’s neither. We all have different experiences in different games, in the end the only thing we can look at is data, such as subscription numbers (only rising in FFXIV) and completion rates (also higher than ever and you can check this out via the FFXIV lodestone and census). So contrary to whatever you’re feeling or have experienced, people ARE clearing top tier content on a regular basis using the game’s robust social tools. Any other argument falls flat because its not based upon facts or data that we have to examine. That’s all I’m saying. FFXIV (and WOW) have fantastic social tools and completion rates through using those tools. The end.

The OP asked why those games did better, socially, and I gave my reasons, which are backed up with actual data, and which you contested (without facts). And here we are. Not gonna argue with you all day about facts or logic. Believe whatever you want, but its just not supported by reality.

Silver_Strider

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

My first question is, WoW has a community? I played the game on and off for 2 years and my highest character was a 46 warlock. I never saw a sense of community People basically solo'ed in a group. very little group play till max level, and was not group friendly at all.

Anytime i asked for help and tips in WoW i was told to f-off.

When i play ESO i saw people helping others, like giving tips in chat, giving tips on forums. ESO is not a linear game, you can play at your own pace and still do content when you get higher up.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s clealy the social tools they offer. Same with FFXIV. A broken group finder, a terrible trading interface and shouting in zone chat to form groups is pathetic by any objective standards.

I don't agree with any More so the zone shouting. Also ff14 has zone shouting as well and stuff like that promotes a community. Too much automation in group finder kills community as people just don't talk.

Imo eso has more of a community then ff14 and WoW does. at least ppl talk in eso, and help each other out.

FFXIV has actual guild housing where people hang out, shoot the crap, use auctions and other services, play dress up, gamble, or group for retro dungeon crawls. They have an entire ZONE dedicated to fashion wars, emotes and completely optional player games. They have a fully featured and customizable interface for forming groups (automated or otherwise) across every level of content. You don’t shout across zone because you have a SERVER wide advertisement for your particular group in LFG.

Sorry, but you clearly aren’t familiar enough with their social tools to be offering critique.

I wish ESO had even a sliver of that social integration, but after four years it literally has next to nothing. Some serious Stolkholm syndrome to be claiming otherwise.

played ff14 for 5 years, and no one uses the guild houses. They buy them for show but people rarely hang out at them. Most ppl afk at end game spots and shout for groups. No one really talks, talking in a dungeon is beyond taboo and i have been berated for asking questions. Not even new player questions but stuff to make sure people are on the same page.
Gold saucer is very empty 90% of the time. And not a ton of ppl do the fashion report.

There are no auctions, but the Market board. And i honestly prefer ESO's npc bazaar over the market board. All the market board is, is what ESO has just placed on a board. Also party finder is not usable till after you beat the first dungeon, and nothing is announced server wide you just click the tab. And finding groups for past content is a crap shoot as the game updates too often so stuff becomes obsolete quickly.

ff14 automation of stuff killed what community it had. Game was better w/o Lfg as people actually talked. too much conveniences can kill a community.

tbh best community would be ff11 in its hayday due to it having limited functions. It required you to make friends, most mmo doesn't require you to make friends, and they suffer for it.

Also rule of thumb... try to ask questions before assuming people don't know what their talking about. Helps reduce the footinmouth syndrome.

Everything in this post continues to be opinion, not a stitch of fact or evidence to back up any of your claims. Show me a decline in subs or player retention to support what you’re saying. Their endgame is more hopping than ever—especially with the MH crossover, and the tools are certainly contributing to that.

You mention footinmouth, then shove yours right in.

The thread and my post had nothing to do with subs, or people quitting but a lack of community. You made a claim that people used all this social stuff, and claimed i didn't know what I was talking about as if I never played ff14.

I've been on just about every server and datacenter on ff14 including balmung(sp) and though the game has a fairly high sub count it lacks community. I rarely see people talk, help each other out. I rarely see people willing to help newbies through old content. I rarely see people helping newbies period. Most FC i been in want numbers not members and invite people in mass to have those numbers but ignore people.

The only opinion i gave what my opinion on the market board vs npc bazaar. You made claims that features exist. I was telling the truth that only a small portion use them. I mainly play MMO for their community, so i can meet people and have fun playing the game with others. I quit ff14 recently. Sub count and community are not the same things as ff11 had a sub count of 500K at peak, but had a really good community till abyssea. While WoW who at peak had like 12mil subs was known for its horrific community. People played it because it was easy to get into to.

You can try the twist the narrative, but you digging your self a hole because of the quoting. As it has proof you never brought up subs, nor did I. I just made mention that 1) i'm an ff14 vet having played on and off since launch of 1.0. and 2) the stuff you mentioned is not used as much as you think.

If you go on the ff14 forums or look up some big ff14 youtubers a lot of people are suffering from burn out because the patch es are watered down. Instead of big content patches like we got in 2.0 we got "episodic" patches that stagger content.People are getting bored and the "new" types of content has been hit/miss like not too many people liked eureka Not everyone has access to canels of uznir. heaven on high requires old content to be completed, which not everyone likes.

And old content becomes obsolete too quickly, like try being a new player and getting the old lvl 50 relic done, you got a good wait time even as a tank before the duty pops. And no guarantee you get it through pf. People only wanna do coil if it undersized, and there are some people don't wanna do.

yet in ESO people gives vamp in were wolf bites for free. I still see people do anchors, i still see people do older content. Stuff like that is rare in ff14, people always want something. heck i remember in early 2.0 when gear repair was mainly done through players... and said players wanted a huge tip to press a button, and yet people want the system back after it was taken out in favor of cheap npc.

Oh and good luck starting fresh and getting lvl 1 gathering or crafting gear, people rarely make it or it is priced at 10K+
not the case in eso, most low lvl stuff is 100g which you can get easy in 1 quest.

feel free to just state this is my opinion, but it is an opinion based on years of experiences. in WoW ESO and ff14.

IDK about your experience but my experience with the FFXIV community has be vastly different from your own and I've only ever played on the Famfrit server for 3-4 years. Finding people that want to do old content hasn't been extremely difficult since people still do it for Glamour purposes or the various mounts that are associated with that content and ever since the LFG tool was upgraded to be able to find players from different servers as well as the creation of the cross world linkshells, it's been a non-issue really; Hell, I even found a Static Group of players to do the current Raid tier with that is across 3 different servers and talk with them constantly thru the cross server linkshell. I completed the relic quest for 2 different classes (MNK and SCH) just recently too so even that isn't as impossible as you make it out to be either.

As for the part about starting fresh with level 1 crafting gear and how no one will craft, it is because there is NO level 1 crafting gear to make. The lowest is level 5 and you can buy that at NPCs, jewelry and all for less than 5k gold, something that you can get pretty quickly and you outlevel the gear so quickly that it's not even worth getting; it's not til you get into the ~level 10-15 range that gear starts to matter and if you supply the mats, people will often craft you whatever you need, just like in ESO.

I can't speak for Guild Halls honestly. They're mostly a vanity thing much like ESO's housing with only the workshop having any functional purpose and even then, it's a PITA to do since you need 4 crafters to be in the workshop to do pretty much ANYTHING in the workshop, short of sending out a completed airship to harvest stuff. I've also heard a lot of ERP goes on in Guild Halls and I'd rather not be involved in that.

People suffer from burn out, it happens in every game. I was burned out of FFXIV just before Heavensward dropped and I'm having a burn out again with this current Raid Tier, not sure what this has to do with the community though, it's just something that sort of happens when you're max level in everything and have done pretty much every bit of content already in a game.

Linaleah

Sylosi wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

actualy. as a rule when you stop arbitrarily excluding larger games just becasue they don't fit your narrative....

What?

It wasn't me trying to arbitrarily exclude games to fit their narrative, it was the other guy, many of the biggest online games in the last 10 years "fit my narrative".

As for WoW, I'd say it was more casual is the reason it succeeded at that time (plus had a playerbase from Warcraft), but then there have been plenty of MMORPGs since that have been more casual, had easier raids, etc than WoW that have not had anywhere near that level of success and many of them even have less players than EVE, so again this blanket rule that easier = larger playerbase does not bear out.

Linaleah wrote: »

moreover. Eve online is basically corporate environment without all the laws that moderate RL corporate environment. friendly? it aint. cutthroat? absolutely. this is a game where people are willing to spend YEARS on planning to completely screwing over a whole bunch of people. what a lovely community to be a part of amirite? never knowing if that person acting like your ally, could be a saboteur planning to ruin you behind your back.... so nice.

Which is part of the reason it has a depth to its community that games like this do not, because there is actually something at stake.

no. you are the one excluding the games, not the other guy. Eve online is THE biggest and the only hardcore game that can be considered successful. and its smaller that ESO, or Final fantasy. the rest of them? yeah. I mean... GW2 was doing great until it decided to cater to hardcores with heart of thorns and it almost killed them and they are STILL trying to recover from that. Wildstar had to backpedal and ease up on their hardcore leanings, but unfortunately as a new IP without built in fanbase, they just didn't have enough leverage to do so. hardcore games are niche. always have been, always will be. and their communities, well.... i guess we have a very different definition of community, let alone good community. becasue not being able to trust ANYONE? like you do in Eve? does NOT for a good community make.