Horned Dragon and Fanged Worm *Pages*, not *Chapters* - Too Much Grind?

Vaoh

Prior to the launch of the Horned Dragon and Fanged Worm styles, motif chapters granted all armor weights/similar weapons associated with whatever piece the chapter was meant to provide. If you used a Minotaur Chests chapter, you learned all three armor weights of Minotaur chests. If you used the Minotaur Swords chapter, you learned both Swords and Greatswords in the Minotaur style.

Here are all of the items you can learn in any given style:
• Head (x3)
• Shoulder (x3)
• Chest...Jerkin and Robe are separate (4x)
• Hands (x3)
• Belt (x3)
• Legs (x3)
• Feet (x3)
• Sword (x2)
• Axe (x2)
• Mace (x2)
• Dagger (x1)
• Bow (x1)
• Staff (x1)
• Shield (x1)

In total, there are 14 types of gear pieces - 14 chapters per motif. However, Horned Dragon and Fanged Worm split these chapters into their individual pages.

These two styles therefore have a total of 32 pages per style..... which means 64 pages altogether to unlock through these BG Dailies. From my experience, I average about a 20-25% drop rate on these pages. I consistently get one motif page a day from 4-5 BG Daily reward containers. Sometimes two pages if lucky (on two occasions I didn’t get a page at all though).

If I continue on the path I’m going, which is completing the BG Daily on 4-5 characters every single day, it’ll take me like two months straight of farming just to get these two styles. Maybe a bit less (or more if I skip a few days).

It seems kind of insane to me tbh. Oh and next patch (Wolfhunter) will introduce at least one new BG Daily-only motif style through the same method. If we were getting full chapters (not pages), or the pages had a 100% drop rate, or these pages could be sold in the same way as normal styles, the grind wouldn’t be so bad. In its current state there is a massive grind rn to get these styles and it’s basically impossible if you use only 1-2 characters. Who knows which style will next receive this treatment and be split into pages......

Do you all like the way this grind has been implemented? Has anyone obtained the full styles yet?



EDIT: It has come to my attention that when you receive one of these motif page drops, it does not take into account which pages you have already learned. When you receive a duplicate page, it is instead deleted from your reward container. Duplicates can be picked from the loot table but not given to the player. This means that the more pages you earn, the longer it’ll take to get the next page, hence some players cite getting one page from 10-30+ reward boxes.

1/64 pages —> 1.563% chance of earning any of these 64 motif pages assuming you get a motif page drop in the first place from your reward box. Based on data from my own initial drops and many friends/forum posters, it is likely between a 20-30% chance... no way to know for sure.

It will never increase by taking into account pages you have already gotten. In essence, the chances of you fully earning both styles (64 pages) has an astronomically low chance of happening. My previous “two months” estimate was far, far off... based on the math, getting your final page in itself will take 64 reward containers that would contain a motif page. That easily means 100+ containers for your last page (and similar numbers leading up to it)

Atallanta

I agree, this is crazy

Katahdin

Too much WAAAAAY to much

Motif Farming Online


Wait....are these in game now? I did not see any announcement.....



.

Aliyavana

I just want those amazing horned swords

Waffennacht

Aliyavana wrote: »

I just want those amazing horned swords

I actually got those on my first BG after Summerset dropped

Chrlynsch

I've got 12 pages left.

As you go on, your droprate goes down, get ready for going 30+ boxes before getting a page...

Froil

Yeah that's way too much grind. Back when Summerset first dropped, I did one battleground a day and got a page like every day. After the first week, though, I didn't get any for three weeks while do it on more than one character. I just recently started getting them again.

Korprok

I don't like it at all, it adds just another layer of rng frustration in a already heavy rng frustrating game- I'd like to get some sort of tokens or something, and buy what you want when you can and let that be the progression of it, or just stick a alliance point price on them so that pvprs can earn them and earn some golds from selling some motifs to the general public who would like the motifs but don't care about pvp and/or BGs.

added frustration is that I "need" to do content I don't really care about, and if you play only one character... well, let's just say it will take "forever"

Aliyavana

Waffennacht wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

I just want those amazing horned swords

I actually got those on my first BG after Summerset dropped

I got the horned masks all 3

LadyNalcarya

I agree, it is too much of a grind. It would be better if the motifs would be tradable, after all, we can sell Militant or Akaviri pages, any dungeon- and trial-specific styles, so it doesnt make any sense that these new styles are bound.
Also bg queue doesnt even work properly since Summerset, I have to wait 15+ minutes to get a match.

Shawn_PT

I wish it was a guaranteed thing as well. Queue once per day, get a page in the purple reward box. I don't really enjoy having to force myself to stomach content I wouldn't otherwise play just to complete a collection, and the drop isn't even guaranteed. I only have three or four pages and already think this was a meh design.

mr_wazzabi

Well I'm glad I bought the fang lair motif instead, which look exactly the same except for the waist belt contents. Who knows how long I'll have to grind for to get these.

Pink_Violinz

If the pages were guaranteed, or you didn't have to get 1st or 2nd place it wouldn't be that bad. Currently it only caters to people who already enjoyed battlegrounds, and this is just an added bonus. I used to really enjoy battlegrounds, but my anxiety is so terrible in there I simply can't do them anymore.

Just let the things be boe, like all motifs.

S1ipperyJim

If anything they are too easy to farm. I think it's a great way of getting people back into BGs which would otherwise go the way of the ghost town that is the Imperial City

LadyNalcarya

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

If anything they are too easy to farm. I think it's a great way of getting people back into BGs which would otherwise go the way of the ghost town that is the Imperial City

It would be much more of an incentive if people could sell them.

Korprok

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

If anything they are too easy to farm. I think it's a great way of getting people back into BGs which would otherwise go the way of the ghost town that is the Imperial City

getting in loads of people who don't really care about the BGs... you get so many strange and unbalanced games combined with the current magsorc craze - it's mostly a KDR match between magsorc BG vets no matter the game mode.

starkerealm

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I've got 12 pages left.

As you go on, your droprate goes down, get ready for going 30+ boxes before getting a page...

I suspect the drop rate doesn't change, but you can't see the previously earned pages when you crack open a container. So the drop rate goes to hell because you're getting, (but not seeing) duplicates pages.

Katahdin

Ok I just did some research.

These are outfit styles based on the Fang Lair and Scalecaller motifs
They are not motifs themselves

But yea....totally grindy

Beamer_Miasma

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

If anything they are too easy to farm. I think it's a great way of getting people back into BGs which would otherwise go the way of the ghost town that is the Imperial City

This is not getting anyone (back) into the BGs, for 2 reasons. First of all, the grind is simply too big, as described by OP, it's not worth it unless you enjoy BGs and would do them anyway (in which case you don't need the pages as incentive). Second, these are not motifs at all, they are outfit styles, so it doesn't even allow people to craft things in that style - they are strictly for personal use only.

So I don't think these are meant as an incentive to get people back to BGs, if it was it would be the worst thought out plan ever, tradable motifs would have made much more sense for that. Instead these are trophies for avid PvPers, if you can show up in a full outfit of these, that would give you some proper bragging rights/BG cred, because everyone knows that the only way you could have gotten that outfit is by doing hundreds of BGs.

Whether it will actually work out that way I don't know, but that seems to be the thought behind these styles.

ArchMikem

Took me a couple weeks with 4 characters to get the only page i wanted. Fanged Worm Jack. Now that its dropped, no more grinding for me!

S1ipperyJim

Beamer_Miasma wrote: »

This is not getting anyone (back) into the BGs, for 2 reasons. First of all, the grind is simply too big, as described by OP, it's not worth it unless you enjoy BGs and would do them anyway (in which case you don't need the pages as incentive). Second, these are not motifs at all, they are outfit styles, so it doesn't even allow people to craft things in that style - they are strictly for personal use only.

Yes it is, I'm a case in point because I hadn't played BGs for probably 10 months and came back to farm these pages.

I've been running 8 characters through a day and am quite enjoying farming the pages. I get probably 3 pages a day, I don't think it's any sort of crazy grind at all. But then again I remember the old days of grinding VMA for that elusive sharpened inferno which never came so it's all relative. Compared to that these pages are ridiculously easy to get and are entirely cosmetic so it's not like you are forced to farm them.

Trouble is these days a lot of folks feel entitled to everything straight away and with little effort.

Chrlynsch

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Beamer_Miasma wrote: »

This is not getting anyone (back) into the BGs, for 2 reasons. First of all, the grind is simply too big, as described by OP, it's not worth it unless you enjoy BGs and would do them anyway (in which case you don't need the pages as incentive). Second, these are not motifs at all, they are outfit styles, so it doesn't even allow people to craft things in that style - they are strictly for personal use only.

Yes it is, I'm a case in point because I hadn't played BGs for probably 10 months and came back to farm these pages.

I've been running 8 characters through a day and am quite enjoying farming the pages. I get probably 3 pages a day, I don't think it's any sort of crazy grind at all. But then again I remember the old days of grinding VMA for that elusive sharpened inferno which never came so it's all relative. Compared to that these pages are ridiculously easy to get and are entirely cosmetic so it's not like you are forced to farm them.

Trouble is these days a lot of folks feel entitled to everything straight away and with little effort.

I expect your tone will change when you go from getting 3 a day to 3 a month.

ezio45

my problem with this is there bound, would have been a great way for pvpers to make some cash

idk

It does not seem crazy if you think about it.

It has become customary that the motif is not available in the crown store until well after it was released in game. These two motif styles broke with that in offering them in game and in the crown store about the same time though Zos messed that up.

So taking that into consideration it makes sense Zos would make it more of a burden to get it in game to make bank on the crown store sales.

Faulgor

starkerealm wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I've got 12 pages left.

As you go on, your droprate goes down, get ready for going 30+ boxes before getting a page...

I suspect the drop rate doesn't change, but you can't see the previously earned pages when you crack open a container. So the drop rate goes to hell because you're getting, (but not seeing) duplicates pages.

I always suspected this is the case, too. That's how some previous event reward boxes worked that didn't give you duplicates - the box still rolls the duplicate, you just don't get the item. If this is the case with BG boxes as well, it will be horrendously hard to finish the set. And with more pages coming with the next update, the pool will dillute even further ...

Edit: I'm not certain about this, but I tried to calculate how many pages you need to draw on average to get a full set.
If there were truly no duplicates, it would be 64, obviously.
If duplicates still count as a draw, it's about 303.6.
If we assume a base drop rate of 20%, that's 1518 boxes. With 5 characters as said in the OP, it would take 303 days.

If the pages weren't split the way they are, it would be 28 or 110 respectively, i.e. 550 boxes.

I think the best way would be just to increase the drop rate, ideally to 100%. It's already limited to a daily, you need to finish 1st or 2nd, and if ZOS plans to add more outfit styles to this system regularly, there should be sufficient time between updates to complete a set. At a 100% drop rate, you'd need on average 303 boxes to complete the two styles currently available, or 2 months with 5 characters. That seems fair to me.

Carbonised

This annoys me to no end. I also noted the fragmentation that you mention, Vaoh, and sadly it just continues the trend started in Summerset where everything is fragmented into bits of parts of a whole. Just look at jewelrycrafting.

I loathe getting into the Sload-infested Battlegrounds, and I only do it so I can get my purple box. Sometimes you even finish third and have to re-enter to get the box. And then it's only a chance for a drop, a chance that diminishes along the way. And even if you get a drop, you only get like a third of a motif page. And with Wolfhunter they confirmed even more BG outfit drops, which means having to spend even more time with this nonsense, just to get the outfit pieces that I want.

This is some nasty BS, and ZOS should really consider either of two solutions:
- Increase the droprate and dropchances. Get a purple daily box REGARDLESS if you finish last. You already get punished with less quality items in the mail and less AP for finishing last, make the box a participator's reward. And instead of an ever decreasing droprate for these pages, because you get nothing if you get a duplicate, then make the chance for a page drop a FLAT CHANCE regardless of how many pages you already have, and when rewarded a page it will always pick from the ones you do not know. Or keep the box for only winners and seconds in a match, but having a page be pretty much GUARANTEED or almost guaranteed, to drop from the daily box.
- Or keep the current silly scheme, but make the pages tradeable/sellable and not BoP

Sotha_Sil

At the beginning, I thought we were guaranteed to get one page on every box and I was like "ok, it's going to be long but not that much it's only 28 pages".

Then I realized it is way more than 28 pages because you need one for each armor style and so on.

I was like, "ok, it's going to be a bit long but I will achieve it in 2 months"

And then I noticed that I wouldn't get pages every time...

and I was like "STFU ZOS....seriously??"....

And now I don't care about this ***. This grind SUCKS HARD. ZOS YOU SCREW BIG THIS TIME. THE REWARD VS EFFORT RATIO IS REALLY NOT CONVINCING ANYMORE. CHANGE THIS CRAP!

Hamish999

[removed baiting commentary]

The drop rate is fine, I don't expect a top tier reward everytime I complete something in game and I appreciate it more when I do get a rarer reward.

themaddaedra

It's the most stupid grind we have ever seen so far. And for fox sake did anyone give any positive feedback on it? Because they are now bringing new ones with Wolfhunter. People keep asking for things and they keep bringing things nobody asks for. It's like they are trolling or something.

Ophion

The only positive things I see with the pages being split in 32 pages would be to create a more diverse base of players in the battlegrounds. But considering the state of battlegrounds; the weird MMR system, the deserter penalty bugs and the excessive loading queues, i'd say that It's just not worth the effort. The incentive is good but if the game mode fails, why bother?

Fischblut

If we were getting full chapters (not pages), or the pages had a 100% drop rate, or these pages could be sold in the same way as normal styles, the grind wouldn’t be so bad.

And for fox sake did anyone give any positive feedback on it? Because they are now bringing new ones with Wolfhunter. People keep asking for things and they keep bringing things nobody asks for. It's like they are trolling or something.

100% agree And developers made it even worse, removed the ability to at least sell reward boxes...

Instead these are trophies for avid PvPers, if you can show up in a full outfit of these, that would give you some proper bragging rights/BG cred, because everyone knows that the only way you could have gotten that outfit is by doing hundreds of BGs.

I was forced to farm them for amazing horned heads and fanged chests. No matter the source, I love their looks and would farm anything for them Heads are just unique and so creepy, while chests are copy of Fang Lair chests - except I personally hate books on hips, to the point that I won't learn this page style if I get it in dungeon. Same I had to farm for that beautiful Firedrake's flame color

My dragons can look even more like... dragons