Please Increase the difficulty of Veteran Trials.

MaddPowered

Power Creep is a process that sometimes occurs in games where new content slowly outstrip the power of previous alternatives.

With the past few patches, The over all DPS has increased significantly, resulting in the ease of burning through all mechanics that make trials fun.
People are doing pad 5 burns on rakkhat in hard mode. 1 prayer phase twins. 1 add phase varlariel. 7 minute vAS +2 clears. The list goes on and on.

Now I am not complaining about DPS being too high, don't get me wrong. I want DPS to stay exactly where it is. But i think it is time for another buff to all trials. (Much like they did back in Dark Brotherhood and Shadows of the Hist, vr12 > vr16)

It has gotten to the point where every trial in the game now (With the exception of vCR HM) has become too easy. vMoL for example, It used to be the hardest trial in the game but now has gotten to the point where it is one of the easiest. vHoF and vAS HM are on their way to that status too.

I think that it has gotten to the point where there needs to be a revamp to all the current raids in the game. Increase the overall HP of everything, Scale up the damage and maybe add in new mechanics to all fights and add in new loot / sets we can earn from completing the raids. Because as of right now, Vet trials as a whole are not rewarding at all.

Now i get that not all people in this game who raid will agree with me. Some will disagree with me 100%. But i feel like the majority of end game raiders will agree.

Lets hear your thoughts in the comments of this post.

redspecter23

I suspect that if ZOS is to address this issue, they'll approach it in a raise the floor/lower the ceiling sort of way. They will probably attempt to bring top end dps down without adjusting the difficulty of end game content. This would be a nerf if you're an endgame player and a relative buff if you're not at that level yet.

At least in theory, that sounds like a great plan. Constantly adjusting the goalposts by retroactively changing all endgame content to make it harder just moves the goalpost for everyone, including those that are just learning their way through the content. This would be a massive blow to those sort of groups, discouraging participation.

My opinion is that I'm fine if older content becomes easier over time due to power creep. Newer content can contain harder challenges more in line to the current power level of top tier players. Over time as old content gets easier relative to the power creep, it becomes accessible to more players. I have no problem with that.

AlienatedGoat

MaddPowered wrote: »

Power Creep is a process that sometimes occurs in games where new content slowly outstrip the power of previous alternatives.

With the past few patches, The over all DPS has increased significantly, resulting in the ease of burning through all mechanics that make trials fun.
People are doing pad 5 burns on rakkhat in hard mode. 1 prayer phase twins. 1 add phase varlariel. 7 minute vAS +2 clears. The list goes on and on.

Now I am not complaining about DPS being too high, don't get me wrong. I want DPS to stay exactly where it is. But i think it is time for another buff to all trials. (Much like they did back in Dark Brotherhood and Shadows of the Hist, vr12 > vr16)

It has gotten to the point where every trial in the game now (With the exception of vCR HM) has become too easy. vMoL for example, It used to be the hardest trial in the game but now has gotten to the point where it is one of the easiest. vHoF and vAS HM are on their way to that status too.

I think that it has gotten to the point where there needs to be a revamp to all the current raids in the game. Increase the overall HP of everything, Scale up the damage and maybe add in new mechanics to all fights and add in new loot / sets we can earn from completing the raids. Because as of right now, Vet trials as a whole are not rewarding at all.

Now i get that not all people in this game who raid will agree with me. Some will disagree with me 100%. But i feel like the majority of end game raiders will agree.

Lets hear your thoughts in the comments of this post.

Yeah, I don't think the majority of endgame raiders will agree. Most endgame raiders don't have skins from vHoF, vAS or vCR.

The progression through Trials is murky, but it exists clearly enough to give people in endgame PvE a good roadmap of what goes where. For example, pretty much everyone knows that vet Trials in Craglorn are the easiest in the game. And that's ok, there's no reason they need to be as hard as vCR or vAS. So everyone starts vets in Craglorn. That works just fine.

It's a good thing for there to be vet trials that serve as a stepping stone to harder vet trials. There's no reason for every vet Trial HM to be as hard as the most recent one. We need progression in this game, and that includes endgame PvE.

AlienatedGoat

redspecter23 wrote: »

I suspect that if ZOS is to address this issue, they'll approach it in a raise the floor/lower the ceiling sort of way. They will probably attempt to bring top end dps down without adjusting the difficulty of end game content. This would be a nerf if you're an endgame player and a relative buff if you're not at that level yet.

At least in theory, that sounds like a great plan. Constantly adjusting the goalposts by retroactively changing all endgame content to make it harder just moves the goalpost for everyone, including those that are just learning their way through the content. This would be a massive blow to those sort of groups, discouraging participation.

My opinion is that I'm fine if older content becomes easier over time due to power creep. Newer content can contain harder challenges more in line to the current power level of top tier players. Over time as old content gets easier relative to the power creep, it becomes accessible to more players. I have no problem with that.

Exactly. Yes. Progression is important, and if we make all vet Trials the same hard difficulty, it cuts off accessibility to anyone wanting to progress through endgame PvE.

It's perfectly fine that older Trials get easier with time. We have 1-2 Trials a year now that keeps that final difficulty goalpost high.

Chaos2088

Mmmm maybe not change Vet,

Adding another tier on top, like Legendary mode would be cool tho, also to dungeons.

cicisch

I agree with Rhzo. Craglorns are too easy as it is right now. A third tier of difficulty should be added to AA/HRC/SO and eventually implemented into the DLCs as well to continue to challenge people who have been raiding for years. Some of the ease is due in part to people mastering the mechanics and being able to teach new players very easily, but a large part of it has come with raising the CP cap each patch.

I don't think there should be a flat buff because from my perspective, there are people brand new to raiding who need an environment to learn in. The third tier of difficulty can be exactly what Rhzolen suggested, with the higher HP of all bosses and added mechanics. These new sets should also only be available for completing the trial on that hardest configuration. This will give new players an incentive to get better and want to complete the trials at the highest level.

Icy_Waffles

Ever consider the idea that people LEARN thr content and obviously with practice, it gets easier as the main thing to learn is mechanics and teamwork?

shadowwraith666

oh look another "the games too easy" thread, it doesn't matter how hard they make it because you will eventually overcome each difficulty increase and be back here wanting an even higher difficulty, essentially going in a never-ending cycle of increase difficulty, overcome difficulty, demand another increase and so on.

Katahdin

No

You learn the mechanics and do it a few times of course it will get easier for you. That's what happens when you learn something.

VAA is almost boring at times now that i have done it a few times with a good group.

Try going in there with a bunch of first timers.
It wont be so easy

Adding a third to level of difficulty I can agree with as long as it isnt the only way to get legendary jewlery or otherwise shut off less OP people to stuff. Maybe give that level 2 yellow jewelry or yellow jewelry mats or something like that

Doctordarkspawn

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Mmmm maybe not change Vet,

Adding another tier on top, like Legendary mode would be cool tho, also to dungeons.

I've been shotuing this since a few updates ago.

Rather than just statically increase the difficulty just add more modes and make *** ajustments to the ones we allready have so it's clear progression.

WuffyCerulei

There's only a small number of people who can do all those. Maybe 2 or 3 guild cores in PC NA afaik. The rest of the end-game pve people aren't so OP. Don't go asking for sh*t to harder for people because a handful of people live in these trials and work their butts off to get to those points.

However, the old vanilla trials could be revisited and mechanics updated.

Ragebull

They need to be more fun, not hard, but that's just me

WuffyCerulei

Ragebull wrote: »

They need to be more fun, not hard, but that's just me

THIS. They need to not be monotonous, aka vAS. The most boring and agonizing trial.

Shad0wfire99

Considering the changes to combat that began in Morrowind were, at least in part, due to groups being able to skip mechanics through sheer damage, some of the older trials could use a difficulty adjustment.

starkerealm

MaddPowered wrote: »

7 minute vAS +2 clears. The list goes on and on.

I find this example somewhat suspect.

MaddPowered

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

There's only a small number of people who can do all those. Maybe 2 or 3 guild cores in PC NA afaik. The rest of the end-game pve people aren't so OP. Don't go asking for sh*t to harder for people because a handful of people live in these trials and work their butts off to get to those points.

However, the old vanilla trials could be revisited and mechanics updated.

There are a lot of people (On PC/NA) who can clear that content. If we are talking vCR +3 then yeah, there are only 3 guilds. But vAS +2, vMoL, vHoF, vMoL HM are being cleared on a regular basis in multiple guilds across the server. Generalizing that only 2-3 guilds on PC are capable of clearing vMoL or vHoF or vAS +2 is false.

WuffyCerulei

MaddPowered wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

There's only a small number of people who can do all those. Maybe 2 or 3 guild cores in PC NA afaik. The rest of the end-game pve people aren't so OP. Don't go asking for sh*t to harder for people because a handful of people live in these trials and work their butts off to get to those points.

However, the old vanilla trials could be revisited and mechanics updated.

There are a lot of people (On PC/NA) who can clear that content. If we are talking vCR +3 then yeah, there are only 3 guilds. But vAS +2, vMoL, vHoF, vMoL HM are being cleared on a regular basis in multiple guilds across the server. Generalizing that only 2-3 guilds on PC are capable of clearing vMoL or vHoF or vAS +2 is false.

I mean clearing vAS +2 in 7 minutes and the other things you listed. Ofc a lot of people have cleared vMoL/vMoL HM and vHoF, but a lot of em can't do pad 5 burns and stuff.

code65536

Ooh, look at Rhzolen bragging about his e-peen size.

The difficulty is fine. I seem to remember joining a vMoL with you the other night, where they were stuck on Rakkhat for hours, and they had to bring in outsiders before they could clear it? I doubt they'd call it easy like you just did.

That said, I do agree that there's been quite a bit of power creep lately. Feels like the days leading up to the Morrowind nerfhammer. But I'd prefer that difficulty adjustments happen by way of de-creeping. Those overperforming Cloudrest sets, for example...

ArchMikem

This is sarcasm right? It has to be. It cant be anything but.

If you honestly believe vet trials are too easy and you need those of all things to be even more difficult, maybe youve gotten all you can out of this game and its time to find a new one.

AlienatedGoat

ArchMikem wrote: »

This is sarcasm right? It has to be. It cant be anything but.

If you honestly believe vet trials are too easy and you need those of all things to be even more difficult, maybe youve gotten all you can out of this game and its time to find a new one.

It's just a perception error. I've run with dudes before who think similarly, and its all due to the fact that they run with people of the same kind and develop this bubble-think where the game is too easy, even though they're a very, very small representation of endgame PvE'rs as a whole.

You can find this kind of perception error in pretty much all places in life. People are generally too quick to generalize based on their own perceptions (Hah). That's where perception-checking comes in useful.

FloppyTouch

Top end game trial people make up a smaller fraction of players then any part of the game. Trials should be able to be completed by players not in BiS gear and working to the higher lvls.

Just bc you run with people that all have insane dps does not mean everyone else does. These trials are just fine the way they are and offer a challenge to players that dont run them 24/7.

ArchMikem

Phage wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

This is sarcasm right? It has to be. It cant be anything but.

If you honestly believe vet trials are too easy and you need those of all things to be even more difficult, maybe youve gotten all you can out of this game and its time to find a new one.

It's just a perception error. I've run with dudes before who think similarly, and its all due to the fact that they run with people of the same kind and develop this bubble-think where the game is too easy, even though they're a very, very small representation of endgame PvE'rs as a whole.

Not to mention theyre all a group of 12 God tier geared BiS characters, so of course their beliefs are biased.

MaddPowered

code65536 wrote: »

Ooh, look at Rhzolen bragging about his e-peen size.

The difficulty is fine. I seem to remember joining a vMoL with you the other night, where they were stuck on Rakkhat for hours, and they had to bring in outsiders before they could clear it? I doubt they'd call it easy like you just did.

That said, I do agree that there's been quite a bit of power creep lately. Feels like the days leading up to the Morrowind nerfhammer. But I'd prefer that difficulty adjustments happen by way of de-creeping. Those overperforming Cloudrest sets, for example...

I am in no way bragging about my e-peen. I am in no way bragging that i am the best player in this game, And if you think that i am then we have nothing more to talk about.I am simply stating that i feel that content in this game is too easy. I want there to be more challenge in this game. Once a team has cleared a piece of content, it will progressively get easier and easier, As you know.

AlienatedGoat

MaddPowered wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MaddPowered wrote: »

7 minute vAS +2 clears. The list goes on and on.

I find this example somewhat suspect.

starkerealm wrote: »

MaddPowered wrote: »

7 minute vAS +2 clears. The list goes on and on.

I find this example somewhat suspect.

code65536 wrote: »

Ooh, look at Rhzolen bragging about his e-peen size.

The difficulty is fine. I seem to remember joining a vMoL with you the other night, where they were stuck on Rakkhat for hours, and they had to bring in outsiders before they could clear it? I doubt they'd call it easy like you just did.

That said, I do agree that there's been quite a bit of power creep lately. Feels like the days leading up to the Morrowind nerfhammer. But I'd prefer that difficulty adjustments happen by way of de-creeping. Those overperforming Cloudrest sets, for example...

I am in no way bragging about my e-peen. I am in no way bragging that i am the best player in this game, And if you think that i am then we have nothing more to talk about.I am simply stating that i feel that content in this game is too easy. I want there to be more challenge in this game. Once a team has cleared a piece of content, it will progressively get easier and easier, As you know.

If that's the case, I think your complaint should be about the rate of the addition of new, hard content, rather than the difficulty of existing content.

ZOS can't change the difficulty of existing Trials for people who have run them countless times and know the mechanics backwards and forwards without redesigning them into basically new Trials - the exception being the addition of a harder mode (sort of a hard mode's hard mode). That could be discussed further.

MaddPowered

I am trying to start a constructive post and am simply stating my opinion and i also want to see what Other's think of this topic as well. Just because i have this certain mindset doesn't mean that i completely disregard the rest of the raiding community who thinks otherwise. Or that i think that my perspective is the only perspective.

Chrysa1is

No. No one likes elitists

Pink_Violinz

I'm almost completely against this. I main a healer and trials are one of the very few things in this game I do. Craglorns are fine because they're a good introduction for those learning. Most people still struggle or have difficulty in vet Craglorns, so ramping up the difficulty is going to hurt nobody but them.

DLC trials are also in a good spot. Once a person has the Craglorns down, MoL is the next step. It takes a ton of awareness and ability to follow mechanics to complete, let alone get a good score. The players who run these constantly know the mechanics, so making it harder would do nothing but extend the fight. More health/harder hitting mobs does not make for quality content. Lots of groups still struggle with HoF, vAS hm, and even VCR. You can't compare the top few groups to the entire player base, because they're essentially in different worlds in terms of skill and gear.

code65536

MaddPowered wrote: »

I want there to be more challenge in this game. Once a team has cleared a piece of content, it will progressively get easier and easier, As you know.

Well, yes, the content getting easier is the measure of your success and experience. vMoL should be easy for someone who cleared it two years ago, because that ease is their reward for--and measure of--two years of running that place again and again. If you don't want it to be easy, you can run with a group that's trying to get their first clear.

You want that difficult first-clear experience? That's why we get new trials every few updates, so you can get that experience all over again. But rescaling existing content? I doubt that killing Rakkhat HM on pad 7 would suddenly make the fight that much more enjoyable than killing him on pad 5. Readjusting content is about as effective as releasing yet another HD remaster of an old movie. What people really want is a sequel, not the same old thing in different dressing.

Furthermore, the problem with buffing the difficulty of content is that you're pulling up the ladder behind you. What about people who haven't gotten their Rakkhat HM kills yet, who don't have the experience that comes with multiple clears under their belt, who might be struggling to just kill him on pad 7? You're asking for content to be pushed out of the grasp of newer players to satisfy your boredom. A boredom that would probably return within a month after such a difficulty adjustment.

And finally, regarding the other factor that makes content easier, the DPS creep: you say in your post that you are "not complaining about DPS being too high", even though you also say that this power creep has enabled levels of DPS that bypass mechanics. It would seem that you need to do a better job of connecting the dots. If there is any adjustment that needs to happen, it's an adjustment to that power creep, not the content. Edit: To elaborate, the power creep in recent years have been the result of small incremental changes each patch. The VR12->CP160 rescale was different because the power creep there was much larger and was the result of major fundamental changes, like new gear levels, the introduction of the champion point system, etc., all happening in a relatively shorter period of time. This is why content revamp made sense in that instance but not here.

FR0STDEE

Yes Zos should cater to the 1%ers who love to get on these forums tell everyone how awesome they are.

Tholian1

Keep raising the bar on content you have mastered before most others even get there? No thanks.

mikemacon

Yes. Absolutely.

I mean, God forbid we actually feel more powerful over time. Pshaw.

::scoffs scoffingly::