[Class Rep] Warden Feedback Thread

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm trying to get you there without sacrificing magden's identity.

As I just pointed out, in effect, Winter's Revenge is that identity. I'd love to see birds converted to like an ice bolt, shalks do frost damage, etc. That may well be a change in the future. But clearly Zos sees that as identity, as they've now done it for two different classes.

ESO_Nightingale

thadjarvis wrote: »

Think poison makes more sense than bleed imo. To my knowledge bleed didn’t enter into warden till divide change. Poison has been there from getgo, and RP wise makes sense when throwing bugs at people.

@ESO_Nightingale
I think the primary issue @Skjaldbjorn brought up was missed in your tooltips: PvE stamden usage. I may have missed it but I didn’t see something that buffs group damage directly or indirectly. Unless a class is a very high outlier DPS, group damage buff is what matters.

I’m getting a little lost as to what the pain points are with so many changes and how they’d inter relate. What are the 2 to 4 pain point changes in the tool tips?

Okay, I've updated the bear.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Think poison makes more sense than bleed imo. To my knowledge bleed didn’t enter into warden till divide change. Poison has been there from getgo, and RP wise makes sense when throwing bugs at people.

@ESO_Nightingale
I think the primary issue @Skjaldbjorn brought up was missed in your tooltips: PvE stamden usage. I may have missed it but I didn’t see something that buffs group damage directly or indirectly. Unless a class is a very high outlier DPS, group damage buff is what matters.

I’m getting a little lost as to what the pain points are with so many changes and how they’d inter relate. What are the 2 to 4 pain point changes in the tool tips?

Okay, I've updated the bear.

4% for 3 seconds? Necros get 30% for 8 seconds with the fastest ulti gen in the game lol Nobody is bringing a Warden for that. Nobody.

Skjaldbjorn

Either Wardens need to be top-2 or 3 DPS in their respective fields, or they need to bring unique, incredibly meaningful buffs. Perhaps not on the level of Major Vuln, but a hell of a lot stronger than 4% damage. Only way you're ever going to see them in trials.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Think poison makes more sense than bleed imo. To my knowledge bleed didn’t enter into warden till divide change. Poison has been there from getgo, and RP wise makes sense when throwing bugs at people.

@ESO_Nightingale
I think the primary issue @Skjaldbjorn brought up was missed in your tooltips: PvE stamden usage. I may have missed it but I didn’t see something that buffs group damage directly or indirectly. Unless a class is a very high outlier DPS, group damage buff is what matters.

I’m getting a little lost as to what the pain points are with so many changes and how they’d inter relate. What are the 2 to 4 pain point changes in the tool tips?

Okay, I've updated the bear.

4% for 3 seconds? Necros get 30% for 8 seconds with the fastest ulti gen in the game lol Nobody is bringing a Warden for that. Nobody.

it's a 4% constant buff.... for as long as the bear is attacking?

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's a 4% constant buff.... for as long as the bear is attacking?

Ah, I misread that. I thought it was related to the active on the ult. Sorry.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's a 4% constant buff.... for as long as the bear is attacking?

Ah, I misread that. I thought it was related to the active on the ult. Sorry.

yeah haha i thought so.

ESO_Nightingale

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

Updated again.

Valdek

Firstly, ESO_Nightingale - your changes look AMAZING! Please keep up the good work.

Main concerns with Magden, particularly in PVP:

1. Need an execute. (Bear is clunky and not usually a good option... anywhere.)


2. Damage feels lower in pvp and pve than other mag classes. DPS is lower AND burst is lower.

Especially with no execute, this can make it very difficult to compete with other classes. Add on top of that lack of any usable class stun. Basically the offence feels like a wet noodle compared to the potential of other classes in both pvp and pve. I mean, aren't we meant to be frost mages? Surely we should be able to freeze people!

Skjaldbjorn

PROPOSED DIVE REDESIGN:

This is something for a down-the-road approach to Warden. Once Warden gets cleaned up and rebalanced, I think this would be the skill to invest the most work into. After giving it a lot of thought, I decided to try drawing some inspiration from other titles to find unique, dynamic concepts for both magicka and stamina versions that would bring a totally new flavor with brand new interactions.

Base Skill: Nature's Reach
Medium Ranged Spammable
Deals Magic Damage
Scales off Magicka

Magicka Morph: Frozen Shards
Medium Ranged Spammable
Deals Frost Damage
Applies Chilled
Scales off Magicka
MECHANIC: Once contacting an initial target, a spray of ice shards hit everything in a cone behind the target, fanning outward. (think a shotgun blast with buckshot). Shards do 40-60% initial damage, hitting each target once with a very small chance to apply Chilled.
VISUAL: Similar to crystal shards, actually, but ice. A bolt of ice that shatters on impact with small particles spraying behind/outward in a cone.

Stamina Morph: Rip and Tear
Melee Spammable
Deals Physical Damage
Scales off Stamina
MECHANIC: Each claw strike applies a stacking bleed effect (2 per global), stacking up to 6 times. The bleeds innately do minimal damage, but scale up for each bleed applied. Bleeds refresh on hit. In addition, targets leave a short trail only visible to the Warden. (PVP element to help counter invis as trackers). All bleed stacks cleansed by singular purge effect.
VISUAL: In my head, the vision was the hands changing to claws for a quick two-swipe laceration. Similar to some of the Werewolf attacks in design and feel. Could make the claws bear-like to drive home the Bear theme.

@ESO_Nightingale Thoughts from a PVPer?

Skjaldbjorn

Oops.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

PROPOSED DIVE REDESIGN:

This is something for a down-the-road approach to Warden. Once Warden gets cleaned up and rebalanced, I think this would be the skill to invest the most work into. After giving it a lot of thought, I decided to try drawing some inspiration from other titles to find unique, dynamic concepts for both magicka and stamina versions that would bring a totally new flavor with brand new interactions.

Base Skill: Nature's Reach
Medium Ranged Spammable
Deals Magic Damage
Scales off Magicka

Magicka Morph: Frozen Shards
Medium Ranged Spammable
Deals Frost Damage
Applies Chilled
Scales off Magicka
MECHANIC: Once contacting an initial target, a spray of ice shards hit everything in a cone behind the target, fanning outward. (think a shotgun blast with buckshot). Shards do 40-60% initial damage, hitting each target once with a very small chance to apply Chilled.
VISUAL: Similar to crystal shards, actually, but ice. A bolt of ice that shatters on impact with small particles spraying behind/outward in a cone.

Stamina Morph: Rip and Tear
Melee Spammable
Deals Physical Damage
Scales off Stamina
MECHANIC: Each claw strike applies a stacking bleed effect (2 per global), stacking up to 6 times. The bleeds innately do minimal damage, but scale up for each bleed applied. Bleeds refresh on hit. In addition, targets leave a short trail only visible to the Warden. (PVP element to help counter invis as trackers). All bleed stacks cleansed by singular purge effect.
VISUAL: In my head, the vision was the hands changing to claws for a quick two-swipe laceration. Similar to some of the Werewolf attacks in design and feel. Could make the claws bear-like to drive home the Bear theme.

@ESO_Nightingale Thoughts from a PVPer?

The tracking thing might destroy NBs i don't know if that's a good idea. But an animation design keeping the current thing it does shouldn't be off the table. Also while i think the ice shotgun idea is cool, it's still about animal companions, so an ice wraith is the best of both worlds.

ESO_Nightingale

Valdek wrote: »

Firstly, ESO_Nightingale - your changes look AMAZING! Please keep up the good work.

Main concerns with Magden, particularly in PVP:

1. Need an execute. (Bear is clunky and not usually a good option... anywhere.)


2. Damage feels lower in pvp and pve than other mag classes. DPS is lower AND burst is lower.

Especially with no execute, this can make it very difficult to compete with other classes. Add on top of that lack of any usable class stun. Basically the offence feels like a wet noodle compared to the potential of other classes in both pvp and pve. I mean, aren't we meant to be frost mages? Surely we should be able to freeze people!

We have tried to adress this by adding a good combo skill back into the game. Arctic Blast would be that skill while also stunning the closest enemy. Rime Wraith would be a good spammable replacement to Screaming Cliff Racer that is more effective in combat.

ESO_Nightingale

Updated it again.

SilverIce58

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Updated it again.

No link?

ESO_Nightingale

SilverIce58 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Updated it again.

No link?

it's the same link.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

Muskrap

The shadow change to screaming cliff racer was definitely not needed especially when considering pvp magden is fairly forced to run Perfected Asylum to try to max out a damage build with chilled giving a 10% crit buff.

The majority of Warden players don't want super complicated mechanics to have to relearn how to play a class in PvP that we have been changing for 3 or 4 patches in a row now.

Bring back stun on shalks if you are bringing back stun on Dizzy Swing. Theres no reason why a hard hitting ability shouldnt be able to stun, It added more build diversity for not only Magden but for Sorc as well when frag stunned. Now we have this homogenized garbage because we are forced to use whatever stun is left because we dont get access to an on demand stun.

Which is ridiculous, as well as binding our stun to off balance. Which has been changed to have lower uptime, and can be purged. Overall I'm not quite sure what you have been planning for this class but majority of these sweeping changes make 0 sense.

SEINTDARKNES

I don't know about you guys but i think stamden need a ultimate more focus on burst damage mainly for pvp cause I'm really tired of using Dawn breaker or onslaught , i think everyone like to talk about the under performance of the mag warden and i can agree on those things but I'm really tired that almost every class have a class ultimate that deal alot of dmg(incap, take a fly, pestilent colossus, empowering sweep and sorcs can use atro) and everyone can agree that magden have northern storm for pvp, and its not like stamden it's gonna be op it's just another option to do dmg.
So i really liked if we can have an own burst ultimate or something to do damage because the bear on pvp it's a joke but the bear it's good in pve

LeHarrt91

Anyone done testing on PTS yet?

Skjaldbjorn

In regards to the new passive, AsianGod posted a terrific video detailing how it works, what the uptime is likely to be, the best ways to apply it and its actual impact in functional content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wionuilO0&feature=emb_logo

So essentially, it's probably a few hundred DPS increase, perhaps 1k.

For a Magden.

Whoo.

The worst DPS class in the game got a 500-1k DPS increase. It's party time.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

In regards to the new passive, AsianGod posted a terrific video detailing how it works, what the uptime is likely to be, the best ways to apply it and its actual impact in functional content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wionuilO0&feature=emb_logo

So essentially, it's probably a few hundred DPS increase, perhaps 1k.

For a Magden.

Whoo.

The worst DPS class in the game got a 500-1k DPS increase. It's party time.

i made it clear when i suggested it, that it was a precursor buff. so what i meant by that was that it wouldn't do too much at first, but when more frost related changes were implemented, that it would finally mean that chilled would be quite a useful thing to apply, if you understand what i mean. as it is right now, we don't really have the frost damage skills in place to be able to really get this going.

Brandathorbel

the thing i like about warden and I hope people don't get it ruined it is one of the few classes that have access to almost all major buffs and major debuffs in their kit.

They are a great class for people that mostly like to explore.

thadjarvis

@xbobx

Great point. Taking away major resist debuff, minor berserk, major proph/sorc/brut/savage would have a lot of negative effects. That hasn't been suggested in wholesale but some have proposed things that would take a couple away with alternatives.

Personally the way I see it, these buffs have little to no effect in end-game trials (Minor Vuln is it's own can of worms to leave to the side), but they are super helpful in dungeon, arena, OL, etc. No one really fights for balance in those areas of the game anyway.

Note xbob that most of the proposals that remove X buff have a corresponding Y such that the net result will be almost the same or better.

Skjaldbjorn

@thadjarvis You should post that doc in here as well. That's staggering lol

stevenyaub16_ESO

Current issue is warden DD is often regarded as the bottom feeder of the pile. I don't agree with just buffing dps to make them viable, but instead give them utility that would make them more desirable.

1. I would like to suggest a change that could help (that is nothing to do with DPS tuning) by adding a synergy to the bear ultimate

When bear Ultimate is activated, it applies a synergy on target "one with the pack" empowering light attacks and major heroism to nearby allies for 6 seconds.

DPS wise it would only increase group dps by 1% (for stam) and 2% for magicka) in a trial environment however it would provide major heroism which is not commonly given to other players.

and also give tanks another source of synergy for small scale dungeons, something missing from warden toolkit.


2. Remove the minimum range for Dive (cliff racer). These promote wardens to play at range (which is fine my prefered playstyle is bow/bow), but penalises melee characters.

To add more desirable to magwardens I would change the 15% bonus damage in range to 200% execute below 50%

Due to the incoming offbalance nerf. Remove the offbalance requirement on stamina morph but reduce the bleed damage by half.

ESO_Nightingale

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

Current issue is warden DD is often regarded as the bottom feeder of the pile. I don't agree with just buffing dps to make them viable, but instead give them utility that would make them more desirable.

1. I would like to suggest a change that could help (that is nothing to do with DPS tuning) by adding a synergy to the bear ultimate

When bear Ultimate is activated, it applies a synergy on target "one with the pack" empowering light attacks and major heroism to nearby allies for 6 seconds.

DPS wise it would only increase group dps by 1% (for stam) and 2% for magicka) in a trial environment however it would provide major heroism which is not commonly given to other players.

and also give tanks another source of synergy for small scale dungeons, something missing from warden toolkit.


2. Remove the minimum range for Dive (cliff racer). These promote wardens to play at range (which is fine my prefered playstyle is bow/bow), but penalises melee characters.

To add more desirable to magwardens I would change the 15% bonus damage in range to 200% execute below 50%

Due to the incoming offbalance nerf. Remove the offbalance requirement on stamina morph but reduce the bleed damage by half.

While i think bear having some group buff is fine, major heroism is an absurdly powerful group buff. The execute bonus you've listed on SCR would feel very powerful but i don't know if that is necessarily very fair to fight against. I think a smaller amount of execute bonus damage like +50% would be fine. Maybe even too much. Dive has one critical issue right now, which is it's speed being too slow to be a better spammable/It's speed being too fast to combo with it's toolkit. Then after that, the off balance proc condition being more than 7 meters from the target forces you to create distance which is just awful design.

I'd argue what DPS warden needs next to group utility is fleshed out identity. Magden needs a unique damage skill and/or reliable offensive stun. Both need to gain an actual damage identity. Magden with frost damage on Animal Companions skills and stamden with more bleeds/bleed related effects on it's Animal Companions skills.

stevenyaub16_ESO

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

While i think bear having some group buff is fine, major heroism is an absurdly powerful group buff. The execute bonus you've listed on SCR would feel very powerful but i don't know if that is necessarily very fair to fight against. I think a smaller amount of execute bonus damage like +50% would be fine. Maybe even too much. Dive has one critical issue right now, which is it's speed being too slow to be a better spammable/It's speed being too fast to combo with it's toolkit. Then after that, the off balance proc condition being more than 7 meters from the target forces you to create distance which is just awful design.

I'd argue what DPS warden needs next to group utility is fleshed out identity. Magden needs a unique damage skill and/or reliable offensive stun. Both need to gain an actual damage identity. Magden with frost damage on Animal Companions skills and stamden with more bleeds/bleed related effects on it's Animal Companions skills.

I'm not a developer who has run the math. So it's more the idea than the actual %. My point is to streamline those dive skills to add value to them, situational spammables are not a good design.

As for the bear synergy. The point here is that dps is just a bandaid fix that changes with the tide. But a buff like heroism adds value in a different way and put wardens in a unique position in trials.

It's up to Devs to adjust and decide the numbers, we are just giving ideas.

ESO_Nightingale

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

While i think bear having some group buff is fine, major heroism is an absurdly powerful group buff. The execute bonus you've listed on SCR would feel very powerful but i don't know if that is necessarily very fair to fight against. I think a smaller amount of execute bonus damage like +50% would be fine. Maybe even too much. Dive has one critical issue right now, which is it's speed being too slow to be a better spammable/It's speed being too fast to combo with it's toolkit. Then after that, the off balance proc condition being more than 7 meters from the target forces you to create distance which is just awful design.

I'd argue what DPS warden needs next to group utility is fleshed out identity. Magden needs a unique damage skill and/or reliable offensive stun. Both need to gain an actual damage identity. Magden with frost damage on Animal Companions skills and stamden with more bleeds/bleed related effects on it's Animal Companions skills.

I'm not a developer who has run the math. So it's more the idea than the actual %. My point is to streamline those dive skills to add value to them, situational spammables are not a good design.

As for the bear synergy. The point here is that dps is just a bandaid fix that changes with the tide. But a buff like heroism adds value in a different way and put wardens in a unique position in trials.

It's up to Devs to adjust and decide the numbers, we are just giving ideas.

While it's just an idea, i find it best to think about the impact the buff would have, comparing it to other sources or similar buffs and thinking about the class identity. Major heroism truely is a collosal buff but having generally easy access to it in groups would just be absurd. Think about other ultimate abilities that other classes would be firing off way more frequently due to this change. I don't believe we would need a group buff like major heroism. But perhaps smaller group buffs to help promote use rather than enforce it. Dive is an okay skill in function. It's just too slow to be an effective spammable and too fast to be an effective burst tool, and it's unique effect's proc condition is not reflective of how the class actually plays or wants to play. Fixing these issues will add the value that the skill generally lacks. additionally, as we have established before, SCR's bonus damage at range has the same issue that the off balance proc has. They could easily just be reversed to do both powerful effects at 7 meters or less. And SCR dealing frost damage is also another need now that the glacial change is in. We need burst frost damage skills to proc chilled. Not just ground AoE DoTs which are the worst skill type at proccing the statuses. Changing the magic damage animal companions skills to frost, adding a new frost damage burst skill like AB4.0, removing minor berserk from bidd of prey for a better movement effect and replacing the magic damage in piercing cold with physical damage would all be interlocked changes as they all effect one-another. It also helps to clean the class up by removing a simple raw damage buff in minor berserk, homogenising the damage type of the class and adding a good amount of the identity we want.

Trancestor

Is changing all magicka morphs of dmg animal companion skills to frost something zos would ever do? I kinda doubt that they would change a theme of a whole skill line. They would also have to change a bunch of animations and i doubt they care enough to bother.

With that said something really should be done, this green for stamina blue for magicka identity is really boring, and magden synergy is just awful. I dont understand how there are so many magden mains suddenly, its such a boring class to play.

ESO_Nightingale

Trancestor wrote: »

Is changing all magicka morphs of dmg animal companion skills to frost something zos would ever do? I kinda doubt that they would change a theme of a whole skill line. They would also have to change a bunch of animations and i doubt they care enough to bother.

With that said something really should be done, this green for stamina blue for magicka identity is really boring, and magden synergy is just awful. I dont understand how there are so many magden mains suddenly, its such a boring class to play.

I mean they'd still be animals and the stamina ones would still remain as normal (vvardenfell animals+bear if you count that strange arsenal as normal lol). I don't see why that isn't possible. They already deal damage in a damage type that isn't natural to them. and ZOS have shown that they are willing to change animations recently even, look at stone giant, completely overhauled.

if you're talking about them not doing it because of potential lore conflicts, In the case for the suggested ice wraith change to SCR, according to the book "The Wispmother" "The Wispmother claims that ice wraiths are in fact not creatures at all, stating that they are actually elemental manifestations rising out of Nirn itself." this seems to contradict the animal bit, but this was left open to interpretation by the people who wrote the lore and can absolutely be retconed.

furthermore in Ice Wraith trivia,

While the name wraith may imply they are undead, they are not, and are instead elemental spirits of ice and snow (similar to how spriggans are elemental spirits of the forest). The fact that ice wraiths are not undead beings is further confirmed by their immunity to Detect Dead, Turn Undead and Sun Fire spells whilst simultaneously being able to be detected by the Detect Life spell.

Either way this sounds like nature magic. so if they aren't animals but instead elemental manifestations rising from nirn, who's to say they aren't a Y'ffre thing anyway? Animal Companions can be stretched a little bit to include the Ice Wraith as i'd call it close enough to an animal+ thematically appropriate with both a nature and frost mage.