[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

dodgehopper_ESO

hopewithoutwingsub17_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

How is it you can ambush with impunity but you can't Toppling charge without getting knockbacked mid charge EVERY time? Fix it ffs ZoS. This is what is wrong with Templar abilities. Literally every analogous version of what we have is better, which is why so much of us deep six our class ultimates for ultimates that actually work.

The healing ultimate is infuriating. It is HORRIBLE. The Aedric spear ultimate is one of the worst ultimates in the game, neither defensive or damaging it is a steaming pile of garbage. Nova Tickles enemies unless someone synergizes, and even then its pretty weak and easily avoided. I dissuade new players from playing Templar. I actively dissuade them. They should go play Warden or DK. They'll be much happier.

I main a templar and this is sad to read.

anadandy wrote: »

I made a concerted effort to play my Templar with actual Templar abilities last week. I won't mention the stuff that's already being addressed but I can absolutely concur with the dreadful reliability of jabs. It was really funny too - watching the ESO Live of Devs vs whoever in BGS - and even a Dev had that classic Jabs Whiff.

Mobility - and the Templar curse of not being able to mount your horse for several seconds after combat end or Arkay forbid you heal/buff someone.

And pretty much everything @Darkmage1337 said. Especially Backlash not aggoing. Elemental drain does't aggro either.

I removed puncturing from my build/bar a while ago.

I thought it was normal not being able to mount your horse for several seconds after combat? No other class has to deal with this?

I do too. I generally find myself always coming back to my main because I like the concept/style but I usually get infuriated and go play something else and often find I do much better doing something else. I don't like it but that's just the way it is. I'm pretty sure were I to start over I would have made my main character a DK. That being said I hope that some day the class will live up to the potential of its style.

Neoauspex

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Hey class reps, next time there's a meeting with ZoS ask them if they are willing to share their data on skill usage. Even if it's just with the reps and not public. They've said in the past that they use this info in determining buffs/nerfs, I'd be curious to see if actually there's a ton of people running Nova in PvP even though I haven't seen it cast in 3 years or so.

Skill usage is a terrible proxy measurement for skill balance, and if ZOS is seriously using it for rebalancing purposes that would explain so much of the half-baked bro-math that seems to inform their decisions.

What data would you use to evaluate a skill? Forum opinions?

Videos showing performance of ability at both end game and more casual situations.

Because skill usage only shows who are using them at the time they extract the data (or have skill points in them). And forum opinions are sometimes biased (especially those whose class has rewarding abilities, but are often terribads that can't outskill a better player on a less optimal class.)

But videos; they don't lie. They show if you are fighting pugs/less challenging content or are smashing more competitive builds.

That would be a great project for somebody with a ton of time, to do a video series analyzing individual skills. Still, that's going to be subjective data other than dummy parses. Usage would yield a range, and obviously shouldn't be the only factor in balance. I think you'd just use that data to look for outliers that aren't anywhere near the normal range. I agree though, many sources of data should be taken into account, subjective and objective.

Minno

Neoauspex wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Hey class reps, next time there's a meeting with ZoS ask them if they are willing to share their data on skill usage. Even if it's just with the reps and not public. They've said in the past that they use this info in determining buffs/nerfs, I'd be curious to see if actually there's a ton of people running Nova in PvP even though I haven't seen it cast in 3 years or so.

Skill usage is a terrible proxy measurement for skill balance, and if ZOS is seriously using it for rebalancing purposes that would explain so much of the half-baked bro-math that seems to inform their decisions.

What data would you use to evaluate a skill? Forum opinions?

Videos showing performance of ability at both end game and more casual situations.

Because skill usage only shows who are using them at the time they extract the data (or have skill points in them). And forum opinions are sometimes biased (especially those whose class has rewarding abilities, but are often terribads that can't outskill a better player on a less optimal class.)

But videos; they don't lie. They show if you are fighting pugs/less challenging content or are smashing more competitive builds.

That would be a great project for somebody with a ton of time, to do a video series analyzing individual skills. Still, that's going to be subjective data other than dummy parses. Usage would yield a range, and obviously shouldn't be the only factor in balance. I think you'd just use that data to look for outliers that aren't anywhere near the normal range. I agree though, many sources of data should be taken into account, subjective and objective.

Gilliam already did that series.

Also just record what you play and upload to Youtube (that's what I do).

Neoauspex

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Hey class reps, next time there's a meeting with ZoS ask them if they are willing to share their data on skill usage. Even if it's just with the reps and not public. They've said in the past that they use this info in determining buffs/nerfs, I'd be curious to see if actually there's a ton of people running Nova in PvP even though I haven't seen it cast in 3 years or so.

Skill usage is a terrible proxy measurement for skill balance, and if ZOS is seriously using it for rebalancing purposes that would explain so much of the half-baked bro-math that seems to inform their decisions.

What data would you use to evaluate a skill? Forum opinions?

Videos showing performance of ability at both end game and more casual situations.

Because skill usage only shows who are using them at the time they extract the data (or have skill points in them). And forum opinions are sometimes biased (especially those whose class has rewarding abilities, but are often terribads that can't outskill a better player on a less optimal class.)

But videos; they don't lie. They show if you are fighting pugs/less challenging content or are smashing more competitive builds.

That would be a great project for somebody with a ton of time, to do a video series analyzing individual skills. Still, that's going to be subjective data other than dummy parses. Usage would yield a range, and obviously shouldn't be the only factor in balance. I think you'd just use that data to look for outliers that aren't anywhere near the normal range. I agree though, many sources of data should be taken into account, subjective and objective.

Gilliam already did that series.

Also just record what you play and upload to Youtube (that's what I do).

Good hire by ZoS then, be interested to see what sort of changes his input yields.

Minno

Neoauspex wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Hey class reps, next time there's a meeting with ZoS ask them if they are willing to share their data on skill usage. Even if it's just with the reps and not public. They've said in the past that they use this info in determining buffs/nerfs, I'd be curious to see if actually there's a ton of people running Nova in PvP even though I haven't seen it cast in 3 years or so.

Skill usage is a terrible proxy measurement for skill balance, and if ZOS is seriously using it for rebalancing purposes that would explain so much of the half-baked bro-math that seems to inform their decisions.

What data would you use to evaluate a skill? Forum opinions?

Videos showing performance of ability at both end game and more casual situations.

Because skill usage only shows who are using them at the time they extract the data (or have skill points in them). And forum opinions are sometimes biased (especially those whose class has rewarding abilities, but are often terribads that can't outskill a better player on a less optimal class.)

But videos; they don't lie. They show if you are fighting pugs/less challenging content or are smashing more competitive builds.

That would be a great project for somebody with a ton of time, to do a video series analyzing individual skills. Still, that's going to be subjective data other than dummy parses. Usage would yield a range, and obviously shouldn't be the only factor in balance. I think you'd just use that data to look for outliers that aren't anywhere near the normal range. I agree though, many sources of data should be taken into account, subjective and objective.

Gilliam already did that series.

Also just record what you play and upload to Youtube (that's what I do).

Good hire by ZoS then, be interested to see what sort of changes his input yields.

From what I remember about that series, he mentioned armor buffs should be on the caster not the rune for mobility fights. The biggest takeaway from his videos was the strength of the templar was in it's super efficient skills and ability to cleave damage; and his criticisms of the templar revolves around that.

Here are the templar videos he made:
Dawn's Wraith:
https://youtu.be/_DORqHWqBHc

Resto Light:
https://youtu.be/MLlzt9OtYp4

Aedric Spear:
https://youtu.be/umLq2mzKEvI

technohic

Just had a thought that I have had a long time ago and it was never really popular, but I feel like for Magplar (and DK as well probably) having a melee magicka weapon line would be great. With how light attacks have been buffed, and before that, heavy attacks restore resources of their respective resource pool they scale with; I feel like it has left behind magicka classes that have clasically relied on 1h and shield or just plain melee. Frost staff kind of gives that, poorly; but there is no damage magicka melee weapon. Since staffs are balanced for range and have the damage closer to a bow, there is nothing equivalent to 2h or dual wield that would compliment magicka melee.

Templars and DKs will always underperform sorcs and magblades at the ranged game as we do not have the kite and abilities to do so and be elusive. There should be rewards for needing to get into melee range.

Checkmath

Push.
Not that the thread will be forgotten and you guys think, that i do not need any feedback anymore.
Every feedback is welcome at anytime, so keep it going and bring me up to date, what you are thinking about the class.

jhall03

As a Stamplar PVP player, I’d like to see:

-More reliable jabs
-More reliable/animation change for toppling charge
-not so heavy reliance on bone pirate/stamina sustain

Mr_Nobody

technohic wrote: »

Just had a thought that I have had a long time ago and it was never really popular, but I feel like for Magplar (and DK as well probably) having a melee magicka weapon line would be great. With how light attacks have been buffed, and before that, heavy attacks restore resources of their respective resource pool they scale with; I feel like it has left behind magicka classes that have clasically relied on 1h and shield or just plain melee. Frost staff kind of gives that, poorly; but there is no damage magicka melee weapon. Since staffs are balanced for range and have the damage closer to a bow, there is nothing equivalent to 2h or dual wield that would compliment magicka melee.

Templars and DKs will always underperform sorcs and magblades at the ranged game as we do not have the kite and abilities to do so and be elusive. There should be rewards for needing to get into melee range.

A magicka melee weapon would also push more hybrids into play.

SugaComa

maxjapank wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Guys is this all feedback you got? Everything covered with the last meeting notes? I hardly can believe that.
Anyway once again, give me your feedback, just maybe for a while ignore jesus beam (gets buffed), rune focus (gets somehow buffed), solar barrage (buff and nerf), magplar dps capablities (comes with update 20) and stamplar sustain/support (also comes with update 20). I really want to hear about every other concern/problem you have with the class.

There is one thing that has been bugging me, and that's the Spear Wall passive - increase the amount of dmg you can block against melee attacks by 15%. If you ask most Magplars, I think their defensive bar is pretty much set with Rushed Ceremony, Cleansing Ritual, and Channeled Focus. The other two slots will likely be Mist, Entropy, Sun Fire, etc. But what they won't be is a skill from the Aedric Spear line. So we are often missing out on that passive because the defensive bar is where we are more likely to block.

There was a time when Templars would slot Spear Shards or Sun Shield, thus benefiting from that passive. But with the stun removal from Spear Shards, that skill has lost its luster. And Sun Shield isn't really potent being tied to health.

It just feels strange to me that we have a "block passive" that's pretty much tied to an offensive spell tree. If you moved that passive to the Restoring Light tree, I think just about every Templar would benefit from the passive. Just my thoughts.

Welcome for anyone else to jump in with their thoughts, too

It's posts like this that make me tear up ... So nice knowing others understand the problems that we templars have ... My Templar in PvP runs only two none class skills... Mage light for stun protection from steal attacks and one other spot that is switched up between rapids, or one of the two psijic skills I like but I get so frustrated knowing I'm losing out on passives cos I just can't slot a skill on the bar cos it makes no sense

Drdeath20

Dark flare just recently recieved 3 nerfs. I know i brought this up on discord but the squeaky wheel...

Its defile duration was reduced, this was a unnecessary small nerf. Knee jerk reaction, blanket nerf to all defiles.
The empower lost its function, this is an enormous nerf.
Now staffs count as 2 weapon pieces, another small nerf.

This skill needs to be looked at. I had a hard time fitting it on my bar when it had more appeal but now its a dead skill to me.

Solinur

I think the changes to weapon enchants are a relative nerf to magicka templars (most other magicka classes benefit more). One reason is the slower attack speed of templars (less light attacks) the other that we benefit less from them. (DK - burning, Sorc - lightning damage).

I still would like to see some improvements for Templar Tanks. Rune Focus is better now, but all the other defense oriented skills still need some love.
I generally think that if a class has a similar skill to a weapon or armor ability, it should be better or give some different utility. In that sense, something should be done to sun shield, nova and radial sweep. Additionally some sort of cc thats also useful in melee would be nice. Templars have a lot of slows, but I think there are too many convienient methods to counter this?

Vajrak

Sun Shield and Nova I could see, but Sweep....the Stam version is a bit lackluster, but the mag variant (Empowering Sweep) ---- that reduced damage can go a long way, and the uptime on it is easy to keep high, at least in PvE. In PvP, it does need some looking at, but even then I imagine just getting it to hit more consistently (which the reduced range of melee attacks will help, as it is wider than their range) would do a lot for it.

SunRaider

If they could cut the animation time of sweeps into half, mantaining the damage, that would help a lot against lagg and would be easyer to land.

mocap

new Solar Barrage is garrbage. Around 4K DPS loss for me. Switched to Vampire Bane. AOE DPS isn't like before, but single target DPS got better. I am a semi-fake healer )

cpuScientist

I would like to say it's nice that magPlar is now a viable ranged or melee choice for dps. Worst than nightblade obviously who isn't. But viable. Better than Sorc at range and tied with DK more or less in melee. But with the added benefit if making the toughest period of most fights... The execute phase shorter. I am somewhat happy with the buffs. But it's not quite there yet. Unless we are fine with all our marbles being tied to Radiant again, just for it to be nerfed.... AGAIN down the road.

TheNightflame

It'd be cool if templars got some sort of proc ability, night blades have 2 (incap and AW), sorcs have frags, dks have powerlash, wardens have infection. Cool for no reason other than another condition to play to and new visual icon.

technohic

There is a new speed meta with swift jewelry and it’s making jabs even harder to land. Hell; if you aren’t running Swift yourself, and your targets moving away from you, it’s pretty much gap closer or nothing and we are the slowest class.

Elsterchen

technohic wrote: »

There is a new speed meta with swift jewelry and it’s making jabs even harder to land. Hell; if you aren’t running Swift yourself, and your targets moving away from you, it’s pretty much gap closer or nothing and we are the slowest class.

... with an unreliable and slow gap-closer.

Agreed!

Personally I don't like the look of swift. One piece in this trait leaves my char in a somewhat strange jogging. But I know that is a visual (and very subjective) dislike, only. Maybe we get it smoothed out anyways.

Checkmath

Since there was a lot of disagreement and bad messages lately, especially in the class rep notes thread, i will post here a link to my notes i sent to the devs before the meeting:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JBnfFjYqXmNykCpF3PAIimB0lFXyzjRgKEJrLhidmls/edit?usp=sharing

This notes were handed in to the devs several days before our meeting, so they had time to read those notes. Afterwards we discussed about the stuff from the rep notes thread. Those things discussed are things they came up after reading the notes or things, they already had in mind for the next big update.

maxjapank

technohic wrote: »

There is a new speed meta with swift jewelry and it’s making jabs even harder to land. Hell; if you aren’t running Swift yourself, and your targets moving away from you, it’s pretty much gap closer or nothing and we are the slowest class.

I agree. And Toppling is missing much more due to this, too.

NBrookus

technohic wrote: »

There is a new speed meta with swift jewelry and it’s making jabs even harder to land. Hell; if you aren’t running Swift yourself, and your targets moving away from you, it’s pretty much gap closer or nothing and we are the slowest class.

A class that already has speed buffs or easy access to major expedition, or a race that is faster to begin with, gets more benefit from swift because it's a percentage. Plus stam has better access to sprint. If everyone ran 3 swift in pvp, magplar would still be the slow turtle.

And if you look at the sets that provide mobility buffs, they are all stamina based, except Skooma Smuggler. So if you are a lizard magplar you can run infused potion glyphs to get Major Expedition, but then you can't run swift.

And no, Race Against Time isn't a solution; I tried speed mDK build and had to give up so much I 1) couldn't kill and 2) couldn't sustain combat.

cpuScientist

TheNightflame wrote: »

It'd be cool if templars got some sort of proc ability, night blades have 2 (incap and AW), sorcs have frags, dks have powerlash, wardens have infection. Cool for no reason other than another condition to play to and new visual icon.

Power of the light, purifying light is this kind of ability. Also incap is not a proc it's a single Target low cost ultimate we have an AOE low cost ultimate not as good obviously but those are not proc.

I'm gonna guess you meant Burst ability. Which is our power purfying light skill.

Drdeath20

Checkmath wrote: »

Since there was a lot of disagreement and bad messages lately, especially in the class rep notes thread, i will post here a link to my notes i sent to the devs before the meeting:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JBnfFjYqXmNykCpF3PAIimB0lFXyzjRgKEJrLhidmls/edit?usp=sharing

This notes were handed in to the devs several days before our meeting, so they had time to read those notes. Afterwards we discussed about the stuff from the rep notes thread. Those things discussed are things they came up after reading the notes or things, they already had in mind for the next big update.

This was a really great write up.

technohic

NBrookus wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

There is a new speed meta with swift jewelry and it’s making jabs even harder to land. Hell; if you aren’t running Swift yourself, and your targets moving away from you, it’s pretty much gap closer or nothing and we are the slowest class.

A class that already has speed buffs or easy access to major expedition, or a race that is faster to begin with, gets more benefit from swift because it's a percentage. Plus stam has better access to sprint. If everyone ran 3 swift in pvp, magplar would still be the slow turtle.

And if you look at the sets that provide mobility buffs, they are all stamina based, except Skooma Smuggler. So if you are a lizard magplar you can run infused potion glyphs to get Major Expedition, but then you can't run swift.

And no, Race Against Time isn't a solution; I tried speed mDK build and had to give up so much I 1) couldn't kill and 2) couldn't sustain combat.

It hits Stamplar as well if you already need to run medium to eek out more sustain and already giving up some damage. Just not a lot to trade for Swift.

Narvuntien

I am thinking I want more from Sun Shield, its a lot of mag for a very short lived shield and pointless damage.

I really want some group utility from Radiant Ward, shielding an ally like the dk shield or healing instead of damage or provide a useful group buff or anything other than that pointless AoE damage. Its just super underwhelming for what should be the main templar tank ability. Tank abilities need to provide group utility.

Then Blazing shield should be the damage morph, small shield more damage. I'd like it to have this keep its damage aura since you have repeatedly nerfed the explosion damage. If you are going to nerf its damage like you did it needs to be compensated for that lost of damage.

Kelces

After considering all the different comments aswell as my own experience with this, since I didn't use those abilities in a very long time too, I would say jabs in general is the most problematic. For both stamina and magicka templars, melee combat is very difficult.

technohic

Kelces wrote: »

After considering all the different comments aswell as my own experience with this, since I didn't use those abilities in a very long time too, I would say jabs in general is the most problematic. For both stamina and magicka templars, melee combat is very difficult.

I think you might be right. Against the average opponent, you want have a lot of issues, but when you run into good players, they take full advantage of your inability to turn or to move as fast. And even the fact that the main target is the one that takes the most damage and that’s not even super impressive but 2 dancing back and forth to take the secondary damage makes it laughable.

I know they don’t want suggestions on how to fix it but makes no it targeted and quicker would be a start.

Ariades_swe

I found that I do more dps with swift and race against time despite the loss of stats because my jabs can actually hit people that dont run expedition and swift themselves.
If they do run both they cant hit me either, even if they use intant melee attacks.
We just end up looking ridiculous running through each other for breaking los.
Pretty indicative of how bad jabs are at landing and how op swift and major expedition coupled together is atm.

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Since there was a lot of disagreement and bad messages lately, especially in the class rep notes thread, i will post here a link to my notes i sent to the devs before the meeting:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JBnfFjYqXmNykCpF3PAIimB0lFXyzjRgKEJrLhidmls/edit?usp=sharing

This notes were handed in to the devs several days before our meeting, so they had time to read those notes. Afterwards we discussed about the stuff from the rep notes thread. Those things discussed are things they came up after reading the notes or things, they already had in mind for the next big update.

@Checkmath Thank you for posting this! Great stuff.

I have stated my opinions prior in this thread and went unnoticed. So here it goes again. I'll keep it short and sweet. (Main Magplar - PVP Opinion disclaimer)

Templars NEED to be moved away from the "House" design...it just DOES. NOT. WORK anymore with the current changes to gampeplay and ZOS expectations to be more "mobile".

How I would like to see the Templar skill trees changed around?

1. Remove the Major Resolve/Ward from Rune Focus and ADD to base skill of Sun Shield. This puts Spear Wall passive back on both bars and gives us mobility. Morph 1 could be damage output & Morph 2 could be a damage shield or immunity to Roots/Snares. **Also gives us a unique look when using Major R/W with the glow!

2. Make Balanced Warrior...Balanced...Add Spell damage and Physical Resistance!

3. Cleansing Ritual - base skill to remove 3 effects. Morph 1 remains as damage over time. Morph 2 AOE snares 70%

4. Rune Focus - with Major Resolve/Ward moved to Sun Shield this could be a Self buff for Spell/Weapon damage (Currently only options to get this is Potions/Entropy/Rally...) Morph 1 could be offensive damage rune like Fire Rune and Morph 2 could be defensive (like the new changes already implemented on this)

5. Sun Fire - This skill is 100% great. Only Con it is fire damage while ALL Templar damaging skills are Magic...a bit odd, yeah? Change to Magic damage...

6. Radiant - great news with the damage buff, but a channeled execute just flat out sucks! Change the animation to be a ONE TIME HIT from the sky with a physical morph as well.

7. Solar Barrage - don't need to it follow caster...give this animation to Nova (next point). Make this multiple dark flares for reduced damage that target am AOE location on cast. (Think Volley)

8. Nova - follows caster and creates an explosion on an enemy death with the animation of solar barrage pulsating. INCREASE THE DAMAGE!

We need to be more mobile, or at least be able to immobilize quicker enemies. Templars SHOULD be somewhat tankier than a nightblade or sorc. In my experience having a templar main AND playing other classes is that Templars are THE squishiest class...Even Nightblades can out perform a templar as far as raw defense...I see daily Magblades 1vX and take virtually NO damage...