[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

irstarkey57

ERUPTION NEEDS AN AUDIT. Why on earth does this skill cost 5k and hit like a wet noodle. Compared to Templar’s ritual that cleanses 5 negative effects, snares, heals, and does damage. Like. Wtf. Shards and liquid lightning also way better. Not sure why you guys keep fuxking with eruption. It was damn near useless as it was. You all finally had it in a good spot the patch where you buffed shards, LL, eruption all together. Then you did all the weird audit bs and eruption got left behind the other ones. It needs help. Useless skill atm for the cost. Garbage damage. No use whatsoever in pvp either. Class identity....

WillhelmBlack

Dead skills, dead passives, dead class next patch.

/thread

rocc

Ragnarock41

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Dead skills, dead passives, dead class next patch.

/thread

rocc

ROCC
ROCC
ROCC
STUN

the1andonlyskwex

Cinder Storm needs major help.

1) The animation makes it look like an enemy DoT, so pugs unused to DK healers (i.e. almost all pugs) avoid it instead of standing in it.
2) Its area of effect is too small. In many fights, it can only heal one target because people can't stack tightly enough on the tank without getting one-shotted by boss damage. Compared to other, similar, skills (Refreshing Path, Grand Healing, Cleansing Ritual) its area of effect is also small.
3) Its secondary effect synergizes poorly with healing. Unlike other ground targeted heals, Cinder Storm has a secondary effect that impacts enemies, instead of the people being healed. To make matters worse, the small area of effect makes the snare even lless useful because you can't use it to any advantage without running outside of the heal.

On the upside, the amount of healing it does is great (when people manage to stand in it), and the long duration can be useful in certain niche situations (although that's balanced by the high cost, which makes it significantly less useful in more mobile fights).

As far as solutions go, I think the fix is to decouple Cinder Storm further from Eruption. The snare makes sense on a DoT, and the small area of effect is clearly necessary to balance the snare (although at some point it becomes so small as to be useless). Similarly, the animation makes sense for a DoT, but not a HoT. I would propose increasing the radius to something like 7m (which still leaves it smaller than most other AoE heals), and replacing the snare with one of the minor buffs (my preference would be minor courage, but I could see that being too much). Along with these changes, I would also recommend replacing the animation with something larger that won't be as easily mistaken for ground AoE (maybe an actual cloud of Ash/Cinders).

the1andonlyskwex

I totally forgot about Fragmented Shield when I made my last post about Cinder Storm. Cinder Storm is at least usable (I slot it because I'm stubborn and like using class skills, even though Illustrious Healing is better). Fragmented Shield isn't even worth slotting.

Assuming Fragmented Shield is intended as a healer morph (I imagine tanks would prefer Igneous Shield and DPS wouldn't use Obsidian Shield at all), it's unbelievably bad.

First, the shield scales off of max health instead of max Magicka and spell damage. This makes the shield pathetically weak for a healer.

Second, the major mending sounds good, but its duration isn't that much longer than what I get from Restoration Staff heavy attacks, and between Molten Armaments and DK sustain I'm heavy attacking anyway.

All told, Fragmented Shield basically costs 4000 Magicka for a tiny group damage shield and a buff I'm already getting elsewhere. It's just not worth slotting at all.

Fortunately, the fix for this problem is easy: Make it scale with max Magicka and spell power.

BNOC

irstarkey57 wrote: »

ERUPTION NEEDS AN AUDIT. Why on earth does this skill cost 5k and hit like a wet noodle. Compared to Templar’s ritual that cleanses 5 negative effects, snares, heals, and does damage. Like. Wtf. Shards and liquid lightning also way better. Not sure why you guys keep fuxking with eruption. It was damn near useless as it was. You all finally had it in a good spot the patch where you buffed shards, LL, eruption all together. Then you did all the weird audit bs and eruption got left behind the other ones. It needs help. Useless skill atm for the cost. Garbage damage. No use whatsoever in pvp either. Class identity....

At least be honest about what other classes skills do.

Cinder storm has a longer duration, heals for more (including to allies) given that it's every 1s rather than 2, (got it wrong, doesn't) deals damage that Extended Ritual (5 negative effect cleanse morph) doesn't and also snares for 40% more.
We get a bit increased healing based on current HP and get an 8% buff to small heals so it's probably not far off.

The snare by the way, is granted by a passive, but you left out that you get 1k stam back per cast of an EH ability.

Don't pick and choose.

the1andonlyskwex

@BNOC Cinder Storm does not do damage.

Comparing Cinder Storm to Extended Ritual:

Extended Ritual does roughly 80% of the healing that Cinder Storm does, over 6x the area.

Similarly, the Extended Ritual snare may be smaller in magnitude, but it's actually more useful than the Cinder Storm snare because of the vastly larger area of effect.

Extended Ritual also has the self cleanse and an extremely powerful synergy, while Cinder Storm has nothing even remotely comparable (you could try arguing that the stamina from the Helping Hands passive is worth something, but it really isn't for a magicka-based healer).

Furthermore, the longer duration of Cinder Storm is balanced by it's significantly higher cost, while it's small size often requires it to be re-cast/moved before it expires anyway (unlike Extended Ritual).

Lastly, don't even get me started about Ritual of Retribution, which basically has all of the same advantages as Extended Ritual, in addition to doing 80% of the damage that Eruption does (which again, Cinder Storm does not share).

Iskiab

Yes, cinder storm is bad and will always be bad. Values, cost, etc... doesn't matter, the area is too small to be effective outside pve trials. It could be free and I don't think I'd put it on my hotbar for pvp.

BlackMadara

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

the1andonlyskwex

BlackMadara wrote: »

How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

Dragonknight: 1
Necromancer: 2
Nightblade: 0
Sorcerer: 1
Templar: 2
Warden: 2

Iskiab

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

It depends, I think part of the game’s initial design was certain classes would be better at synergies. Like NBs only give synergies in ultimates for example.

One interesting thing they could do is make the snare linger. IDK, I always complain about refreshing path as a magblade but at least the major expedition lingers after people leave the path. It’s hard not to complain because ritual’s so good, but cinder is on the other extreme of being so bad.

One idea would be to have another ability move it for free. That would be neat and could help a lot.

BNOC

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Iskiab

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Two points:
1. Ritual is an iconic class ability for Templars, so in my opinion should always be the best
2. Cinder is that bad. The area is so small it can't even be used in dungeons, only PvE trials.

BNOC

Iskiab wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Two points:
1. Ritual is an iconic class ability for Templars, so in my opinion should always be the best
2. Cinder is that bad

I never said it wasn't better, I was just replying to the guy who was combining perks from both morphs into one as an argument for Cinder when he didn't need to.

I agree that Ritual is iconic but it has been nerfed so much over the years and still, Templar's can't afford to not run it otherwise they'll just die.

That's for Templar threads anyway.

Iskiab

BNOC wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Two points:
1. Ritual is an iconic class ability for Templars, so in my opinion should always be the best
2. Cinder is that bad

I never said it wasn't better, I was just replying to the guy who was combining perks from both morphs into one as an argument for Cinder when he didn't need to.

I agree that Ritual is iconic but it has been nerfed so much over the years and still, Templar's can't afford to not run it otherwise they'll just die.

That's for Templar threads anyway.

I know, I'm just saying my opinion. Ground effects amongst the classes naturally draw a comparison because of how people use them as a healer. People forget that Ritual is Templar's 'thing' so no other class should ever have a ground effect as powerful as ritual imo.

BlackMadara

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Allow me to correct the target of my main argument to Extended Ritual (ER.) I am speaking from a PvP perspective.

-It has a longer duration (24s vs 18s).
-Its total heal scaling (spell power scaling) is 5.06 with 12 ticks and the synergy heal, while cinder storm's is 5.15, with ER having a much larger radius (which is fine.) This is without considering any heal modifiers.
-As you corrected it does not deal damage. It doesn't help when are also combining morph effects to "push an agenda" until corrected.

Is there a problem with Templar needing Ritual? A relatively cheap cleanse is very powerful.

BNOC

BlackMadara wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Allow me to correct the target of my main argument to Extended Ritual (ER.) I am speaking from a PvP perspective.

-It has a longer duration (24s vs 18s).
-Its total heal scaling (spell power scaling) is 5.06 with 12 ticks and the synergy heal, while cinder storm's is 5.15, with ER having a much larger radius (which is fine.) This is without considering any heal modifiers.
-As you corrected it does not deal damage. It doesn't help when are also combining morph effects to "push an agenda" until corrected.

Is there a problem with Templar needing Ritual? A relatively cheap cleanse is very powerful.

No there's no problem with needing it, I love it; great skill. It's just not great in feedback threads that people ask for changes to their apples by comparing them to oranges and if changes were made based on feedback like that, the game would be silly.

The Ritual chat is for Templar threads as I said but either way, it's is still more expensive than free dots and effects that are applied very quickly (especially by you guys); the duration extension doesn't really matter because I'd be surprised if a single Templar is in a position in PvP where they can wait until it's expired to recast it and I personally don't dive enough in to it to know about spell power scaling.

I want to understand though so, are you saying that without the synergy being procced Cinder Storm would outheal a full duration Ritual (with smaller range ofc)? Or just that the ticks can be bigger on one of them?

Anyway, I got no complaints about either of the skills, just about the agenda.

BlackMadara

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@BNOC Do not spread misinformation. RoR is a much more efficient and impactful spell than cinder storm.

@Iskiab @the1andonlyskwex

I feel that ash cloud should get a radius increase to 8m with a snare reduction to 50%. This is the same size as Standard, which is still small enough that it can be dodge rolled out of, but large enough to kite around for the user. Then some type of buff for allies standing in it. I feel the existence of a synergy on talons is why ash cloud doesn't have a synergy. How many synergies do other classes have in non ultimate skills?

What misinformation? I was correcting someone else for doing that exact thing, muddling up 2 Templar morphs into one to push the Cinder Storm agenda and a part from the damage component which I got wrong (and had corrected long before your response), the rest is right.

Nobody cares about RoR and it's pure pish, if Cinder is worse then it's in a bad place, but difference is, you can play a DK without Cinder (as most do), go try play a Templar without Ritual.

On another note, you're probably talking about PvE and I'm not.

Allow me to correct the target of my main argument to Extended Ritual (ER.) I am speaking from a PvP perspective.

-It has a longer duration (24s vs 18s).
-Its total heal scaling (spell power scaling) is 5.06 with 12 ticks and the synergy heal, while cinder storm's is 5.15, with ER having a much larger radius (which is fine.) This is without considering any heal modifiers.
-As you corrected it does not deal damage. It doesn't help when are also combining morph effects to "push an agenda" until corrected.

Is there a problem with Templar needing Ritual? A relatively cheap cleanse is very powerful.

No there's no problem with needing it, I love it; great skill. It's just not great in feedback threads that people ask for changes to their apples by comparing them to oranges and if changes were made based on feedback like that, the game would be silly.

The Ritual chat is for Templar threads as I said but either way, it's is still more expensive than free dots and effects that are applied very quickly (especially by you guys); the duration extension doesn't really matter because I'd be surprised if a single Templar is in a position in PvP where they can wait until it's expired to recast it and I personally don't dive enough in to it to know about spell power scaling.

I want to understand though so, are you saying that without the synergy being procced Cinder Storm would outheal a full duration Ritual (with smaller range ofc)? Or just that the ticks can be bigger on one of them?

Anyway, I got no complaints about either of the skills, just about the agenda.

The HoT is stronger for Cinder, but the synergy allows similar total healing for a Ritual.

I agree that Cinder and Ritual shouldn't be considered at the same standard. Ritual is powerful and should stay that way. Cinder is just rather lackluster, mostly due to it's small radius, even with its large snare and good healing.

the1andonlyskwex

BlackMadara wrote: »

I agree that Cinder and Ritual shouldn't be considered at the same standard.

I have a problem with this statement. ZOS has made it very clear that they're balancing everything on an ability-by-ability basis. As long as that continues to be the case, Cinder and Ritual absolutely need to be held to the same standard. If/when ZOS eventually realizes the error of their ways and starts looking at balance more holistically, then we can start talking about holding different skills to different standards.

NekoN3ko

Magicka DK

- Lacks sufficient sustain for the average/new player - steep learning curve and lots of patience aka Skill to maintain.
- Mobility (unless you have RAT or Mist)

Overall it is just a difficult class for most in the magicka realm.

Iskiab

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

I agree that Cinder and Ritual shouldn't be considered at the same standard.

I have a problem with this statement. ZOS has made it very clear that they're balancing everything on an ability-by-ability basis. As long as that continues to be the case, Cinder and Ritual absolutely need to be held to the same standard. If/when ZOS eventually realizes the error of their ways and starts looking at balance more holistically, then we can start talking about holding different skills to different standards.

I think they must be looking at things holistically. Some game changes are mind boggling, I always assumed the issue with the goals and not being bad at math.

StShoot

Nice i cant even get the inglufing flames to 10 % in pve....thx zos for the classidentety you are awesome

Austinseph1

Bad and conditional sustain linked to rng and an ulti you get to use once every 3 mins, Maybe give a good amount of resources when a fully charged whip is consumed to support the Class mechanics or maybe just a cost reduction for all flame abilities to give more flame Identity and help sustain at the same time.

StShoot

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Bad and conditional sustain linked to rng and an ulti you get to use once every 3 mins, Maybe give a good amount of resources when a fully charged whip is consumed to support the Class mechanics or maybe just a cost reduction for all flame abilities to give more flame Identity and help sustain at the same time.

they could let burning embers reaply burning with each tick that would make that passive atleast somehowusefull and would bring on one lvl with the templar rune ( everything should be the same right ? )

Kronosphere

1. Our best ult only has 1 morph. shifting standard is outdated for all uses and when it would be good eye of storm ult from destro is better

2. sustain feels rough.

DreadDaedroth

Searing strike and its morphs are too expensive now please re-adjust.

juhislihis19

How is DK performing on the new patch? Mainly interested how stamDK fares.

Ryanoxx

1. Sustain (Skillcost too high and lack of Sustain Passives compared to other Classes that have Regen and Costreduction Passives and abilities like Dark Conversion)

Mag Dks have Battle Roar instead of an ability like Dark Conversion but nothing like a Costreduction Passive that gives enough sustain to sustain until you can use Battle Roar.

2. Magicka Hots (MagDks don't have any consistant heals to go offensive. On my Sorc I have Surge and Shields so I can go offensive, Nb has Cloak, and so on)

Simple Solution: Change Burning Embers. Instead of healing some of the damage dealt at the end make it heal 75% of the damage done with every Tik which would result in a small consistant heal of about 750 Health per Tik. To balance it make Embers an ability that can only be used on one enemy. [Embers costs too much btw]

I'm talking from a Smallscale and Soloperspective PvP

Davadin

juhislihis19 wrote: »

How is DK performing on the new patch? Mainly interested how stamDK fares.

quite good, very good if you are willing to adapt the playstyle.

DoT is out the window as a general rule, but some sets or weapons are still good, and the green claw is buffed. so if ur a DoT DK, u'll need to adjust ur style.

DPS compared to other class is fine. i don't know about being top dog in PvP anymore, but we're definitely a tough bunch.

PvE we're never the top dog, but build appropriately it's definitely not the worst class either.

TLDR; we're fine. better, even, when compared to some other classes.

Davadin

Kronosphere wrote: »

1. Our best ult only has 1 morph. shifting standard is outdated for all uses and when it would be good eye of storm ult from destro is better

2. sustain feels rough.

this. would love to see a buff to shifting standard or that whatever other morph to Corrosive Armor..... who the hell even uses that?