Let's talk about the MMR...

Morgul667

There is also something i dont understand sometimes i queue and the by does not pop so i leave queue and requeue right away then the bg pops right away

Joy_Division

Interesting thesis.

From my anecdotal perspective, it could be correct. I don't q up fro BGs very often, but when I do I usually get pitted against a 4 very skilled players on a premade team that frustrates me so much that I go PvE quest immediately afterward.

The population pool isn't high enough to have quality matches.

CatchMeTrolling

Regarding the waiting time could it also be the simple fact you can now choose what mode you want slowing down the queue? Meaning the wait time for someone doing grab bag and deathmatch would be different, then the system would have to put premades and other things into the equation.

Thogard

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Regarding the waiting time could it also be the simple fact you can now choose what mode you want slowing down the queue? Meaning the wait time for someone doing grab bag and deathmatch would be different, then the system would have to put premades and other things into the equation.

I doubt it, because grab bag would include deathmatch. It’s the same as how if you queue for a daily random pledge, you’re really likely to get one of the undaunted pledges for that day. If there were teams queueing specifically for land grab or flag games then you’d be right, but I don’t think that’s the case.

CatchMeTrolling

Thogard wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Regarding the waiting time could it also be the simple fact you can now choose what mode you want slowing down the queue? Meaning the wait time for someone doing grab bag and deathmatch would be different, then the system would have to put premades and other things into the equation.

I doubt it, because grab bag would include deathmatch. It’s the same as how if you queue for a daily random pledge, you’re really likely to get one of the undaunted pledges for that day. If there were teams queueing specifically for land grab or flag games then you’d be right, but I don’t think that’s the case.

What I meant was we don't know the stats behind who's queuing for what, although deathmatch seems like it could be the most popular it might not be. It could be domination or crazy king, so the people queuing for deathmatch exclusively could have longer waiting. While a good amount of players are still grab bagging getting whatever is available.

Diddly_D_Potatoes

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Regarding the waiting time could it also be the simple fact you can now choose what mode you want slowing down the queue? Meaning the wait time for someone doing grab bag and deathmatch would be different, then the system would have to put premades and other things into the equation.

I doubt it, because grab bag would include deathmatch. It’s the same as how if you queue for a daily random pledge, you’re really likely to get one of the undaunted pledges for that day. If there were teams queueing specifically for land grab or flag games then you’d be right, but I don’t think that’s the case.

What I meant was we don't know the stats behind who's queuing for what, although deathmatch seems like it could be the most popular it might not be. It could be domination or crazy king, so the people queuing for deathmatch exclusively could have longer waiting. While a good amount of players are still grab bagging getting whatever is available.

Although at a particular momemt you might not know how many are queued for a specific match type, you can infer from the leaderboard scores that deathmatch is queued for more than the others. Just look at the minimum score to get onto the deathmatch leaderboard compared to land grab and flag games.

CatchMeTrolling

Diddly_D_Potatoes wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Regarding the waiting time could it also be the simple fact you can now choose what mode you want slowing down the queue? Meaning the wait time for someone doing grab bag and deathmatch would be different, then the system would have to put premades and other things into the equation.

I doubt it, because grab bag would include deathmatch. It’s the same as how if you queue for a daily random pledge, you’re really likely to get one of the undaunted pledges for that day. If there were teams queueing specifically for land grab or flag games then you’d be right, but I don’t think that’s the case.

What I meant was we don't know the stats behind who's queuing for what, although deathmatch seems like it could be the most popular it might not be. It could be domination or crazy king, so the people queuing for deathmatch exclusively could have longer waiting. While a good amount of players are still grab bagging getting whatever is available.

Although at a particular momemt you might not know how many are queued for a specific match type, you can infer from the leaderboard scores that deathmatch is queued for more than the others. Just look at the minimum score to get onto the deathmatch leaderboard compared to land grab and flag games.

You naturally get more points in deathmatch that's why, even when Bg's first dropped this was the case.

wheem_ESO

I've been queueing randoms, and a big majority of the games now are Death Match. There may be a handful of players that specifically go for the Flag and/or Land Grab games, but the vast majority are either in the random queue, or Death Match exclusively (and some of those in the random are only doing that until they get the daily, then switching to Death Match).

Even queueing in the wee hours this morning, I was able to get games quite quickly. Probably 2/3 to 3/4 of them were against the same 4 man premade (with names I didn't recognize), but at least they weren't running dedicated heals and guard. Most games were starting with 1 or 2 teams having only 3 players, but it didn't seem to take as long as usual for a 4th to get in. I doubt that there's any sort of "relaxing" of MMR matchmaking requirements based on time of day, so I'm wondering if it may be an issue during prime time because the queue system is more interested in creating new games for the larger number of players, and not prioritizing "in-progress" games that aren't full.

The MMR system was doing a really poor job of team balancing, though. Several of the games against non-premades were total blowouts, where my team looked like a "high end" premade vs randoms; winning a Death match 510-75-45, or winning a Crazy King game with 1 death for the entire team and the "worst" player having a total of 30 assists + killing blows (and not through just ignoring objectives and 4v1 Death Matching).

Thogard

yeah, I've actually noticed my average queue time go down across the boards.

Makes me think the thing is more dynamic than i assumed.

Gives me hope.

Now if i can just verify that MMR can go down...

mlsweet

@Thogard Great work, thanks for publishing!

I like Kal's suggestion of smaller time intervals or increased ranges of available MMRs being implemented in the que rather than the longer ones we are seeing at the moment. Aside from shorter pregame wait times, it would likely help fill teams with games already in progress, which at the moment either stay lopsided for far too long, or end prematurely because the timer ticks out before the que can even fill the game with players. Those two match scenarios are deflating when you've waited 30-60 minutes in the que.


Longer wait times and mid-game player allocation may become less common as the population's average MMRs even out, but I doubt I need to comment on the efficiency of that, if it was intentional by design. Especially in the first two weeks of roll out when anticipation is at its highest.

Blobsky

Thogard wrote: »

yeah, I've actually noticed my average queue time go down across the boards.

Makes me think the thing is more dynamic than i assumed.

Gives me hope.

Now if i can just verify that MMR can go down...

Interesting comnent for you - my templar win rate is over 95% and KD well over 10 (Nerf MagPlar) with a tonne of games. However, there is a guy with 400K medals this week alone that my warden got put with on its 4th ever game, so total cant count. My guess is that all factors likely contribute. I doubt it is average medals as my games are a lot tougher now, mostly solo with awful pugs vs premade of top players, so I play very slow and carefully ending with all teams on fairly low medals.

Note I queue solo probably 2/3 of my games.

My queues are also gradually getting faster btw, and I see a few more strong players in lobby.

Thogard

Blobsky wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

yeah, I've actually noticed my average queue time go down across the boards.

Makes me think the thing is more dynamic than i assumed.

Gives me hope.

Now if i can just verify that MMR can go down...

Interesting comnent for you - my templar win rate is over 95% and KD well over 10 (Nerf MagPlar) with a tonne of games. However, there is a guy with 400K medals this week alone that my warden got put with on its 4th ever game, so total cant count. My guess is that all factors likely contribute. I doubt it is average medals as my games are a lot tougher now, mostly solo with awful pugs vs premade of top players, so I play very slow and carefully ending with all teams on fairly low medals.

Note I queue solo probably 2/3 of my games.

My queues are also gradually getting faster btw, and I see a few more strong players in lobby.

Very interesting. Do you remember how long you were waiting for before you got into that match?

Also, how many games did you play on your new warden before you started getting the top-tier premades as opponents?

Blobsky

Thogard wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

yeah, I've actually noticed my average queue time go down across the boards.

Makes me think the thing is more dynamic than i assumed.

Gives me hope.

Now if i can just verify that MMR can go down...

Interesting comnent for you - my templar win rate is over 95% and KD well over 10 (Nerf MagPlar) with a tonne of games. However, there is a guy with 400K medals this week alone that my warden got put with on its 4th ever game, so total cant count. My guess is that all factors likely contribute. I doubt it is average medals as my games are a lot tougher now, mostly solo with awful pugs vs premade of top players, so I play very slow and carefully ending with all teams on fairly low medals.

Note I queue solo probably 2/3 of my games.

My queues are also gradually getting faster btw, and I see a few more strong players in lobby.

Very interesting. Do you remember how long you were waiting for before you got into that match?

Also, how many games did you play on your new warden before you started getting the top-tier premades as opponents?

Ive still only done those 4 games on warden. Last night no queue over 5 mins

CO_Gibbs

Thogard wrote: »

yeah, I've actually noticed my average queue time go down across the boards.

Makes me think the thing is more dynamic than i assumed.

Gives me hope.

Now if i can just verify that MMR can go down...

I did notice a couple relatively quick Qs (20ish minutes) on my high MMR Warden (maybe 1k-1500 games played?).

I know we spoke about this briefly in game last night, but has anyone from ZOS actually offered any background into how this system is supposed to work?

On both my high and low MMR toons I'm getting tons of premades while solo q'ing. In fact, I'd say almost exclusively premades. If the original intent was to separate solo and group q'ers, I'm wondering if there is an account-wide variable we have yet to consider. I have a hundred or so games played on my NB, but I end up going against a staggering amount of 4-man premades as a solo q'er on a 3 man.

Diddly_D_Potatoes

Is it possible to get relegated? Would that make your queue times more palatable?

CO_Gibbs

Diddly_D_Potatoes wrote: »

Is it possible to get relegated? Would that make your queue times more palatable?

I dont think so. Since I've been exclusively solo qing in the past week on my main I'm still getting nothing but premades. Literally nothing but 3+man groups in each game.

Instead of quick q's to the slaughter they are 40+minutes, I'm not making an alt and grinding fighters guild and undaunted just so I don't have to wait an hour for a Q. It's worse today than it has was yesterday.

I'm a hair away from unsubbing and looking for a different game. AFAIK there has been no insightful response from ZOS.

Thogard

CO_Gibbs wrote: »

Diddly_D_Potatoes wrote: »

Is it possible to get relegated? Would that make your queue times more palatable?

I dont think so. Since I've been exclusively solo qing in the past week on my main I'm still getting nothing but premades. Literally nothing but 3+man groups in each game.

Instead of quick q's to the slaughter they are 40+minutes, I'm not making an alt and grinding fighters guild and undaunted just so I don't have to wait an hour for a Q. It's worse today than it has was yesterday.

I'm a hair away from unsubbing and looking for a different game. AFAIK there has been no insightful response from ZOS.

But what’s interesting is that when I play my stamden, I can get matches against pugs. About 25% of the time... it has been going up.

So if we assume that my stamden is a lot older than yours, we can actually rule out age or cumulative medal score as the sole MMR factor.

I’m really starting to think that @Mojomonkeyman is right and that it’s a factor of age and win rate.

Orange_fire_dragon

I perform pretty average, sometimes I get those players that have no idea what they are doing but still more than half of my matches I am put against 2 premade teams when my team is nothing but solo ques.

It is pretty annoying tbh and now I am slightly discouraged of playing with friends because if my luck solo que is like that, I dont want to see duo or trio que potential of enemies I get

Aznox

@Thogard as a soloqueuer I was getting exactly the experience you described (being a filler for premade vs premade) in your first post during the first week or so after patch but it does seem less extreme/systematic since a few days ago.

ZoS probably doesn't need a client patch to change matchmaking algorithm, so maybe we should try not to give to much credit to past observations and focus on current trends instead.

Blobsky

My queues are now even worse... I have 40min group queues or 2min solo queues. However, my solo queues are 100% of the time me and 2 absolutely awful players vs a 4man premade or 3-4 top solo queuers. Group mmr is definitely considered.

Thogard

I am still racking up the L's on my stamden as i get thrown solo against 4 mans and don't bother to play objectives. The MMR hasn't seemed to go down yet, still a high K/D though.

But my magplar, which i group queue with, still gets relatively fast group queues (as long as we queue low MMR characters, and we determine that they're low MMR by how long the queue system makes us wait)... that magplar has won a ton of matches recently and still has a higher win rate than my stamden, but his K/D ratio isn't the highest because he's full group healer specced.

I can swap out my magplar for my stamden in the same group and it triples the wait time.

He usually has lower medal scores though, and also a lower K/D. BUt he's closing in on 300 games which is not a small amount.

also i'm thinking that there might be a different algorithm on PC EU than on PC NA and maybe ZOS is testing them out to see which one is better... a lot of the data coming from EU in this thread contradicts the data coming from NA, and vice versa.

Or... it could just be something really complex that we can't pinpoint with the limited data we have ....

usmcjdking

I raised this issue during Morrowind PTS a year ago and essentially got laughed off. Solo queuers would be at a massive disadvantage to premade groups if there was no strict solo queue option.

Other games have alleviated this issue by having a strict solo queue option - meaning that there are NO groups and the players are distributed appropriately to ensure an even MMR spread amongst the teams. This happens dynamically sometimes, me and Thogard have literally been in some razor thin matches, but not often enough to keep my attention.

Give an option for strict solo queue.

ShadowMonarch

Thogard wrote: »

I am still racking up the L's on my stamden as i get thrown solo against 4 mans and don't bother to play objectives. The MMR hasn't seemed to go down yet, still a high K/D though.

This is my experience. KD/a is still about the same but Win rate is below 10% sense summerset. Queue hasn't changed in fact it might have gotten a little worse, when I am logged in now it takes very long for a game.

We need to find a way to confirm if MMR can even go down/has a reset based over time like monthly ect, or if it is a accumulative thing. I didn't renew my sub and im waiting for it to be fixxed (or at the very least addressed) before I spend another dime on the game. Been playing other games with my time for the most part instead.

One of those things that if a ZoS-Dev SHOULD have already commented on if they cared about their player base instead of pumping $.

Horowonnoe

Thogard wrote: »

When you do queue for a BG on your Stam sorc, are you getting in matches with BG regulars or are you getting put with people you don’t recognize who are just queueing for their daily? Or maybe it alternates between both?

I think i have seen you. Might have killed you. And you killed me. : o

Thogard

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When you do queue for a BG on your Stam sorc, are you getting in matches with BG regulars or are you getting put with people you don’t recognize who are just queueing for their daily? Or maybe it alternates between both?

I think i have seen you. Might have killed you. And you killed me. : o

Yeah i'm a pretty common person to run into in BGs AFAIK my stamden has more BGs played than any other charcter on PC NA.

Mihael

The sad moment when you realize that Thogard has put more time and effort into trying to figure out how the mmr system works then the zos developers did making it


On a serious not it’s pretty ridiculous that not a single comment has been made about this thread from a developer @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Galalin

I have pretty much stopped playing BG's now its not worth trying to finish quests or waste the time trying to get into one. Still an hour queue and this system is just plain stupid. The lack of any response or communication from @ZoS is enough to just stop until something is changed and now that its free it likely they wont do anything. Have fun... maybe someday i will feel like smashing my face against the keyboard and queue.

Just wanted to point out how discriminatory this system is in case somehow ZoS didn't notice. With a higher MMR you cannot even get on, never mind compete on the leader boards and therefore cannot attain the rewards. Its a system that screws everyone the more they play in BG's. If this is where its going lets just finish it and have no winners, stop keeping score, take away the leader boards and just mail out participation medals each week.

Rant Over!

CatchMeTrolling

Still pretty early right now but I noticed my queue is taking longer, at first I got in pretty quick. But then my next matches started taking even longer after each match played. This is on the character that I’ve played the most bg matches on.

Dormiglione

Match Making systems can only become reliable, when there is a sort of feedback the users can give. One solution would be to ask everybody, after a match, a few questions with a rating from 1-5. Like waiting time, matches, difficulty, overall satisfaction.

There could be even more entry choices. For example, I would like just to play, even in really weak groups, because I am playing for the sake of game and fun, not for trophies. So, it would help a lot if I could adjust my virtual strength to rather level 18 than 708

Without feedback, even a clever system can't become better. And with better, I mean something like a user-adjustable PID for a number of criteria.

A PID is commonly used in robotics, to keep a certain standard value compared to the environment. For example, a balancing robot uses a PID to move accurately wheels or legs.

In a Match Maker system, a PID can gradually adapt to a number of parameters found in a queue, and the speed of adaptation determines how long people have to wait. This speed can be influenced by the feedback, because if a certain choice is taken more often, the PID can filter other choices more efficiently.

However, there will be no perfect choices ever. Whatever the system is, even with AI, there will be always somebody not liking the way it works.

Thogard

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Still pretty early right now but I noticed my queue is taking longer, at first I got in pretty quick. But then my next matches started taking even longer after each match played. This is on the character that I’ve played the most bg matches on.

My wait time has gone way up on my stamden too, but I think that might be because there aren’t as many premades queueing (because they’re sick of the wait times too).

The longer you wait the more flexible your match can be, so I think my stamden is 20 min away from being in the same MMR as some premades but 40 min away from being in the same MMR as the solo queuers, so nownthat there are fewer premades I have to wait longer to hit the solo queue.