Let's talk about the MMR...

DarkAedin

Thogard wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

Just did a 3 man premade with my 2nd most bgd toon, my wifes first and second bg ever, and my budder who is a console rerole and under 50 games played.

Gilliam was solo q'd on the other team on a toon hes never done bgs on b4 with 2 sub 250cp players.
3rd team was a full premade 2 shotting everyone.
We got them twice in a row, my wifes never seen a bg b4. Great job zos.

who was in the other premade that was winning?

I do toon names not account names but ill pm u

Edit: fights were fishy, their nb was merc resovling us back to back w/o light attacks

Lichbourne90

FWIW I play on xbox with very high latency (average 700 due to satellite) so as u can imagine my KDR and scores aren't always fantastic. My main has been a regular in BGs since morrowind and has grand champion and what have u. My main seems to have the same wait time and opponents as my 6 other characters who I am just now beginning to rotate through BGs for the daily rewards. Not sure if that helps but that has been my experience so far.

Thogard

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

FWIW I play on xbox with very high latency (average 700 due to satellite) so as u can imagine my KDR and scores aren't always fantastic. My main has been a regular in BGs since morrowind and has grand champion and what have u. My main seems to have the same wait time and opponents as my 6 other characters who I am just now beginning to rotate through BGs for the daily rewards. Not sure if that helps but that has been my experience so far.

That helps immensely, thank you. Are you fighting the same caliber of opponent?

Lichbourne90

Thogard wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

FWIW I play on xbox with very high latency (average 700 due to satellite) so as u can imagine my KDR and scores aren't always fantastic. My main has been a regular in BGs since morrowind and has grand champion and what have u. My main seems to have the same wait time and opponents as my 6 other characters who I am just now beginning to rotate through BGs for the daily rewards. Not sure if that helps but that has been my experience so far.

That helps immensely, thank you. Are you fighting the same caliber of opponent?

Yes. Same names routinely.

xericdx

Please look at these 3 posts together.

They all make sense individually. However, they require solutions that push into different, even opposite, directions.

For example:
Separating completely the solo/group queue will solve the premade problem but: 1- will make some waiting time possibly longer, 2- Will make it a nightmare for casuals to play with their wives/husbands/friends, etc. as they will regularly be pitted against competitive premade,
Decreasing the MMR value quickly will reduce queue time but it will pit more likely players with very different skill level. Considering the number of times I have been called pre-made (and was solo) I believe this is a even bigger problem than the pre-made thing.

I believe the current logic, a compromise between the different issues, is the good one (character rating + increase if grouped). I think it is normal that it takes some time to adjust properly but it would help to know more how the calculations are made. If not the exact number, at least what is considered (time played recently? How recently? Medals? Is account exp. factored in somehow? ) .

I think that we all agree we would like to be put together with players of similar skill level AND we do not want to wait hours in queue. How the balance can be found with the current player base for BG... Don't know. Hopefully we can have a constructive debate knowing the criteria at play and proposing ideas that do not screw that or that other category.

For example.... Any chance to separate queues like Trials (Vet, +1, +2) and not simply premadeVSsolos? Or still bad idea as the ones without the right skills will feel ostracized (I notice in PvP people tend to scream louder than PVE for this kind of differences)

....and all this assuming that the long queues are not simply caused by some bugs/mistakes in coding...

DarkAedin wrote: »

Just did a 3 man premade with my 2nd most bgd toon, my wifes first and second bg ever, and my budder who is a console rerole and under 50 games played.

Gilliam was solo q'd on the other team on a toon hes never done bgs on b4 with 2 sub 250cp players.
3rd team was a full premade 2 shotting everyone.
We got them twice in a row, my wifes never seen a bg b4. Great job zos.

Solariken wrote: »

I have to say bg's have been super not fun lately, I feel pretty discouraged from playing at all. I wait 30 minutes in queue only to be put in a team of 3 versus two full-stack cancer premades running a healbot and guard and Time Stop.

And when I finally do get in one that seems to be all PUGs, every gd mother is running Sload's and Spin2Win builds or spamming Fury executes at you from the bushes. Damage is so high that most times someone dies within 2-3 seconds of engaging even 1v1. It's stupid. What is this Call of Duty?

Firstly, if you queue solo, this asinine MMR wait penalty SHOULD NOT APPLY @ZOS_BrianWheeler - get it freaking fixed. Your system was crap before but you've taken it to a whole new level of terrible.

Secondly, just SEPARATE the gd queues already. One queue is for solo and groups of 2, the other is for premade groups of 3 and 4. They should never mix.

IT IS NOT THAT HARD ZOS. Please.

Maulkin wrote: »

What I’m seeing atm is that all the top EU players have resorted to playing their alts cause the queues on their mains are too long. And forget about grouping. You try to make a premade on your mains and you’re looking at upwards of 40m queues. Such a shambles.

I’ve said it before. You can’t have queues longer than the games. Can’t spend more than half your time queuing. It’s criminal. Max game duration is 15 mins. After 10-12? mins in the queue the MMR needs to back the f... off and let you into the next lobby whether it’s against Muhammad Ali or Ali G. I don’t care.

This needs to get sorted pronto, cause we can’t be rolling a new toon every 2-3 weeks just to be able to get into BG games.

TheYKcid

Another incremental patch, another week without adjustments to the matchmaking system...

Minno

They really need open world arenas where all your friends join one 12 man team which gets randomly generated who goes on which team but the map location is a real world location so you can que for content similar to how you can open world que into dungeons/trials.

Or design Duels in such a way where one team's leader challenges another team's leader with the result of both teams being able to fight, Dueling style.

otherwise they are trying to make BGs more than what they are, quick slugfests of randomly qued players, often solo.

Saturn

ecru wrote: »

Kinda been over this a bunch of times on the forums. How do you implement MMR with three teams? Balanced matchmaking with three teams means that you lose two thirds of your games. This would be better for people right now who are screwed by the matchmaking system and end up going 1-5, but if they managed to implement it properly, would you personally be okay with losing two thirds of your games, even with a stacked premade?

The three team system is broken from the start and good matchmaking only averages out the misery caused by it.

BTW, I don't actually believe the current matchmaking system is working as it should be, because I know that players are not losing two thirds of their games. Some are winning 90%, while others are losing 90%.

@ecru
Exactly. It's already hard to make a good balanced system with just two teams, but attempting to do it with three is nigh on impossible, and once again begs the questions: "Why did ZOS actually think that 4v4v4 would work in a balanced Battelground gamemode?"

The main idea behind three teams (that ZOS themselves have said), is that if one team is stronger than the other two, those two teams would work together in order to take down the stronger team, and in this way balance could be achieved. In practice this usually never happens, least of all in Battlegrounds with such small teams.

I really do think small-scale PvP in ESO is some of the best PvP available in an MMO, but the three team setup is a bad decision, and they should have kept it out of Battlegrounds. ZOS however remains stubborn in their goal to perpetually reinvent the wheel, and never learn from other successful MMOs; while it is part of their strength, it is also a big part of their failures.

Blobsky

I've entiry quit BGs now, until any change is made. My lowest queues are 1hour minimum, and if it even pops it is ALWAYS 2 ultrascrubs and me vs 2 full premades. The only other person I see with queues this bad is @Heresyall whom I've tried to queue with to give premades a fair run, and we both just gave up waiting.

Toc de Malsvi

I don't think Xbox is suffering so badly from long que times, although it might be that the population is more balanced. I get the occasional long que but otherwise its usually only a few minutes. I'm consistently playing against players in the top 25-50 of the leaderboards, many of which I know to be very good.

I'm still getting pretty good scores as an aggregate, I only really suffer when I'm grouped with teammates who only gank and run the whole match. I'm not actually built to run away for 90% of the match. Game performance has been just abysmal though, when players are not invisible there is often crippling lag. Not to say there aren't decent matches in there, just that there are just as many worthless matches between the decent to good ones.

Maulkin

Blobsky wrote: »

I've entiry quit BGs now, until any change is made. My lowest queues are 1hour minimum, and if it even pops it is ALWAYS 2 ultrascrubs and me vs 2 full premades. The only other person I see with queues this bad is @Heresyall whom I've tried to queue with to give premades a fair run, and we both just gave up waiting.

I’ve seen Heresya on his mageblade alt I think. In general can’t play main chars now. I’m the same with magsorc. The only alternative is to play new chars. Which is inspiration to learn new classes but it’s still terribly sad.

They need to revert the change and basically put a 3-4 man premade queue and a solo duo queue and be done with it. Not enough players for an aggressive MMR. It has backfired.

On the plus side they seem to have fixed the loading screens + invis players bug. Indidn’t Have it yesterday. That’s one out of 3 core issues solved. Second being the MMR and 3rd the aprocalypse with Sloads and similar crap absolutely everywhere.

Make BGs Great Again!

Blobsky

Maulkin wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

I've entiry quit BGs now, until any change is made. My lowest queues are 1hour minimum, and if it even pops it is ALWAYS 2 ultrascrubs and me vs 2 full premades. The only other person I see with queues this bad is @Heresyall whom I've tried to queue with to give premades a fair run, and we both just gave up waiting.

I’ve seen Heresya on his mageblade alt I think. In general can’t play main chars now. I’m the same with magsorc. The only alternative is to play new chars. Which is inspiration to learn new classes but it’s still terribly sad.

They need to revert the change and basically put a 3-4 man premade queue and a solo duo queue and be done with it. Not enough players for an aggressive MMR. It has backfired.

On the plus side they seem to have fixed the loading screens + invis players bug. Indidn’t Have it yesterday. That’s one out of 3 core issues solved. Second being the MMR and 3rd the aprocalypse with Sloads and similar crap absolutely everywhere.

Make BGs Great Again!

True you probably have the same as us lol

Feanor

I just don’t get what’s so hard about doing a ELO based rating, weight Teams accordingly, and have acceptable queue windows within ELO ranges.

Maulkin

Feanor wrote: »

I just don’t get what’s so hard about doing a ELO based rating, weight Teams accordingly, and have acceptable queue windows within ELO ranges.

All these mechanisms start to fail when the number of participants is below certain thresholds. There's not enough people within acceptable range. Reality is most ESO players are either questing/doing dailies or PvEing or (if they are PvPers) in Cyrodiil. The amount of players actively queuing for BGs is fairly small.

From that set of players, the hardcore BG players are maybe 50 at best. They basically all know eachother at this stage. That's too small a number. When they are online, you always get the same opponents. When they are not online/queuing, the rest of them either:
a) can't get a game to save their lives. Or like @Blobsky said
b) you get put in a group of randoms with very low ranking against a premade.

Scenario b) is soul destroying. You are being used as a counter-weight to artificially increase your team's ranking and to hopefully carry them. When in fact with the amount of damage going around in no-CP, especially when it's coming from a coordinated group, reality is you can't carry [snip]. You can't help the 200CP dude (CP used as measure of experience here, since CPs don't matter) who is running solo, does not know the BG mechanics like Sigils and is faceplanting into 100k instant damage and dying. You can't help a dude that at the end of a 10 minute deathmatch has 70k damage and 15k healing with the average being upwards of 500k.

You play a game knowing you'll lose and only hoping for a positive K/D ratio for yourself and hopefully a decent score. It's an exercise in futility and frustration.

ecru

Feanor wrote: »

I just don’t get what’s so hard about doing a ELO based rating, weight Teams accordingly, and have acceptable queue windows within ELO ranges.

It's the third team. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe available matchmaking algorithms (glicko-2, ELO) can account for a third team. ZOS is probably just winging it here unless they hired a really good mathematician who can also code really well to sort things out.

30 minute to 1 hour solo queue times absolutely should not be a thing regardless of how many teams there are if you're solo queueing. For a full premade of top 1% MMR players, 30 minutes could be expected because you have to be queued up against two other teams that have equal MMR in the case of a premade or higher MMR in the case of solo queuers, but if you're queueing solo? Never. In Rift I would have to wait maybe 5-10 minutes max with an ELO in the top 1% and even then games were "rough" in the sense that I was queued in with bad pugs due to my high ELO vs solid players/a premade on the other team. Rift also had a much smaller playerbase than ESO, but the system they used still managed to both create fast matches with a small pool of players and lead to very good outcomes in the form of a 50% +-5% win rate for the majority of players.

What's happening right now is unacceptable IMO. ZOS has way more time and way more money to make this work than Trion Worlds ever did, but they haven't.

Flips

I have lua installed and noticed most friendly players have the same alliance rank as myself. Enemys I've looked at the same also. Never seen a lvl50 so far, despite I see them all the time in cyrodiil.

Maulkin

Flips wrote: »

I have lua installed and noticed most friendly players have the same alliance rank as myself. Enemys I've looked at the same also. Never seen a lvl50 so far, despite I see them all the time in cyrodiil.

Rank 50 PvP char =/= Good MMR in BGs.

Actually most Grand Warlords shun BGs. Some because they prefer to run in large groups in Cyro (which incidentally is how most of them got the rank). Others because they don't like the no-CP environment in the BGs.

There's probably a handful of them that step into BGs frequently enough and they all well recognised, at least in EU.

Thogard

Maulkin wrote: »

Flips wrote: »

I have lua installed and noticed most friendly players have the same alliance rank as myself. Enemys I've looked at the same also. Never seen a lvl50 so far, despite I see them all the time in cyrodiil.

Rank 50 PvP char =/= Good MMR in BGs.

Actually most Grand Warlords shun BGs. Some because they prefer to run in large groups in Cyro (which incidentally is how most of them got the rank). Others because they don't like the no-CP environment in the BGs.

There's probably a handful of them that step into BGs frequently enough and they all well recognised, at least in EU.

and to add to that... because of the longer queue times on your "main" most people are playing their lower AR alts.

Feanor

ecru wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I just don’t get what’s so hard about doing a ELO based rating, weight Teams accordingly, and have acceptable queue windows within ELO ranges.

It's the third team. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe available matchmaking algorithms (glicko-2, ELO) can account for a third team. ZOS is probably just winging it here unless they hired a really good mathematician who can also code really well to sort things out.

30 minute to 1 hour solo queue times absolutely should not be a thing regardless of how many teams there are if you're solo queueing. For a full premade of top 1% MMR players, 30 minutes could be expected because you have to be queued up against two other teams that have equal MMR in the case of a premade or higher MMR in the case of solo queuers, but if you're queueing solo? Never. In Rift I would have to wait maybe 5-10 minutes max with an ELO in the top 1% and even then games were "rough" in the sense that I was queued in with bad pugs due to my high ELO vs solid players/a premade on the other team. Rift also had a much smaller playerbase than ESO, but the system they used still managed to both create fast matches with a small pool of players and lead to very good outcomes in the form of a 50% +-5% win rate for the majority of players.

What's happening right now is unacceptable IMO. ZOS has way more time and way more money to make this work than Trion Worlds ever did, but they haven't.

It’s not that hard. The multiplayer league for Civilization IV had a rating system based on Glicko 2 that allowed multiple teams vs each other. I know because I maintained the code base for a while.

ecru

Feanor wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I just don’t get what’s so hard about doing a ELO based rating, weight Teams accordingly, and have acceptable queue windows within ELO ranges.

It's the third team. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe available matchmaking algorithms (glicko-2, ELO) can account for a third team. ZOS is probably just winging it here unless they hired a really good mathematician who can also code really well to sort things out.

30 minute to 1 hour solo queue times absolutely should not be a thing regardless of how many teams there are if you're solo queueing. For a full premade of top 1% MMR players, 30 minutes could be expected because you have to be queued up against two other teams that have equal MMR in the case of a premade or higher MMR in the case of solo queuers, but if you're queueing solo? Never. In Rift I would have to wait maybe 5-10 minutes max with an ELO in the top 1% and even then games were "rough" in the sense that I was queued in with bad pugs due to my high ELO vs solid players/a premade on the other team. Rift also had a much smaller playerbase than ESO, but the system they used still managed to both create fast matches with a small pool of players and lead to very good outcomes in the form of a 50% +-5% win rate for the majority of players.

What's happening right now is unacceptable IMO. ZOS has way more time and way more money to make this work than Trion Worlds ever did, but they haven't.

It’s not that hard. The multiplayer league for Civilization IV had a rating system based on Glicko 2 that allowed multiple teams vs each other. I know because I maintained the code base for a while.

Weird, it makes no sense to me why matches are taking so long to form for solo queuers then.

HackTheMinotaur

I was super concerned about MMR changes but actually I have had no problems at all on console. In terms of matchmaking I rarely fight full groups when solo queued, and my main plays nothing but BGs, so in theory the MMR would be quite high on this character.

Queue times are also no longer than 5 minutes for me during peak hours.

Did the system get adjusted for console release? Sorry for the PC crowd on this one.

Betsararie

thogard gets all the**.

Thogard

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

Betsararie

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

oh wait, but you already know because you're a big fan of mine in game.

Thogard

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

oh wait, but you already know because you're a big fan of mine in game.

what's your @ name? i'm drawing a blank right now... long day lol.

Betsararie

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

oh wait, but you already know because you're a big fan of mine in game.

what's your @ name? i'm drawing a blank right now... long day lol.

@glasspot

Thogard

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

oh wait, but you already know because you're a big fan of mine in game.

what's your @ name? i'm drawing a blank right now... long day lol.

@glasspot

merandil?

Betsararie

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

thogard gets all the**.

i really knew what got censored out there lol. I can't tlel if you're giving me a compliment (thogard gets all the @ $ $) or an insult. pretty sure it's the former tho ... so thank you

oh wait, but you already know because you're a big fan of mine in game.

what's your @ name? i'm drawing a blank right now... long day lol.

@glasspot

merandil?

yeah

LokoMatic

Reporting in after another grudging week of testing. Same exact thing happening still on Xbox NA with horrible que times.
1 Que per every 30-45 minutes seems about right, with the extreme being 3 que'd matches in a span of about 4 hours. Entirely broken and there isn't much to do. Solo que is the same deal - constantly waiting and only playing against the same exact 2 teams every single match. Man I miss the old days

Mihael

I wonder if mmr rating transfers from below 50 bgs because I got a cp 42 and cp 77 on my team against a premade and another team that could have been a premade or just 4 good players, I was pretty mad at first but even though they died a lot they ended up being expert relic runners and we won lol