werewolves in summerset

Thraben

With "shut down" he meant permarooting and permasnaring you. No matter how much stam you have, if the other player knows your weakness, you have to kill him quickly, or you will lose.

Tasear wrote: »

How do feel about werewolves in group play?

1. In PvE, dungeon runs with 4 werewolves are fun

2. In PvE mixed groups, a werewolf has no place, unfortunately, because the real DDs do so much more damage.

3. In battlegrounds, a wolf pack should be viable.

4. In open PvP, Pack play is not really possible in Cyro at the moment, and even back when it was (before they fixed the duration bug), you really needed specialized armor and a fighting style similar to a real world pack, as you would meld instantly when attacking AoE damage based groups, or a bunch of archers. Though the fear of the PuGs when they saw 12 wolves charging towards them was priceless

3. In open PvP mixed groups, at least I will permit the use of the ulti for my StamSorcs after the patch to deter powerful ganking groups, and IF an enemy group is trying to avoid AoE damage by spreading out. Most of the time, they won´t be Werewolves, though, as AoE damage and CC spam is their bane, and because StamSorcs also have a lot of other things in groups to do (Borrowed Time, Negate, Steel Tornado, Rapids, Vigor with Troll King). This is however only possible because of the improved Ulti generation of StamSorcs due to the new Psijic Skill, Mend Wounds.

dsalter

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@dsalter How do you get "shut down really easily??" At least on my we I have 28. 5k HP, 49k Stam, 41k resistanc and 4.5k wd (Continious attack). My pelinals aptitude makes my heals strong af. Trust me you don't get shut down easily with those stats when you know what it doing. and the reason why ability costs are the highest in game, it's because the light attacks plus bleed do a lot of damage. Slow? Ever tried pushing down the joystick and sprinting? You'll be a lot faster when you do that... I can easily sustain my stamina in Werewolf Form with only 1.5k stamina.. My advice, heavy attack a lot more then you should have a lot less issues. To reduce the cost of breaking free or dodge rolls, invest at least 40 cp under warlord and tumbling. To make this short in all respects for your person, these mostly are L2P Issues that can be solved by asking a experienced werewolf player.

did you just assume my playstyle?

ok so "put CP points here", yeah, great idea, except one issue.
i dont play the pansy CP crutch PvP so CP wont have influence.

mobility again comes down to PvP, because snare are practically everywhere and stam poison will destroy you, not only that, but while you are sprinting, you are funneling away your stam and not fighting.
bonus round: most abilities with strong snares or roots are spammable from a range.

dodge+sprint cost again comes down to CP crutch mode. so thats 2 issues only solvable by investing CP.

heavy attacking often... in pvp... where you can be inturrupted in a split second. any semi competent PvPer will tell you throwing in heavy attacks while the enemy isn't CC'd will get you "rekt" as they call it, and rightfully so because it gives off this huge telegraph what your doing and it opens you up for a free debuff, no semi skilled player will ignore bashing that.

if this was PvE advice only, sure i'll take it, but if this was even a sly remark at PvP? i'm sorry but when 2 of the biggest issues are solved by investing into CP, you can bet everything else that doesnt depend on it will not suffer.

if werewolves were able to slot different abilities for different fights, sure, but we cant, because of the very narrowly focused skill set, weaknesses like being kited, easy to interrupt and burning resources shouldnt be so dominant.

x5 fortified brass x5 salvation (tho i'm currently working on transitioning into eternal hunt) 1 chudan (working on 2nd piece) and 1 pirate skeleton on a stam sorc.

the moment he transforms i'll either spend the time running or being burst down in 3-5 seconds.
on a good run i'll spend alot of time forcing my way through a zerg defiling them and fearing them to pieces.

Strider__Roshin

Lol as if werewolves were in a good spot before Summerset.

IlCanis_LupuslI

dsalter wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@dsalter How do you get "shut down really easily??" At least on my we I have 28. 5k HP, 49k Stam, 41k resistanc and 4.5k wd (Continious attack). My pelinals aptitude makes my heals strong af. Trust me you don't get shut down easily with those stats when you know what it doing. and the reason why ability costs are the highest in game, it's because the light attacks plus bleed do a lot of damage. Slow? Ever tried pushing down the joystick and sprinting? You'll be a lot faster when you do that... I can easily sustain my stamina in Werewolf Form with only 1.5k stamina.. My advice, heavy attack a lot more then you should have a lot less issues. To reduce the cost of breaking free or dodge rolls, invest at least 40 cp under warlord and tumbling. To make this short in all respects for your person, these mostly are L2P Issues that can be solved by asking a experienced werewolf player.

did you just assume my playstyle?

ok so "put CP points here", yeah, great idea, except one issue.
i dont play the pansy CP crutch PvP so CP wont have influence.

mobility again comes down to PvP, because snare are practically everywhere and stam poison will destroy you, not only that, but while you are sprinting, you are funneling away your stam and not fighting.
bonus round: most abilities with strong snares or roots are spammable from a range.

dodge+sprint cost again comes down to CP crutch mode. so thats 2 issues only solvable by investing CP.

heavy attacking often... in pvp... where you can be inturrupted in a split second. any semi competent PvPer will tell you throwing in heavy attacks while the enemy isn't CC'd will get you "rekt" as they call it, and rightfully so because it gives off this huge telegraph what your doing and it opens you up for a free debuff, no semi skilled player will ignore bashing that.

if this was PvE advice only, sure i'll take it, but if this was even a sly remark at PvP? i'm sorry but when 2 of the biggest issues are solved by investing into CP, you can bet everything else that doesnt depend on it will not suffer.

if werewolves were able to slot different abilities for different fights, sure, but we cant, because of the very narrowly focused skill set, weaknesses like being kited, easy to interrupt and burning resources shouldnt be so dominant.

x5 fortified brass x5 salvation (tho i'm currently working on transitioning into eternal hunt) 1 chudan (working on 2nd piece) and 1 pirate skeleton on a stam sorc.

the moment he transforms i'll either spend the time running or being burst down in 3-5 seconds.
on a good run i'll spend alot of time forcing my way through a zerg defiling them and fearing them to pieces.

There we have it, sry but without cp werewolf is not viable its that simpl. Without the cp assisting your self heals playing the werewolf Ina no cp environment requires a lot of experience in resource management.
1st for sustain use rousing roar to set them off balance then heavy attack them 1-2 times.(every 10 secs VERY IMPORTANT) Voala at least 75% off your stamina is back.
If you want decent self heals toss out brass and use pelinals aptitude. @dsalter
Also heavy armor is a must since werewolf synergizes simply to well with heavy to not use it plus the 8% extra healing really helps.
Go to a cp campaign as a werewolf pvp ing competitively is difficult enough without hindering yourself further by needing in a no cp environment

dsalter

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@dsalter How do you get "shut down really easily??" At least on my we I have 28. 5k HP, 49k Stam, 41k resistanc and 4.5k wd (Continious attack). My pelinals aptitude makes my heals strong af. Trust me you don't get shut down easily with those stats when you know what it doing. and the reason why ability costs are the highest in game, it's because the light attacks plus bleed do a lot of damage. Slow? Ever tried pushing down the joystick and sprinting? You'll be a lot faster when you do that... I can easily sustain my stamina in Werewolf Form with only 1.5k stamina.. My advice, heavy attack a lot more then you should have a lot less issues. To reduce the cost of breaking free or dodge rolls, invest at least 40 cp under warlord and tumbling. To make this short in all respects for your person, these mostly are L2P Issues that can be solved by asking a experienced werewolf player.

did you just assume my playstyle?

ok so "put CP points here", yeah, great idea, except one issue.
i dont play the pansy CP crutch PvP so CP wont have influence.

mobility again comes down to PvP, because snare are practically everywhere and stam poison will destroy you, not only that, but while you are sprinting, you are funneling away your stam and not fighting.
bonus round: most abilities with strong snares or roots are spammable from a range.

dodge+sprint cost again comes down to CP crutch mode. so thats 2 issues only solvable by investing CP.

heavy attacking often... in pvp... where you can be inturrupted in a split second. any semi competent PvPer will tell you throwing in heavy attacks while the enemy isn't CC'd will get you "rekt" as they call it, and rightfully so because it gives off this huge telegraph what your doing and it opens you up for a free debuff, no semi skilled player will ignore bashing that.

if this was PvE advice only, sure i'll take it, but if this was even a sly remark at PvP? i'm sorry but when 2 of the biggest issues are solved by investing into CP, you can bet everything else that doesnt depend on it will not suffer.

if werewolves were able to slot different abilities for different fights, sure, but we cant, because of the very narrowly focused skill set, weaknesses like being kited, easy to interrupt and burning resources shouldnt be so dominant.

x5 fortified brass x5 salvation (tho i'm currently working on transitioning into eternal hunt) 1 chudan (working on 2nd piece) and 1 pirate skeleton on a stam sorc.

the moment he transforms i'll either spend the time running or being burst down in 3-5 seconds.
on a good run i'll spend alot of time forcing my way through a zerg defiling them and fearing them to pieces.

There we have it, sry but without cp werewolf is not viable its that simpl. Without the cp assisting your self heals playing the werewolf Ina no cp environment requires a lot of experience in resource management.
1st for sustain use rousing roar to set them off balance then heavy attack them 1-2 times.(every 10 secs VERY IMPORTANT) Voala at least 75% off your stamina is back.
If you want decent self heals toss out brass and use pelinals aptitude. @dsalter
Also heavy armor is a must since werewolf synergizes simply to well with heavy to not use it plus the 8% extra healing really helps.
Go to a cp campaign as a werewolf pvp ing competitively is difficult enough without hindering yourself further by needing in a no cp environment

healing isnt a problem for me. hell i'm healing 1/4 of my hp as is, the issues are already stated, any problem that has to be cured with CP (crutch mode) is a still a problem.

IlCanis_LupuslI

@dsalter oh yes if you have problems surviving without a dedicated healer I reccomend claws if life's, it does desease damage so proccs defile aswell but only for 3 secs

dsalter

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@dsalter oh yes if you have problems surviving without a dedicated healer I reccomend claws if life's, it does desease damage so proccs defile aswell but only for 3 secs

claws of life is the superior morph anyways, adds more to total durability where as the other morph is mainly for pressuring and singling out healers

Qbiken

did you just assume my playstyle?

This one gave me a good laugh

ok so "put CP points here", yeah, great idea, except one issue.
i dont play the pansy CP crutch PvP so CP wont have influence.

It will be significantly harder to play werewolf in no-CP, and whether it´s crutch or not can be discussed. Playing solo on a werewolf is hard as it is in CP-enabled campaigns. I don´t know how your playstyle is but my best advice (unless you already do this) is to get yourself a small group with a purge-bot and/or snare-remover aka "rapid-bot". This advice goes for both CP and no-CP when playing as a werewolf. 1vX or solo is a nightmare as a werewolf. Sure you´ll manage 1v1 against most cases but outnumbered you´ve little to no tools to use a werewolf. Personally I´m fine with this since werewolfs becomes 10x times better in group compared to playing solo. For me that´s balance.

I also think this answer your part about mobility when playing werewolf
P.S Poisons need balancing I agree.

heavy attacking often... in pvp... where you can be inturrupted in a split second. any semi competent PvPer will tell you throwing in heavy attacks while the enemy isn't CC'd will get you "rekt" as they call it, and rightfully so because it gives off this huge telegraph what your doing and it opens you up for a free debuff, no semi skilled player will ignore bashing that.

You´ll be surprised how often you´ll be able to land that heavy attack, even against good players. Werewolfs heavy attack isn´t a channelling ability so it can´t be interrupted (from what you wrote this is the way I understood it, but correct me if I understood you wrong). Using Roar will give you 5 seconds of free off-balance on an enemy (assuming they´re not CC-immune). Using an heavy attack on those enemies in WW-form gives you 200% more stamina back. One or two heavy attacks is all you need. Now this is difficult when outnumbered, but once again, werewolf is really weak when outnumbered.

dsalter wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@dsalter oh yes if you have problems surviving without a dedicated healer I reccomend claws if life's, it does desease damage so proccs defile aswell but only for 3 secs

claws of life is the superior morph anyways, adds more to total durability where as the other morph is mainly for pressuring and singling out healers

In my experience claws of life is very weak in PvP. It´s also double-dipped by battle spirit (first 50% reduced damage and reduced heal), last time I checked.
Blobs said it was a gamechanger for his werewolf build. But if you took a closer look at the build he was using he literally had 0 other sources of incoming healing. So of course adding even 1 source of healing becomes a big deal.

P.S.S
I see in your signature that you´re on EU (PC perhaps??). If you want to group up and do some small-scale with werewolf (I mainly play CP, but can manage no-cp with some minor changes) it would be cool

IlCanis_LupuslI

And BTW as a werewolf kiting is not possible you either facetank the 3-4 people after building your char accordingly or you die. That's why claws of life is sooo sweet since the more people you hit, the higher the HoT ticks. And to landing the heavy attack : Rousing roar(cc) - - - > heavy attack then you'll have no issues landing them and the off balance proccs by the ability increases the stamina you get from the heavy attack by A LOT

IlCanis_LupuslI

@Qbiken I taught so aswk but CoL is a 1k heal per second per person( in cp pvp) you hit so expecially when outnumbered or solo it scales extremely well. And when your in a situation like that a 3-4k hot (on Average when you hit 3-4 people) can be a total game changer, for duels I definetly agree that Anguish is better. @dsalter Qbiken is a very good ww listen to his advice :-)

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@Qbiken I taught so aswk but CoL is a 1k heal per second per person( in cp pvp) you hit so expecially when outnumbered or solo it scales extremely well. And when your in a situation like that a 3-4k hot (on Average when you hit 3-4 people) can be a total game changer, for duels I definetly agree that Anguish is better. @dsalter Qbiken is a very good ww listen to his advice :-)

I really need to learn how to record my gameplay.........xD

IlCanis_LupuslI

About snares = they got nerfed last patch, since then I haven't felt them at all. If there is a mag dk prrmarooting you, that means in return he's close enough to kill. I've built my ww to take quite a beating (41k spell resistance, 39 physical) so usually Dont kite Im more the stand your ground kinda person :-)

DuskMarine

Aznox wrote: »

I agree that Werewolf is mostly fine on live when used optimally, and probably only needs some bugfix and a change to the morphs that are never used.

Summerset will also add a lot of things to explore with Werewolf, and unless they break our light attack damage we should remain viable in PvP.

People who suggest complete redesign or major changes should spend a bit more time to learn current Werewolf strength and potential, we can help if needed.

ive been around since this game started so i know how strong werewolf was and currently is. and compared to vampire werewolf is the most worthless choice of the 2. no use in pve and unless you feel like having an adrenaline run in pvp theres no use in using it there either(as stated before poison puts werewolves down quickly). with the current state of werewolf it needs a complete overhaul to get it on par with vampire or nobodies gonna actually choose it. there are way more vampires in this game than there are werewolves due to how useless werewolf is over vampires. what made werewolf completely useless is the fact that they made the stamina recovery only obtainable as long as you have the transformation slotted that killed werewolf. without the just standing stamina recovery werewolf didnt have anything to stand on as the transformation itself held no value in pve whatsoever and pvp people transitioned into vampire more due to the points of you gainned standing both stamina and magicka recovery as well as based on health major protection. werewolf has been nerfed below the floor and 6 feet under in its now currently nailing coffin. in the current state of pvp werewolf can be permanently snared and lethal arrow poison injection spammed into the ground, fg abilities destroy werewolves and if you think your gonna take on anything stamina with a decent chunk of cp as a werewolf your going on a suicide mission cause they carry poison galore and almost everyone runs dawnbreaker that plays stamina. so currently in werewolfs current state yes it does need a rework claiming it doesnt means you just want to see a great potential filled skill line put to death.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Well about DB..... Trust me when you have 38k resistance DB only does 5k max far from completely destroying me. The only thing which is dangerous is lethal arrow only when fighting outnumbered and only because of the defile something the werewolf is vounerable to due to limited healings....

DuskMarine

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Well about DB..... Trust me when you have 38k resistance DB only does 5k max far from completely destroying me. The only thing which is dangerous is lethal arrow only when fighting outnumbered and only because of the defile something the werewolf is vounerable to due to limited healings....

i just want a real reason to play werewolf cause im a pver and pvper but i sit mostly in pve. but werewolf to me seems useless in both over vampire. i want it to be somewhat useful to the point i can actually use it versus what vampire gives which is clearly superior.

Koolio

DuskMarine wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I agree that Werewolf is mostly fine on live when used optimally, and probably only needs some bugfix and a change to the morphs that are never used.

Summerset will also add a lot of things to explore with Werewolf, and unless they break our light attack damage we should remain viable in PvP.

People who suggest complete redesign or major changes should spend a bit more time to learn current Werewolf strength and potential, we can help if needed.

ive been around since this game started so i know how strong werewolf was and currently is. and compared to vampire werewolf is the most worthless choice of the 2. no use in pve and unless you feel like having an adrenaline run in pvp theres no use in using it there either(as stated before poison puts werewolves down quickly). with the current state of werewolf it needs a complete overhaul to get it on par with vampire or nobodies gonna actually choose it. there are way more vampires in this game than there are werewolves due to how useless werewolf is over vampires. what made werewolf completely useless is the fact that they made the stamina recovery only obtainable as long as you have the transformation slotted that killed werewolf. without the just standing stamina recovery werewolf didnt have anything to stand on as the transformation itself held no value in pve whatsoever and pvp people transitioned into vampire more due to the points of you gainned standing both stamina and magicka recovery as well as based on health major protection. werewolf has been nerfed below the floor and 6 feet under in its now currently nailing coffin. in the current state of pvp werewolf can be permanently snared and lethal arrow poison injection spammed into the ground, fg abilities destroy werewolves and if you think your gonna take on anything stamina with a decent chunk of cp as a werewolf your going on a suicide mission cause they carry poison galore and almost everyone runs dawnbreaker that plays stamina. so currently in werewolfs current state yes it does need a rework claiming it doesnt means you just want to see a great potential filled skill line put to death.

Sorry for the awful editing. Didn’t have the time but threw clips together.

The first 5mins of this clip shows that werewolves aren’t in a very bad shape on live. Just a few bug fixes and tweaks and it will still be great. This is from the last two days and is now a normal ordeal for our guild.

https://youtu.be/fHDtlaseuW0

Marginis

It is a bit niche right now, but is it really better to buff it so people want it nerfed and it becomes even more niche? I like how there are no downsides, but a small upside for niche play - it differentiates it from vampires. There are other possible solutions though, like if they added another skill line that gives small upsides with no major downsides, and then made werewolf a bigger buff for stamina builds while giving it some downsides, where vampire can stay how it is.

This is all saying by the way that as a werewolf, it's just an extra skill line, which you can turn on and off, so you don't need to have the downsides if you don't want, whereas with vampires you have the downsides and upsides active all the time, and you are unable to turn them on and off on a whim. The skill line I'm suggesting to add would be something like a dawnguard skill line (something like that, anyway - it would have to differentiate itself from the fighter's guild line, and be exclusive, so you wouldn't be able to take part while still being a vampire or werewolf).

DuskMarine

Marginis wrote: »

It is a bit niche right now, but is it really better to buff it so people want it nerfed and it becomes even more niche? I like how there are no downsides, but a small upside for niche play - it differentiates it from vampires. There are other possible solutions though, like if they added another skill line that gives small upsides with no major downsides, and then made werewolf a bigger buff for stamina builds while giving it some downsides, where vampire can stay how it is.

This is all saying by the way that as a werewolf, it's just an extra skill line, which you can turn on and off, so you don't need to have the downsides if you don't want, whereas with vampires you have the downsides and upsides active all the time, and you are unable to turn them on and off on a whim. The skill line I'm suggesting to add would be something like a dawnguard skill line (something like that, anyway - it would have to differentiate itself from the fighter's guild line, and be exclusive, so you wouldn't be able to take part while still being a vampire or werewolf).

the problem im having is there is nothing special about werewolf that would make me choose it over vampire. the fire damage is miniscule and the undeath passive helps counter everything that could hurt it. werewolf has none of that and ill stand by my guns that werewolf is 100% useless in pve and pvp because vampire is bis practically everywhere. but the dawnguard thing would be fairly nice as we dont really have a skill line that promotes staying human as fighters guild really doesnt give anything to someone not wanting to be a vampire or werewolf. plus a dawnguard skill line would likely be very useful in pve as well due to the factor that trials are full of daedra or undead of some kind.

Chrlynsch

DuskMarine wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

It is a bit niche right now, but is it really better to buff it so people want it nerfed and it becomes even more niche? I like how there are no downsides, but a small upside for niche play - it differentiates it from vampires. There are other possible solutions though, like if they added another skill line that gives small upsides with no major downsides, and then made werewolf a bigger buff for stamina builds while giving it some downsides, where vampire can stay how it is.

This is all saying by the way that as a werewolf, it's just an extra skill line, which you can turn on and off, so you don't need to have the downsides if you don't want, whereas with vampires you have the downsides and upsides active all the time, and you are unable to turn them on and off on a whim. The skill line I'm suggesting to add would be something like a dawnguard skill line (something like that, anyway - it would have to differentiate itself from the fighter's guild line, and be exclusive, so you wouldn't be able to take part while still being a vampire or werewolf).

the problem im having is there is nothing special about werewolf that would make me choose it over vampire. the fire damage is miniscule and the undeath passive helps counter everything that could hurt it. werewolf has none of that and ill stand by my guns that werewolf is 100% useless in pve and pvp because vampire is bis practically everywhere. but the dawnguard thing would be fairly nice as we dont really have a skill line that promotes staying human as fighters guild really doesnt give anything to someone not wanting to be a vampire or werewolf. plus a dawnguard skill line would likely be very useful in pve as well due to the factor that trials are full of daedra or undead of some kind.

When you're a Werewolf
You're a Werewolf all the way
From your first devoured elf
To your last dyin' day.

When you're a Werewolf,
Let them do what they can,
You got brothers around,
You're a half Beastman!
You're never alone,
You're never disconnected!
You're home with your own
When company's expected,
You're well protected!

Then you're a Werewolf
With a capital W,
You're better than yourself
Hircine guides you
When you're a Werewolf,
Beast through and through
A Werewolf!

GallantGuardian

Last time i tried wolf form they didnt let you do pick ups in wolf form.... i say let us do pick ups to downed players.. and allow the pick up to count towards our devour