Why Deep Fissure should continue to stun

HalfEatenCornea

Deep Fissure (Scorch morph): This morph no longer stuns the closest enemy hit. It now applies Major Breach to all enemies hit for 5 seconds.
Developer Comments:
Spoiler
In the same vein that snare abilities should either be short and powerful or long and weak, abilities should be low damage and CC, or high damage and no CC.

The developer comment is interesting because there are other abilities that are getting far more use that are also hard hitting ccs. Dizzy swing is a hard hitting cc that has a short channel but can be chained in succession much quicker than deep fissure. Not saying dizzy swing doesn't have counter play, there is a telegraph that you can block, just like deep fissure. These abilities are balanced because they both give the opponent time to react.

Incap, although an ultimate and even without bloodspawn and aslyum 2h ulti gen, is up very regularly and is the definition of a hard hitting cc. Incap also adds a damage amplifer and defile. I guess deep fissure is stronger than incap in Zos' eyes because deep fissure is getting nerfed meanwhile incap goes untouched.

Deep fissure has a very obvious animation and gives the other player plenty of time to do one of the following: move out of the way the warden is facing, root the warden, stun the warden, or block which will stop the cc but not the damage. There is plenty of counterplay so it makes sense wardens are rewarded with a stun when it lands.

The big issue with this change is it will absolutely destroy the warden's ability to solo. Whether 1v1 or 1vX that stun was the only thing magicka warden had going for it. It made it feel unique from the much stronger stamina warden. I dont want to be forced into spamming flame reach like sorcs that lost their frags. At that point, I would just play my sorc. Its stronger than magden right now in my opinion.

This is a huge nerf to small scale and solo magdens. They seemed to get nerfed every patch.
Recent Magden nerfs: dodgeable birds (pretty much all magden damage is easily avoidable now, especially if stam), fetcher scaling off thaum instead of master at arms (pvp nerf, magden is a direct dmg class) And once befoul inevitably gets nerfed corrupting pollen will take a huge hit.

Magden needs some love as evidenced by how unpopular it is, and this nerf will just bury it. First it was magplar shard stun, then sorc frag stun, now its magdens turn except we never had our time to shine.

Please stop taking away class ability stuns. Class abilities are way more fun and interesting than ubiquitous weapon/guild skill line abilities.

While im here im just going to throw it out there that if you get hit with deep fissure, the next bird should be undodgeable. Just a thought!

lazerlaz

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Micah_Bayer

lazerlaz wrote: »

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Technically incap is not an ultimate because in less than 4 seconds you have it up again.

HalfEatenCornea

lazerlaz wrote: »

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

between cloak bloodspawn and aslyum 2h, incap stun comes out so frequently its basically a spammable. I main mageblade and abuse incap, im just being honest. Buff soul harvest tho

Vaoh

lazerlaz wrote: »

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

....

Mihael

lazerlaz wrote: »

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Incap cost 70 ultimate... it’s essentially a spammable because of nb passives and asylum 2h, plus if they run potion reduction glyphs next patch it will be up even more, no ultimate or ability does what incap does for its cost not even close

HalfEatenCornea

I should have known mentioning incap would get the thread derailed. Forget i mentioned it. The balance of incap has no bearing on whether or not zos should nerf magden to the ground by taking away its stun.

Torbschka

Vaoh wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

....

Wow, so, this is how u discredit yourself lol

Rohamad_Ali

I hate when deep fissures stuns me , hate it !

But I don't want it nerfed. Keep the stun and I'll control my salt.

Hutch679

lazerlaz wrote: »

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Deep fissure isn't spammable. Of you spam it, it would never actually deal damage.

ak_pvp

Deep fissure is a telegraphed delayed and avoidable damage. It should stun.

Gilvoth

there are too many snares and roots and stunns in eso.
people getting into fights and they cannot move and cannot even react to fights.


thats not a fair fight, thats just abusive.

HalfEatenCornea

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

there are too many snares and roots and stunns in eso.
people getting into fights and they cannot move and cannot even react to fights.


thats not a fair fight, thats just abusive.

snares are out of control, but for cc's you can break them and have a long period of immunity. the solution isnt to destroy class stuns. meanwhile they add in stuff like tactician that makes everything seem to stun

Ron_Burgundy_79

ak_pvp wrote: »

Deep fissure is a telegraphed delayed and avoidable damage. It should stun.

Agreed. It's similar to dizzying. Last time I checked, dizzying still cc's.

xaraan

The bigger thing for me is the debuff. I'm glad to see the magicka morph get the magicka breach and the stam keep the stam breach, but there is no reason the time needed to be shortened by that much.

How long does the armor debuff in stamDK last? How long do the couple of armor debuffs in the NB line last? etc. and those are not dodge-able to boot.

It should keep the amount of time it had before (and personally I think both versions should give both debuffs b/c it's also a good tool for pve tanking that gives something unique to Wardens).

Personally, I could give or take the knockdown - though I think both versions should have it, it's already dodge-able (but they should fix it so it doesn't work on different levels vs the target). I do see why some pvp players like it, but don't think losing it is tragic. What is tragic is that the Warden just does not have a lot of good offensive tools period compared to other classes. You could try to argue that undodge-able birds and shalk knockdown were OP - but they really are not. But what they were were the only big reasons to use a Warden as an offensive build in PvP (and there have never really been reasons to run one in top end PvE).

The class needs a lot of work. If we are going to listen to casuals that can't deal with a knock down or an undodge-able ability - fine. But what else are you going to give Warden to make up for it? (Making the bird faster didn't do it) - How about make the bird scale up damage in execute? Maybe change up the swarm to be an AoE DoT instead of single target?

And even some other areas need some attention: Their polar wind self heal is one of the weakest tanks elf heals outside of Templar not even having one: the buff from 10-12% is nothing, should have gone to at least 20% to be useful. I'll continue to not even use it as a tank, there are better heals that are cheaper on my warden tank.

And of course the fact that the matching element to this class was turned into a defensive tool instead of the matching elements to DK and Sorc (Fire and Lightning) being great for DPS - Ice is horrible. Whoever is pushing the whole ice staff tanking thing: calm down. There are better ways to go about it and they've been suggested dozens of times on the forums, but turn the base Ice staff into a better offensive tool.

Mihael

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Deep fissure is a telegraphed delayed and avoidable damage. It should stun.

Agreed. It's similar to dizzying. Last time I checked, dizzying still cc's.

^^

casparian

So I think it's safe to conclude Dizzying will lose its stun in the next PTS build.

HalfEatenCornea

[quote="xaraan;c-5058389"

Personally, I could give or take the knockdown - though I think both versions should have it.[/quote]

i 100 percent agree with everything u said except this. I really like how currently the stamina version encourages you to use weapon line skills like reverb or dizzy in conjunction with sub assault because its consistent with how stamina has always used weapon lines to fill out whatever their class is missing. If sub assaulted stunned that would be a buff to stamden. Prolly doesnt need a buff xD

And for deep fissure, sure when u are in large scale pvp deep fissure the breach looks attractive because it only stuns one person and often times no one even gets stunned because someone with cc immunity absorbs it. When solo or in small groups this stun was what made a magden feel like it had its own identity.

I will agree that that deep fissure stunning people through walls/terrain or on a weird z axis needs to be fixed.

Mihael

the sad thing is mag templar is in a terrible state for pvp and even they have 2 different options for cc while mag wardens had their only option taken away, this just forces us to run a staff or sacrifice a reliable cc which is crucial for fighting any half decent player

xaraan

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

[quote="xaraan;c-5058389"

Personally, I could give or take the knockdown - though I think both versions should have it.

i 100 percent agree with everything u said except this. I really like how currently the stamina version encourages you to use weapon line skills like reverb or dizzy in conjunction with sub assault because its consistent with how stamina has always used weapon lines to fill out whatever their class is missing. If sub assaulted stunned that would be a buff to stamden. Prolly doesnt need a buff xD

And for deep fissure, sure when u are in large scale pvp deep fissure the breach looks attractive because it only stuns one person and often times no one even gets stunned because someone with cc immunity absorbs it. When solo or in small groups this stun was what made a magden feel like it had its own identity.

I will agree that that deep fissure stunning people through walls/terrain or on a weird z axis needs to be fixed.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm fine with it either way really. But I dont' think it would be OP if it was included, esp with it being completely avoidable - esp with a time delay from cast and having other counters in the game to CC already. As someone that mostly small manned vs zergs in pvp, I'm used to dealing with mulitple CCs and debuffs all coming in at once, it's manage-able. But I also dont' think it's crazy to say it should have either the knock down or debuff and as someone that both pvps and pve's, I'd rather have the debuff ( but have it be the duration it is now), it would be more useful in more situations in both areas from my point of view.

HalfEatenCornea

xaraan wrote: »

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

[quote="xaraan;c-5058389"

Personally, I could give or take the knockdown - though I think both versions should have it.

i 100 percent agree with everything u said except this. I really like how currently the stamina version encourages you to use weapon line skills like reverb or dizzy in conjunction with sub assault because its consistent with how stamina has always used weapon lines to fill out whatever their class is missing. If sub assaulted stunned that would be a buff to stamden. Prolly doesnt need a buff xD

And for deep fissure, sure when u are in large scale pvp deep fissure the breach looks attractive because it only stuns one person and often times no one even gets stunned because someone with cc immunity absorbs it. When solo or in small groups this stun was what made a magden feel like it had its own identity.

I will agree that that deep fissure stunning people through walls/terrain or on a weird z axis needs to be fixed.

Yeah, I'm fine with it either way really. But I dont' think it would be OP if it was included, esp with it being completely avoidable - esp with a time delay from cast and having other counters in the game to CC already. As someone that mostly small manned vs zergs in pvp, I'm used to dealing with mulitple CCs and debuffs all coming in at once, it's manage-able. But I also dont' think it's crazy to say it should have either the knock down or debuff and as someone that both pvps and pve's, I'd rather have the debuff ( but have it be the duration it is now), it would be more useful in more situations in both areas from my point of view.[/quote]

good point. zos could do us magdens a solid and just let it stun and apply breach. sounds like a profitable change, no pun intended

NyassaV

It's funny they nerf magWarden to a point where it sucks but stam warden gets a slap on the wrist

Mihael

NyassaV wrote: »

It's funny they nerf magWarden to a point where it sucks but stam warden gets a slap on the wrist

Anazasi

about the same reason Templars Blazing Spears should have its disorient.

ascan7

I would be fine with removing the stun they gave us a compensating buff for magdens. They are seriously underperforming

Ron_Burgundy_79

Anazasi wrote: »

about the same reason Templars Blazing Spears should have its disorient.

I miss the old blazing spear stun.

Huggelz

lazerlaz wrote: »

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Your an idiot, its an ultimate with the grand cost of 70, i could probably make a build that uses incap faster then you can use a shalk... Removing the stun off of shalk forces a magden to use flame clench if it wants a reliable CC, but this doesn't work because it will add another skill to their burst which will give it the same problem the magsorc has now, your burst becomes awkward and alot harder to pull off successfully. Flame clench will also make the shalk miss quite often since you will clench them out of the shalk. If they want to remove the CC from shalk they should at least compensate with a different CC that will freeze people in place like northern storm, next patch magden will be even more worthless then they are now for solo and small scale, literally nobody will play the class in fights where you already have the disadvantage of less numbers.

MLGProPlayer

ZOS' official position is that they don't want you to play warden in PvP or PvE.

IZZEFlameLash

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

there are too many snares and roots and stunns in eso.
people getting into fights and they cannot move and cannot even react to fights.


thats not a fair fight, thats just abusive.

Yes which is what the class you almost always come running in defense of... NBs. It aoe snares, stuns at will and even has roots. To top it all, it is very unpredictable when the burst will come unlike Warden's "smash the ground, effect shows on feet" telegraph. Deep Fissure should keep the stun.

Joy_Division

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

there are too many snares and roots and stunns in eso.
people getting into fights and they cannot move and cannot even react to fights.


thats not a fair fight, thats just abusive.

Your pet class is the worst abuser of all those things that you say there are too many of.

NightbladeMechanics

I don't believe that shalk necessarily needs its cc back.

However, taking away shalk's cc leaves warden with no non-ult class cc. I believe at least magden needs a hard cc added elsewhere in the kit. Maybe even stamden too, in order to ameliorate some of its reliance on snb.

I also believe that magden's cc should have a delay of either 4 seconds or 2 seconds in order to time well with shalk burst combos no matter where it is added into the kit. Regardless of the delay, the cc needs to have a noticeable telegraph with how strong warden burst can be.

Overall, the class will hurt without a compensatory cc buff somewhere now that shalk's is removed. These are my opinions.