Why Deep Fissure should continue to stun

Waffennacht

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't believe that shalk necessarily needs its cc back.

However, taking away shalk's cc leaves warden with no non-ult class cc. I believe at least magden needs a hard cc added elsewhere in the kit. Maybe even stamden too, in order to ameliorate some of its reliance on snb.

I also believe that magden's cc should have a delay of either 4 seconds or 2 seconds in order to time well with shalk burst combos no matter where it is added into the kit. Regardless of the delay, the cc needs to have a noticeable telegraph with how strong warden burst can be.

Overall, the class will hurt without a compensatory cc buff somewhere now that shalk's is removed. These are my opinions.

That's like exactly what I thought was gonna happen.

Nerp

Vovik

Magden needs a stun. Everyone already rolls stamden...

leb91han

I decided to try magicka warden so im leveling one in this double exp anniversary and im loving it please dont take away the stun from the class you will destroy it just like you did to my mag sorc with frag . Forcing flame reach as a stun is so wrong and ugly and boring and dont have a place on the bars.

Thogard

Patch notes focused on a theme rather than balance will lead to unbalanced PvE and PvP.

Magden is universally accepted to be in so much trouble at the moment that I’d be amazed if it doesn’t receive a stun or a KB.

sneakymitchell

lazerlaz wrote: »

Stuns are extremely powerful and should cost a lot to produce.

Incap is a ULTIMATE. I repeat, AN ULTIMATE. Stop comparing regular class spammable abilities to an ULTIMATE and your life will change.

And yes, you're correct, in it's current state deep fissure is way stronger than incap for a non ultimate.

Incap still cheap even the increase cost for it. If the potion ulti passive goes down to 15. At least is a balance if either cost increase or pot ulti decrease.

Saturn

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

HalfEatenCornea

Saturn wrote: »

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

Deep fissure has a very obvious telegraph and delay. Its also an aimed ability, not a targeted ability. Aimed abilities with ample counterplay should be rewarding.

Vovik

Saturn wrote: »

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

If you can't see deep fissure because you're in the "heat of the moment" I doubt you can see anything else either as deep fissure has one of the most obvious animations in-game.

Saturn

Vovik wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

If you can't see deep fissure because you're in the "heat of the moment" I doubt you can see anything else either as deep fissure has one of the most obvious animations in-game.

".. unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet..." My problem is with the effect, which I can rarely see, so I think you misread. It's one of many effects that sometimes don't show up for me. The animation is obvious, but if you don't see it (at least in my case) I have no way of knowing if it's about to pop on me, since I can't see the effect more than half the time.

Joy_Division

Saturn wrote: »

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

It's one thing to abstractly say 'will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone," it's another to specifically demonstrate just how they will be able to do that.

No CC, no execute, all dodgeable skills, damage skills that do not provide useful secondary status effects like snare or defile. Every magicka warden who wants to PvP is going to type "LF experienced DSA group" because they're so desperate to get a Master's destro just so they can use clench. The sad part is they won tbe anywhere near as effective as a sorc because they don;t have curse or fury.

People can't be afraid of other's classes skills and abiltieis that are good. Otherwise we're all just playing boring overnerfed classes.

Ludof

I will definitely play my magsorc.

See you Magden!!

HalfEatenCornea

Saturn wrote: »

Vovik wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

I think it was good it was nerfed. Wardens will still be able to do builds that rely on several attacks stacking to instagib someone, they just won't have their stun. I don't agree that it's obvious when the ability is active, unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet, which can be hard in the heat of the moment, when you are often look elsewhere. Even more so if you have low graphics or effects turned down.
Most abilities that do as much damage and stun usually have some obvious animation (not including ultimates like Incap or Dawnbreaker, but they are ultimates, which is not really the same), so it was clear that Deep Fissure needed a tweak. I think of all the nerfs with Summerset this is one of the only few I actually appreciate.
This comes from a standpoint of both playing magicka warden and also fighting them.

If you can't see deep fissure because you're in the "heat of the moment" I doubt you can see anything else either as deep fissure has one of the most obvious animations in-game.

".. unless you spot the hand wave or the effect by the caster's feet..." My problem is with the effect, which I can rarely see, so I think you misread. It's one of many effects that sometimes don't show up for me. The animation is obvious, but if you don't see it (at least in my case) I have no way of knowing if it's about to pop on me, since I can't see the effect more than half the time.

zos could always give it a red aoe indicator like proxy det

Hutch679

This thread is an uphill battle.

HalfEatenCornea

Hutch679 wrote: »

This thread is an uphill battle.

if magden doesnt get anything back it will be so sad. sorc got rune cage, templar got total dark. they are left with 0 class stuns.

NyassaV

I can survive a mag warden's burst as it is but not always a stam warden (I'm in light armor, squishly melee magicka NB). So taking away the stun doesn't do jack

HalfEatenCornea

Ludof wrote: »

I will definitely play my magsorc.

See you Magden!!

if we are forced onto flame reach im sure many will do the same. thats all cyrodil needs, more flame reach spam

sluice

It always baffles me when I see that they decided, once more, to nerf (arguably) the worst class in PvP (Magicka Warden)... while it's stamina counterpart (who, on the other hand, is arguably the strongest) remains unchanged.

The Magden will now, more than ever feel like a Sorc with :
-Less burst
-Weaker shield
-No execute
-No stun




On one side they are hoping summerset will bring build diversity (2H and staffs counting as two slots bonus, jewelry crafting, etc.) And then, they pretty much force another class to use Destructive Touch.

I think we see this skill enough as it is as almost all Magsorc and destro mageblade are using this skill.

Bravo.

HalfEatenCornea

sluice wrote: »

It always baffles me when I see that they decided, once more, to nerf (arguably) the worst class in PvP (Magicka Warden)... while it's stamina counterpart (who, on the other hand, is arguably the strongest) remains unchanged.

The Magden will now, more than ever feel like a Sorc with :
-Less burst
-Weaker shield
-No execute
-No stun




On one side they are hoping summerset will bring build diversity (2H and staffs counting as two slots bonus, jewelry crafting, etc.) And then, they pretty much force another class to use Destructive Touch.

I think we see this skill enough as it is as almost all Magsorc and destro mageblade are using this skill.

Bravo.

ill be really dissappointed if theres no compensation buff for magden like sorc got with rune cage

HalfEatenCornea

after testing on the pts, the change to the bird projectile speed is also a nerf in pvp because it no longers lines up with shalk landing.

dodgehopper_ESO

I agree. Warden's slow removal of CC is the same BS that happened to Templar. I knew Warden was the new Templar when it was released, and I'm seeing the same things done to Templars done to Warden. Stop taking away CC from classes that barely have decent cc to begin with. This game relies on it far too much in the pvp realm, or in tanking.

Vaoh

It doesn’t even have to be Deep Fissure. There just needs to be at least one stun.

HalfEatenCornea

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree. Warden's slow removal of CC is the same BS that happened to Templar. I knew Warden was the new Templar when it was released, and I'm seeing the same things done to Templars done to Warden. Stop taking away CC from classes that barely have decent cc to begin with. This game relies on it far too much in the pvp realm, or in tanking.

the sad part is it prolly wont get changed because magden is so unpopular. if they tried to take away dragonknights only cc's the community uproar would be everywhere.

HalfEatenCornea

Vaoh wrote: »

It doesn’t even have to be Deep Fissure. There just needs to be at least one stun.

the kit is clunky enough as it is, deep fissure allows for some great combos that wont exist without that stun. any other stun they give warden will be a buff to stamden if they arent careful so it would have to be on magicka morph. deep fissure was a balanced and aimable stun, didnt need any adjustment to begin with.

Vaoh

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It doesn’t even have to be Deep Fissure. There just needs to be at least one stun.

the kit is clunky enough as it is, deep fissure allows for some great combos that wont exist without that stun. any other stun they give warden will be a buff to stamden if they arent careful so it would have to be on magicka morph. deep fissure was a balanced and aimable stun, didnt need any adjustment to begin with.

Not saying it shouldn’t be Deep Fissure that stuns - it’s just that the main issue atm is due to the fact that zero stuns exist within the Warden toolkit. I made many suggestions (as did everyone else) in the Warden balance thread but ZOS changes nothing

Waffennacht

There's 0 reason to use Magden in PvP over any other class

ak_pvp

Waffennacht wrote: »

There's 0 reason to use Magden in PvP over any other class

Its decentish this patch, but yeah it takes a hit next patch. Probably still better than a templar.

dodgehopper_ESO

HalfEatenCornea wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree. Warden's slow removal of CC is the same BS that happened to Templar. I knew Warden was the new Templar when it was released, and I'm seeing the same things done to Templars done to Warden. Stop taking away CC from classes that barely have decent cc to begin with. This game relies on it far too much in the pvp realm, or in tanking.

the sad part is it prolly wont get changed because magden is so unpopular. if they tried to take away dragonknights only cc's the community uproar would be everywhere.

I love playing my MagDen. I got Emperor with my MagDen. I never thought it was OP though. The damage was moderate but it played Tankily. I personally feel that MagDen = Tank. Its fun to play but the big question for MagDen is how to get burst. I never resolved that question and I personally plan to build more for Tanking going forward. This still leaves the problem with them gutting cc's with the class because Tanking does require proper tanking and I do believe that all classes should functionally be capable of playing all Roles given the marketing they pushed forward and continue to push. I believe that is their goal but gutting CC from Templar and Warden mistakenly takes away the capacity to do so.

Minno

Should the stun exist in a different ability?

HalfEatenCornea

Minno wrote: »

Should the stun exist in a different ability?

if they decide to do that i really hope it happens in summerset. Zos shouldnt take away deep fissure stun without giving it back somewhere else first

Tryxus

Minno wrote: »

Should the stun exist in a different ability?

It would be better if it stayed on Deep Fissure. Because a stun on a delayed ability is invaluable to have on a class with a limited toolkit and a slow offense since it not only enables us to setup said offense but can also be used to cancel out an opponent's with a surprise stun